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Is Canada the Answer?

By TChris, Section Elections
Posted on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 07:50:11 AM EST
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by TChris

Question: If reasonable Americans get so fed up with the Bush administration that they move to Canada, who will be left to vote the rascals out?

Visits to the Canadian government's immigration website increased substantially after Bush's reelection.

Yet immigration lawyers say that Americans are not just making inquiries and that more are pursuing a move above the 49th parallel, fed up with a country they see drifting persistently to the right and abandoning the principles of tolerance, compassion and peaceful idealism they felt once defined the nation.

America is in no danger of emptying out. But even a small loss of residents, many of whom cite a deep sense of political despair, is a significant event in the life of a nation that thinks of itself as a place to escape to.

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    Is Canada the Answer? | 81 comments (81 topical)
    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#1)
    by David on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 08:48:54 AM EST
    We were thinking of moving to Canada eventually, even before Bush stole the White House the first time. Now we're wondering how soon we can manage to go. Certainly, the US needs liberal voters. But if the bad guys control the vote counting, what difference will it make if liberals stay and vote here or give up and leave? At what point does one have to throw up one's hands and give up? I used to live in South Africa, and the same argument went on there. Liberal voters gave up and left in droves. Perhaps if they had stayed, Apartheid would have ended sooner. I honestly don't know.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 08:55:29 AM EST
    Remember all the muck about liberals being unpatriotic...wonder where they got that idea from Come to Flrorida in the winter if you want to know what it's like to live in Canada (without the snow of course).

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:15:44 AM EST
    et al..... If all the people left that threatened to leave, things would be much better here. See ya.....

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:16:30 AM EST
    The best are moving, and the worst are moving in, "the bush plan."

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:33:30 AM EST
    et al - I believe everyone should get, as much as possible, what they want. If they want to leave, good luck, God bless and don't bother to write! But, in the meantime, they should quit threatening to do so. They are starting to sound like petulant teenagers.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:36:13 AM EST
    See ya! My offer stands: First Class One Way ticket on American airlines if you promise to never come back. Heck, I'll even pay the security fees. -C

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:51:44 AM EST
    we don't want a whole lot of foreigners flooding from the south.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:54:51 AM EST
    Question: If reasonable Americans get so fed up with the Bush administration that they move to Canada, who will be left to vote the rascals out?
     Answer: Nobody....exactly the way we want it.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:59:45 AM EST
    from my previous post - sorry, I meant to add that immigrants from foreign countries sometimes bring their collective issues and cultural problems with them to Canada. like guns, dim witted credulity and paranoia. we really should be wary of you. sorry.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:07:12 AM EST
    Does anyone know how many Canadians move to the U.S. versus U.S. citizens moving to Canada? IIRC there is a problem with highly paid professionals leaving Canada for the U.S.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:44:47 AM EST
    The Left, as usual, all talk and, alas, no action. We'll miss ya...

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#12)
    by ras on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:45:48 AM EST
    Here in Canada today the temperature was the usual -40 throughout the country as we trooped to church to hear how sex is wrong and gays should be converted. We then went to our local townhall meetings and agreed to make marijuana an even worse felony than it already is, eliminate all forms of welfare, and put symbolic stars and stripes on our flag before returning tomorrow to our non-unionized jobs in the factories. Y'all come see us now, y'hear!

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:02:27 AM EST
    Canada? No? Disaffected Americans need to do better than that to escape the Dark Ages now known as Bushco. I'd suggest a "wormhole" that injects them into a parallel universe.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:03:58 AM EST
    I'm a highly-paid professional, a Canadian working in the USA for 6+ years, currently starting to sell my house as preparation for traveling and resettling in Canada. The callous disregard shown by Bush partisans for the situation of their fellow citizens who feel that their country is slipping away from them is sickening, but not surprising. I cannot imagine the pain of feeling that the country that has formed your identity is becoming a dangerous stranger to you. I suppose that the crybabies and professional victims on the right wing pretend that this is how they felt during the Clinton interregnum, but that's just the usual ginned-up moral equivalency those folks traffic in. Citizens who revel in the genuine misery and alienation of their fellow citizens are morally sick. This is a symptom of the seemingly permanent loss of bipartisanship and honest governance in the USA, and such it is not something to celebrate, even if you have political differences with those who leave. George W. Bush is America's suicide note.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:06:49 AM EST
    I'm a highly-paid professional, a "Canadian working in the USA for 6+ years, currently starting to sell my house as preparation for traveling and resettling in Canada." If you work really, really super hard when you get back there, you can give even more of your money to the government. Go for it!!!!

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:29:40 AM EST
    Thus MB: If you work really, really super hard when you get back there, you can give even more of your money to the government. Go for it!!!! Well, at the risk of sounding sanctimonious, at least my tax dollars won't be paying for an illegal war of choice and thousands of slaughtered innocent victims and needlessly dead American citizens. That ought to give you a small twinge where the conscience ought to be, no? Some Americans consider low taxes to be a bargain, no matter what brutality those taxes are subsidizing in their name. Syphilis of the soul.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:34:57 AM EST
    "Well, at the risk of sounding sanctimonious, at least my tax dollars won't be paying for an illegal war of choice and thousands of slaughtered innocent victims and needlessly dead American citizens. That ought to give you a small twinge where the conscience ought to be, no?" Spit on the hand that protects you, how Canadian of you....

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:44:10 AM EST
    Concept A...... at least my tax dollars won't be paying for an illegal war of choice and thousands of slaughtered innocent victims and needlessly dead American citizens. No, as a tax payer here in the US, a good portion of your money goes to protect our neighbors to the North (YOU) that don't have to field an army/air force because we here in the US do that for you. Good deal for all you Canucks huh?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:45:58 AM EST
    yeah, and he better be nice to us on the way out or we won't let come back in for the numerous surgeries he'll probably need over the course of his life (the most important of which for this professional, I would bet anything, won't be done in Canada).

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:49:03 AM EST
    I hate to say this, but anyone thinking that Canada will be a refuge for long is not aware of certain trends and policies in both Canada and the US which would seem to be moving to de facto annexation of Canada sometime in the very near future: Is the Annexation of Canada part of Bush's Military Agenda? Where I work, I see the maps mentioned in this article in quite a few offices where the contractors work with the military. The entirety of Canada is covered by NORTHCOM green. (How many Canadians know about this? Anybody ask them how they feel about it?) And NORAD recently eliminated the Canadian counterpart for air defense; it's held solely by an American, now, where once it was a joint command. Canadians, and those with Canuck friends, your thoughts on this, please.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 12:03:49 PM EST
    B.B., I guess you had better let these folks know they don't exist.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 12:27:40 PM EST
    Contempt is all you folks can express? You know, it's fun to play us-n-them and get all patriotic and stuff, but at the end of the day you have to be able to have some pride in yourself and in your country. I guess it makes things easier if you can dimiss what I say as the whining of just another typical Canadian. Then you don't have to think about what it might really be like to have lived in a different country for over a decade, to have gained a degree there, settled into a good job, bought a house, put down some roots, etc., only to have to face the sad fact that your adopted country is turning ugly and carnivorous; and furthermore that there seems to be a mass movement among the population in favour of policies of extreme aggression abroad and divisiveness and cruelty at home. Think about that. Wait; don't hit "reply" just yet, with some e-z-bake slam on Canada. You know, like most Canadians, I have mostly respect and admiration for this country, especially the aspects of it that I think reflect some of the better parts of the human spirit. But as a person of conscience, and one who has a finite time to spend on earth, I just cannot stay here and pay taxes towards the evils being done in my name. So I have to face the prospect of leaving my job, my home, and my friends. This might strike some here as rich comedic material, but let me assure you that it is not. It's very sad for me to think that I can't stay here any longer. I worry for what the USA is becoming. Obviously, YMMV. But you don't have to gloat or act like an ass about it, right? Or do you?? Maybe you do. Hey, maybe someone out there can answer a question that's been on my mind for some time: when you treat people with contempt, does it really make you feel better about yourself? I mean, I should be asking the experts, right? So?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 12:44:16 PM EST
    Steve A.... Dude, I never said they didn't exist... however, Canada has deen free from worring about it's security for some time now. Your borders are secure do to the presence of the US military. For example.... An attack on Canada by any country would be considered an attack on the US by the US Government... HOWEVER... I'm pretty confident the reverse is NOT true! In fact, most Canadiens see the US as an imposing big brother that meddles into their business, and indeed resent the US very much.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 12:47:29 PM EST
    Concept A.... there seems to be a mass movement among the population in favour of policies of extreme aggression abroad and divisiveness and cruelty at home. Can you elaborate on these? As stated in my post above, we are on our own when we are attacked as we were on 9/11. If you see this as a policy of 'extreme aggression' well, i'm sorry, but it's up to us to defend ourselves as we saw just how many 'friends' we really have.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 12:55:02 PM EST
    As the outpouring of support immediately following 9/11 and the support for GWI showed we have plenty of friends who when treated fairly and asked to help with a worthwhile task will support us. But when you treat them like crap, try to bully them and then lie to them, you are not going to have many friends. Bush and the neocrazies don't think they need friends so everyother country is to either be used or denigrated. Why would you expect most of our allies to support us in an attack on Iraq without real proof of its involvement with 9/11 or evidence of WMD's

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 12:57:32 PM EST
    "and furthermore that there seems to be a mass movement among the population in favour of policies of extreme aggression abroad and divisiveness and cruelty at home." It's hard to be sypathetic when I don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're moving back to Canada because we invaded Iraq? You're moving back to Canada because now its easier to wiretap a mosque? I don't get your point, and you sound like an ungrateful reactionary who should move back to Canada. I wonder, after 10 years here, however, if you would really be able to live happily in Canada again.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    B.B., First off, I am an American and intend to stay here, come hell or high water. Second, Sorry for mis-reading your post, but if they don't need to field an army, why do they. Can you provide a link that supports how we here in the US pay to defend Canada? Also I see you brought up 9//11. If I recall, most of the world was behind us after 9/11 and when we went into Afgansitan. It was when we went into Iraq that things went south.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#28)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    There is a market of political ideology. You could stay in a country and try and change it against the gathered inertia opposed to your politics, or you could move to one suited to your liberal sensibilities. Vote with your feet; could I suggest the socialist paradise of Cuba?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:19:57 PM EST
    there seems to be a mass movement among the population in favour of policies of extreme aggression abroad and divisiveness and cruelty at home. The war on Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, as all reasonable people now know or have known all along. Thousands of innocent Iraqis are dead, and now Iran is under the gun for similar treatment. This illegal and immoral military action has significant support among the US population, although it is widely recognized as illegal throughout the international community. On the domestic front, the current administration is inventing excuses to do away with Social Security, and there is reason to think that other New Deal-era programs are next. Spending on warfare will increase, while spending on social programs will be cut back, in the interests of national security. I know that there are many Americans for whom this all makes good sense; it does not make sense for me. A state of permanent warfare abroad and a cowed population at home is all that you could ever ask for, if you wished to stage a raid on the treasury. There are disagreements in good faith between people on the left and the right: I happen to believe that governments do best by their citizens to the extent that they try to address the problems that cause suffering: lack of education, poverty, poor health, etc. I understand that the political centre of gravity in the USA has always been skewed more towards the viewpoint that "that government governs best which governs least", that the role of the good government is to protect freedoms and otherwise let people take care of themselves to a greater extent than is the case in many other developed countries. But IMO what is happening under the Bush administration is a giant smash-and-grab scam being perpetrated to enrich the very wealthy and powerful and subjugate the downtrodden. It's breathtaking and terribly sad to watch, since I don't see how American citizens are receiving either good social programs or smaller government at the end of the day; the net result is decreased social spending and a bloated and ever more intrusive bureaucracy. If you believe that your government is acting in your best interests throughout all of this, then you're lucky. I wonder, though, what happened to the tradition of skepticism towards power and authority that characterizes the best American political thinking of the past. Its disappearance is a tragedy. The core symptom of The American Sickness is the invasion of Iraq, and the ever-dwindling series of rationalizations-after-the-fact used to sell it to the domestic population.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:25:05 PM EST
    pigwiggle: There is a market of political ideology. You could stay in a country and try and change it against the gathered inertia opposed to your politics, or you could move to one suited to your liberal sensibilities. Vote with your feet; could I suggest the socialist paradise of Cuba? Sadly, there is no even remotely "free market of political ideology". If there were, this northward-flowing trickle would become a flood. Cuba: nuh uh. Too hot. Hey, how come no one ever jeers at the Puritans and millions of others who fled oppression to come to the USA? I bet the bastards they were fleeing had lots of hours of hilarity at their expense, though.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:25:39 PM EST
    ConceptAlbum, dislike contempt do you? "Contempt is all you folks can express?...Hey, maybe someone out there can answer a question that's been on my mind for some time: when you treat people with contempt, does it really make you feel better about yourself? I mean, I should be asking the experts, right? So?" Posted by: ConceptAlbum on February 8, 2005 01:27 PM "George W. Bush is America's suicide note." Posted by: ConceptAlbum on February 8, 2005 12:03 PM "Syphilis of the soul." Posted by: ConceptAlbum on February 8, 2005 12:29 PM "The American Sickness" Posted by ConceptAlbum at February 8, 2005 02:19 PM

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:32:15 PM EST
    soccerdad.... Why would you expect most of our allies to support us ... Because they are our allies!!!! The word speaks for itself. You're either my friend or your not! Do you pick & choose your friends based on their day to day decisions? Gee Soccerdad, ... you were my friend yesterday because you did this...but you are not today becuase you did that? in an attack on Iraq without real proof of its involvement with 9/11 or evidence of WMD's Dude...I'm not sure how many times in the few months I've been haging out here you have been told this...but I'll try one more time... IRAQ HAD WMD's FOR YEARS...EVERYBODY KNEW IT....(Including John Kerry & most of Congress) HE USED THEM ON HIS OWN PEOPLE. (remember?) SEVERAL RESPECTED INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES ALSO CONFIRMED THIS! OK...got it now? As far as direct involvement with 9/11...it doesn't matter. As has been said by many people (including me) if you aid, harbor, reward, train terrorists ...etc...etc... you are guilty of 9/11.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:36:54 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one: it's a fair cop. Although I plead mitigating circumstances, in so far as I'm not directing these bitterness blasts against any one person here. "The American Sickness": you're grasping at straws a bit there, no?? That's just colourful language. Heck. And you omitted this one: "I suppose that the crybabies and professional victims on the right wing pretend that this is how they felt during the Clinton interregnum, but that's just the usual ginned-up moral equivalency those folks traffic in." That's pretty contemptuous. And contemptible. You must admit, though, that my spelling and punctuation are close to impeccable. OTOH, I have a zit on the bridge of my nose that threatens to undermine all of the points I'm trying to make.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:47:27 PM EST
    since I don't see how American citizens are receiving either good social programs or smaller government at the end of the day
    Well said sir.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:50:16 PM EST
    b.b.: As far as direct involvement with 9/11...it doesn't matter. As has been said by many people (including me) if you aid, harbor, reward, train terrorists ...etc...etc... you are guilty of 9/11. Would you be able to say that to the family of a dead Iraqi non-combatant? That would take some real courage and moral strength, I think. Perhaps you're that courageous and strong, though, b.b. If so, my hat is off to you; you're a better man or woman than I am.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:51:18 PM EST
    If you really hate our foreign policy so much, then leave. I, for one, think the dangers to the US in leaving Iran develop nuclear weapons far outweigh the instability that would come from a military action against them. Similarly, when all the intelligence agencies in every country says a man who hates the US more than any other is devlopping wmd's, I don't think it's so so extreme to take action against that indvidual. These are debatable points, but they certainly don't require "leaving the country" if your posision doesn't win out. To each their own I guess, go back to Canada if you're so appalled. I'd say it's a little silly, especially since you otherwise seemed to have embraced the US and are doing well.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:51:34 PM EST
    Concept A... The war on Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, That is debatable... it is widely recognized as illegal throughout the international community So was the 'oil for food' program. Do you agree that part of the problem here was the UN's failure to hold Saddam to the sanctions it imposed? Most Americans (i Think) see this as a fairly simple thing. That is...our number one priority now is to protect the US (& it's people) from terrorists that want to see us dead! Yes, we can go on & on about the reasons for this, but that is all moot at this point. All these other issues you cited are irrelevent if this country allows any more 9/11 type attacks. It's all a matter of priorities... Many on the left go so far as to say we either deserved it, or it was a one time thing to make a point, or it was all trumped up so GW can take over the world..etc..etc. Most of us see it for what it really is and are not willing to take that risk.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:57:47 PM EST
    Steve A.... but if they don't need to field an army, why do they.... Why do most countries... to protect themselves. However, the Canadian Government has virtually no air defenses and certainly no nuclear capabilities. No, ... if canada were ever attacked, we (the good ol US of A) would defend her. Can you provide a link that supports how we here in the US pay to defend Canada? We pay by virtue of our armed forces. ..our nuclear deterent, our Coast Guard.... our air superiority... etc..etc. This is not new ..or should it be news to any US or Canadian citizen.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:06:23 PM EST
    Cocept A.... Would you be able to say that to the family of a dead Iraqi non-combatant? Sure! A vast majority of Iraqis will tell you they are much better off now than under Saddam...hell I think the election results bare that out. BTW.... many of these people didn't need to die. All they had to do was cooperate with coalition forces. If my next door neighbor was hiding insurgents, and a bomb takes them out along with my family...shame on me.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:09:02 PM EST
    These are debatable points, but they certainly don't require "leaving the country" if your posision doesn't win out. It's not like I'm taking my bat and ball home cos the other kids won't play by my rules. I strenuously object to the direction in which the current administration is moving this country. If I were an American, I would stay and fight for my country, believe me. As it is, though, I have others to think about, and quite frankly I find it galling to pay taxes to subsidize a military action which is illegal and immoral and has caused a huge number of innocent people to die needlessly. So I will leave. But if you think that I'm leaving full of smugness and contempt for America and Americans, you couldn't be more wrong. It feels like heartbreak; and the people in the NYT story linked to from the original post are no doubt feeling a lot of sadness and confusion about what has happened to their country. It's the easiest thing in the world to put a spearation between yourself and other people, and to sneer at them and call them "traitors" and whatever else; but no one leaves their country of birth lightly when that country has the potential for greatness that the USA has. It's the waste of potential, and its sublimation into little more than war-mongering and kicking the downtrodden, that is hard to watch.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:11:28 PM EST
    "It's the waste of potential, and its sublimation into little more than war-mongering and kicking the downtrodden, that is hard to watch." Well, obviously I disagree with you on these points, but I appreciate your covictions. Good luck to you...

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:19:57 PM EST
    If my next door neighbor was hiding insurgents, and a bomb takes them out along with my family...shame on me. I think you forgot to say "... and if I know that my next door neighbor was hiding insurgents...". Without that, this is one of the most terrible and inhuman statements I've read in days. With it, it's merely ghoulish. Only a culture drunk on the belief that it can't happen here could produce people capable of saying such things. It's enough to make the angels weep to hear how lightly we speak of others' deaths.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:26:41 PM EST
    Dagma: Lose your job, American wife find a better looking man, kids starting to get hooked on ecstacy, or do you just miss your mom? Kept my job; got a Canadian bf; no kids; my mom died just over a year ago. Keep guessing!!

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#45)
    by ras on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:35:58 PM EST
    A Canadian Opinion? If you wanna come up here, head East, kiddos. Western Canada is cowboy country. Here in BC, the conservative (small-c) party that runs the joint is named the Liberal Party, but they're basically middle-of-the-roaders. Our armed forces are not much these days; under Trudeau, the feds realized they didn't need an army cux the US would do the job for us, so they've been cutting back to pay for pork ever since. Where we do buy equipment, it's often used, such as the recent whatchamacallit sub that broke, or our Sea King helicopters (which get their name, I suppose, from their habitat, since they crash so often). If the people thinking of emigrating are like the Lefties on the group, they're gonna have to head to Quebec; even Ontario talks a more liberal line than they play. And the Maritimers'd just laff at them as soon as they put on the Chomksy pretense; they're pretty blunt and down to earth out there. Yup, if it's TL-style politics you want, it's pretty much Quebec or nothing. The street-level commentary elsewhere is nowhere near as anti-US as you've been led to believe. Parlez-vous?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:42:24 PM EST
    ConceptAlbum are gay? Is that what this is? You want to go to Canada for more gay rights? If so, why didn't you say so?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:50:54 PM EST
    Concept A..... Without that, this is one of the most terrible and inhuman statements I've read in days. With it, it's merely ghoulish Sorry ...but I tell it like it is. I have some second hand knowledge of this type of thing. Many of these people were told to leave the area and refused. They stayed at their own peril. And sorry, but if insurgents are operating out of the house next store. (less than 1o feet away) you'd know it. And, if you don't get away or refuse to tell the authorities...I'll say it again (for your enjoyment) ...shame on you!

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:51:36 PM EST
    MB: ConceptAlbum are gay? Is that what this is? You want to go to Canada for more gay rights? If so, why didn't you say so? MB are horsie? Want more scrummy hay and nice warm stall? If so, why didn't you say so?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:54:41 PM EST
    B.B.: I have some second hand knowledge of this type of thing. Oh, sorry. I thought you were just making stuff up to assuage your conscience. Carry on.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:59:50 PM EST
    I think if you're moving back to Canada, the fact that you're gay might have something to do with it (and maybe a little less about America's oppressive foreign policy, etc.) don't you?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:59:53 PM EST
    Well, I always read this sort of thing with my Bradour at hand, toque on my head, and my rubbers on. My wife is Canadian, you see, so I can't say bad stuff about Canada. I might note that not one of her relatives and many friends that have moved to the US have ever discussed going "home" in front of me in over 15 years. FWIW. -C

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#52)
    by ras on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:09:33 PM EST
    Actually, I should clarify - it's pretty much Quebec in certain neighborhoods, basically outside of the "Liberal" (capital-l, this time) corridor, plus certain city neighborhoods in Q.City & Montreal. Oh, yeah, read our constituion first, too. You'll love the opening line:
    Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
    The "notwithstanding" clause is worth a gander, too. And if we ever hold another hockey game (sigh), here's what we'll sing: "Oh Canada, Our home & native land" True Patriot Love, In all Thy Son's Command" (patriotism and Christianity, all in the first two lines of our anthem). BTW, if you're worried about Bush's handling of civil rights when faced with terrorists, you might wanna first compare it to the Canadian approach. Bonus question: how would you react if Bush suspended all civil liberties throughout the US in response to a single death, not yet confirmed at the time? You have a lot to learn about Canada, you know. Sure we live in igloos and say "eh?" and drink only one brand of beer, but there's so much more to us besides that....

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#53)
    by ras on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:11:47 PM EST
    p.s. I'm w-a-y over my dissenting-opinion quota today, so I'll stop here. Most of it was in response to direct q's, but even so.... Anyway, if you have a followup or a q, leave it at my site where I'll see it, or email it direct. Thx.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:20:32 PM EST
    MB: I think if you're moving back to Canada, the fact that you're gay might have something to do with it (and maybe a little less about America's oppressive foreign policy, etc.) don't you? What if I were gay? Would that make it easier to stop thinking about the real issues here? If so, and you want to stop thinking, then I'm gay. OK? What if I weren't gay? Do we move on to some new gambit designed to prevent this conversation from degenerating into an open and honest exchange of ideas between humans? It takes a certain, um, moxie, to play this sort of tele-psychiatry game, whereby you, who know next to nothing about me, can let me in on the secrets of my mental life, my beliefs, desires, and motivations. Don't you feel a bit weird doing that? I sure wouldn't try it going the other way. Of course, the possibility exists that you're some kind of crazy genius, capable of knowing more about me than I do myself. But I doubt that. Anyway, let's have some better proof. What if my motivation for moving back to Canada did have more to do with being gay than with the foreign policy of the USA. Can you checkmate me in some fixed number of moves? Should I go there?? What if it's a trap?? Oh, MB, sometimes I feel so lost and alone, and I never knew I had such friends until I met you. Let us be lovers, we'll marry our fortunes together. I've got some real estate here in my bag. And what about the oppressive domestic policy? Have we decided to let that slide?? Too many balls in the air at one time, huh? Maybe some fag-baiting will calm everyone's nerves, and then we can get on with things. Important things.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:26:59 PM EST
    "Kept my job; got a Canadian bf; no kids; my mom died just over a year ago." Why do I think you're gay? You say: "got a Canadian bf". You're not a chick, so I think you're gay. And I think you're whole diatribe is now primarily about gay rights. Yeah, makes sense, go to Canada and get married. Why not? But don't give us all this song and dance about oppressive this and that....

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:36:37 PM EST
    Anonymous: You're not a chick, so I think you're gay... Oh my lord. "Christ, I had to swerve pretty damn hard and fast when I saw that novel thought coming at me out of the fog. Yes, folks, I was the unknown hero of blogtopia that day." Thank you, whoever you are. It's not about bad government; it's about greedy fags. Phew. For a moment I almost had to think about something. It made my head and face feel all funny and hot and weird and stuff. Maybe I should go see the school nurse. I could maybe get out of gym and hang out in the arcade with my stupid racist friends. GOOD TIMES!!

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:42:10 PM EST
    The numbers in the IHT article are miniscule, 18,000 inquiries, although to read the piece one would think that US citizens are lining up at customs with all their worldly belongings as we speak. Trust me, their not. If Canadians want to go home after feeding at the US trough for a few years that is great, I have no problem with mercenaries. Go home and say hi to mum and dad. I travel often to Canada; Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes and find that most of their negative opinions of the US comes from repeated exposure to the CBC. Mostly they don't even think about the US except our entertainment industry and our consumption of Canadian extractable goods which means Canadian jobs. The Bush soft wood tariffs that were imposed (which I disagree with) against Canadian producers seems to be a big point of contention. Most are fair minded and like us Yanks just fine as we here just south of the border feel the same. As far as Americans going to Canada, please know that most of my associates there really don't like to talk politics so don't be boorish about it. Canada's standing forces? Somewhere in the 50,000 range and equipment that is threadbare to say the least. They would be hard pressed to actually defend their country and there is no forseeable increase in military spending because of social spending obligations. I don't like the Canada bashing that does show up on the Right but the idea that US Leftists are so wimpy that they would leave the country instead of standing and fighting for their beliefs is pitiful. Maybe even Darwinian. One other thing to the leaving Leftists; Bye, Bye. See ya later.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 04:05:33 PM EST
    jimcee: I travel often to Canada; Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes and find that most of their negative opinions of the US comes from repeated exposure to the CBC. God forbid that Americans' support for war comes from repeated exposure to CNN, Fox, etc. Perhaps Americans are not so easily manipulated by the modern media apparatus. jimcee, I'm sure you mean well, and you sound more reasonable than others I could name here and others who have no name here. But this kind of sociological observation isn't working for me. It's worth considering the possibility that Canadians' feelings about the US are actually the end result of some historical awareness and thought. It's just so reductive to pin everything on the CBC, isn't it? It hides an unspoken assumption that Canadians would be just like "us" if not for their constant exposure to anti-US propaganda. Don't forget too: correlation isn't causation. It's possible that the same factors that motivate Canadians to have negative feelings about the US are the same factors that influence the CBC coverage, right? Since the people that produce CBC programming are Canadian.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 04:08:38 PM EST
    In your dreams, Jimcee. It's all talk. What was the hit song in Canada when "Wake Up Little Susie" was the hit in America? Who knows, but six months later it was "Wake Up Little Susie".

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#61)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 06:11:59 PM EST
    YES IT IS! YES IT IS! IT'S TERRIFIC! IT'S WONDERFUL! IT'S DELIGHTFUL! GO! GO!

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:19:10 PM EST
    Americans who want to escape from the USA until 2008, are welcome in old Europe, as well as some "coalition countries" (England, Italy) where 80% of people can't stand Bush anymore.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:22:50 PM EST
    IRAQ HAD WMD's FOR YEARS...EVERYBODY KNEW IT....(Including John Kerry & most of Congress) HE USED THEM ON HIS OWN PEOPLE. (remember?) SEVERAL RESPECTED INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES ALSO CONFIRMED THIS! OK...got it now? Except for the ones the idiot son of George Bush finally acknowledged Saddam didn't have. Canada is only one of many destinations in the world that would make a good residence. As Americans, we can generally sell our skills for more than we can make in the United States. Our taxes are among the highest in the world unless you're wealthy. You can maintain citizenship, pay no taxes, and invest through offshore accounts bypassing taxes once again. The rich set up the rules, and we too can play by them. You are welcome to visit, ConceptAlbum. Amercia was once filled with hopes and aspriations. Now Fascism is knocking at it's door, bearing a cross wrapped in a flag dripping the blood of the 35 million killed in the last 50 years, and it's being welcomed by many of those who post here.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:41:44 PM EST
    Klaatu. If you're already there, stay. If not, go.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Al on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:52:16 PM EST
    jimcee: I travel often to Canada; Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes and find that most of their negative opinions of the US comes from repeated exposure to the CBC. I think most Canadians have no problem with Americans, quite the contrary. But most of us do think your government sucks. And since the CBC is not censored, a lot of the ugliness is bound to show up there. Of course, Bush fans would rather shoot the messenger than face the unpleasant reality that their country is currently ruled by morons and thugs.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 03:11:28 AM EST
    As far as direct involvement with 9/11...it doesn't matter. As has been said by many people (including me) if you aid, harbor, reward, train terrorists ...etc...etc... you are guilty of 9/11.
    B.B. - Fantastic - go deal with all those Irish-Americans funding the IRA for me, willya?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#68)
    by jerry on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 06:55:53 AM EST
    Am I the only one who thinks Poker Player is full of crap? If moving out of this country is what it takes to shake the very foundation of common sense amoungst our leaders than so be it. I'm sure the feeling of helplessness is felt by many Americans as they watch this little weasel in the White House run roughshod over the country. If there is no way to stop him then maybe an exit of the middle class tax payers will bring him to a reality check, after all they are the main source of dollars for Bush to throw around to his rich buddies.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:26:16 AM EST
    Canada's standing forces? Somewhere in the 50,000 range and equipment that is threadbare to say the least. They would be hard pressed to actually defend their country and there is no forseeable increase in military spending because of social spending obligations.
    Gotta chime in here. Who would Canada have to defend their country against? The Huns? Canada has a sensible foreign policy of live and let live. Hence, no one would want to attack them. Canada is smart, they realize they have two large oceans that protect them. They aren't planning any invasions or occupations I know of. Their gov't,unlike ours, doesn't spread fear as a way to justify obscene military spending. They feel, I suppose, there are better things to spend money on than bombs. I agree.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:02:15 AM EST
    Matt W... B.B. - Fantastic - go deal with all those Irish-Americans funding the IRA for me, willya? Nope, they are an "English" problem. You people in England need to deal with that. If they ever attack the US, then they will become our problem. It's real easy...understand now?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:07:32 AM EST
    Klaatu Nice name...good band... Except for the ones the idiot son of George Bush finally acknowledged Saddam didn't have. Just because we didn't find them, it doesn't mean he didn't have them. We gave him way too much time to stash them. bearing a cross wrapped in a flag dripping the blood of the 35 million killed in the last 50 years, and it's being welcomed by many of those who post here. 35 Million huh.... And all those were killed by the nasty U.S. for no reason huh? We just killed them becasue we are a bad evil country...right?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:11:02 AM EST
    Al.... But most of us do think your government sucks. Humm...all my Canadian friends say that their Government sucks.... their country is currently ruled by morons and thugs. Hum...yep, that's exactly what my canuck friends say.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:13:47 AM EST
    Matt W. Basically, the point was to BB, who seems to think all terrorists are the same, and can all be dealt with the same way. Did I say that? That's funny, I don't remember saying that? However I will go on the record now & say that all M.E. terrorists are the same & should be delt with the same way.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:11:34 AM EST
    Just because we didn't find them, it doesn't mean he didn't have them. We gave him way too much time to stash them. What part of the administration saying they were gone over a decade ago was incomprehensible to you? 35 Million huh.... And all those were killed by the nasty U.S. for no reason huh? We just killed them becasue we are a bad evil country...right? What part of foreign policy are you having difficulty with? Klaatu barada nikto. Klaatu. If you're already there, stay. If not, go. Blindly following a bad leader is not patriotism. When your actions are held up to you, as they have been to other fascists in the past, you will realize the wrongs you committed and the evil you supported.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 12:16:08 PM EST
    Klaatu... What part of the administration saying they were gone over a decade ago was incomprehensible to you? I never heard the administration say that. What part of foreign policy are you having difficulty with? All of it apparently. You never answered my question. Show me where we killed 35 million innocent people! Blindly following a bad leader is not patriotism. Neither is blindly blaming him for eveything!

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 01:20:09 PM EST
    deleted for profanity, commenter will be banned if does it again.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:13:44 PM EST
    Fair enough BB, we'll just calmly allowe people based here to kill your citizens. No problem. After all, what are friends for?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:29:14 PM EST
    Matt we'll just calmly allowe people based here to kill your citizens. You are already doing that...wasn't the 'shoe bomber' from England?

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:17:12 PM EST
    Jerry - Be of good cheer. Bush has only three years, three hundred and forty five days left. BTW - When you lose elections or wars, there are consquences. They may not have taught you that in school, but is a fact. Matt W - I give you a reasoned response, and you start talking about insults. I tell you I am hurt to the core.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 06:16:02 PM EST
    Is Canada the answer? That would depend on what the question is.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:35:35 PM EST
    Justpaul, I believe the question is: where do they have 2 seasons, winter and July? "Klaatu" was the word that stopped a robot from attacking in a 1960s sci-fi movie. Apparently it doesn't work on this joker.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#82)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:57:03 PM EST
    Klaatu. You got me. Kristallnacht in our town was last week. It was more fun than The Lottery. As somebody said, the dark night of fascism is always descending on America. Unfortunately--for Europe--it only seems to hit the ground in Europe. Looks, at least in Holland, and possibly--given the new don't-offend-Muslims-in-speech law in Britain--that we're going to see either an Islamic fascism, or an anti-Islamic fascism. One analyst said that, since European armies have shrunk beyond any possible capability of anything unless supported by the Brits or US, the states will not be able to take care of things. It will be Bosnia or Kossovo writ large.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:09:10 AM EST
    PPJ:- At least I didn't respond with 'Tell me, do you still beat your wife?'. I believe that's your particular favourite. BB:- The shoe bomber was an isolated nutcase. I'm glad you think the IRA are compaarable.

    Re: Is Canada the Answer? (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:08:15 AM EST
    A lot of this is based on what amounts to an assumption on the part of Americans that Canucks would want an influx of 'liberal' Americans. Has anyone here seen any polls on this?

    Is Canada the Answer? | 81 comments (81 topical)