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The Red Lake Killings and Prozac

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 11:27:02 AM EST
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Jeff Weise, the 16 year old who killed seven and then himself this week at his high school, had been taking Prozac. The news will now focus on whether Prozac causes violence and suicide.

David Neiwert at Orcinus has some different thoughts, focusing racial and religious bigotry. Weise was a Native American with neo-Nazi beliefs - a combination, David says, should not be surprising.

After all, it has been known for some time that the Ku Klux Klan has actively attempted to recruit tribal members from the Lakota Sioux and other reservations for years.

...Much of the conventional wisdom coming out of the Red Lake massacre was that Jeff Weise was "deeply troubled." No doubt in coming days and weeks we'll hear how this was an "isolated incident." How "the only person responsible" for what happened was Weise himself. Heaven forfend that anyone should suggest that the kind of hatred of multiculturalism so common on the mainstream right nowadays -- and so significant a factor in Weise's beliefs -- might have played a role in fueling this rampage.

Still another angle to the story is the similarity of Weise to the Columbine killers. Eric Harris had been taking Luvox, a drug similar to Prozac. This doctor says they should not be prescribed for children.

Why were these kids on anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medication in the first place? I hope the media coverage won't ignore the culture of intolerance that exists at these schools, and that it is a factor that has existed with most school shootings: the shooters were taunted, ridiculed and made to feel like outsiders and outcasts. Our schools should be developing zero-tolerance policies for students who practice the politics of exclusion.

Here's a letter to the editor (pdf, you may need to zoom in for a clear read) of the Rocky Mountain News from May, 1999, by a parent who describes a Columbine-area school's reaction to her complaints that her child was subjected to harsh and constant anti-semitic taunts by other students. The principal says one thing, the district superintendant another. Are things any better today?

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    The Red Lake Killings and Prozac | 30 comments (30 topical)
    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#1)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 12:31:42 PM EST
    Somebody said once "If god(substitute:wisdom,compassion, intelligence)were in a pill,he wouldnt be god."

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#2)
    by Kitt on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    On CNN's 'Inside The Blogs' there was this blog written by a teacher who taught at the Red Lake School; he's teaching somewhere else now. He has comments regarding the school, the reservation, etc., on his blog. I figured Dave Neiwert would as well. Something I read somewhere, this person noted that this poor kid was into Nazism and he wasn't even white. Could one say Nazism is an ideology in which the culture or race doesn't necessarily matter, it's the idea of purity and/or purification of said culture or race?

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 01:25:05 PM EST
    I just blogged on the Prozac thing. As someone who went misdiagnosed for years, I know the deleterious effect of the wrong medication. I don't know that the kid was misdiagnosed, and I don't know that Prozac had a causal relationship with his shooting rampage. But you can bet that the MSM, fueled by propaganda from places like the Independence Institute, will latch onto it like a barnacle to a boat. There can be no proof that Prozac had any role at all in these shootings--the effects of drugs can only be definitively determined in large, controlled studies. But assuming Prozac did have a role, it is likely that the kid was being medicated for the wrong condition, or that he had a condition (like being beat up on a daily basis) that no drug will help--in which case Prozac could have been fuel to the fire. Or Prozac had nothing to do with anything, just like Marilyn Manson, computer games, trench coats, horoscopes, and any number of other leaps of causation people tried to ascribe in the Columbine case. Dave Cullen, the foremost media expert on Columbine, has a great repository if Columbine information starting here.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 01:44:58 PM EST
    Wow. The pres-o-dent finally took time off from his... time off from his vacation to talk about this tragedy. And it only took him...almost a week.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#5)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 03:27:16 PM EST
    Hey, Ern, you know this is the most stressful time in America's history, although the war is a complete success in which not one single mistake was made, and the economy is stronger than it's ever been. (Both statements made by the Vacation President himself.) So, you know, watch what you say. (Also a White House statement.)

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 04:58:21 PM EST
    WRT Prozac, there's also the chance that he was on too *low* of a dose.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 06:01:49 PM EST
    I'm not one to have any knowledge of clinical studies involving Prozac, but there was a case about a year ago in my part of Missouri involving a man and his wife who were so hopped on Prozac that they attacked a neighbor they had accused on shooting their dog on the neighbor's property scaring his horses. That neighbor was ultimately forced to blow these two idiots away at his front door after they stormed into the house and struggled with both him and his wife for control of a shotgun and a knife. First the husband went to the house, while the wife stayed in the car parked at a church across the road, and, when the husband didn't return as expected, she went over to add her contribution to the fray. These two had been leaving eerie telephone messages for days before the invasion, and the husband had told as many as would listen to him that he was going to put this neighbor and his family in the hospital. What saved the neighbor from a murder charge was the fact that as soon as the two Prozac rangers commenced their assault on the home, the neighbor's wife called the sheriff's department on their cell-phone and kept the line open throughout the entire incident. The dispatcher not only heard the audio of the entire incident but patched it through to the deputies madly driving, trying to get to the house in time to save anyone. [The local p.d. office (where I work) kept close tabs on the matter in the event that any charges were filed. In fact, we contacted the neighbor to make sure he had some counsel before any investigations went down. The Mo. p.d. system has capital case offices; the local trial offices handle case preparation until the case is certified, then the local office assists as necessary. The case had all the makings of a homicide chargable as murder: we wanted to be ahead of the power curve.] The coroner's inquest - which found self-defense for the neighbor - was interesting in that the examiner determined that both the attackers had a fatal overdosage (really!) of Prozac in their systems, and that degree of dosage led them to act as if bulletproof. They went to their deaths completely fearless of the consequences of their actions to themselves or others. Chemically induced amorality. Very, very chilling. The Red Lake shootings sound worrisomely similar. - Bob Brandon, Ava, Mo.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 06:13:35 PM EST
    A link between Prozac and depression and suicide- wow I bet the lawyers and MSM are all over this. I think they need to do a study on chemotherapy drugs. Something is fishy there too: such a high percentage of these people are dying from cancer! Sounds like another opportunity for the ambulance chasers and low life reporters who have nothing productive to do. Please- get a grip and a real job.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 06:30:32 PM EST
    Prozac and other SSRIs don't cause abnormal feelings or behavior in otherwise normal people at therapeutic doses. There is no real black market potential, except for uninformed thrill-seeking teenagers. On the other hand, not everyone diagnosed with depression is in fact simply depressed. For example, bipolar people are often first diagnosed as depressed, usually because patients don't complain about the manic symptoms. But antidepressants can trigger mania in bipolar people. I don't know what happens above the therapeutic dosage, but if someone is taking a lethal overdose I'd be inclined to think that something else was wrong anyway. Many years ago, when Prozac was new, there was a rash of lawsuits claiming Prozac caused suicides. That died down and then SSRIs were prescribed for children. Now there are lawsuits claiming SSRIs cause suicide in children. No one ever notes that people diagnosed with depression are already at risk for suicide, or that any given antidepressant may not work on any specific individual.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 01:32:02 AM EST
    from what i understand his father was killed by the police and he had been forced into government drug use, the same drugs that have been involved in all the school killings over the last 8 years, ask why and ask why are our kids doing this?

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 01:33:11 AM EST
    To TalkLeft, good work.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 01:57:57 AM EST
    Michael Ditto: "There can be no proof that Prozac had any role at all in these shootings--" There is prima facie evidence that it MAY WELL be. "the effects of drugs can only be definitively determined in large, controlled studies." Nonsense. The danger of drugs like Prozac™ is undeterminable on the edges of the bell curve, no matter how 'big' or controlled the study. " But assuming Prozac did have a role, it is likely that the kid was being medicated for the wrong condition" Medicate him for having no parents. Medicate him for being dispossessed by the US gov't. Medicate him for having a lousy diet and a lousy president who encourages neo-Nazi teenagers who want to shoot guns. "Or Prozac had nothing to do with anything," Just like Bush. Never made a mistake he could admit to. As Jon Stewart said, paraphrasing Rumsfeld, "The people below me betrayed the people above me."

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 02:12:39 AM EST
    allen: "Many years ago, when Prozac was new, there was a rash of lawsuits claiming Prozac caused suicides. That died down" And so did the misdiagnosed, maltreated patients. These are pharmaceutical drugs, COMMONLY over-prescribed. How does that happen? Could millions of dollars in lobbying, advertizing, and bribing of medical doctors have something to do with it? Who would do such a thing? Merch, meet Merck. Ritalin, or handcuffs. Your disassociated, anomic children acting violent and considering suicide? TRy New Ritalin-Prozac Plus, for children especially vulnerable to cognitive dissonance. Is our children drooling? Make your boys into men, in the Juvenile Guard. 'There will be a nuclear bomb blast if you try to hide your children, so let's not make daddy mad.' -- Dick Cheney

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#14)
    by John Mann on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 05:22:02 AM EST
    Prozac, my ass. What caused these killings and the countless thousands of others that occur every year in the United States was the easy availability of guns. Naturally the gun loonies will huff and puff about the Second Amendment and point out that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and all the other crap they spout, but it takes a very stupid person to write off the relationship between the number of guns in the United States and the number of murders. Try as I might, I can't think of a single high school killing spree that was committed by a person using something other than a gun or guns.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peaches on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 06:02:27 AM EST
    Heaven forfend that anyone should suggest that the kind of hatred of multiculturalism so common on the mainstream right nowadays -- and so significant a factor in Weise's beliefs -- might have played a role in fueling this rampage. This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. If anything multiculturalism fueled the pyshcological breakdown of Weise. Newart has no idea what it is like growing up on Native American. These kids are pulled everywhich way. There is a responsibility to keep their traditions that the elders in the community expect them to live up to. At the same time they are expected to "make it" in the white world. Meanwhile, multiculutralism and "do-good" leftist from the white mainstream encourage a politics of identity and difference. Needless to say, NA kids are pulled in several direction and most end up in poverty despite all the good intenions of Multiculturalism that has had over 40 years to show some benefits to poor and disenfranchised and nothing has come of it. Right wingers love the multiculturist because they are such an easy target and the preach politics of difference. Instead of following in the tradition of American ideals which preach "liberty and justice for all" no matter race, religion or creed. We3 have lost what binds us asAMericans and where we should find place our national pride -- not in all powerful military and economy, but ideals placing equal opportunity for all above all else and that strives for social justice through the elimination of prejedice and discrimnination. Sure, inididuals hjave a right to identify with their particular culture, but they are not required to. The only requirement for being AMerican (our culuure) is that we believe in the equality of every individual. WEise was a disturbed individual and Prozac and the condition of his psyche (which environmental influece played a huge part in influencing - father's sucicied mothers accident) played a far greater role in this tragedy than the distrust of multiculturalism in AMerica.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 08:08:44 AM EST
    Paul: Einstein, Newton, and Ptolemy were all men. Einstein, Newton, and Ptolemy were all geniuses. Therefore, all men are geniuses. John Mann: Guns were only backup weapons at Columbine. Harris and Kleibold's real intentions were to blow up the school. It's only owing to the fact that they were exceedingly bad at making bombs that we didn't have another Oklahoma City on our hands.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#17)
    by roy on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 09:59:38 AM EST
    John Mann,
    What caused these killings and the countless thousands of others that occur every year in the United States was the easy availability of guns.
    In this case, the killer stole a gun from a cop. Are you suggesting we should disarm our police officers? The cop may have screwed up by leaving his gun laying around where a kid could easily get to it, but that's already illegal in many places.
    ...it takes a very stupid person to write off the relationship between the number of guns in the United States and the number of murders.
    It's similarly difficult to write off the relationship between the number of armed Americans and the number of potential victims who defends themselves against crime.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#18)
    by John Mann on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 11:46:36 AM EST
    Michael Ditto wrote: "John Mann: Guns were only backup weapons at Columbine. Harris and Kleibold's real intentions were to blow up the school." I'm sure the victims' families will be relieved to know their kids were murdered by "backup weapons". Are you postulating that there is no relationship between the number of guns in the United States and the number of people that are murdered by guns in the United States? If not, what's your point? I think we both know that every mass murder of students in high schools was committed by individuals using guns - or am I wrong about that?. Roy wrote: "In this case, the killer stole a gun from a cop. Are you suggesting we should disarm our police officers?" No. But so what? The kid might just as well have stolen a gun from someone else, or simply saved his money - or stole enough money from someone - and gone down to the gun store to buy an assault rifle. Anyone wanting a gun in the United States has no trouble at all getting one. "It's similarly difficult to write off the relationship between the number of armed Americans and the number of potential victims who defends themselves against crime." Is it your position that everyone in the United States is a potential crime victim, and that potential criminals can be thwarted by making sure every potential victim is armed? Isn't this a little like playing with fire?

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 12:31:09 PM EST
    Oh, well it was Prozac. That explains everything. All wrapped up with a neat little bow. Thank goodness we don't have to worry about the reservations.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 01:19:02 PM EST
    Michael Ditto: "Einstein, Newton, and Ptolemy were all men. Einstein, Newton, and Ptolemy were all geniuses. Therefore, all men are geniuses." Prozac, Celebrex, and Ritalin are all used in medicine. Prozac, Celebrex, and Ritalin are all overprescribed to make MONEY. Therefore, making MONEY is the reason for medicine. As long as they're making money, who cares if the drugs kill a percentage of the people who take them. I see your logic. The most expensive medical system in the world cannot afford to make less money in the interest of the patients.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 03:53:53 PM EST
    Some people are better at propaganda than truth, it seems. SSRIs probably are over-prescribed, but that's because they're generally harmless when they're not needed. On the other hand, if it's what you need it can save your life. Ritalin has been overprescribed mostly because parents and teachers don't want to do there jobs. I'm also not aware of any significant improvement in diagonosis of depression or other mental illnesses since the advent of Prozac. These are diseases that are all diagnosed primarily by behavior and self-description. It would be nice if there was something similar to a blood test, but there isn't yet. I'm not a big fan of the drug companies but profit is not the major reason that these medications are overprescribed. In fact, Prozac is available in generic form these days.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 06:01:05 PM EST
    Those are the whitest Indians I've ever seen. What are they 1/32 Indian? Generation after generation of "Indian" girls getting pregnant by white guys. No wonder they all have European features and brown hair is as common as brunette. The most devastating problem on Indian Reservations is welfare. End of story.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 11:19:50 PM EST
    allen: "Some people are better at propaganda than truth, it seems." Yep: Ask your doctor if Prozac is right for you. "SSRIs probably are over-prescribed," There is no 'probably' to it. They are overprescribed, and they are prescribed for period FAR exceeding the efficacy of the drug (they are commonly used as placebo). "but that's because they're generally harmless when they're not needed." No, they are not harmless, which is why a number of people have suggested that they CAUSE VIOLENT BEHAVIOR. Church of Medicine dogma aside, the truth of that concern is NOT yet resolved. The amygdala(s) is associated with violent emotion. If serotonin-uptake inhibitors cause a local imbalance in SOME persons leading to violence about self or others, that is a very serious matter. If a person who commits such a violent act is on psychiatric medicine, the correlation is a significant concern. "On the other hand, if it's what you need it can save your life." What can heal, can harm, when it comes to Rx drugs. That's WHY they are Rx. Bribing doctors to prescribe Rx drugs, allowing consumer advertizing for Rx drugs, encouraging the practice of polypharmacy with Rx drugs--all these things are suspicious activities. "Ritalin has been overprescribed mostly because parents and teachers don't want to do there jobs." Parents and teachers make ZERO money off Ritalin. The drug companies and doctors-in-their-pay that DO make money are the likely suspects in overprescription of this STIMULANT. "I'm also not aware of any significant improvement in diagonosis of depression or other mental illnesses since the advent of Prozac." That really isn't the issue I have raised. The issue is promoting drugs as you have: 'no' downside. If you misprescribe and the person commits a violent crime, blame the patient. That's profit talking. "I'm not a big fan of the drug companies but profit is not the major reason that these medications are overprescribed." Oh really. Well, that's OK then. According to you, they are overprescribed because they are harmless if not needed. Which is flat out ridiculous, and NO doctor would say such a thing without a profit motive. " In fact, Prozac is available in generic form these days." Made by non-profit grandmas in their basements, right?

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 06:20:44 AM EST
    I feel that our goal of "keeping kids off drugs" should also apply to the over-prescribed, pharmacuetical variety. Dope is not always the answer to depression.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 08:42:25 AM EST
    DA..good stuff. They could always raise the price of Viagra. Old men will pay their weight in gold to get wood again. There is no need to force feed our kids pyscotropics.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:52:47 PM EST
    According to you, they are overprescribed because they are harmless if not needed. Which is flat out ridiculous, and NO doctor would say such a thing without a profit motive. That's blatantly false. There are real problems with drug companies, the FDA and the way drugs are marketed, but you're so deep in some bizarre conspiracy theory that you'll never be able to address those problems. And I don't know how to discuss things with people that deep into delusion. Just for general information, clinical depression is a brain disorder. There are a very few forms of talk therapy that have shown some effectiveness. But even using those therapies results are better if an antidepressant is also used. You've got to get into the brain and adjust the brain. Of course, figuring out what adjustment the brain needs can often be a trial and error process. And untreated depression is more likely to lead to suicide.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 06:10:29 PM EST
    Paul I am a Geninses in my own mind. This kid was murdered by our system, he did evil but did he know it as evil? this poor kid can only be looked at as one more sad victim, as much as the kids he killed, Because in the end all are the same victim of an insane system.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 04:31:58 PM EST
    These school shootings are not being caused by any of the reasons previously listed here. There is a conflict of physiology known to cause a psychotic mental break for knowledge workers. Engineers designing the first close-spaced office workstations discovered it when workers began having bizarre or psychotic episodes. The Cubicle solved the problem by the 1960's. The explanation of the phenomenon is actually given in psychology lectures on Psychophysics, Physiology of Sight, Subliminal Sight, and Peripheral Vision Reflexes. So few people know about the problem that it is never considered when one of these violent events happen. Weiss already had mental problems that could have been caused by low exposure to the phenomenon at home. When he was sent home he had all day to use that computer. If he incorrectly installed it so there was movement in the room or a blinking light on the CPU case to cause repeating subliminal peripheral vision reflexes, that would eventually cause the mental break. He acted out the delusion the phenomenon caused. It is more complicated than that but these post windows are not large enough to have the full discussion. Visit my site and perform the psychology demonstration-experiment to prove you too have Subliminal Peripheral Vision and can habituate stimulus in seconds. L K Tucker http://VisionAndPsychosis.Net Red Lake Shooting page Everquest Connection page.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:54:35 PM EST
    we live in a drug crazy world where mothers are breaking off half their valume for little johny.Its creating a decadant debauched,sodomite culture.

    Re: The Red Lake Killings and Prozac (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 02:00:49 PM EST
    There is currently an abundance of evidence available that conclusively supports a connection between SSRIs and violence, including teen suicide. I am sick and tired of people arguing the "what came first, the chicken or the egg" theory. The bottom line is that for virtually all of these horrible incidents that we are all too familiar with now involving teens and violence, the common denominator seems to be antidepressants. Then, my question is, "Why was it only after antidepressant use began that these kids carried out their heinous acts"? Obviously, the antidepressants did not prevent the patient from going into a manic rage and more than likely triggered the lethal outburst. This is a common phenomenon associated with SSRIs known as akathisia. This country needs a complete reform of our current medical community beginning with the cozy arrangement that exists between the FDA and the drug companies. Unfortunately, the FDA thinks their primary responsibility is to the drug companies to assist them in making as much money as possible rather than insuring the safety of the citizens. Example: The abundance of drug advertising that now exists in the mass media. Do you think the FDA changed that law in 1997 to make us informed informed consumers or to pad the pockets of the drug companies? Easy answer: Since that law went into effect the drug companies are devoting more and more of their profits to advertising while their profits are surging as a direct result. The end result of all of this is that we have become an overmedicated society. Lucky us!

    The Red Lake Killings and Prozac | 30 comments (30 topical)