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Bush v. Trial Lawyers

by TChris

Federal prosecutors are trial lawyers. Insurance defense lawyers are trial lawyers. The corporations that overwhelm federal courts with commercial litigation are represented by trial lawyers. Even the lawyers who represented Bush in his lawsuit against Gore to decide which Florida ballots would (or would not) be counted are trial lawyers.

With so many trial lawyers helping the interests of the wealthy and powerful, why is it true (as today's New York Times reminds us) that "within conservative circles and inside the White House, the term 'trial lawyer' is an epithet"?

Having protected corporations from the consequences of their fraudulent actions by "reforming" class action lawsuits, the administration now hopes to protect incompetent doctors from the consequences of their malpractice. The administration's relentless drive to insulate businesses and businessmen from responsibility, at the expense of their injured victims, is difficult to reconcile with Republican rhetoric about personal responsibility and state's rights. Are victims of careless doctors responsible for the negligently-inflicted disabilities they may be forced to endure for a lifetime? Shouldn't states make their own decisions whether, and to what extent, to cap the damages that juries award to compensate those victims?

Are trial lawyers the problem? Or are high insurance rates that doctors pay the result of a medical profession that does too little to prevent dangerously incompetent doctors from treating patients? Or the result of price gouging by insurance companies?

Are insurance rates the only problem? Does the Bush administration care a whit about the victims of careless doctors?

"There is a strong consensus among people who have really studied the issue that caps on damages would tend to keep costs down and make liability insurance more affordable for doctors," [Dr. William M. Sage, a physician and a law professor at Columbia University] said. "And there is a universal consensus that caps would do absolutely nothing to reduce medical errors or to compensate injured patients. If anything, caps on damages would make those problems worse."

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    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#2)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 10:48:20 AM EST
    Without appropriate redress for injuries, somebody might decide to cap the professional service-provider perceived as incompetent.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#3)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 10:59:29 AM EST
    During the Denny's discrimination lawsuit some time back, I found I had witnessed discrimination at a Denny's in Flagstaff. It was purely an accident. I had been put into the claimant file and thus got a note from the Special Master. In checking this out, I discovered that, while the social security number was correct, they had my date of birth wrong and I was supposedly three at the time. I had never been in Flagstaff. I got the names of the other witnesses, contacted four of five and found they, 1, had never been told what they'd witnessed, and, 2, never been in Flagstaff, and the whole thing was news to them. I have been notified in two other instances that I merit compensation for an offense I had never noticed, because of my membership in certain classes. Apparently you can be a plaintiff without knowing it and without having been offended, and get money for nothing. That the attorneys in the case get about 70% of it is apparently supposed to be irrelevant. I will say I was surprised to find I can be a witness in a case and give a deposition without knowing it. There's a certain proportion of your brethren who are lower than whale scat.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 11:05:58 AM EST
    r.a., so you have one bad experience. that should certainly demonize the right of ALL individuals and their legal representation from seeking equitable redress for injuries or damages. Come on, bud, you have to come up with numbers that show millions of these suits for bush's lying attack and greed-based push to make ANY sense beyond the bought-and-paid-for politician truth of this bullsh*t. for every shady suit by anyone, corporation or individual, there are more that are legit. of course, when we rag on these suits, we're pointing fingers at others like children and not implicating ourselves in any way. the problem is always everyone else and not us. funny how that is.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#5)
    by nolo on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 11:07:20 AM EST
    Part of me is hesitant to agree with the first comment, but there's a grain of truth to the claim that the epithet "trial lawyer" has something slightly antisemitic about it. Until fairly recently (and by recently I'd say the past 20-30 years) you wouldn't have found any Jews in the big East Coast white-shoe corporate firms. You wouldn't have found many Catholics either, but that's another story. In any case, Jewish lawyers were not invited into the nice cozy world of BigAss corporations and their BigAss Law Firms. So, almost by default, Jewish lawyers ended up being the ones who were there to take cases against the BigAss corporations. Which, of course, was considered unseemly. There's a reason that "aggressive" is an old East Coast code-word for Jewish lawyers and firms made up predominately of Jewish attorneys. Now, I'm not saying that this old crap is a primary (or even secondary, or even tertiary) motivator in the War on Your Right To A Remedy If You Get Screwed By A BigAss Corporation, but there are certainly people out there who are going to hear the phrase "trial lawyer" and get a certain image in their minds.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#6)
    by nolo on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 11:15:29 AM EST
    Yo, Richard -- you have no idea what kind of administrative nightmare a class action can be. Nor do I think you understand how notice works in a class action context. There are all sorts of due process concerns that surround the issue of providing notice to potential class members. Thus, it is in the interest of everyone involved directly in the class action (including the class defendants) to make sure that notice goes out to everyone who could possibly be a class member. Usually there's a secondary winnowing-out level when it comes to potential members actually claiming compensation -- but if the per-capita damages in a class action are minimal (and they usually are), the administrative costs involved in making sure that you're not sending compensation to people who might not actually be entitled to it can outweigh the cost of being a little overinclusive. And as for what lawyers make off of class actions, please be aware, Richard, that no lawyer gets paid on a class action settlement without court approval. Period. It doesn't happen. Period. In any event, I'm at a total loss as to how sending all class actions to federal court is going to make any difference on these inherently practical issues. It's just going to overload the federal courts.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 11:18:47 AM EST
    Too bad the bulk of medical liability insurance premium increase goes toward covering stock market losses post-Bush 2000.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 11:49:28 AM EST
    There are some really good arguments that the tort/lawsuit system ought to be replaced with a no-fault, workers-comp style system. Unfortunately, this doesn't often get dicussed as a policy option because 1) it represents a "big gummint" program like the Repubs don't like; and 2) it threatens to take a lot of money out of the plaintiffs' bar, which the Dems don't like.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#9)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 12:05:09 PM EST
    Hey, Nolo. You didn't make very many good points except that administering a class action suit where the overwhelming majority of the plaintiffs had no idea they were plaintiffs is messy. You also failed to address the issue of how WITNESSES don't know they're witnesses, either. When I asked if there was a protocol for interviewing three-year-olds (the attorneys didn't think anybody would care that they brought a three-year-old's deposition), the folks told me..... Huh. How about that. No interest in the subject. The fact is, most of this was a con job. If I could find somebody to sue for filing a deposition under my name, I'd do it. And I'd sue the judge for being such an idiot as to admit a deposition from a three-year-old. Since I can't do either, I'll just take sides against such morons. If honest tort lawyers (by statistical probability there must be one or two) are hurt, then that's what you get for not policing the crooks among you. Called colleteral damage. If the only three experiences I've had with class action suits show they're crooked, how am I going to bet when I see the next one? You think we're all supposed to believe you instead of our lying eyes. Jeez.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#11)
    by nolo on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 01:28:48 PM EST
    Richard, I don't have to take someone who's offended over the fact that someone made a mistake over the identity of a witness very seriously -- if that's what your're talking about (and I'm starting to think neither of us can actually tell). What do you mean when you claim someone filed a deposition in your name? Do you even know what a deposition is?

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 02:10:17 PM EST
    John Edwards' tort reform plan is actually pretty good. It puts more accountability into the process all the way around

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 02:11:24 PM EST
    The insurance industry and self loathing corpulent trial lawyers have demonized consumer rights. ..with the help of the compliant media. The second reason Bushco uses trial lawyer in public is because what they really say is anti semetic

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 03:00:31 PM EST
    I looked and looked in the rules for the place where you would start labeling annonymous postings --

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 03:17:13 PM EST
    Good! Now the asbestos suits are centered around the suffering of people worried they MIGHT get sick from asbestos exposure. Hundreds of firms went out of business for what were legal activities. Line up for your five bucks from a class action siut while the trial lawyers get zillions? When will it end? When will these lawyers who start with a case and then troll for "victims" get a real job that actually adds something to the economy? The NYT "reminds us", TL? Speak for yourself. Newsflash. The NYT is not a credible information source. Forget it, TL. Honest, intelligent people are not fooled by these red herrings.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 04:05:15 PM EST
    Anon, it's here where I state it's an intended addition. Just didn't get around to making it official but I will now.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#15)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 04:47:42 PM EST
    Yeah, Nolo, I know what a depostion is. I've given one. And I know that I didn't give one regarding Denny's. I'd remember. I don't believe that putting a guy in Flagstaff who'd never been to Arizona, getting his SSAN right, but his birthdate wrong, but getting his address right is misidentification. One of the other faux witnesses I contacted said that the date of her supposed deposition was shortly after her purse was stolen. The other two class action suits I've been involved with started with a letter telling me I am in a class which was offended. One offense was Monumental Life's offer of some accidental death insurance through a credit card holder for a buck. The supposed offense was that there was not sufficient effort differentiating accidental death from life insurance. I reread the stuff. It was clear. But I suppose some lawyer had dragged the alley someplace until he found somebody who would admit to being unable to tell the difference. Presto. Sort of like getting some clown to blame McDonald's for his being fat. Somebody out there is without shame. Read an article by a guy who used to work on The Street. Had some African- American buddies who, after he left, sued for discrimination and hostile atmosphere. He found that the brokerage houses budget for this. A lawyer will find a black broker or trader and say, sign here and I'll get you a quarter mill. You really don't want me on a jury hearing a case of this sort. Voir dire me Cancun on your dime would be a good start.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 05:10:46 PM EST
    If you think you have any rights or any right to a lawyer just wait and see what comes out of this. camps anyone?

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#17)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 05:24:05 PM EST
    Fred, the "camps" thing has been done. Approaching a vigorous and active sixty years old as I am, I have seen one or two things. In the Sixties, when I was on campus, there were profs who used to go on about camps for intellectuals. Of course, with a brave smile, they admitted they might be among the residents. Of course, they didn't believe it any more than you do. But it made them feel brave. Or important--what prof wants to feel insignificant--or something. But since, in Mark Steyn's phrase, their lunch wasn't running down their trouser leg, which it would be if they actually believed it, they knew it as nonsense. As do you.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 07:41:31 PM EST
    C'mon, you know the answer to this - "trial lawyers" was a name the plaintiff's personal injury bar gave itself, before the abuses of their bottom-feeders turned it into an epithet. Then they adopted "consumer attorney" instead. It was always a misnomer anyway - most of them are deathly afraid of trials and are lousy at it.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#19)
    by nolo on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 06:39:53 AM EST
    Richard, I'm so glad you're so smart that you read every little bit of fine print that comes to you in every credit card bill you receive. Good on ya. You must have a lot of time on your hands.

    Re: Bush v. Trial Lawyers (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:54:00 PM EST
    "most of them are deathly afraid of trials and are lousy at it." Right, it was all those terrible plaintiff's lawyers bringing utterly frivolous lawsuits for undeserving plaintiffs and losing them that led to juries to award damages so huge that BushCo rallied to cap liability. Jim, you shouldn't comment on issues you obviously know nothing about. TL, note how BushCo won't eliminate liability altogether? The fact is, all the insurance defense and corporate bar folks, and the insurance companies themselves, obviously NEED liability to exist on some level. If there were no liability, what would the insurance companies peddle? What fears would they prey on? No, they need liability to exist. They just need a limit as to how much money a plaintiff can collect. What, with all these juries of idiots awarding multi-million dollar verdicts in wholly frivolous cases. . .. We'll surely see premiums go way down.