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4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:01:22 AM EST
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The independent report on Dan Rather's report on Bush's National Guard service is in. Four employees got the ax.

The network fired Mary Mapes, producer of the report; Josh Howard, executive producer of "60 Minutes Wednesday" and his top deputy Mary Murphy; and senior vice president Betsy West.

The report concluded the broadcast was not the result of a political agenda, just the desire to be first in reporting the story.

The independent investigators - former Republican Attorney General Dick Thornburgh and Louis Boccardi, retired president and chief executive officer of The Associated Press - said they could find no evidence to conclude the report was fueled by a political agenda.

The network's drive to be the first to break a story about Bush's National Guard service was a key reason it produced a story that was neither fair nor accurate and did not meet CBS News' internal standards, the investigators said.

Update: A later <a href="http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050110/2005-01-10T214419Z_01_N10222245_RTRIDST_0_ENTERTAINMENT-MEDIA-CBS-DC.html"
Reuters article reports,

The panel found no evidence of "a political agenda" in the timing or content of the story, which ran ahead of November's U.S. presidential election.

[comments now closed. Someone posted a url not in html format and the thread is skewed. Have to fix it and don't have time now. Thanks to all for adding your thoughts.]

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    • 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report | 84 comments (84 topical)
    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:11:45 AM EST
    Of course, what got lost in the story was that Bush went AWOL from the ANG to avoid a drug test. And of course, that was the whole point of the excercise.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#2)
    by Andreas on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:16:32 AM EST
    The WSWS published this article about the ouster of Dan Rather:
    CBS was also targeted by the Bush administration and the military for helping expose the prisoner abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib last April. CBS producer Mary Mapes and New Yorker magazine writer Seymour Hersh played key roles in bringing to light the graphic photos of tortured prisoners, first made public on the CBS program “60 Minutes II.” Mapes was also the producer of last September’s “60 Minutes” program examining Bush’s National Guard service. It is quite plausible that she was the victim of an effort to plant bogus evidence that would backfire on Mapes herself, Rather, and the network as a whole. But it takes two to be scammed, and the credulousness of Mapes and Rather only demonstrates the inability of the corporate-controlled media to conduct a serious and independent investigation of the corporate and political establishment of which they are part.
    The inglorious exit of CBS anchorman Dan Rather By Patrick Martin, 29 November 2004

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:29:00 AM EST
    I'm confused. Did the investigation conclude the assertions of the initial report were false? Did the independent panel provide an opinion about the source for the story? And where the hell was George Bush way back then, anyway?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:39:04 AM EST
    What you are witnessing is the death rattle of the media as we know it and the birth of the blogging movement. That's actually the big story. The story was a fabrication. Pure and simple. If you aren't pissed off that a major news outlet fabricated a major news story right before an election then you play right into the hands of Fox News. I hope you see the connection.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:45:23 AM EST
    Third World,third rate.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:50:33 AM EST
    What you are witnessing is the death rattle of the media as we know it and the birth of the blogging movement. That's actually the big story. Eh. People have been saying that for ages. As far as the report goes, the conclusion is prima facie plausible. Competition for big stories has gotta be fierce.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:51:01 AM EST
    ernesto - That story is so old and so full of BS that I am astounded that even you keep repeating it. But I note that you refer to the attempt as an "excercise" so I assume you understand that it was a case of fraud. Of course, if the memo had been written, that is what it would have said. I am LOL at you guys. obelus writes - " Did the investigation conclude the assertions of the initial report were false? Did the independent panel provide an opinion about the source for the story? " No, obelus. CBS fired these four people becuase they were associated with and produced a true report that was an astoundingly accurate piece of news reoporting. Duhhhhhh. Andreas - Your tin hat is getting rusty.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:55:09 AM EST
    If you aren't pissed off that a major news outlet fabricated a major news story right before an election then you play right into the hands of Fox News. As far as I know Fox News hasn't made up any stories. The beauty of the Democrats is that they have enough "REAL" damaging news stories about them that legitimate news organizations (that are not too liberal to report bad news about Dems) don't have to make up news stories. Not only do they not have to make up stories but they don't have to fabricate documents, go through expert after expert after expert till they find one that kind of thinks the documents might be not too fake or disregard the family of the person who supposedly "typed" the comments in question. The truth shall set you free! Only 10 more days until we party again! See you at the inaugural! Is anyone having a party to celebrate?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:10:13 AM EST
    How are these people "guards"? As for their not being a political agenda, that's pure BS.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:17:28 AM EST
    They are victims of a new McCarthyism, pure and simple. Corporate media is now effectively cowed.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:19:21 AM EST
    Here we go again. Somehow the faulty reporting of CBS got Bush off the hook for this. Inquiries regarding his time served in the national guard were dropped from discussion and conservatives went into their predictable tyrant regarding the 'liberal bias' in the media. JV how about writing in complete sentences with periods to seperate the ideas next time? You know how we liberals are sticklers for grammar, well with the exception of Safire.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#12)
    by wishful on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:20:25 AM EST
    Maybe the whole thing workd exactly as planned. We still don't know nor does anyone care about AWOL's TANG activities. He's sure not saying.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:26:54 AM EST
    The take over/intimidation of corporate media is pretty much complete. The only thing left is complete control of the justice system. Since Dems willingly check their balls at the door, it should only take another year or so.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:34:51 AM EST
    GregZ - The media has had almost 5 years on this subject, and have went no where. Could this mean that there is nothing to the charges? Does the fact that Rather & Co were so desperate they ran with an obviously false memo/letter mean that they couldn't find anything else? A reasonable person would say. Yes.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:38:41 AM EST
    Sorry J, I can't celebrate the further downward spiral of our once great nation. Enjoy your Nero-themed party. It seems CBS is holding these people responsible for their actions, which is more than I can say for the electorate.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#16)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:50:05 AM EST
    News flash: Bush didn't do jack sh*t for TANG! Wait, that's not news. What were we talking about again?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:51:14 AM EST
    et al: The memo was a plant by Karl Rove. All the Republican commentors are snickering while they pretend to be outraged.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#18)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:00:06 AM EST
    Two items annoy me about this issue. One is the conclusion that the urge to be first was the underlying reason for screwing up. This is a testable hypothesis. There ought to be a bunch of other screw-ups where the urge to be first led to major howlers at CBS and which had no political dimension. How would anybody find out? The other one is that, despite this creepy insistence on on information about military service thirty plus years ago for Bush, not one journalist ever challenged Kerry to sign the Form 180 and release all of his records. This is particularly curious because Kerry made a big deal of his service--unlike Bush--and, at least theoretically, might have had ammo to refute the Swift Boat Vets' accusations in his paperwork. I am not surprised he didn't do it voluntarily. It is illuminating, if not surprising, that, given the circumstances, no journalist challenged him about it.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:01:47 AM EST
    Hmmm... Rather is vilified for running with a story that should have been "checked" at the door. The Swift Boat Veterans make up a story which morphs into an "info-entary" when proved to be false. While the mechanisms of discredit were different the resulting effects on viewers are quite discernable. The reasons the Bush National Guard story won't go away is because Bush engaged in behavior that speaks to what I consider fundamental character flaws that directly reflect his ability to lead. The fact that supposedly conservative biased media outlets choose not to investigate stories that damange conservative leadership leads them, in this case, to a holier than thou attitude towards CBS. Would that Jesus were here to write all of your sins in the sand...

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#20)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:06:33 AM EST
    mfox, please tell us what part of the Swifties' story is proven false.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:08:38 AM EST
    Ok,Ok, if you really want to know what is happening here, read into the "buzzsaw" its all about setup's and control of all news and ideals.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:09:06 AM EST
    RA - it would be a lot shorter to say what was actually true. It was all bs anybody with a brain knew it.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#23)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:12:06 AM EST
    Sometimes you're good, Soc. This isn't one of them.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:27:43 AM EST
    Dear Richard Aubrey, Reality Check: When a friend of John Kerry's was killed in Viet Nam, Mr. Kerry voluntarily enlisted for active duty. At the same time (thirty plus years ago as you say) A friend of Bush's dad was pulling strings to get G.W. out of harm's way. No deep secrets here. While G.W. was performing to the minimum standards required and falling off of bar stools, John Kerry was responsible for the lives and deaths of a group of dedicated young men in one of Vietnams most infamous wartime areas. While George Bush was sleazing out of his cushy Guard Duty (obviously too strenuous for him)to do campaigning for his dad's friends, attend Harvard and apparently "lose" a year, John Kerry was running gunboat operations down a deadly gauntlet, engaging in hand-to-hand combat and earning high honors for his service. Can Bush even remember what he was doing on that day?? How dare you dismiss Bush's cowardice as having happened "thirty-plus years ago" and demand that Kerry's record be investigated. Why not just come out and say that you think Bush is more Patriotic than Kerry regardless of the above because he's a Conservative and Kerry a liberal. Whether a story about G.W. being "caught" by a technicality in his less than respectful exit from duty is true, provable or not DOES NOT excuse him in my book from being unfit to lead our nation's military. I am by nature a pacifist and don't know if Kerry would have made a good president but SURE AS HELL would prefer him in my gun boat to G.W. ANYDAY.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#26)
    by cp on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:33:47 AM EST
    ppj - true to form, you haven't a clue. to date, the memos have not been categorically proven false, by any reputable expert in the field. i challenge you to prove otherwise. remember, i said reputable. richard aubrey - you're either stupid or intentionally obtuse, you make the call. the swifties have been proven, by multiple official and unofficial sources, to be a hot, steamin' pile o' prevarication. what cave were you in when all this was going down? j - as usual, avoid the truth by raising a flapping red herring. perhaps, in their zeal to get the story out, they didn't 100% vet the memos. yet, there remains that small problem of those memos still not having been conclusively proven to be fraudulent, by any respectable, non-partisan expert in the field. geez, if fox fired everyone associated with a "story" that turned out to be questionable, um, well, hm, there wouldn't be a fox news division left.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:26:42 AM EST
    PPJ - A few more of these and you may actually have some of "Hanoi Walter" out of your system. J - You should be concerned? A few hundred or whatever,"fair and balanced"right-wing radio talk-shows going practically around the clock isnt enough for you? Of course it isnt.Btw,Bush didnt run on a "30 day period etc",he ran on a 1 day period-9/11 in which his spin machine turned one of the great f*ck ups in U.S history into a p.r coup.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#30)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:33:10 AM EST
    Just for grins, Kerry himself admits two of his wounds were self-inflicted. One was when he put a grenade in a pile of rice and didn't get away fast enough. I don't recall the other, perhaps it was the 40mm round that hit too close. Neither was deliberate, and, under certain circumstances, could still qualify for a Purple Heart. The accusations of Bush's poor duty are so vague as to require forged documents for their support. "How dare..." is hysteria, not to mention off topic. I suggested that the failure of even one journalist to confront Kerry about the Form 180 was curious, given the huge amount of energy put into the nuts and bolts--even the fake ones--of Bush's service at about the same time. Presumably, since Kerry walks on water, his papers would have cleared all this up and sunk the Swifties. That he didn't is even more curious. Maybe the fault lies in the premise in the first sentence in the paragraph. Anyway, comparing Rathergate and the lack of interest in Kerry's files is an interesting view on the press and the political process.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:52:41 AM EST
    so once again, a discussion of Bush morphs into an attack on Kerry by our representatives from the RNC noise machine. And we wonder why we keep losing.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:55:52 AM EST
    You people are rediculous arguing over this nonsense. First, everthing that was said about Bush and Kerry's military service prior to the election is nothing but partisan crap, and should be promptly rejected as such. If you can think for yourself and feel like listening to the rumors, you'll probably come to the conclusion that both of them did everything in their power to avoid their participation in combat during Viet Nam. Who cares, most of our presidential nominees are scum bags in one way or another. Get used to it. But, the fact is that nobody ever tied Bush or Rove to the swifties, while CBS admitted on national television that it attempted to introduce Lockhart to Burkitt in order to get the forged documents from Burkitt. That factually makes them Left Wing hacks, and that is what this whole thing his about. An elitest media outlet, being proven the hacks that they are.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:41:02 PM EST
    Since this site is also about Defense Law, let's look at the CBS story like this. A witness perjured themselves on the stand, but it didn't matter because the defendant was guilty any way.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:52:34 PM EST
    Jim, the BS element is why Ernie keeps repeating it. Newsflash, Prov, McCarthy WAS right. Hiss was a spy. Didn't you read the released KGB files? The left is insensitive to the dishonor of this fakery because the left swims in a sea of dishonor. It's all in their element. Soc, some of us don't wondrwhy you keep losing.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:52:49 PM EST
    PPJ reasonable people are wondering why it is so difficult to get straightforward answers to questions regarding Bush's services. By the way True Liberal nice strawman.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#37)
    by BigTex on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:55:13 PM EST
    My my th' consparicy therorists are out in full force fer this un. How about th' logical reasonin' t' this matter? CBS still has journalistic pride. Warped and beaten down t' be sure, but pride none the less. They're takin' steps t' protect that pride, and give whoever is th' new anchor a fresh slate t' work with. Add t' th' mix that they are th' bottom o' th' big 3 and they have nothin' t' lose by this move. While I hate t' rehash th' election since th' conspiracy theories abound I'll throw one out there. Takin' th' poll spread and doin' statistical analysis Kerry's r^2 had flattened out t' 0.0004 th' Friday before th' election, while th' Sherrif's was 0.04. In order t' keep Kerry's r^2 flat (which was around 48%) th' Sherrif okayed pullin' Osama out from Yucca Mountian t' make a tape t' be released. Can't argue with th' logic since we all know that th' Sherrif has had Osama locked in a secret location for over a year now, Kerry's r^2 stayed flat, and Kerry stayed at 48%. Too neat and logical t' argue otherwise.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    For a sensible retrospective perspective. Few are noticing the "recommendations" of the independent report--you can download the whole report from the MSNBC article online here. AOL News also reports on the recommendations to CBS-News, which include one really worrisome one wherein senior management is to be given access to all information about "confidential sources." The recommendation pertaining to senior managment of CBS-News depends on the integrity of those holding those positions. Perhaps the recommendations need to extend to the "standards and practices" of hiring as well as firing. And, ultimately, to the education of journalists. If students in colleges who aspire to become journalists in various media plagiarize their term papers and do otherwise dishonest work, what kinds of professionals do they become? The problem is far more widespread than many realize. The lack of credibility of the presidency itself reflects the kind of intellectual dishonesty (and perhaps even criminal activity) in Pres. GWB's own personal and collegiate life that leads to the kinds of questions about his national-guard service raised later: it's all of a piece. If Daddy and your brothers protect you from being found out in your early life, do "Big Daddy" (or "Uncle Sam") and "Big Brother" protect you and your country from being found out later? It's really not far to travel from "Rathergate" and the TANG issues to Abu Ghraib and the nomination of Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General. Where (and when) does it stop?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#39)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:05:37 PM EST
    Good points, Sue, up until the last paragraph. Where does it stop? It stopped, at least as regards evidence, long ago.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:19:00 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey: "It" depends on what the word "it" refers to--Bill Clinton: it depends on what the word "mean" means?! ;) When does the dishonesty stop. As far as I can tell, there is plenty of "evidence" of continuing dishonesty going on in the current Bush administration, as there was in the two previous ones (inc. his father's that is). Just take the Gonzales hearings themselves: plenty of evidence of dishonesty going on there. I include "sleight of hand"--not answering questions--as evidence of dishonesty. There are different kinds of dishonesty--not admitting what one believes and not admitting that one does not have all the "facts"--but dishonesty is still dishonesty. Plenty of "evidence" of that in the media, in the presidency, in the campaigns for the presidency, and in the conduct of the (ongoing) war in Iraq. What's next? Tsunamis relief efforts? (Let's not pat ourselves on the back for our generosity too soon.) As I said, where (and when) does it (the dishonesty) stop? Given the nature of human beings to dissemble to protect their own self-interests, perhaps never?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#41)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:20:14 PM EST
    Okay, perhaps never. Now what?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:20:43 PM EST
    Three words: Swift Boat Vets. Ok, maybe that is two words, but I did go to public schools for a while, so sue me. -C

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:25:29 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey: "Now what?" We remain vigilant. And gutsy.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    GregZ - Hey, all the information has been released. Give it up. After five years you have something or you don't. cp - See my comment to obelus. And take some common sense pills. et al - The real kicker in all of this is: "The producer of the piece, Mary Mapes, was also faulted for calling Joe Lockhart, a senior official in the John Kerry campaign, prior to the airing of the piece, and offering to put Burkett in touch with him. The panel called Mapes’ action a “clear conflict of interest that created the appearance of political bias.” ".... a telephone conversation between Mapes and Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges... Mapes told the panel Hodges confirmed the content of the four documents... Hodges, however, denied doing so. He also told the panel he had given Mapes information that should have raised warning flags about the documents, including his belief that Killian had never ordered anyone, including Mr. Bush, to take a physical. Here's the CBS mea culpa. Conclusion - Mapes got caught out, probably because she wanted to please Rather, and, based on the call to Lockhart, help Kerry. The meat was rotten, but the taste so sweet none of them could put it down. Eight years ago, no four years ago, the story would have probably survived, or at least long enough to win the election for Kerry. How did that song go? "The answer my friend is written in the wind..." and the other one... "the times they are a changing..."

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:53:52 PM EST
    "kerry's a traitor." And what is traditionally done with traitors? This is how the right triumphs in the debate - criminalizing alternative ideas and dissent and culling the garden of thought and imagination into a couple of sclerotic little rows - all the better to get soldiers from. Stop sh*tng yourselves with fear and try stretching your minds a little fer crissake.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:57:38 PM EST
    none of us really knows what happened when kerry was in viet nam or when gwb was the guard. personally, i wasn't even alive then. so we will never, ever know thw whole truth. because we weren't there. and i think cbs made an error, perhaps a fatal error. why they did it is so irrelevant it's laughable! tht's like asking a little kid why they flushed mommy's cell phone. it's not like cbs was producing anything of value anymore anyway. rather is in disgrace, heads are rolling, and the hate fest continues bewtween the left and right. i see no reason for more than my usual amount of despair.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 02:32:18 PM EST
    kelite - I often forget how young many bloggers are. The issue is very important because it raises the question of trust and confirms just how off path the network has become. It is important because it was an attempt to improperly influence the out come of a Presidential election. It is important because it shows the direct connection between the media, see the telcon between Mapes and Lockhart, and the Democratic party. It shows the lie the MSM has been selling for years that there is no bias. A free press is protected in the constitution, "..or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;..." Those who act in such ways that guve others the tools they may use to remove that protection should be punished and shamed because they have harmed the very basis of our society.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 02:51:47 PM EST
    none of us really knows what happened when kerry was in viet nam or when gwb was the guard. personally, i wasn't even alive then. so we will never, ever know thw whole truth. because we weren't there.
    I wasn't at the Holocaust either but LEARNED the whole truth through media and education (some public, some self. Truth does exist independently from perception and facts constitute the truth. Facts can be verified or disproven. In discussing the case of the Swift Boat Veterans as it relates to CBS's coverage of Bush's TANG service the following facts exist: FACT: CBS was overzealous in capitalizing on a story that seemed too good to be true and should have been much better vetted (no pun intended!)before publishing - especially considering the timing as it related to the election. FACT: Swiftboat Veterans for Truth leveled accusations at John Kerry, claiming he didn't earn his medals and lied about his service record. This story was not vetted at all and was given national news coverage before the truth came out that Swiftboat Veterans For Truth is really an organized, partisan 527 run by an established republican communication operative and GOP loyalists. Whether Rather was "out to get" Bush is open to debate. Whether the Swifties were out to get Kerry is not open to such discussion. Sticking to facts (i.e., the foundation upon which truth is built) does anyone want to explain why Rather is a "Left Wing hack." (written with disgust not usually bestowed on "fair and balanced" reporting by Limbaugh, et al.)? Also sticking to facts, could anybody also explain the difference between Rather's blunder and that of the Swiftboat Vets in terms of integrity, intent, cause and effect?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#49)
    by Patrick on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 03:07:35 PM EST
    Rather was a world renown major media anchorman, while there are few here who could even name one member of the Swift Boat Veterans org without first looking it up on the internet.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#50)
    by BigTex on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 03:23:21 PM EST
    [C]ould anybody also explain the difference between Rather's blunder and that of the Swiftboat Vets in terms of integrity, intent, cause and effect? There'll never be a consensus on th' integrety and intent prongs o' yer question, so not goin' t' try t' answer them. Cause ... because o' Rather havin' taken up liberal causes in th' past, fer reference see his apology fer attendin' a function that his daughter was involved in, and self proclamed bein' a liberal it caused CBS t' look like they were out t' get th' Sherrif, regardless o' th' truth. While I admire his stickin' up fer his collegues, it helped t' cement in th' belief that he and CBS Evenin' News were out t' get th' Sherrif. Swiftboat Vets were out t' get Kerry. Th' difference is that CBS's news wing, any serious journalistic news wing, is supposed t' be nonpartizan and t' serve t' public interest. It was a betrayal o' th' public trust. Swiftboat vets were political hacks, and are supposed t' serve their master. Effect 1, t' quote a bumber sticker I saw yesterday "W *new line*still th' President. Effect 2, Swift boat vets reinforced th' preception that hack groups are dirty, just like politics; CBS, and all three evenin' news shows as a consiquence, take a credibility hit. Now Brokaw and Rather are gone. A new age in network news is berthed. Not that th' evenin' news is dead, but it's been shaken t' th' point where th' anchors have t' step down t' give th' apperance o' credibility t' th' program. It did serious harm t' th' industry, but if they try t' be fair, they can recover.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 03:23:55 PM EST
    GregZ, What strawman? I'm just looking for rational liberal discussion. This is the kind of thing that liberals should be all over since it goes to trust. How can I trust CBS to watch the government when they were not only duped, but they refused to do anything about it until now. When people become dissillusioned about their institutions they tend to do crazy things. BTW, I think Bush got preferential treatment. But these are two separate issues.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 03:24:59 PM EST
    Fox reporting the DC snipers had them regularly as terrorists -the tabloid queen Rita Cosby was factually incorrect on several points in this story --they were never corrected. Fox is often wrong and never corrects. The facts of the Bush story are still in despute and the as for the loon still quoting the dirt barge scow boys on Kerry. You are repeating lies. The investigation by the Navy during the campaign as the request of Mellon Scaife tools proved Kerry correct and the liars to be liars. We still do not know where George Bush was and to speculate that he was avoiding a drug test is fair game. Where was he?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 03:25:55 PM EST
    ppj; speaking of being young... i have never, in my entire life, had a live elected official (or candidate) not be accused of truly heinous things... and i have never looked at tv as a reliable source of reality or truth. as a matter of fact, tv is the place i go when i want to escape reality. so it's not like this is unprecendented, shocking, or even that interesting. now, to whoever out there trusted cbs (or specifically, dan rather) to deliver unbiased facts... they now know that's not gonna happen. justice is served. whether by error or by deliberate manipulations, tv news shows are proven incompetent as a mechanism to deliver the unvarnished and unsugarcoated news. are you telling me that someone out there did more than feign shock? someone actually thought dan rather was unbiased??? cnn, fox, nbc, abc, etc... they are all full of crap and biased to the max because they are not about providing the news or any kind of journalistic integity. they are about making money. and scandal and sex sell. period, end of story. i have no romantic notions tied up in the press, they were never instilled because there was never a time in my conscious life where the media was looked at as a source of truth. infotainment? yeah. depressing gore spattered accounts of tradgedy? uh huh. light hearted 'human interest' fluff? sure. but truth??? naaahh. maybe a grain here and there, but not without a healthy coating of speculation and sensationalizing. mfox; i pointed out that we will never know exactly what happened because... well, i guess because (as evidenced above) i have fully hardened into a cynical curmudgeon who has a hard time seeing any merit in arguing about this issue. i don't think the story is at all important because i don't think it is at all unique. show me a politician who doesn't lie, and i will introduce you to my friend randy the flying pig. let's talk about more important lies, like the current war in iraq and human rights horrors around the world (including right here at home). or how about the creeping threat posed by the anti-choice movement, people, groups against the seperation of church and state, global warming, the aids crisis, the oppression of homosexuals, the continual dumbing down and fattening up of us as a nation, etc etc etc. in my opinion, those arguments are more important and have the potential to be more productive. btw, i am nearly 30 years old. not that young.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 03:40:11 PM EST
    Speaking of scandals, Perrspectives is having a "Name That Bush Scandal" Contest.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 04:10:54 PM EST
    But I note that you refer to the attempt as an "excercise" so I assume you understand that it was a case of fraud. Yes PPJ it was a case of fraud. It worked marvelously, actually. It's not a completely new strategy, either. Poisoning the well, I think they call it. Now the Bushies could dismiss the fact that he went AWOL and was reprimanded for it as a piece of fiction. Let's impugn the record of someone who dodged bullets and pump up the record of some other guy who was dodging a piss test. You Republicans are all great Americans!

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 04:31:43 PM EST
    kelite - Two things. Don't knock making money. You'll need it. When you get old. Lord, to be under 30 One More Time... Dearest No Name - If the Beltway Snipers were not Moslem Terrorists, what were they? And why should you care where Bush was? If you are referring to the AWOL charge, it has been proven that he made the meetings. You are just another Bush Hater At Work, nothing to say, no proo, just complain and moan. Moan and complain. As for Kerry. His 180 was never released. Why? That simple act would have shut everyone up. Or would it? Mfox - Forgetting about all the "who shot who, and the wounds, etc.," I find that the Swift Boat Vets brought three killer issues to the forefront of public opinion. First, 15 of the 23 people who were associated with him said he was unfit to command. That is a deadly comment about someone running for CIC. Secondly, his multiple false claims of being in Cambodia during Christmas painted him as a liar. A self portrait, at that. Thirdly, his slurs and attacks on the military after he got out, his testimony before congress and his meeting with the enemy in Paris were unforgiveable, and unforgiven, and will always be so to many, many, many who had no other ax to grind. BTW - You wrote - "How dare you dismiss Bush's cowardice as having" You know, I have never questioned Kerry's courage, and never will. It takes guts to go where he went, and do what he did. And I would caution those who attack him on that basis that it makes them seem small. But I will also tell you that it takes courage to climb into a modern day jet fighter and fly it in any mission. They are not toys, and they will kill the pilot in a heartbeat if he makes a miscue. So you make yourself small, just as those who attack Kerry's courage make themselves small. As for Rather, I think I have watched him longer than you. To me he is a walking demonstration of ego overcoming common sense.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 04:35:10 PM EST
    Ernesto - I am LOL at you. Really. Are you that paranoid? And read my comments to Mfox re courage. And show me one place where I have questioned Kerry's.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#59)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 04:57:29 PM EST
    So you make yourself small, just as those who attack Kerry's courage make themselves small. this is absolutely the funniest thing I've read in months. Now i have to clean the computer screen from the soda I just spit out. thanks for the laugh. Hypocrites are at least good for some laughs once in awhile

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 05:01:38 PM EST
    off topic comment deleted. This poster repeatedly does this. Once more and he's banned from the site.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 05:02:17 PM EST
    et al: The memo was a plant by Karl Rove. All the Republican commentors are snickering while they pretend to be outraged. For the sake of idiocy, let's say the above statement is true. So CBS is the victim? It's not their fault they went against at least 4 document experts? It's not their fault they disregarded the family of the man (Killian) who supposedly wrote the memo? (the son and widow of Col. Killian both said Col. Killian did not type memos and he liked G W Bush) It's not their fault they did not vet the source of the documents? (Bill Burkitt had in the past tried to besmirch Bush's name and stated publicly he would "take down" governer Bush. It's not their fault they coluded with the Kerry campaign to get their source in touch with Joe Lockhart? It's not their fault they continued to taught the authenticity of the story in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary? It's not their fault they tried to say the story was true even though the evidence "may be" false? Why would they do all these things? It wouldn't be bias would it? It wouldn't be that they wanted the story to be true so bad, that they would blow off the fact that the story had more evidence against it than for it? Here are some complete sentences for you grammar, stickling liberals: Only 10 more days until we party again! See you at the inaugural! [This poster is limited to four comments a day. He's at three now.]

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 06:12:21 PM EST
    To Richard Aubrey: Per your Request
    mfox, please tell us what part of the Swifties' story is proven false
    . From Annenberg Center, link [text deleted, sorry, but we don't have the bandwidth for reprints]

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 06:18:31 PM EST
    Soccerdad, You keep losing because you insist on running screaming extremists. Had Joe Lieberman been your candidate you would probably have won by a larger margin than GW did. I'd have voted for Lieberman as would many other people who found themselves supporting Bush because Kerry was a [name calling deleted]

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 06:25:36 PM EST
    The CBS Memogate Report--an insider's perspective
    Okay, since I'm mentioned three times in the report (twice, inaccurately labelled a blogger), and I even played a peripheral role in the verification of the Killian memos, I guess I can call myself an "insider" to some small degree.
    (I'm Paul Lukasiak, and my website is called The AWOL Project. As the report correctly notes, when CBS wanted to find more Killian signatures in the publicly released documents, they came to me---and although I didn't know why I was being asked at the time, I was asked a number of questions pertaining to the consistency of the memos with the rest of the documents.)
    And from the facts of which I'm aware, the Memogate Report can be described in one word.
    Bull***.
    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 06:31:10 PM EST
    PPJ...sorry if I made you feel guilt by association. But let's face it...what the right wingers did to Kerry, and especially Max Cleland, was beyond reprehensible. As for memogate...why the hell would anyone have to make anything up, when the known facts were damning enough? Anyway, I did a google search on "poisoning the well" and this article popped up. Pretty accurate description of how the media works these days.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 07:47:16 PM EST
    Ernesto - I am a social liberal, ex-Democrat, who doesn't try to explain the actions of the radicals on both sides. In this case, both gave as good as they got, with the Demos re-starting the contest last February when they started attacking Bus re TANG. What they didn't understand was the intense dislike for Kerry, and the three items I listed in another thread. As for the "physical," please try to understand something. A flight physical in many cases will be combimed with other qualification tests, small arms quals, water survival, fire escape, parachute handling, etc. In other words, it can be a two day, or three, pain in the butt. But even if it is just a physical, if you are leaving flight status, you are unlikely to bother with it. I t isn't needed and when you come back, you can do it then. Plus, in some cases, you will have to take it all over again if you haven't flown "x" number hours. Kind of a damned if you and damned if you don't deal. Bush was TAD to AL working on a Senate campaign for Blount, plus he was working for an arigiculture company. Plus, and this is the deal, by then he knew that the 102 was being replaced. And that to be selected for training on the replacement, he would have to commit for more service. True story. If you only have "x" amount of time left, the military will not train you in the new equipment. Think about it. It just makes sense. So Bush just ignored it. No big deal, happens regularly and routinely. You know, the Repubs have many faults, and there are many things needing fixing in this country. It is a shame that the Left forced a loser like Kerry on the Demo party. BTW - Can anyone shows us one of those RNC talking point memos/faxes??? They seem as hard to captire as the illusive Snipe.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:06:03 PM EST
    I'm personally convinced that Viacom is seeking to tap the "mainstream Democrat" market for news and entertainment, with Disney, NewsCorp, and others quite clearly catering to a Conservative audience. Pure Corporatists are about money first, economic power first, and every thing else second. The mainstream Democratic Party is usually only their enemy when seeking to realize a genuinely Progressive ideal (rarely) that could be (more, less) detrimental to short term capital interests. Often times the Progressive ideal being accepted into the Democratic mainstream is a market driven policy solution seeking to give incentive for Long Term investment or innovation (rather than Capitalization). Corporatists then inexorably demonize the ideal as an exercise in Marxism and it is quickly attacked from all sides with money, legal action, conjecture, intentional propaganda, scandal, and punditry. In Viacom's case, the organization was clearly attempting to cater to the majority of its viewership's desire for election news favorable to Kerry (irregardless of whether it was overzealousness or intentionally mainpulated by planted info). That doesn't make Viacom or CBS a Liberal enterprise, it is simply a Corporatist attempt to provide product to its targeted market. Having said that, there are varying degrees of (the purity of) Corporatism. When your leadership is made up of self-professed ideologues (i.e. Sinclair Broadcasting), priorities can shift from short term capitalization to whatever is in the interest of the leadership. There are many more examples clearly evident with varying degrees of intent. I believe Viacom to be on par with Disney in this regard.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#63)
    by Rich on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:26:05 PM EST
    Fellas, there is no mystery here. The British government and media demonstrated this phenomenon in the Galloway affair (accused journalist later exonerated) and Lord Hutton Inquiry of the David Kelly affair (BBC chief Gavyn Davies' head on the ceremonial pike) in the past year all over contemporary lies regarding PM Blair's support of the Bush-Iraq War. This phenomenon is best described by Chomsky's "Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies" and summarized with an extracted quote from the same reference.
    "As in the case of eighteenth century doctrine on seditious libel, truth is no defense; rather, it heightens the enormity of the crime of calling authority into disrepute".
    Indeed, what did anyone expect from an investigation with Richard Thornburgh as its putative head? rich

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:16:33 PM EST
    "Our discoveries in Afghanistan confirmed our worst fears, and showed us the true scope of the task ahead...We have found diagrams of American nuclear power plants..." --GWB, SOTU address, 2002 "The Wall Street Journal did have the good sense to report ...that the White House now says the concerns highlighted by Mr. Bush were based not on plant diagrams actually found in Afghanistan -- there were none -- but on a variety of intelligence developed before and after the Sept. 11 attacks." (CJR, Feb 04) How exactly does the POTUS make a mistake of claiming plans of US nuclear facilities were found in Afghanistan, "confirming our worst fears," when in fact there were no plans found? Probably the same way he wanders into a photo-op with Pacific leaders, with his zipper down and his underwear showing. Apparently, no one actually WORKS in the White House, though they do have some wicked parties. Confirming fears appears to have a very low ceiling for a nutcase like Geo. "Let's You and Him Fight" Bush. 1,350 dead soldiers want to know WHY he lied to them. I guess they can ask Jesus. --

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:21:30 PM EST
    "Confirming fears appears to have a very low ceiling for a nutcase like Geo. "Let's You and Him Fight" Bush." That is, of course, if you ignore August 2001, like he did. And "I really don't think about him at all." (Osama bin Forgotten) And 'Chalabi? Who is he?' And 'Ken Lay? Never heard of him.' And, that greatest hits medley, "Mission Accomplished...Bring it On." And, "Today, hostile actions have commenced against Iraq. Now watch this [golf] swing." Must be nice always having someone else fall on their swords. --

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 02:42:00 AM EST
    Thirdly, his slurs and attacks on the military after he got out, his testimony before congress and his meeting with the enemy in Paris were unforgiveable, and unforgiven, and will always be so to many, many, many who had no other ax to grind. If one considers the free fire zones then it´s totally accurate to say; warcrimes happened on a day-to-day basis. Kerry probably exagurated about the frequency of atrocities. However it´s worth to note that in those days the US military did not want to admit to any kind of atrocities at all.. It took a lot of guts and will to stand up for what is right, something Kerry had. He took part in revealing the untold horrible stories that needed to be told and a lot of people will always hate him for it. Message: No matter what the wingnuts tell me, In my eyes kerry will always be a better man than that psycho "never to be wrong" ex finger flippin governor..

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 03:27:45 AM EST
    Kerry did NOT exaggerate about the frequency of atrocities. Kerry reported the findings of the Winter Soldiers report. Kerry didn't do more than pointing to what COMBAT SOLDIERS said on the record, under oath. With relief. By contrast, Rumsfeld was REQUIRED, under federal law, to medically test every soldier to be deployed in Iraq, to establish a baseline. There was clearly enough time to do so in the run-up to this invasion. He passed out a questionaire, which to soldiers is equivalent to offering to measure their manliness if they answer with anything other than 'oo rah.' More of that faith-based science. Rumsfeld broke the law, and no doubt joked about it many times. It's equivalent to "Bring it on," a callous and evil proclamation, coming from a non-combatant, non-combat vet. Kerry, a combat vet, would never have said that. The Bush admin. has reduced the period of time soldiers can report combat injuries to two years, which is utterly insufficient based on all historical evidence. Sunday a returned vet gone awol shot two cops, killing one, and died himself a few hours later, shot down. Since he was AWOL, he didn't have any medical for his actual condition. How did a soldier get reduced to being shot down on a street in his home town, because he didn't want to participate in Bush's McInvasion? What would that soldier have told Kerry? Rumsfeld turned off his hearing aid a long time ago. "I'm an old man, and it's early in the morning." No, Donald, it's the middle of Winter, and you have dishonored the troops long enough. --

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#68)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 04:46:48 AM EST
    Another thing you don't know. We all know, as do you, that most of the Winter Soldier testimony was fraudulent. BTW, we also know what a free-fire zone was. It's what a battlefield was in any other war. You guys think you're the only ones who know this stuff and you can keep bullstuffing the rest of us because, you think, we only know what you tell us. Wrong.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:14:44 AM EST
    Congrats, J4564, you have been granted acceptance in an exclusive club that not just any poster here can attain. Like all great things, our posts are unique on this blog in being both rare and beautiful. Ours is the condition to which most here can only aspire. Take care not to abuse it..

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 07:10:57 AM EST
    See you, J4. Have a nice time at the party. On topic: might be a good time to be leaving CBS or any of the corporate media industry. Real news and journalism will continue to be a valuable commodity. Look at what Izzy Stone did when he lost the ability to communicate through the corporate media.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:03:06 AM EST
    Richard Aubrey, You guys think you're the only ones who know this stuff and you can keep bullstuffing the rest of us because, you think, we only know what you tell us. Wrong I tried check your claim by googling up "winter soldier fraudulent" for some facts. Except for the occasional right wing slur page, I came up very empty handed. So what´s your source? Don´t say it´s Ann Coulter..

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#73)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:11:26 AM EST
    Nope, IM, it's the investigation of the accusations. The accusers proved to have never been in Viet Nam, or never to have been in combat. In one or two cases, they were not who they said they were, having appropriated the name of a real soldier. The reason that Congress couldn't find anything out on the accusations, nor the military, is that these guys weren't who they claimed to be and hadn't been where they claimed to have been or been there at the time claimed. hey were no help in investigations. See also "Stolen Valor". This was, suprisingly, in the normal news, although only briefly.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:17:26 AM EST
    You go ahead and party, J4. Just like the folks in Poe's "Mask of the Red Death". They tried to shut the world out - to define their own reality. And guess what. Destruction came from within. For now, enjoy your dancing on the graves of our progressive hopes. When you finally figure out that the emperor has no clothes you had better get your ass back here to accept responsibility for your unwillingness to think for yourself and the suffering it has brought to so many. RA - The report was not accurate but Kerry didn't know that at the time. He took a moral stand and fought for "the last soldier we ask to die for a mistake". The rest of your posting descends into drool and blather. You have every right to disagree with the stand Kerry took after the war. However he correctly (in my opinion) understood the different obligations military and civilian citizens have to serve their country... the former is oblibgated to blindly obey their commander in chief and the latter is duty bound to ensure our troops are sent into harms way for good reason. The fact that it wasn't for good reason doesn't lessen the contribution they made - however, knowing a number of Nam Vets, I understand that many feel the sacrifices they and their comrades-in-arms made are belittled by talk of an unjust war (which I think makes my point of why civilian citizens should be more responsible). Common sense and many sources tell us that actions constituting war crimes happen every day in the heat of battle (Ref: Mi Lei). I believe Kerry's point is that soldiers are damaged and even destroyed by actions they witness and participate in during the heat of battle - some commit acts of cruelty and barbarism that they are never able to come to terms with. Kerry wasn't trying to get soldiers prosecuted for these actions (like your wonderful Rumsfeld and Bush. He was fighting for soldiers who were being damaged by bad American Policies (See Rumsfeld and Viet Nam). So go party at your inaugural and enjoy your entree. The just deserts have yet to arrive.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#75)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:32:24 AM EST
    MFox, so Kerry was wrong. Okay, we've got that taken care of. He "believed", which covers a multitude of sins. He met with the VC and Hanoi while a Naval officer. There is no way he could "believe" if he had the experience he claimed to have had, since he would have seen it not happening. He was a liar from the get-go. Plenty of reason for veterans to be annoyed.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#76)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:36:13 AM EST
    “They tried to shut the world out - to define their own reality. And guess what. Destruction came from within.” This is remarkably descriptive of my democrat friends who, on Nov. 2, were touting Zogby’s and early exit polls as the backlash of republican policies. Strangely, the polls I had been following for months had called the election (accurate to the state) for Bush. While they were busy clucking their tongues over Bush poor performance and his (patently ridiculous) use of radios in the debates I saw little effect on public opinion; only slight polling changes. And in the face of recent election results, more conspiratorial whisperings; stolen elections, etc. Will ‘progressives’ ever accept that the country, and not just ‘red states’, has taken one step to the right?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#77)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:53:09 AM EST
    Oh, yeah. Regarding the Winter Soldier nonsense; That was one of the biggest contributors to the Vietvet as crazed, drugged-out babykiller you lefties loved to peddle. One moron senator--but I repeat myself--had the entire thing put into the Congressional record, so it could be true for all eternity. The vets should be grateful for that?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 09:27:59 AM EST
    J4564 - I took a swipe at you back up the thread for attacking Kerry's courage, as I was scolding those who question Bush's. Now you insult our hostess with a most vulgar comment. You are fairly new here, but if you ask, you will find that anyone can tell you that I have been a most staunch defender of Bush, the war on terror and the military. And being outnumbered, I sometimes think I need some help. But, I do not need help from people such as yourself who exhibit the manners of a middle school bully away from home the first time. As for the election... a high school football coach told me years ago after I had made a tackle and was running around excitedly. "Boy, show some class. Act like you've tackled someone before." It was very good advice. Take it.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 09:28:03 AM EST
    I have spent a fair amount of time at the Boston V.A. It is sad to say that a lot of Vets are crazed (they call that floor the "flight deck", a lot are drugged out and, unfortunately, many have committed atrocities like killing babies, that they are haunted and changed forever by. A lot of Vietnam Vets maybe just drink and smoke a lot. Many are simply divorced or in jail because of problems adjusting back into polite society. These are not bad men, throwaways, exceptions to the rule. They are the boys that parents raised with high hopes. They did their duty and came back to nothing because there was no honor in their mission. I say - if Kerry's haranguing kept one boy off the "flight deck" thirty years later and interrupted Nixon and McNamara's costly ego trip, then good for him - I'm sure that one mother is grateful.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 09:40:10 AM EST
    Taken out of context, pigwiggle, my quote could certainly be interpreted in a number of ways - even ways that are completely off subject. This comment was inspired by the words of J4;
    Only 9 more days until we party again! See you at the inaugural!
    Which comments offend me greatly as they verify my suspicion that some Republicans are so happy to be in power they have considered the last four years a party and the inauguration ($40M dollars, I think?) the opening night of round two. Again, I hope y'all won't cut and run when the other shoe drops.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 09:52:50 AM EST
    Mfox writes - "They did their duty and came back to nothing because there was no honor in their mission." How dare you. The honor was in the mission itself, not in medals or "kills" or recognition. To imply that those who have suffered and now have problems do so because of a bad conscience is totally disgusting. Can you not let them spend their last years in what peace they can find? Must you again try and use them for political gain? RA writes "Plenty of reason for veterans to be annoyed" There are times when you are the master of understatement. Paul In LA writes - "Sunday a returned vet gone awol shot two cops, killing one, and died himself a few hours later, shot down. Since he was AWOL, he didn't have any medical for his actual condition. How did a soldier get reduced to being shot down on a street in his home town, because he didn't want to participate in Bush's McInvasion" Paul, you have no way of knowing his medical condition. If you do, provide a link. You also call him a "returned" vet. Then you close by saying he didn't want to particapte in Bush's war. Which is it? Or are you just guilding the lily? Making things up?

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    Now you insult our hostess with a most vulgar comment. Hey PPJ, This thread started on the subject of the release of the CBS investigation. If you read from start to finish, it covers a wide range of topics. Talk Left deleted my post which basically refuted what mfox was saying about 3 posts above mine (I mentioned that most of the people in Kerry's unit felt he was unfit for command, how he was running his campaign based on 4 months from 30 years ago, etc.). They single me out because I list facts that can't be refuted(by the way, the post that got me limited to 4 per day was about Kerry too, must be sensitive about Kerry, I guess cuz he is pretty hard to defend when confronted with his record), but take a look at how many other posts are not about the release of the CBS investigation, but they delete mine. For me to get a little angry and insult our gracious host for that is within reason. Why don't you do a little reading and know what your talking about before you dispense your advise. I played football too, I remember one time we beat a team who's coach had discounted us(in a subtle way, he said something like "once we get past Green, we....") in the paper. When we won that game, we celebrated right there on the field, but we waited till we won the GAME, not after the 1st quarter. So you can stick your self-riteousness up your ass. Oh, and one more thing: Only 9 more days until we party again! See you at the inaugural!

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#83)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 10:05:30 AM EST
    Many years ago, the Michigan State Police held a multi-department exercise featuring a hostage-taking sniper. For backstory, they got a prof from MSU who made this guy a crazed, drugged-up Vietvet. I talked to the prof afterwards and asked why he did this. He said he figured everybody knew the reality of Vietvets. I challenged him to provide proof, which he admitted he had not bothered with, being captured by the lefties' conventional wisdom. He could have used the Black Panthers, who were actually killing people at the time, or some other group, but he chose to not choose to look at his notions of truth. He was a reasonable guy and admitted he wouldn't do that again. Some years later, I mentioned to a neighbor that I was having trouble phoning an old Army buddy. It was before many people had answering machines and the thing would ring off the hook any time of the day or week. Turned out to be a substation problem. My neighbor asked if the guy had been to Viet Nam. He had. "Drug dealer," said my neighbor. This guy, by the way, is an engineer with several advanced degrees. It never occurred to him to wonder if a drug dealer who doesn't answer his phone will deal many drugs. He had the conventional wisdom bad. I didn't say anything. As a fraternity brother observed at a reunion, it takes about fourteen seconds at a party to tell who served and who not to bother with. My neighbor's opinion on the subject has all the weight of rat poop. The lefties thought the vets and those who know and love them are supposed to either forget this or eat it up like good little proles at the orders of their superiors. See the election of 2004.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 10:06:03 AM EST
    J J4564, You're out of here. Find another blog. Your last sexist personal insult to me was the final straw. Glad to see you go.

    Re: 4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 10:07:09 AM EST
    Hey Talk Left -[insult deleted]

    4 CBS Guards Fired Over Rather Report | 84 comments (84 topical)