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Will Iraq Delay Elections?

by TChris

Five members of the U.S. military were killed today in three separate attacks in Iraq. Additional bloodshed included the assassination of a political figure.

The Baghdad governor, Ali al-Haidari, was attacked and killed in a roadside ambush after he left his home, the Interior Ministry said. The Associated Press reported that six of the governor's bodyguards were also killed. He was the most senior official assassinated in the city since the head of the Governing Council was killed last May.

Iraq's interim president, Ghazi al-Yawar, questions whether elections should be held on January 30, given the lack of security. Iraq's defense minister, among others, has asked the same question. The White House denies that Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is considering postponement of the election, despite his decision to telephone President Bush to discuss "the many impediments still facing the country as it heads toward elections."

But some officials in Washington and in Iraq interpreted the telephone call as a sign that Dr. Allawi, who is clearly concerned his own party could be headed to defeat if the election is held on schedule, may be preparing the ground to make the case for delay to Mr. Bush.

Of course, if Iraq is truly sovereign, as President Bush claims, the decision to postpone the election does not require his approval.

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    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 09:11:00 AM EST
    I'm sure that whatever decision is made, it will be presented as though Allawi actually made. Our spavined press, which rarely looks for reasons, will report it that way and the "problem" will have been finessed (if that's the word to use about anything the Bush administration does)

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 09:16:31 AM EST
    according to this post by Chris Allbritton the elections can not be delayed. This is a very interesting post because he also says that the conventional wisdom that the Sistani ticket is going to win big may be wrong because there are many Shiites who want a secular government. Therefore Allawi might do better than originally expected which of course would be good news for the US. Its hard to see how anything good and stable is going to come of the elections, but we'll just have to see.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#3)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:11:06 AM EST
    These folks will simply be writing a constitution; remind me, how many votes did Jefferson get?

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:22:20 AM EST
    I hope they delay. The only thing worse than no election is an illegitimate one.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:22:48 AM EST
    These folks will simply be writing a constitution remind me, how many votes did Jefferson get? Gee why didn't I think of that. The US in the 1700's is just like the Iraq of today. Well the issue will be if the elcetion is seen as illegitimate then the constitution will be seen as such. Secondly, writing a constitution without the Sunnis may in itself be a problem if their interests are completely ignored. If the Shiite majority writes the consitution in such a way that tries to take away Kurdish autonomy you are going to have trouble. And some people will view the election and subsequent constitution if done during occupation to be unrepresentative a product of the occupation. The latest data suggest that less than 6% have registered to vote and the names of the lists have not yet been released. The people on the lists are afraid of being killed.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:24:23 AM EST
    et al - If the US could hold an election in the middle of a Civil War, then Iraq can hold one while being attacked by terrorists. Delays will only embolden the terrorists. It should be done on schedule. Pigglewiggle - An excellent point.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:26:48 AM EST
    Hope I am wrong, But I think Bush will go-ahead with the political Election And it will become a joke. If he stop's the election he will also become a joke, so go on with it and see. remember people make a nation and a culture not governments. and people make war not government's. without help from the people a government can't do nothing, but with help from the people a government can do anything it wants to do.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:33:53 AM EST
    et al - If the US could hold an election in the middle of a Civil War, then Iraq can hold one while being attacked by terrorists. This stupid comparison has been debunked a number of times. There is no comparison. The US had a functioning governmental structure in place for a long time. The Iraqis are having an election to elect people that will establish the governmental structure. Leaving out entire groups of people may have a negative effect because the resultant constiution may not represent their interests. If a group feels like they got a "bad deal" wrt their interests they will blame it on the US and its occupation and consider the resultant constitution illegitimate. And finally the US was not under occupation by a foreign entity. So other than those issues its exactly the same. You may have an election in which some votes are cast. That will be meaningless if it is viewed by a majority to be illegitimate.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#9)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:33:56 AM EST
    “Gee why didn't I think of that. The US in the 1700's is just like the Iraq of today.” The next time you accuse me of being condescending I’m going to dig through the TL archives and show you what arrogance is, you are a real hypocrite. The point was, democratically elected representatives didn’t draft our constitution; has any been drafted this way? These are incremental measures, the drafters will be gone long before the US.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:48:23 AM EST
    SD - It appears that you do not want the effort to establish a democracy to succeed, as it would validate Bush's strategy. So everything is wait, etc., etc. The point re the Civil War is that elections can be held in the midst of turmoil and trouble, and succeed. And you fail to note that it is the US that is supporting the election. What should we do, withdraw and let the terrorists win?

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:52:07 AM EST
    PPJ, very good!! all sorts of straw men.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 10:58:51 AM EST
    In El Salvador, your buddies the FMLN boycotted an election. Didn't want to have anything to do with it. Wanted to keep others from voting. The election happened and you'd have a hard time finding anybody who remembered the boycott. El Salvador goes on as if the boycott was a non-event, which it was, in reality. Election boycotts are like kids holding their breath. They only work if the grownups are impressed. Having lefties hyperventilating about it is useless. The Sunnis have no group interest, although the memories of their treatment of the rest of the Iraqis might be considered to be that in a kind of reverse. How does the constitution keep the Shia from taking vengeance? IMO, it would be better if the constitution dealt with people as individuals instead of by membership in some kind of group or another.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 11:13:28 AM EST
    Kurdistan Satellite television reported on 3 January that the Kurdish and Iraqi parliaments will call on the Council of Ministers and the president to postpone the elections due to the unfavorable conditions in the country. That request is due to be made at the interim National Assembly's next meeting in Baghdad, the station reported. Meanwhile, interim Defense Minister Hazim al-Sha'lan proposed in Cairo on 3 January that national elections be postponed by a few weeks in order to allow Sunnis to organize should they agree to participate in elections. It is unclear whether al-Sha'lan's proposal was an official proposal floated by the interim government or a personal one. For now, there is no official word on whether a delay will take place.
    Link

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 11:28:46 AM EST
    I believe that the violence will be worse after the election. I'll be watching.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 11:33:34 AM EST
    I think they should happen on schedule mostly because we have stated a 1000 times that they would and it would be a token victory for those opposed to them. That said, it is a shame that the argument has to be such as it would be a much better situation if people could feel safe going to the polls and that each party had an equitable opportunity to run. In for a penny, in for a pound.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 11:34:41 AM EST
    the violence will be over soon...as I recall some General said "we have broken the back of the insurgency"

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 11:59:44 AM EST
    as I recall some General said "we have broken the back of the insurgency" I'm sure Ali al-Haidari is relieved to hear that.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#18)
    by cp on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 12:11:10 PM EST
    pig and ppj, once again you both show your ignorance of your very own country's history. thomas jefferson was elected, by the va house of burgesses, to represent va to the continental congress in philadelphia, which then drafted the declaration of independence. the va house of burgesses itself was an elected representative body. while it is true than not everyone in va had a vote, the fact is that mr. jefferson was, indeed, voted, by elected representatives, into congress.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 12:36:49 PM EST
    the violence will be over soon...as I recall some General said "we have broken the back of the insurgency" Sure. And all the Iraqis will finally cover US troops with flowers.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#21)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 01:13:22 PM EST
    Paul- You are not Jello Biafra, and Jello is a hack anyway.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 01:31:01 PM EST
    You know what I'm not, but I know what you are. Look at that innocent blood all over you. --

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#23)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 01:38:12 PM EST
    “You know what I'm not, but I know what you are. Look at that innocent blood all over you.” Apparently you don’t.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 01:38:27 PM EST
    pig - Don't argue with Paul - don't you know the rule about arguing with idiots? pig/Jim - Good point about the non democtratically elected Jefferson. Even though, as was pointed out, he was appointed by a legislative body, that body was not what we today would regard as democratic. No women, no blacks, no 18 year olds, no non-landowners. But, more importantly/interestingly, will the Iraqi's keep their constitution US-short of EU-long? Will it be an enumeration of rights or a laundry list of government programs and set-asides? -C

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 01:52:09 PM EST
    No women, no blacks, no 18 year olds, no non-landowners. so exactly when was a democracy established in the US

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 02:04:00 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey wrote..."In El Salvador... If you want to use El Salvador as a shining example of democracy then you have already sunk to depths from which you'll never extricate yourself. In fact, we have Negroponte once again establishing "Democracy By Death Squad". The only thing that's changed is the geography and the scale. The morals behind our crusade remain the same: totally absent. Our appointed stooges will last about 25 seconds before being turned into hamburger if our troops were to leave. Hell, they are dropping like flies even with 150 thousand of them there right now.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 02:06:08 PM EST
    PPJ askedWhat should we do, withdraw and let the terrorists win? Like Chomsky said...the best way to stop terrorism is to not participate in it.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 02:20:38 PM EST
    Cliff: Will it be an enumeration of rights or a laundry list of government programs and set-asides? Go back and read this and see who is trying to get the set-asides. Too bad most Iraqis don't feel like being "trickled down on", huh? Now if a foreign country were to invade and occupy this country and tell you who you were going to work for and under what system...would you go along with them or fight them? You certainly would be well within your rights to fight. And if you went along with them, other citizens would be well within their rights to fight you. Of course, the occupying power would call those who fought them terrorists. But I would prefer being called a terrorist by an occupying country to having my own countrymen calling me a collaborator. This is what Iraq looks like once you take the Neocon glasses off.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#29)
    by cp on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 03:18:12 PM EST
    the house of burgesses was an elected body. thomas jefferson was elected to that body. if you'll recall, at the time, the united states didn't exist, va was a colony of great britain. so, the comment regarding blacks, women, etc. is irrelevant. the question was "how many votes did jefferson get." not, who was allowed to vote. the united states is not a democracy, and never has been. it is a republic, a representative democracy. a true democracy would be anarchy.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 03:40:44 PM EST
    SD - Who ever told you we have a democracy? What we have here is a constitutional republic with democratic elections and institutions. Ernesto writes - "Like Chomsky said...the best way to stop terrorism is to not participate in it." So your position is that our troops in Iraq are terrorists? My country. Wrong. Always wrong. Is that your motto? You also write: "Now if a foreign country were to invade and occupy this country..." And if your aunt had balls, she would be your uncle. Why ask dumb questions like that? The comparsion can not be made, because it is silly. We are trying to create a constitutional republic - many say "democracy" for short - in Iraq. Are you also assuming that the US, at that point, has become a country ruled by a dictator that was just waiting to harm the mythical invading country.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 03:41:25 PM EST
    Cliff - Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#32)
    by ras on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 03:58:21 PM EST
    Note that the calls for delay come from selected Sunnis & from those groups that soft-support the terrorists. Note too that polls show a large majority of Iraqis, including a large majority of Sunnis (i.e. the regular people, not the Baath Socialist psychopaths) also want to vote. The current trial ballons represent an easy equation for anyone opposed to democracy: if a few bombings make elections "impossible" then the terrorists will have their long-sought recipe for ending democracy, not just in Iraq but anywhere. All they need is for a very small number of supporters - a relative handful, no more - to murder some innocents and voila - no democracy. Which by definition also equals dictatorship. Delay these elections now in response to the bombings, and you will get even more bombings, all around the world, and a feedback loop to ensure their continuance. If your actions inform the terrorists that their terrorism will henceforth be an effective tactic....

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#33)
    by ras on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 04:03:33 PM EST
    PPJ, if you wanna see the Left really go over the deep end - guys like Ernesto will look sane by comparison - you should check out the Portland Indymedia. Their latest? Earthquakes, volcanoes and the weather are controlled by the US (with help from their evil confreres in Australia and Israel, amomgst others). The latest tidal wave was to subjugate Indonesia over oil. You can find the references/links from my own post here. Ernesto, you gotta pick up the pace, man. You're falling behind!

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 04:56:37 PM EST
    ras - Sounds like a fun group!

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 05:35:43 PM EST
    ah ras still uninformed I see. The iraqi Intelligence Service director on Dec 30 estimated the size of the insurgence at 200k and growing. All 700 election workers in Mosul quit. As of 2 days ago 6% have registered to vote, and most members of the slates have not been identified for fear they will then be killed. The issue at the moment is strictly safety. And its not very safe.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 05:38:52 PM EST
    Jim asks Ernie, "Why ask dumb questions like that?" I can think of a very good reason why...

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 06:12:34 PM EST
    PPJ asks...So your position is that our troops in Iraq are terrorists? Hah, typical right winger...trying to shift the blame to the peons. No, the real terrorists are those that sent them over there and keep them there. If you really wanted to support the troops you would demand those in charge send them home now. My country. Wrong. Always wrong. Is that your motto? If you are truly patriotic, you admit when what our government is doing is wrong then work like hell to change it and hold those responsible accountable for their crimes. It's been asked before...but why do you hate this country enough to let it disgrace itself in front of the rest of humanity? To the point that you defend torture, and any number of atrocities that we have committed. You also write: "Now if a foreign country were to invade and occupy this country..." And if your aunt had balls, she would be your uncle. Why ask dumb questions like that? The comparsion can not be made, because it is silly. We are trying to create a constitutional republic - many say "democracy" for short - in Iraq. Are you also assuming that the US, at that point, has become a country ruled by a dictator that was just waiting to harm the mythical invading country. I am asking you to read the article I linked and tell me what you would do if you were in the place of Iraqis who face having their factories taken over by force. I would fight, just like they are. And if you were my countryman and joined the foreign occupiers I would fight you, and I would be well within my rights to do so. Do you disagree with that?

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 06:15:06 PM EST
    ras sez...you gotta pick up the pace, man. You're falling behind! Whoa...hold on, weren't you the guy that said destroying Fallujah had broken the back of the insurgency? Hmmm, seems like you are the one with some catching up to do.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 06:17:01 PM EST
    I can think of a very good reason why... And I can think of a good reason why none of your ilk will ever give a straight answer to those questions.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 06:47:00 PM EST
    Ernie, was that post to Jim at 7:12 your idea of a straight answer?

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 07:09:23 PM EST
    Jim - Poker night at my house next week. $20 max, free booze and cigars. Apparently you like drawing to inside straights. Actually I think the description of our Executive and Legislators as terrorists is quite telling. Kind of like the very nice former teacher of mine lectring me about voting for Bush because the Democrats freed the slaves and saved America. Good thing she taught Math, I guess. People believe what they want to believe. I have been enjoying our L friends suddenly believing the Iraqi ministry statement that there are more terrorists than US soldiers in Iraq. Good thing we have a kill ratio of between 25:1 and 100:1 depending. -C

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 07:23:11 PM EST
    Ernesto - You can not ask those "what if and what would" questions unless you set the parameters the same. Otherwise the question is a "Do you still beat your wife?" variation,and you look stupid trying to trap someone. So let me set the parameters. If we ASSUME that the US had morphed into a dictatorship, such as Iraq, and if we were invaded by a country that was trying to help us regain our constitutional republic, I would support the invaders. If we ASSUME that the US was the great country that it is now, I would lay my life on the line to fight the invaders. There, that isn't so hard, is it? And what you are really saying is that you are more qualified than our elected officals to set the strategy for our world wide war on terror. Tell us. What are your qualifications? I mean outside of a desire to complain? And is it unpatroitic to complain, and complain, etc? I think so. Home front morale has been of extreme interest to countries fighting wars for thousands of years. It is helpful to the enemy. Understand that. If the enemy thinks the war is unpopular, he is encouraged to continue fighting, and to fight harder. The world just works like that. And since you can not mandate the withdrawal of the troops, then your actions, at the best, are extremely unhelpful to the troops.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 07:30:37 PM EST
    Ace - Hey, Ernie is pedaling as fast as he can. Cliff - No booze or cigars, but yeah, I'll call an inside straight if the pot odds are 18 to 1 on my 5 to 1 draw... Is the game loose?? ;-)

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 07:34:29 PM EST
    Ernesto writes "Hah, typical right winger..." --- BTW ---- As I have posted time and again, I am a social liberal. Repeat after me. It is not necessary to be a Repub, or conservative to be a strong supporter of our defense. But the Left Wing Demos, and there are very few of any other kind, are doing everything possible to prove me wrong.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 07:48:03 PM EST
    A round of applause for all the right-wing frauds. 1,335 dead GIs are just losers. Their tax breaks didn't amount to much, and now their families get to live on welfare. WHAT an accomplishment. Probably they're just lazy, or they wouldn't let their arms and legs fly off into space like that. Social liberal...a ha-ha-ha. What about killing tens of thousands of innocent people do you consider liberal? You believe in being liberal with war crimes, corruption, and conspiracies against democracy. The only 'social' in that is sociopathic. Everything else is just a swollen ego with a jerk attached to it. --

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 07:56:07 PM EST
    "...you look stupid trying to trap someone." First of all, quit being paranoid. There is no strategy to make you look bad here, just to make you challenge your own assumptions and perhaps develop a wider perspective. I am sure there are many in Iraq who saw our invasion as a blessing...but I contend that even they are at odds with our ultimate reasons for it. ...if we were invaded by a country that was trying to help us regain our constitutional republic, I would support the invaders. And my question was what if that country that invaded did not give you back your liberty, but instead tried to set up a system that you felt was not to your advanatage. That's why I want you to read the article before answering the question. Look at this part: I left the plant feeling that I knew less than when I’d arrived. But on the way out of the gates, a young security guard handed my translator a note. He wanted us to meet him after work at a nearby restaurant, “to find out what is really going on with privatization.” His name was Mahmud, and he was a twenty-five-year-old with a neat beard and big black eyes. (For his safety, I have omitted his last name.) His story began in July, a few weeks after Bremer’s privatization announcement. The company’s manager, on his way to work, was shot to death. Press reports speculated that the manager was murdered because he was in favor of privatizing the plant, but Mahmud was convinced that he was killed because he opposed the plan. “He would never have sold the factories like the Americans want. That’s why they killed him.” And this part: At the end of our meeting, I asked Mahmud what would happen if the plant was sold despite the workers’ objections. “There are two choices,” he said, looking me in the eye and smiling kindly. “Either we will set the factory on fire and let the flames devour it to the ground, or we will blow ourselves up inside of it. But it will not be privatized.” This is the voice of the opposition...or as you call them...terrorists. Study any colonial war in history...including the American Revolution...and you will hear the same voice saying "liberty or death".

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 08:19:22 PM EST
    And what you are really saying is that you are more qualified than our elected officals to set the strategy for our world wide war on terror. Tell us. What are your qualifications? I mean outside of a desire to complain? It's funny but I predicted in 1998, upon first hearing the rumors that GWB was going to run in 2000...that if he won we would invade Iraq. Am I clairvoyant? Hardly. What we have witnessed is grand larceny, quite predictable based on past history. Read the article and see how Bremer's laws were enacted to effectively loot the state assets of Iraq. If you still want to cling to the WMD/human rights/Iraq involvement in 9/11 angle as the reason du jour...then go ahead, we need some comic relief from time to time. But please don't deny the economic plans that were drawn up and how they were to reward our companies with war booty. This theory has plenty of evidence to back it up, unlike your theories. And is it unpatroitic to complain, and complain, etc? I think so....It is helpful to the enemy...And since you can not mandate the withdrawal of the troops, then your actions, at the best, are extremely unhelpful to the troops. This is where your true colors come out and one realizes that you would have no problem taking away the very thing that makes this country special in world history. For here you are equating dissent with treason. It is disturbing to see that people still equate patriotism with towing the government line, no matter what the government line is. Including torture! Of course, you are wrong. Did the American colonists know or care what the British population was thinking about their insurgency? Did the Afghan mujahadeen care what the Russian people thought of their fight? You like bringing out the same canards over and over no matter how many times they get shot down. But you are more than wrong here...you are almost scary. And it is very scary when government officials start saying things along these lines.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 08:26:39 PM EST
    Ernesto - No, what you have here is a toung man who knows nothing but what he has been told and who doesn't want his world to change. As someone who spent 10 years in naval aviation and then went through 6 major mergers, I find his attitude understandable. But if things are to improve, these types of things are necessary. He may blow himself up, he may burn down the plant. But he shouldn't be allowed to stop the election and the privatization. Paul In LA writes - "Social liberal...a ha-ha-ha. What about killing tens of thousands of innocent people do you consider liberal?" And where is it written that a liberal should not place the good of his country in front of all others? Paul, you are not a liberal. You are the flip side of the coin bearing the likeness of the far right.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 08:28:42 PM EST
    I have been enjoying our L friends suddenly believing the Iraqi ministry statement that there are more terrorists than US soldiers in Iraq. Good thing we have a kill ratio of between 25:1 and 100:1 depending. Actually, it's more like there are more Iraqis currently pissed off at the occupation than there are troops there. And the more you kill the higher that number goes. It's been obvious for a while that a basic understanding of cause and effect is definitely not a strong point for you neocon types.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 08:31:54 PM EST
    But he shouldn't be allowed to stop the election and the privatization. Actually, he didn't say anything about stopping the election. And who the hell are you to tell them they can't stop the privatization? Take a few minutes and read the whole article.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#51)
    by ras on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 08:49:46 PM EST
    Soccerdad, You dodge the pt. Perhaps inadvertently? Estimates of the numbers of terrorists include very-soft supporters, but no mind, cuz it doesn't matter even if you do count them: A few hundred k, out of which only a minority are hard-core (as with any group) out of a population of ~25m is hardly a mass uprising; quite the opposite, in fact. If it were a popular revolution, the Baath Socialist and their AQ allies-of-convenience wouldn't need to fight anyone. They could win with the ballot box. But the whole pt of the bombings is that the Baath Socialist terrorists are not wanted by the vast majority of Iraqis, who want democracy. And all sides know that an election would confirm my statement, which is why the terrorists continue their murdering. If you have an alternative explanation, we'd love to hear it. Otherwise, it looks like the Afghanistan success all over. Intellectual fashionistas like to diss democracy, but real people know better. The chattering classes tried to talk down the Afghanistan elections, too, but the people of that country sure put their self-anointed "betters" in their place, didn't they? Lastly, I will emphasize again: delay the vote now because of the bombings and you will guarantee more bombings than ever before. And it'd take years to undo that trend, even if you afterwards wanted to: intermittent reinforcement is like that.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 04, 2005 at 11:14:18 PM EST
    Ernesto, it has nothing to do with how many get killed off, the fact is with elections on without election its still the people who are the real power and its up to the people who will rule, and who will fight who. Its going to be getting good soon.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#53)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 03:45:25 AM EST
    No ras - the real point is safety and our troops are outnumbered. Even if you put the hardcore at 40k thats still alot given how many troops we have and the tactics being used.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 03:59:53 AM EST
    "Its going to be getting good soon." A chilling promise, given the speaker. --

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 05:26:48 AM EST
    If you have an alternative explanation, we'd love to hear it. THe point of the bombings are to make the results of the election illegitimate. It is to force the population to not recognize the elected leader. There will be an election on Jan 30. THe US will declare the election a great success against overwhelming forces against it. The Iraqis will not recognize the elected leaders as legitimate. the insurgency will continue. The US will begin to look for reasons to hightail it out of there while they can still claim success, if they are smart. there elected gov't will be overthrown and some new Iraqi gov't will emerge that will be anti-american, anti western and possibly a source for state sponsored terrorism. Otherwise, it looks like the Afghanistan success all over. Intellectual fashionistas like to diss democracy, but real people know better. rotfl

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 05:44:13 AM EST
    Ernesto writes - "Actually, he didn't say anything about stopping the election. And who the hell are you to tell them they can't stop the privatization?" If he doesn't want to stop change, why is he complaining and threatening? And who am I to tell them? I am a social liberal who believes that they need a better government and private enterprise. Tell us. Why you don't believe in that ideal?

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#57)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 07:28:14 AM EST
    And who am I to tell them? I am a social liberal complete BS as has been demonstrated repeatedly here who believes that they need a better government agree and private enterprise What they need is private Iraqi enterprise, and not being raped by private foreign corporations.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#58)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 07:46:23 AM EST
    one question - if the elections go ahead who is going to keep the elected officials alive long enough to write a constitution? The consensus among analysts is that violence will get worse after the elections.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 09:43:03 AM EST
    SD writes - "The consensus among analysts is that violence will get worse after the elections." Are these the same people who said it would take 6 months to take Iraq? Or the ones who deemed that we were bogged down while the troops rested for a day or two waiting for the supply train to catch up? And BS to you, SD. Do you always act like an as*hole, or only when someone disagrees with you? I am more of a liberal than you have ever been, as demonstrated by your absolute inability to let someone disagree with your viewpoint, or be free to speech unless they agree with you. They desperately need outside investment and help. If you make them "bootsrap" themselves, it will take years longer than necessary.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 09:56:04 AM EST
    ppj says to SD I am more of a liberal than you have ever been... He has consistently told all everyone on TL he is a social liberal and now he is more liberal than SD. lmfao. Always good for a laugh, ol' ppj is. I hope everyone finally realizes ppj is a comedian. For awhile I took him seriously and actually got mad at him. Your good, ppj. Thanks for finally letting us all in on your joke.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 09:57:43 AM EST
    Whats the matter PPJ, can dish it out but can't take it? Typical bully. ROTFLMAO

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 10:51:56 AM EST
    The election will be held ontime so we can declare victory and get out of there.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 11:14:28 AM EST
    PPJ :"Are these the same people who said it would take 6 months to take Iraq? " LOL....That's it : "mission completed"..LOL You still don't have Iraq, didn't you notice? It won't take months: it will take decades. And you already lost a lot more than Iraq all around the world.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 11:58:22 AM EST
    Tell us. Why you don't believe in that ideal? What we have done/want to do to Iraq is modern day piracy with a good dose of state terrorism thrown in. I am glad that the Iraqi workers are standing up for their rights, just as American workers did a century ago. They are militant only because militancy is their only means to resist an occupying army. And once again, if you read the article you realize that all the talk about bringing liberty to Iraq only applies to a thin veneer of Iraqis (Chalabi anyone?) and a large host of foreigners. Those standing up to the occupation are fighting for their rights, and for their country.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 12:07:41 PM EST
    Always good for a laugh, ol' ppj is. Yes PPJ...the social liberal that endorses military force as a means of imposing economic exploitation, while showing little concern over our use of torture. You have a warped sense of humor, Peaches. ;)

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 04:05:35 PM EST
    SD - Tell us about that six months it was going to take for us to take Iraq? And yes, that is MAJOR military operations, and yes, Wait for - that was "mission accomplished." SD - Let us face it. Your agreement with OBL defines you. "Posted by: Poker Player (aka Jim) on September 25, 2004 07:39 PM soccerdad - We understand your position. As OBL said: ""...because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical." and then you follow. “I think our actions in Iraq have proven him correct. Posted by soccerdad at September 25, 2004 09:13 AM” So it is natural that you can find nothing but fault. And it is natural that you believe that we should fail. It would be illogical for someone who thinks our government is criminal, tyrannical and unjust to believe otherwise. Ernesto writes - "I am glad that the Iraqi workers are standing up for their rights, just as American workers did a century ago. They are militant only because militancy is their only means to resist an occupying army.." You realize, of course, that you are endorsing violence against an ally of the US, and by extension, against the troops in Iraq. Tell us again how patroitic you are. Peaches - Nowhere is it written that you must not be for a strong defence, not have a strong desire to help the troops, and a have over riding urge to think badly of the US at all times... to be a Social Liberal. It just isn't true, no matter what you may think. But, as I have pointed out before, the Left Wing Demos success in trying to convince the american public that all liberals are anti-war, wacko environmentalists, US condeming whenever there is an audience, has managed to elect Repub presidents for 24 of the past 36 years, soon to be 28 of the last 40. Not to mention control of the House and the Senate. So, I am glad you find my politics amusing. Based on results, the American public finds your's unelectable. And good intentions aside. Before you make policy, you must first win elections.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#67)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 06:00:14 PM EST
    PPJ - You know you are desperate when you keep pulling out that OBL quote and I keep agreeing with it. Given the way we have run the war in Iraq what other conclusion is there. So I guess you are back in your attack mode. Once again you can't win the issues so now you have spent the day insulting and attacking me. Desperate acts from a desperate fool. Attack away, becuase thats what people without ideas do. Attack all the time. I don't care. Go ahead have your fum, be the big bad bully. Whatever gives you pleasure.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 06:18:07 PM EST
    ppj, Stop it! You're killing me! Too funny....

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 07:40:10 PM EST
    Giggle away children. Let me see now, what was the latest strategy from the far Left? Of yeah. Filibuster. That'll get the reforms we need done. Yeah. Indeed. Sure.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#71)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 08:11:56 PM EST
    Now PPJ bring up filabusters a device well used by the GOP in previous admins. Forget the Poconos straight to letterman

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 09:53:42 PM EST
    Soc, Jim has finished you off. Are you too stupid to see it? Maybe you can pull a paper bag over your head like that little cat in the Warner Bros. cartoon..."I'm so ashamed..." Har!

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 10:19:48 PM EST
    You realize, of course, that you are endorsing violence against an ally of the US, and by extension, against the troops in Iraq. I am saying that ANY country that tries to impose economic exploitation on another country by use of military force is WRONG. Can we at least agree on that?

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 12:11:33 AM EST
    "What we have here is a constitutional republic with democratic elections and institutions." No, it's a democracy, and you wingers' obvious corruption is why you don't get that. (It's the corruption of slavers, colonialists, who don't really believe in democracy (I think Cliff called it 'anarchy', displaying considerable patrician whiteboy fear). It's a democracy because it is OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, AND FOR THE PEOPLE. Democracy is an innate right. A coup like you support is directly in violation of democracy; illegal, unconstitutional. All human beings, anywhere, in whatever culture, has the right to democracy, to the government of, by, and FOR the people of the country. USPNAC is colonialism, not democracy, in this most-famous offensive slap in the face of Bush's. He doesn't fool anyone with that sh*t. Half of the people of Iraq remember Kissinger and the Vietnam war, and all the rest. The other half are children who have lived under US-sponsored repression their whole lives. Neither group mistakes the source of their sufferings. --

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 04:09:36 AM EST
    Soc, Jim has finished you off. Are you too stupid to see it? Maybe you can pull a paper bag over your head like that little cat in the Warner Bros. cartoon..."I'm so ashamed..." Doc, you too?... Another comedian? This is fantastic. Not quite as talented as ppj, but with a lot of hard work you may go places.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#76)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 04:45:21 AM EST
    I see Ace as more of a clown. You know, with the big red nose and giant shoes

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    PPJ's mini-me.

    Re: Will Iraq Delay Elections? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:51:15 PM EST
    hey, lay off ace. judging by his comments etc, he's probably not even in high school yet. give the kid a break.