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Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients

By Jeralyn, Section Judiciary
Posted on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 11:18:24 PM EST
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The Attorney General of Kansas is demanding files of late-term abortion patients in anticipation of criminal prosecutions.

Attorney General Phill Kline, a Republican who has made fighting abortion a staple of his two years in the post, is demanding the complete medical files of scores of women and girls who had late-term abortions, saying on Thursday that he needs the information to prosecute criminal cases.

He says his targets are abortion doctors and health professionals:

"There are two things that child predators want, access to children and secrecy. As attorney general, I'm bound and determined not to give them either."

Advocates on both sides of the abortion issue said the broad investigation, backed by a judge's subpoena, is the first of its kind in pursuit of criminal charges, although the federal Justice Department has unsuccessfully sought similar records in its defense of a ban on a procedure sometimes used to end pregnancies after the first trimester that doctors call intact dilation and extraction and that critics call partial-birth abortion.

Ultimately, the courts will determine if he gets them. This is a compelling reason to maintain the right to filibuster judicial nominees. And to block the confirmation of Bush nominees whom we know are chomping at the bit to outlaw abortion.

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    • Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients | 28 comments (28 topical)
    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 11:28:19 PM EST
    What's ironic about his advocacy of openness is that he's being sued for breaking the Open Meetings Act. He met secretly with the state Board of Ed to encourage them to put warning labels on biology texts. Thoughts from Kansas is tracking him.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#2)
    by demohypocrates on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 12:00:03 AM EST
    FWIW, I am a conservative Catholic against the death penalty, but I cant garner the emotion to wage a defense in support of a convicted killer. By the same token, I dont have the wherewithall to support a prosecution of women who have aborted too late in their pregnancy. I see grey people. Dont know what to do...

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#3)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 04:41:55 AM EST
    Demo, I think you missed the point. Since you claim to be a conservative, I'll presume you just missed it instead of deliberately misrepresenting it. The AG is looking for the guys who raped these underage girls. You have a problem with that?

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#4)
    by rob on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 04:50:29 AM EST
    Richard, Thats not actually how I read it but with that knowledge the post makes a lot more sense. To the casual eye when its read one sentance ends "...he needs the information to prosecute criminal cases." And the next starts; "He says his targets are abortion doctors and health professionals." I think it was bady edited together hence the confusion. (Finally! Those three years in university didn't go to waste!) Rob

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#5)
    by DonS on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 05:02:42 AM EST
    "We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto" Unfortunately we are, and it looks and awful lot like Nazi Germany.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 06:01:42 AM EST
    Are they implying abortion docs are predators? I've never been to Kansas, do they have abortion docs lurking in alleyways there whispering "C'mere little girl, want an abortion?". I don't get it.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 07:40:58 AM EST
    The way it is written in unclear, but likely both potential groups are targets. Kdog, hopefully you simply misunderstand the point. It's not that the clinics are pedophiles, they simply enable the pedophiles. They are supposed to report every underage (under the age of consent to have sex) abortion to the authorities in order for the authorities to determine if statuatory rape took place, or if an affermative defense exists. For example in Texas the age of consent is 17, but it's an affermative defense if the partners are within 3 years of each other. The clinics are supposed to report all abortions of fillies who are 16 and under because of the possibility of statuatory rape. If you're looking for a hidden motive, the fact that the AG is seeking late term info is to try to spark a battle over state's interest in protecting a viable unborn baby. There may be some laws that are violated in that sence, but more likely he's gathering data to arm the legislature with to show that clinics aren't following current SCOTUS rulings saying the state has an interest in protecting viable babies, and trying to find a way to fashion a law that will further restirct late term abortions in line with current SCOTUS decisions, and perhaps lay the groundwork to show SCOTUS that the clinics aren't following their rulings and therefore the state needs to be given more latitude to protect her own.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 07:45:17 AM EST
    Since Phil Kline he was elected, he has been hellbent on harassing doctors who perform abortions under the guise of uncovering sex abuse.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 07:52:14 AM EST
    Demo, I think you missed the point. Since you claim to be a conservative, I'll presume you just missed it instead of deliberately misrepresenting it. The AG is looking for the guys who raped these underage girls. You have a problem with that? Right, that's why he's ordering the histories of women who are past the age of consent, and wants to know everything else they've done. Would you like to buy a bridge? No, of course not--even you couldn't be dumb enough to believe this is about statutory rape. It's that knee-jerk defense of 'wingers by other 'wingers, isn't it? A Republican prosecutor taped Clinton's grand jury appearance by lying that it was for a sick juror; next thing, it's being aired on broadcast television. If Kline gets his way, something similar will happen to these women.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 08:13:31 AM EST
    It's not that the clinics are pedophiles, they simply enable the pedophiles.
    I don't know Tex, enabling seems like a stretch to me. And what about doctor/patient priveledge issues? How far will the state go in their zealotry? You can't blame the doctor if the victim doesn't want to report a crime. The whole thing stinks to me. IMHO, even 16 yr. olds should have a right to privacy, though I know the law feels otherwise.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#11)
    by nolo on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 09:42:32 AM EST
    The notion that this is about tracking down pedophiles seems mighty dubious to me. For one, the subpoena doesn't seem to be limited to files involving underage patients. For another, I see no indication in the NYT article that the providers are shirking their responsibilities under already-existing Kansas laws that require health care providers to report incidents of child abuse.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 09:57:11 AM EST
    There are two things that child predators want, access to children and secrecy. As attorney general, I'm bound and determined not to give them either
    This doesn't even make sense. If a pregnant "child" shows up at an abortion clinic, the father, of the baby, by definition a rapist, has clearly had "access". And how do you broach the "secrecy" of the father - by confiscating the medical records of the victim? By interrogating her trying to get information she may be terrified to reveal. Pregnancy at this age, whether the result of rape, coersion, or supposed consent on the girls part is an unimaginably devastating experience. I would certainly advocate for mandated pre-procedural counseling for anyone under 18 wishing to terminate a pregnancy, with the Dr.'s obligation to report child abuse (they have this in my state) intact. Also, has AG Kline thought about what the fate of these girls would be if their abusers knew they would be arrested if the girls went to an abortion clinic? God help us and them.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#13)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 09:58:45 AM EST
    “The AG is looking for the guys who raped these underage girls.” Medical records are collected with a certain assurance of privacy. It seems that these minors are being compelled to testify.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 10:21:45 AM EST
    It alsmost sounds like the AG is accusing rape victims of hiding the identities of the perpetrators. We can assume this does not happen. Therefore the actions of the AG are not necessary.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 10:30:52 AM EST
    Hmmm. Is he also seeking the medical records of minors who give birth? Who put children up for adoption? I don't think so.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 10:37:27 AM EST
    If he's only trying to find rapists, why isn't he trying to subpoena the records of underage girls who GAVE BIRTH?? Underage is underage, no? Why is he only concerned a crime may have been committed in abortion cases?

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 10:52:41 AM EST
    Good points all. We can sense the truth, this is all about denying a womans right to choose, no matter how much spinning the zealots do.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 11:00:16 AM EST
    From the linked article: State health records show that 78 Kansans younger than 15 received abortions in 2003 Why does he need this information? Doesn't he already have it? satchel also makes a very good point - if this AG is truly interested in punishing those who have sex under the age of consent, he should be talking to anyone who had a child when they were 17 years and eight months (or less) old. They should also be talking to any male under the age of 16 who claims to have had sex. I am unclear about someone who is not a native of Kansas, under their age of consent, but legally allowed to have sex where they live. Do they automatically become victims once they step onto Kansas soil?

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 11:07:21 AM EST
    Oops,... my bad. Nemo made the comment about the Kansas AG not being concerned about minors who brought their pregnancies to term. satchel makes a good point, too, but not the one I wanted to emphasize. Also: Posted by: pigwiggle on February 25, 2005 10:58 AM “The AG is looking for the guys who raped these underage girls.” Medical records are collected with a certain assurance of privacy. It seems that these minors are being compelled to testify. I have to ask if you are aware of some of the provisions of the Patriot Act. There are no assurances of privacy from government scrutiny in medical records or for that matter practically any data that exists about you. Plus, you don't have to be notified that they have accessed it, and in many cases those who provided the data are forbidden from notifying anyone that they provided it.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 12:33:03 PM EST
    Aren't there some sort of laws that speak to fishing expeditions, you know, evidence in search ofa crime? Some old document maybe?

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#21)
    by Eileen on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 02:09:12 PM EST
    We are not only in Kansas Toto - we are also in the land of 'NYT make believe' where time has no meaning. If we are to believe the headline on that news report then 22 weeks is the same as 26.6 weeks and later. The third trimester - or late term - begins at 26.6 weeks so the fact that Kansas has produced a legal fiction that describes post 22 week abortions as "late term" does not give license to the NYT to print the term without proper notification of the fact that in this instance is a peculiar Kansas legal fiction. There is - in fact - no US record of an abortion performed in the actual late term in the past 10 years that was not performed for reasons of fetal anomaly or because the pregnancy endangered the life of the woman or child and that was not prosecuted. Those prosecuted amounted to less than 5 in number and none of those illegal abortions under Roe were performed in Kansas. Despite the pious platitudes of the Kansas AG it is obvious that this petty tyrant is engaged in another attempt to close the clinic in Wichita where the skill of the physician has given solace to women from all parts of the US and many other countries who seek to terminate a pregnancy that has gone horribly wrong for them. However Kline has chosen not only to intimidate the physician in this case but also to drag the unfortunate patients into the spotlight by an egregious violation of their right to privacy - particularly where their medical records are concerned.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#22)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 02:43:05 PM EST
    Seems on par for a state that inflicted Fred Phelps on the rest of us, not to mention the whole "6000 year old Earth" crowd that wants control of their school science cirriculum. My neighbors over there can always be relied upon for a laugh. I'm not laughing about this fishing expedition of Kline's, though.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 03:45:49 PM EST
    There is an expectation of privacy. Independently of that, there are laws requiring medical professionals, teachers, and others to report suspected abuse or molestation, under penalty of being prosecuted themselves. Some pro-choicers have called abortion clinics and pretended to be kids pregnant by adult men and been told that the guy's name would not be released. If true, the clinics are breaking the law. I don't know how the potential conflict between privacy and the professionals' requirements to report is worked out. But it appears to exist, so the privacy expectation or doctor-patient confidentiality seem not to be absolute. It would be a slam-dunk on the AG if the clinics could show records of informing law enforcement of underage girls coming in pregnant. If they can't do that, then they didn't, and would probably have broken the law. Maybe the clinics should just do that and make an end to this. Why doesn't somebody call them up and suggest it, since they seem not to have thought of it. Now, if they didn't do it, they should have. What then?

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 04:00:13 PM EST
    IMHO Nemo really exposed the hypocrisy. I like Tex's explanation of their MO. More battle lines being drawn.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#25)
    by cp on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 05:20:40 PM EST
    isn't this the same state that brought us prosecution of "the tin drum" for obscenity, 15 or 20 years after it was released? if, as he claims, he is seeking those records merely to prosecute those guilty of stututory rape, then, logically, he should, as well, be seeking records of all providers of birth control to underage girls. this would be for the purpose of interviewing them, to ascertain who their partners are. of course, he's doing no such thing. let's hope that the court sees through the transparent hypocrisy and lies of this man. frankly, being kansas, i'm not holding my breath.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#26)
    by cp on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 05:22:14 PM EST
    sorry, that should have read "staturory" rape.

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#27)
    by cp on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 05:22:58 PM EST
    no, it should have been "statutory"!

    Re: Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients (none / 0) (#28)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 06:46:13 PM EST
    cp. To follow up on those kids getting birth control, you'd have to prove they're having sex, not merely regulating the period, which was the reason I used to hear 'way back. And, no, he's not asking for virginity checks. The best way to be sure somebody's had sex is if they have a baby, or abort one. That's pretty clear, doesn't take a lot of research. I figure the clinics can shut him down by proving they did as they are legally required to do and informed law enforcement. Maybe you have the clinics' phone numbers?

    Kansas Seeks Files on Abortion Patients | 28 comments (28 topical)