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Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader

Testimony began today in the military trial of Charles Graner, the alleged ringleader of the guards who abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. His lawyer today said the abuse was acceptable. Who's he kidding?

Graner's attorney said piling naked prisoners into pyramids and leading them by a leash were acceptable methods of prisoner control. He compared this to pyramids made by cheerleaders at sports events and parents putting tethers on toddlers.

"Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year. Is that torture?" Guy Womack, Graner's attorney, said in opening arguments to the 10-member U.S. military jury at the reservist's court-martial.

The prosecutors trotted out their cooperating co-abusers today--Ivan Frederick was another baddie. He got an 8 year sentence in exchange for agreeing to testify against Graner.

Prosecutors also presented shocking new videos and photos from Abu Ghraib prison, including forced group masturbation....After prosecutors screened grainy video that was previously not made public showing naked and hooded Iraqi male prisoners masturbating, Frederick said Graner and England joked about the incident.

"He (Graner) said something to the fact that it was a present for her birthday," said Frederick, who, like Graner, was also a prison guard in civilian life. Frederick recounted several occasions on which Graner hit prisoners, including once when he knocked out a man before piling him and others into a naked human pyramid. "He shook his hand and said 'damn, that hurt'," Frederick said.

Among misdeeds Frederick owned up to in his case was staging a mock execution of a prisoner.

Guy Womack, Graner's attorney, today confirmed yesterday's report that Graner will testify. How will Mr. Womack or Mr. Graner justify this:

Major Michael Holley, the chief prosecutor, said Graner beat a prisoner with a baton until the Iraqi begged for death, and forced men "to simulate fellatio".

Will they argue that sexual abuse also is an acceptable means of treating prisoners?

In the event Graner's partner in crime and sexcapades, Lynndie England, does not testify, I hope the prosectors find another witness to corroborate some of her allegations, particularly this one:

[Graner] applied needle and thread to prisoners after beating them. "Cpl. Graner would personally stitch up detainees if the wound weren't too bad," she said. "He would take pictures of his work. One particular incident Cpl. Graner ran a former Iraqi general into a wall and split his lip. Cpl. Graner stitched up his lip."

Graner is fortunate that allegations of prior unrelated acts of violence from his prison guard days won't be admitted. More here from Nicholas Yarris, the Pennsylvania death row inmate who was exonerated by DNA evidence and released from prison after serving 22 years. Graner was a guard at his prison:

According to Yarris, Graner was responsible for moving prisoners within the facility and was "violent, abusive, arrogant and mean-spirited" toward Yarris and other inmates. Yarris said he knew of several instances in which Graner was involved in physically assaulting prisoners. Yarris also states that Graner was reprimanded by his superiors on several occasions and was disliked by both prisoners and other prison employees. Upon learning that Graner - a reservist called to active duty in Iraq in May 2003 who receives a $500 per month stipend from the DOC - was given a supervisory role at Abu Ghraib based on his civilian training and experience in Pennsylvania, Yarris expressed disgust.

"He was at the bottom level of prison guards," Yarris states, "so he must've done a good job bragging to the military about what a 'big shot' he was at [SCI-]Greene." Yarris also confirmed that, prior to being taken out of their cells, prisoners held in Administrative Custody at SCI-Greene were forced to strip naked in front of the transport team, lift their genitals, and bend over for a visual "inspection." The sexual humiliation of the prisoners at SCI-Greene is eerily similar to the tactics used by military personnel under Graner's supervision against Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

See this press release for more details of allegations against Graner as a state-side prison guard.

Query: If Graner testifies in his defense, and says he had misgivings about the abuse but thought he had to follow orders, could Yarris be a rebuttal witness to impeach his credibility?

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    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#1)
    by ras on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 07:17:38 PM EST
    Mudville Gazette has an excellent roundup on the details of Abu Ghraib, in the form of a simple test. It's an excellent way to refresh your memory on the details of what happened. e.g.
    Throughout Fall 2003 SSg Ivan Frederick, a guard at Abu Ghraib, was continuously emailing his concerns about conditions home to his family, but higher ups ignored them. True or False?


    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 07:20:06 PM EST
    "Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year. Is that torture?" Please tell me this is just a sick joke.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#3)
    by paige on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 07:21:14 PM EST
    Are cheerleaders stripped naked before they form a pyramid? Are cheerleaders coerced via threats of bodily harm to form their pyramid? Are there really lawyers who cannot see the difference between cheerleaders and what happened at Abu Ghraib?

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 07:32:13 PM EST
    Jon Stewart.....release the comic hounds.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 07:52:41 PM EST
    According to Freeper-logic, it's too bad that Hitler wasn't around during these more-permissive torturing times. A. Coulter says as much in her new book, "Calling Him Hitler: How Violent American Liberals With Guns Made a Good German Take His Own Life." See the walruses tears? He's so, burp, sorry. --

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#6)
    by cp on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 08:21:39 PM EST
    did you see this guy on cnn, on his way to the courthouse? he looks like a pudgy 16 year-old, with glasses.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#7)
    by Al on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 09:13:10 PM EST
    Graner is of course a sick b**ard, and his lawyer is another, but we should not think that's all Abu Ghraib was, the insane excesses of a few sick b**ards. The abuse was systematic, and there is a chain of responsibility that leads all the way to the Pentagon and the White House. There are sick b**ards much higher up the chain who look at the pictures and are reminded of cheerleaders.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#8)
    by Linkmeister on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 10:06:27 PM EST
    I don't really think Bush had anything to do with ordering any of this (I think it probably stopped at Cabinet-level), but one does see "cheerleader" and remember what he was at Andover or Yale.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:08:22 PM EST
    You don't think so? What about the Hanging Governor of Texas haven't you been noticing? Must be nice to have such a rosy view of the little dictator. Do you have to take much heroin to keep your worldview intact? --

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 05:53:16 AM EST
    I don't see him winning any hearts and minds with that argument.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:15:25 AM EST
    i noticed bush getting misty-eyed when he saw the human pyramid photos. little did i realize it was just nostalgia for his cheerleading days.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:18:31 AM EST
    That explains why Trent Lott wasn't so bothered by this. He used to be a cheerleader!

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 07:16:10 AM EST
    What a jello defense. Not torture, just cheerleading, client ordered to perform such cheerleading drills despite personal misgivings, under direct order performs said cheerleading, laughing and smiling. And punching. Which is it?

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:05:04 AM EST
    Paul in LA:- Tone it down, would you? Try reading people's responses over a long period of time before you judge what their view is and launch an attack. Linkmeister may not be as rabidly anti-Bush as you are, but he/she hardly has a rose-tinted view of the administration.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:57:52 AM EST
    et al - It is obvious that his lawyer is going to say that "it was not torture, but maybe it was abuse." And, if the government calls that torture, the defense may get away with it, unless abuse is also a charge. Torture: "nguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain 2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure. Personally, I'd give him five years and throw him out of the army for abuse and stupidity. But not torture. Let's don't invent new meanings for words or else we'll never be able to communicate.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#16)
    by Adept Havelock on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 09:15:03 AM EST
    Here's a nice litmus test to differentiate "torture" from "abuse". Imagine that it was YOUR daughter or son, captured by a foreign power, and subjected to the same treatment, and have it witnessed by the entire world. Then tell me it's not such a big deal. Spare me the tired old "but the behead people" argument or "it's the medias fault". We should not base our conduct on the actions of barbarians, nor should we blame the media for reporting what people did.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 10:04:29 AM EST
    Jim: Let's don't invent new meanings for words or else we'll never be able to communicate. Agreed, Jim. Quit trying to claim that torture isn't torture - we'll never be able to communicate with you again, and that would be terrible.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#18)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 10:52:19 AM EST
    Let's presume you are given the choice of having your daughter participate nude in a multi-level pileup or have her eardrums punctured by some sadist with hot paper clip. Tell me you don't know the difference. I don't know if the lawyer's doing a good job or not, since I'm not there, but, being defense lawyers, aren't you used to making up nonsense when you have nothing to go on? This guy is part of your fraternity, doing nothing you wouldn't do. Apparently, Graner hired a sillyvilian, and got what he paid for. I don't know that this is going to fly with soldiers. On the other hand, soldiers aren't going to let you make abuse into torture. Remember the paper clip.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 10:59:23 AM EST
    Can we at least all agree that the guys on the bottom of the pyramid were being tortured (not having had the benefit of practice afforded "real" cheerleaders)?

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#20)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 11:04:06 AM EST
    I dunno, Mfox. I've never been a cheerleader, but I've had to support that kind of weight. It was great--when it was over--but not anything like a kick in the groin or the red-hot paperclip. Several people have made the point that you lefties, in your perennial quest to punch up the numbers are going to haul in all kinds of stuff as "torture". As you are doing. The result will be that your opponents will be able to point to milktoast stuff you are trying to get over on the rest of us in your insane quest, thereby burying the incidents of real torture. Think. Ah, why do I bother.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 11:11:42 AM EST
    Richard, How predictably sexist of you - assuming for your supposed "daughter" what she would consider torture vs. "just abuse". And upon returning home from her ordeal she would hear from you "Suck it up honey - it's not like they were sticking hot paperclips in your ears" In fact, may I forward this line to be used when Iraqi sons, husbands and fathers return home (if ever)?
    being defense lawyers, aren't you used to making up nonsense when you have nothing to go on? This guy is part of your fraternity, doing nothing you wouldn't do.
    Just out of curiosity, your statement purports that all defendants are guilty and that all defense lawyers lie to "get them off". Given that basic premise, I don't understand why you are even acknowledged as a person interested in discourse on this site. Perhaps, Richard, you would like to volunteer to do some testing on interrogation techniques then give us all feedback about what's torture (we'll make sure to waterboard you a few times - just to make sure your ears are clean of course!) and what isn't. The CIA has a training facility where they condition new agents, using many of the White House approved techniques, to understand that they can be broken very quickly. I might just be able to talk Dan Rather into giving you a little air time!

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 11:13:18 AM EST
    Think. Ah, why do I bother.
    You took the words out of my mouth, Richard. Please don't bother.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 11:16:22 AM EST
    Adept - And we should not try and change the meaning of words. Torture is torture. Abuse is abuse. And why do you bring up totally unrelated subjects? Dearest No Name - Since you are too frightened to identify yourself, we can't communicate now.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#24)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 11:44:01 AM EST
    Mfox. You make my point. You are deliberately conflating two separate topics in order to punch up your numbers and you are unaware that others will not buy it, will see through it. That weakens any real case you might have about real torture. Your meanspirited attack on me and my putative daughter might sound clever to you but it actually gives you away. You have nothing to stand on. And if I were in that situation, I would prefer my daughter do the pile. I know the difference. So do you, but you can't afford to admit it. I've had some interrogation training, btw. Have you heard of a TA312?

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 01:18:14 PM EST
    Richard, Nothing personal, but from your political views and ability to dehumanize and invalidate your opposition without using any logic whatsoever, I hope for the Iraqi civilian populace and any futher American POW's that you are not representative of interrogators on the ground.
    You are deliberately conflating two separate topics in order to punch up your numbers and you are unaware that others will not buy it, will see through it. That weakens any real case you might have about real torture
    Please clarify, specifically about what two separate topics you are referring to. Do you mean abuse of prisoners and torture of prisoners? If that's what you're referring to, could you please SPECIFICALLY clarify for me (bearing in mind my pesky need to deliniation between fact and opinion)how these are separate and how I have conflagerated (sic) them? Also, spare me your gruntspeak. As far as I can tell on Google a TA312 is some kind of Military phone. Could you also elaborate on your training and mention how knowing what a TA312 is gives you an authoritative edge over the rest of us in determining what is abuse and what is torture. As far as I'm concerned (and the prisoner is concerned) they are not on a linear spectrum, but overlap. Abuse is unsanctioned physical and/or mental injury to a prisoner, torture is government sanctioned commission of the same. Difference to the prisoner? Zippo.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#26)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 02:16:14 PM EST
    Mfox. Torture and abuse differ and if you were the victim, you'd have no trouble figuring out which was preferable. Government sponsorship is irrelevant. Abuse includes, by your definition, and by the definitions being thrown around in various military discussions, a shove or sleep deprivation. Torture is the infliction of terrible pain sometimes including irreversible trauma to the body (tightening a cord around the skull so that the eyeballs pop out). Mixing the two in order to make the thing look worse results in making it look kind of mushy, thereby making it harder to address the real issue of real torture. There is probably a gray area in between. The Pepsi Challenge, shooting fizz up your nose hurts like hell but does not damage. The TA312. In the high and far-off days, best beloved, when the elephant's nose was short and squidgy.... Um. Not quite that far back. The TA312 is what is known as a sound-power phone. The vibrations of the voice on a diaphragm linked to a piezolectric crystal generates enough juice to carry the voice several miles over wire. No matter how loudly you yell, you can't ring the bell. For that, there's a little crank generator. Unhook the wires, split them and attach one to each ear lobe and crank away. The boys wanted us to be aware of reasons not to be captured by the VC. Use of the TA312 was one of the easy ones we could expect. So, yes, I've had some experience. One guy in my squad broke loose and went out through the wall of the hut. "Hey, you're simulated captured." "Up yours. I'm simulated escaped."

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 03:22:41 PM EST
    Abuse includes, by your definition, and by the definitions being thrown around in various military discussions, a shove or sleep deprivation.
    Where did I say that?? Where in my many postings today did I even use the words "shove" or "sleep deprivation" In which category, abuse or torture do you put the following? Submersion in water short of drowning. The TA312 shocks you mentioned earlier. Sensory deprivation Stress Positions for more than 24 hours. Having a gun held to your head and the trigger pulled "russian roulette" style. Being imprisoned in an underground hole or a pit filled with water. Forcing a prisoner to eat feces from a toilet Rape (possibly enjoyable by your standards) Interrogations that include the threat of death to you and your family members. ---------------------- I have been trying to remember all day what show (Charlie Rose?) I saw a CIA operative interviewed the other night who takes quite the opposite opinion of you, Richard, in that he claims irreparable damage has been done to trainees and senior officers alike who couldn't handle the most rudimentary abuse (i.e. sens. dep.) and, to paraphrase him - 'even though they knew they were in friendly hands this fact becomes lost quickly and [he's] seen senior officers run for the phone to call the police in their disorientation and fear. He stated definitively that only inexperienced interrogators would even hope that these tactics would result in information gathering and that even the most mild sounding techniques produced lasting damage.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 04:03:21 PM EST
    No Jim, they wouldn´t get away with it Torture per definiton: extreme mental distress Good thing you´re not a lawyer..

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 04:18:01 PM EST
    People like Richard Aubrey and Poker Player (AKA Jim) maybe should be stacked on a pyramid. Then just maybe they'll see the light!

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#30)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:03:06 PM EST
    If I had to choose between pyramiding and fingernail pulling, I'd choose the former, and so would you. If you had been paying attention, you would know that some of the so-called torture includes shoves and shouting. My point is that if you pull this stuff in in order to punch up your numbers, you will be remembered as the folks who think being shoved or shouted at or made to shiver for a day is "torture", thus ruining your chance to make your point about real torture. I've heard the assertion that torture doesn't work. There's a story from the Paris version of the Inquisition. Torturers, probably annoyed at the demeaning of their honorable profession, called in the Bishop of Paris and tortured the next victim on the schedule into accusing the bish of various heterodoxies. No record of whether the bish got the point. That's one side of the argument, but the point was that the answer they demanded was made known to the victim first. In "Dungeon, Fire, and Sword", there is a quote from one of the Templars being tortured by Phillip the Fair. The howls of his compatriots convinced him to "accuse Jesus Christ" if that would save him. But in this case, the issue was not accusing Jesus Christ but fessing up the location of the fabled treasure of the Templars. Howsomever, the use of torture for information has been a perennial. It's hard to believe that it never works, if people have been at it for millenia. There is a book, I believe called, "Count Five and Die" which recounts an Allied deception scheme. The Allies trained some Resistance leaders to be prepared to aid the invasion of France at the wrong time and place, and then arranged that they fell into German hands. The Allies would have been counting on the skill of the Gestapo torturers or their plans would have been wasted. So I am not sure that torture never works. Or were the Allies wrong? As to damage, some people are damaged and some are not. Some are changed and thirty years later you don't know what the change was because that path forked so long ago.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:06:58 PM EST
    Further thought: If you knew where an IED was placed and the guards threatened to do something unspeakable to your daughter, again, in front of you, would you tell? I bet it would work.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:17:07 PM EST
    My point is that if you pull this stuff in in order to punch up your numbers, you will be remembered as the folks who think being shoved or shouted at or made to shiver for a day is "torture", thus ruining your chance to make your point about real torture. And should it meet your definition of "real torture", then I suspect you would try to make the point that it was perfectly justifiable under the circumstances.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#33)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:20:23 PM EST
    Well, Ernesto, your heroes have never scrupled at torture and all I hear from guys like you is something about omelets. Or collaborators. You can't make a collaborator without breaking an omelet. No. You can collaborate without omeleting. Um. Nobody really wants to make a collaborator. Jeez. This is confusing.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:23:15 PM EST
    From dictionary.com tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr) n. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense. Something causing severe pain or anguish. (emphasis added) In other words, it doesn't have to be physical pain to be torture. For example, being strapped down and forced to watch videos of Rush Limbaugh having sex with Ann Coulter. Sorry for that visual image.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 06:45:24 PM EST
    Reading Richard Aubrey's rantings definitely qualifies as torture under the mental pain/anguish definition given above.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#36)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 08:25:56 PM EST
    Class, Ernesto. I had thought the Limbaugh/Coulter was sixth-gradish and not going to be beaten, then along comes Ernesto.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#37)
    by Linkmeister on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 10:39:42 PM EST
    Matt W, thanks for the defense up there a ways. Paul in LA, I don't think Bush knew details simply because he and his crowd would want "plausible deniability" for him, that's all.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jan 11, 2005 at 11:08:53 PM EST
    I don't think Bush knew details simply because he and his crowd would want "plausible deniability" for him, that's all. He has that same aura of Ronald Reagan, where even if he knew all the details you figure he's just too far removed from reality to actually be held accountable. Some folks call this teflon.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 12, 2005 at 07:20:53 AM EST
    Not to beleaguer the point, Richard, but your examples are extreme, farfetched, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, assume that we are trying to get info. that actually exists from persons who possess it. You completely ignored my examples and went back to "if I was asked to pick". *guffaw* yeah, that's real. You see, on TV, when Andy Sipowitz strong arms someone (in pretend life), to discover the cute child (pretend) trapped with minutes to breath (in their pretend confinement), the writer (of the pretend story) arranges for this person to be guilty so Andy (and Clint, and John Wayne) look like bad guys who are really good (pretend) guys. When people are capriciously pulled off the street of their own country by an occupying force, held without charge, held without contact with family, etc., how can you possibly justify abusing/torturing (you pick) them all to possibly get information which they very possibly don't have to hypothetically save someone who only hypothetically exists? Your definition of torture is much narrower than even the dictionary definition. And your fantasy examples are unsupportable.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 12, 2005 at 08:12:44 AM EST
    When I went to UT (university of Texas), the hounds, er, the frat boys grabbed this kid, drug him off the street and took him to their frat house, where some of them sodomized him while the others stood around the keg. When I tried to research it 20 years later, all records of this event (which made front page headlines in the Daily Texan) had been erased. I talked to several UT alumns and others who obviously should have remembered this event taking place, but all they could remember the fraternity boys every doing was "throwing a few eggs." The frats have been in power for too long. They must be brought down.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#41)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 12, 2005 at 08:20:03 AM EST
    Mfox, you missed the point, again. I am not justifying torture. I am trying to make the case that the case against real torture will be damaged if you insist in hauling in other items which don't qualify as torture. There is plenty to go on without cooking the books. If you follow the lefty instinct to cook the books, you will only damage your own case. The examples I make are to demonstrate that reasonable people are not going to equate procedures of different intensity just because you get hysterical about it.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 12, 2005 at 04:42:35 PM EST
    "There is plenty to go on without cooking the books. If you follow the lefty instinct to cook the books, you will only damage your own case." --RA "I feel terrible about what happened to these detainees. They are human beings, they were in U.S. custody, our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't. That was wrong," Rumsfeld said" --Donald Bloodthirsty Rumsfeld "The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience. We're talking about rape and murder." --Republican Senator Lindsay Graham "Invade their countries, kill their leaders, and forceably convert them to Christianity." -- Ann 'Calling Him Hitler' Coulter --

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#43)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 12, 2005 at 05:30:21 PM EST
    Paul in LA. After reading your post on the Stewart case, I hesitate to ask what's your point here. You go ahead and cook the books if you wish. You'll only take the focus out of your effort. But you guys can't give up "lying for justice", can you? Even though you know everybody knows you're lying, you can't give it up. That's pathological.

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 12, 2005 at 05:46:50 PM EST
    The point is simple, Richard. You are spreading red herrings as fast as you can, and maybe that helps you hold your worldview together. Even Goering had to lie to himself about his crimes. So I posted three quotations from NON-'LEFTIST' sources so you could at least glimpse, for fleeting moment, how exactly insane you are. "Pathological"? George Bush is certifiable, can't admit a mistake, spreads hatred with his butter knife, has killed a huge number of innocent people, in a campaign BASED on lies, and you want to attack 'leftists.' I might have been a leftist for about ten minutes while I was 12 years old, as a member of SDS. Since that time I've been a loyal, voting Liberal Democrat. I am NOT a leftist, but I am a scholar, and facts are my business. So if you want to present some facts, then you might get a discussion. But instead, you are just the latest in a long line of smelly fish mongers, so poorly informed by your right-wing media sources that you don't even recognize REBUTTAL from your own side. --

    Re: Charles Graner: Just Like a Cheerleader (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 02:21:30 PM EST
    Boy, that Richard Aubrey is a cut-up, isn't he? Or sick. No wonder the US's name has gone down the toilet. It's people like President George A Buse that nurtures people like Richie-baby.