home

CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage

by TChris

Prepare to hear more complaints about "activist" judges -- "activist" being defined as any judge who interprets the law in a way that upsets the religious right -- after a California Superior Court judge ruled today that the state's voter-approved definition of marriage as the union of a man and a woman violates the state's constitution.

"The denial of marriage to same-sex couples appears impermissibly arbitrary," wrote San Francisco Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer. "Simply put, same-sex marriage cannot be prohibited solely because California has always done so before."

Drawing an analogy to the "separate-but-equal" justification for school segregation that prevailed before the Brown decision, the judge held that providing "marriage-like rights without marriage" is insufficient to assure equal protection of the law.

< Michael Jackson Accuser Previously Denied Allegations | Kwesi Mfume to Run for Md. Senate >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 03:35:38 PM EST
    According to the article, "Conservative leaders expressed outrage at the ruling and vowed to appeal. 'For a single judge to rule there is no conceivable purpose for preserving marriage as one man and one woman is mind-boggling,' said Liberty Counsel President Mathew Staver." It should be interesting to see how much money Staver and other "conservative" leaders are willing to expend to have the State assume the role of nanny when it comes to what word gay couples may use to describe their relationships.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#2)
    by nolo on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 03:47:28 PM EST
    I'm so tired of those sorts of attacks on judicial rulings -- by which I mean the attacks that question the judge's fundamental power to issue a ruling on the very question that was presented. It's one thing to disagree with the judge, but you step over the line when you start implying that the judge lacked the power (or ought to lack the power) to rule on the question in the first place.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 03:54:47 PM EST
    nolo - Why shouldn't people be allowed to criticize judges? They aren't untouchable, and should be subject to the same scrunity as the rest of the government employees, of which they are one. BTW - As to the ruling, I have previously commented that I don't give a flip who marries who. At best 50% of marriages end in divorce, anyway.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 06:22:17 PM EST
    Instead of government of the people, by the people and for the people. it is government of the courts, by the courts and for the courts.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 06:24:40 PM EST
    Once again, as a californian, I am being forced to face laws that are made, not by congress, but by heathans in black robes. majority rules. we must uprise.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 06:37:10 PM EST
    once more, we're going back to the dark ages with laws being passed by psycopaths with bibles.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#7)
    by cp on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:01:46 PM EST
    interesting. the last time i checked, you get to be a judge one of two ways: 1. you are appointed, by elected officials., or 2. you are elected directly. in the first instance, you have been indirectly elected, being appointed by those who purportedly represent those who directly elected them. in the second instance, you derive your authority directly from the electorate. this being the case, judges, both directly and indirectly elected, have as much legitimacy as any other public official. i get tired of nitwits, like scalia, asserting that judges haven't the same constitutional standing as presidents and congressmen. further, by definition, judges are supposed to be "activist", that's their job. if it wasn't, having them would be a waste of valuable resources. we could just as easily have a machine do it, with a pre-programmed set of responses for each issue. using the term as a pejorative is a right-wing propaganda tactic, that's been bought into by the msm. so, stop it! oh, by the way, 'cause i forgot, what, exactly, is the state's compelling interest in asserting marriage as being strictly between a male and female?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#8)
    by Johnny on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:02:24 PM EST
    Feel that? That tremor you felt was Jesus coming back to make sure no more hein' and hein' is going on Invoking a certain religions viewpoint pertaining to a cultural custom and attempting to write said OPINIONS as law would effectively prohibit any other religious viewpoint on that particular subject from being legally expressed. That is not a separation of church and state. Right now, the only two arguments I hear consistently against gay marriage is a: it will somehow destroy heterosexual marriage, and b: god forbids it. A: Heteros suck at marriage already, projecting our failures at maintaining a relationship onto homosexuals is weak, very weak... B: See the constitution.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#9)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:15:10 PM EST
    PPJ wrote: "Why shouldn't people be allowed to criticize judges? They aren't untouchable," Sheesh, Jim. Read what nolo said again: "It's one thing to disagree with the judge, but you step over the line when you start implying that the judge lacked the power (or ought to lack the power) to rule on the question in the first place." Folks can disagree with a judge's decision. But a judge really would fail to do her job if she was presented a case and she failed to rule on it. That's what some people are claiming judges ought to do.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:29:56 AM EST
    "Posted by jesusfreak: "Once again, as a californian, I am being forced to face laws that are made, not by congress, but by heathans in black robes. majority rules. we must uprise." Majority rules? That's in the legislature. That heathen in black robes is the only thing keeping the Hari Krishna's from telling you what you have to believe. You must not have been born in California. All of our Jesus freaks love EVERYONE. They aren't peddling hatred in the guise of propriety.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:33:06 AM EST
    marriage has two distinct definitions. One legal and one religous. The legal definition is the union of two people under a civil agreement. It gives them certain protections and responsibilities under the law depending on where they live. It has nothing to do with god. It should only be concerned with the legal aspects of their relationship as it interacts with society. The second definition of mariage is religous and should not have anything to do with the state. It can between any two people that your church sanctions. If you god wants to send you to eternal damnation and suffering then great. Talk to your priest not the courts. I don't care to know what your gods opinion is about my relationships. I happen to enjoy having a man/woman relationhip for my marriage but I strongly support others who find love somewhere else. Spend less time worring about other people and raise your kids.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 05:33:27 AM EST
    PIL - No, it is the US military that is keeping some foreign group from telling you what you have to believe. Quaker - That is nonsense. Government employees should be fair game. Period. Judges in particular don't get enough overview and comments. And if someone wants to say a judge lacks, or should lack, the power/right to make a decision.. so what?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#13)
    by nolo on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:43:48 AM EST
    PPJ-- maybe I wasn't clear. I don't think there's anything wrong with criticizing judges. I thought I said that. What concerns me is when people who are upset with a particular ruling make criticisms that, in essence, attack the institution. Believe me, I've criticized any number of judges. Since I do a lot of appellate work, you could even say it was my job to do so. But when I've said that a judge was acting outside his or her actual power, it's only been when I had a legal basis for doing so -- like if I thought the judge was acting outside his or her jurisdiction. Capiche?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#14)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:44:56 AM EST
    DA- The accepted meanings of words are fluid. Argue semantics all you want, it isn’t going to change the reality that sometime in the near future the same laws that regulate services provided to and the rights of heterosexual married couples will extend to homosexual married couples. To my grandfather lame meant an animal needed to be put down, not that a situation was unfortunate; gay meant happy, not buggery. It isn’t nonsense; it is just the way things are. Now if you want to argue that the state shouldn’t be endorsing or otherwise providing special advantage to any couple, I’m with you. But, it isn’t just for the law to discriminate among adults, irrespective of semantics.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 08:37:58 AM EST
    "Gay people can have a relationship of course, but it isn't marriage." Yes it is. According to gay couples who use the term marriage to describe their relationships (with the blessing of their families, friends, churches and communities), it is. After all, if two gay people tell you they are married, are you completely confused as to what they mean? " Calling things by their right names is simply common sense." Sure, but who decides what the "right name" is? Oh yeah, the government should step in to correct folk's usage of the English language, according to "conservatives" who claim to hate the nanny state. Indeed, let's AMEND THE CONSTITUTION to ensure NO STATE or municipality can use the word marriage to describe gays, even if the MAJORITY disagrees in that particular locale. (Should we next amend the constitution to redefine "hypocrisy" as never applying to Republicans?) " Gay people can have a relationship of course. . ." Thanks for your permission, Nanny.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 09:18:49 AM EST
    why should a few religions gets to define civil life -- and the right is being allowed to lie unchallenged on the impact of same sex marriage in other counties hateful bigots if they want to protect the concept of marriage maybe we should eliminate divorce

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 12:42:53 PM EST
    once more, we're going back to the dark ages with laws being passed by psycopaths with bibles. Prescient comment. Judge Richard Kramer is a Roman Catholic.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 01:35:40 PM EST
    It's sick that these courts go against the will of the people for speical intrust groups. A law against gay marriage is constitutional. We have laws which much be in place to keep morality. Murders can't kill leagally, because being alowed to kill would distory society. Drunk driving is illigal because the danger it causes on the road. Gay marrage is an issue which many people are against, because it will destroy society. Studies show children are better off with both parents, one man and one woman. Plus being gay only leads to death, no life comes from a gay relationship and many gays live short lives due to the many STD's as well as the psycohlogical problems it creates. God warned the nation of Israel against doing such things in Leviticus 18. We should listen to what the bible says, this nation was founded on the Word of God. The distruction of the land will come if we do not take heed to the Word of the LORD.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:34:03 PM EST
    good. and i'll say it for the umpteenth time: supposedly straight people who spend inordinate amounts of time worried about what gay people are doing are, well, GAY!! or at least curious enough to desire a good long look at the sexual buffet table. the puritans who founded this country loved their home-brewed beer and hated licentiousness. and look at us now. booze ads everywhere, but a flash of a halftime tit -- at a freakin' professional football game of all things (now THERE'S where values are to be found) -- gets the government and still puritan masses in a tizzy.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:44:17 PM EST
    JR at March 15, 2005 02:35 PM
    that's sarcasm right?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:45:25 PM EST
    i'd rather see two gay people marry, then see two neo-cons dropping their evil babies all over the place

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:43:17 PM EST
    lmao. By the way, if I'm a het male and live next door to lesbian domestic partners, it's okay to covet either one (assuming babelishessness) because they CAN'T be wives, right? They CAN'T be married! Also, if I'm a gay male, is it okay to covet Mr. Robinson? He ain't Mrs. Robinson's wife, after all. I mean, assuming he's also not an ass. And finally, what if I live in Utah? You mean I can't covet ANY of my neighbor's wives? Just asking.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#24)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 04:15:42 PM EST
    JR- You are wrong in so many was, so lets get at it. “It's sick that these courts go against the will of the people for speical intrust groups. A law against gay marriage is constitutional.” Sate or federal constitution? It looks like two states have decided a ban is incongruous with their constitutions. Also, did you notice a push for a federal constitutional amendment? Congress, state or federal, cannot simply make any law, they must make laws that are in line with their enumerated powers and agreeable with rights, recorded in the constitution, provided to the people and states. “We have laws which much be in place to keep morality. Murders can't kill leagally” This is hardly morality legislated. These laws exist, prohibition of murder, theft, whatever, to protect the fundamental liberties of folks. I do not have full employment of my liberty when my neighbor can take my property or life without retribution. “God warned the nation of Israel against doing such things in Leviticus 18. We should listen to what the bible says, this nation was founded on the Word of God.” You should not be allowed to use the state to outlaw behavior you find offensive or to craft legislation designed to create a ‘healthy’ society. If this is permissible, likewise your ability to worship your fictional doomsday deity can be infringed. Are you truly this ignorant?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 04:39:52 PM EST
    ace, your brain is calling. from the airport. it needs a ride back to your skull. my philosophical, sociological oberservation/point had nothing to do with any other valid point on a different trajectory (which yours might well be). more than one issue/angle can be at work at the same time regarding a specific incident or topic, i think we'd both agree on that. or i'd hope we would.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 05:24:29 PM EST
    ace, since you're a bush supporter, your religion must be about,stolen elections, murder for profit, torture, locking people away with no evidence, destruction of the environment, leaving every child behind. Wow ace you've really got me convinced, i want to follow your religion.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 05:35:01 PM EST
    PIL - You have to have read one of my many comments that I don't care who marries who, or has sex with... My only qual, that they be consenting adults. So why all the rambling comments about gays in your response. My comment was, and is, that it is the military that keeps you free from foreign threats. nolo - So what you are saying is that only lawyers should critizie judges. Don't think so, dude. I'm not a second class citizen. And I don't need a special person - the catholics call them priests - to address my "betters."

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#28)
    by nolo on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 05:44:25 PM EST
    Hoo, nooo, PPJ. What I'm saying is that people with agendas shouldn't attack the basic principles of the rule of law when they're mad at how a particular judge ruled on a particular issue. Guess I'm not getting through. Do I need special rabbit ears?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 08:11:53 PM EST
    nolo - Nope, I'm a dish kinda guy myself... But I will sign off saying, I think your approach is too elitist for me. But, whatever flips your lexus nexus. rick1756 - I just realized something. You only come out at night, and even then during the dark of the moon. rw - You missed the most important qualifier.... "Don't get caught."

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 09:59:33 PM EST
    ace, huh? so a certain topic can only be discussed in one context? how did the halftime breast get us here?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 11:05:41 PM EST
    It is not the Christians that wish to impose their will upon the people. But quite the opposite. The legal definition of marriage is a union between a man and a women. It is this tiny minority attempting to impose their sociopolitical agenda on the majority. They are not looking for a social union amendment, but a complete redefinition of existing law, for a few perceived benefits. This is an attack on existing values. The Christians are only defending against this redefinition. This intolerant minority and their judicial apologists have circumvented the law, under the disguise of saving America from the Christians. It is not the Christians that America needs to be saved from, but this type of sociopolitical agenda from a minority group masquerading as a majority. If marriage is redefined, some states like Alabama allow persons as young as 14 to marry with parental consent. Now picture a some crazy rich man getting married to a fickle 14 year old boy that was basically sold by his parents. If MJ is not in jail and a law like this passes, I am sure, he will be the first test case.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 11:11:29 PM EST
    Jesus never said a single thing about marriage.. ~ Paul in LA Please tell me you are joking? You can’t really be that imbecilic, can you?

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#34)
    by Johnny on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 01:20:04 AM EST
    Hey Burgerboy, almost ALL pedophiles are STRAIGHT WHITE MALES, NOT homosexuals. Clear the webs of christian narrowminded bogotry from your eyes and realize what a stupid, bigoted, blind, typical christian fearmongering a$$hole thing you just said... Equating gay marriage to child molestation, OH MY FRUGGING god, are you really that sick in the head? I am just appalled here, I mean... come on... Think before you spew biblical garbage out of your sphincter, for every biblical passage a half-wit jesus worshiper like you can try and think of, any informed anti-bible intellectual can counter, usually with another passage from the same dam book! Take your bigotry and shove it, people deserve to live in a way that makes them feel free, and state endorsed discrimination is unacceptable.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 06:12:34 AM EST
    DA - Of course there is a difference. But if you start defining who can say what about who, where does it end? So maybe, in your opinion, they shouldn't, but in their opinion they should. There is no such thing as partial free speech. I am surprised that you so plainly define the mantra of the Left when it comes to free speech, which is, "We'll tell you what you can say."

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#36)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 06:22:12 AM EST
    Burger Boy- “This intolerant minority and their judicial apologists have circumvented the law, under the disguise of saving America from the Christians” You are just flat wrong. Judges, among other duties, are charged with interpreting the law with respect to the constitution of their state. Two have found that laws which discriminate against gay marriage conflict with their state constitutional. Hence, the push for a state constitutional amendment. By analogy, would you call your postman an apologist for junk mail? Likewise, there is a push for a federal constitutional amendment by conservatives because they know that congress does not have the power to pass a ban, and said ban would not stand a constitutional challenge. Hence, a federal constitutional amendment. OK, really, show me the court decision where the judges have said anything about ‘saving America from Christians’. Get some insight into how the law works; read the decisions yourself. “If marriage is redefined, some states like Alabama allow persons as young as 14 to marry with parental consent. Now picture a some crazy rich man getting married to a fickle 14 year old boy” My God, you have slipped the rails of reason here. Without exception all states require that the couple be at least 18 to marry without parental consent; no state allows the marriage of an openly unwilling participant. So, for your example to be reasonable, both parents would need to be present and sign the license, as well as the youth being willing. Given these circumstances, how is this any more tragic than the same situation with a young girl instead? A ‘crazy rich man’ who dupes any parent into letting them marry their 14-year-old child is a pedophile, irrespective of the sex of the child. So, can I assume you have railed with equal veracity against the unjustness of state ‘judicial apologists for pedophilia’ for supporting current laws of their state? Can I assume that you have argued with equal passion for a federal ban on child brides/grooms? I doubt it; I will assume that you are against homosexual marriage because you think homosexuality is deviant, unholy, and disgusting. Come back when you have arguments in place of your gut reaction and whim.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#38)
    by nolo on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 07:05:26 AM EST
    It's not elitist at all to be worried when people criticize court decisions in a way that is intended to undermine public faith in the rule of law. When people lose their respect for the basic institution and its processes, next thing you get is judges and their families getting shot in retribution. PPJ's smart enough to see this, but he's not interested in anything but picking a fight.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#39)
    by nolo on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 07:12:43 AM EST
    John Rogers, who is no lily-livered liberal, puts my point much better than I ever could at this recent post on his fabulous weblog, Kung Fu Monkey:
    You can disagree with a judge overturning a law you like, fine, that's democracy. But implying the judge has no right to overturn a law because said law represents the will of the majority, and therefore that judge is an "activist" judge, well, sadly, that reveals a depth of ignorance about the Constitution and the writings of the Founding Fathers which automatically disqualifies you from the discussion.
    Read the rest here.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 08:40:38 AM EST
    pigwiggle I am not against homosexual marriage. I am not against a social union amendment. I am against the legal redefinition of Marriage, and that is precisely what this Judge did. Only legislators have the power to make laws, not militant judges. This judge went far beyond interpreting the law and in reality imposed his own sociopolitical agenda. Johnny I thought we were going to have a battle of wits, but I see you have come unprepared.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#41)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 09:59:46 AM EST
    BurgerBoy- “I am against the legal redefinition of Marriage, and that is precisely what this Judge did. … Only legislators have the power to make laws, not militant judges. This judge went far beyond interpreting the law and in reality imposed his own sociopolitical agenda.” For the love of God, read the decision . Again, judges do not define words or legislate. They are charged with, among other duties, deciding if laws passed by the legislature of their state are consistent with the constitution of that state. Both litigants (the state of California and the grouped parties suing California) agreed that the law was incongruous with the constitution. A law can be incongruous with any provision of a constitution (federal or state) as long as the government can show there is a compelling interest to infringe upon this right. California was unable to show a convincing compelling interest. A constitution is difficult to amend and as such stands to protect certain rights that are considered uniquely important. Congress cannot simply make any law to prohibit free speech, for example. They must either craft a law that will stand the test of compelling interest, or they must amend the constitution such that it is consistent with the new law. Again, the judge did not make law or redefine anything; if Californians want such a law they need only modify their constitution.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 10:01:14 AM EST
    Skippy Added this Article to BringVisibility.com's Article list. Come over and recommend this article for others.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 12:21:09 PM EST
    doesn't ace remind you of jerry falwell? he's thinks he's right about everything, and the laws should be changed so everybody has to follow his demented viuews of religion. doc, try therapy and medication, they've had some success with megalomania.

    Re: CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 07:12:50 PM EST
    Why don't all of you repressed republication men just relax. Try a man on for size and that wife at home that occupies your loveless marriage will be a distant memory. God, Jesus, and "morality" are curtains to hide behind because you can't admit that you really like it when daddy spanked you. Lastly, stop having so many babies to teach your hate