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Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security

By TChris, Section Other Politics
Posted on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 08:46:01 AM EST
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by TChris

Those who demonize individuals who cross the border in search of jobs to feed their families tend to place no blame on the employers who provide those jobs. In addition, they tend to disregard the benefits to the U.S. economy that result from that employment, including contributions to the social security system that the president claims is in a state of crisis.

As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

Those contributions comprised about 10 percent of last year's surplus. The workers aren't eligible to receive benefits, so they contribute without expecting or receiving a corresponding benefit. The loss of those financial contributions would be significant, and the Social Security Administration counts on those continuing contributions when it projects the solvency of the Social Security Trust Fund.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

A simulation by Social Security's actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central assumption, the system's 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent - savings that come out to half a trillion dollars, valued in today's money. Illegal immigrants help even more because they will never collect benefits.

As the nation struggles to balance the need for secure borders and the business community's desire for low income workers, those who debate the issue should remember the financial benefits that the social security system reaps when "other-than-legal immigrants" are permitted to work.

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    Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security | 37 comments (37 topical)
    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:33:13 AM EST
    Are you suggesting that we allow criminal behavior to occur because we like the money? BTW, where does the money come from the state and local governments spend educating children of illegals, treating illegals in hospitals, and other government monies spent on illegals? Why do you want to "offshore" US jobs onshore? If you think the minimum wage should ever be raised, then GWB's "guest worker" program is a terrible idea.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:49:09 AM EST
    Those who demonize individuals who cross the border in search of jobs to feed their families Are you kidding me? Have you ever been to Latin America? I've been throughout Mexico and Central America for years. I've also worked with illegals here for years. They and their families are/were absolutely not starving south of the border. Trust me, south of the border is far removed from what we remember of Biafra in the late '60's and what you imply here. Unbelievable.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 11:16:49 AM EST
    And yet more evidence that we need to both secure our borders and revamp the social security system.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:18:37 PM EST
    Those who demonize individuals who cross the border in search of jobs to feed their families tend to place no blame on the employers who provide those jobs. Nothing like a heaping heap of straw in the morning. I'll be sure to alert all five people who match that description that - like everyone else - they should blame the employers and the governments instead of the illegal aliens themselves. I note that the AZ Republic had a very similar report six weeks back. The NYT, following a second-tier rag? As for the other costs of illegal immigration, see for instance "Illegal aliens cost California billions". I note also that Bush supports Social Security for illegal aliens. As do, presumably, the big, corrupt corporations that employ those illegal aliens. So, why is TalkLeft on their side and not on the side of the great majority of U.S. citizens?

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:19:24 PM EST
    sarc...starving is probably a stretch...would you object to dirt poor?

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:43:36 PM EST
    No, kdog, in general, absolutely not "dirt poor." In fact, in Mexico, in general, the only folks I would consider "dirt poor" are the conditions their Native Peoples are relegated to. Go travel in Latin America. You will be suprised - in a positive way - with their living conditions. Go rent "Y tu mama tambien" - the main characters are obvously upper class, but as the movie progresses you see the Mexican countryside and how most Mexicans live. No "dirtier" than southern TX, NM, AZ or CA. Most of the illegals I meet are sending most of their money home to buy cars and houses. A far, far cry from "feeding their families."

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 12:44:16 PM EST
    1:43 me

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 01:42:56 PM EST
    Some Latin Americans have houses and cars? Holy cow! That means none of them could possibly be impoverished, and "sou" knows, because he allegedly talked to a few illegals and saw uppper class mexicans portrayed in "y tu mama tambien."

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 02:05:06 PM EST
    That's "suo" to you, pjb. I guess you don't understand the meaning of the phrase "in general." The movie reference was for kdog who lives in NYC and obviously isn't going to travel south of the border any time soon. But, those that know that what I write is true will disregard your comments, and those who are ignorant of the truth will believe them. Such is life.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#11)
    by cp on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 02:29:00 PM EST
    slaves contributed significantly to the economy of the united states, as noted by a. lincoln. i doubt you will be suggesting anytime soon that we should start that "peculiar institution" back up, to take advantage of the economic benefits it afforded those not so enslaved. further, the report was far more interesting for the analysis left out of the equation: the offsetting costs, to the state,federal and local coffers, of these undocumented aliens. costs i'm willing to bet far exceed the nominal 7 billion in ss trust fund revenues they generate annually. i submit that it would be a better idea to work with those mexican, latin and south american governments, to provide an economy that sustains their populations in-country, regardless of the negative impact to social security from their absence here.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#12)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 03:15:26 PM EST
    Sarcastic unnamed one, I've been to Mexico, and there were most definitely dirt-poor people, and that was close to a touristy area. You're real believable.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 03:16:48 PM EST
    that $7b is an estimate at best. just wondering what is the benefit of an employer paying ss taxes for someone working for him illegally? don't bode to well for the feds getting there share fairly (legally), but there are always other considerations and enumerations for compensation.
    And yet more evidence that we need to both secure our borders and revamp the social security system.
    do you have any idea when this administration will be forthcoming with a plan for either?

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 03:55:20 PM EST
    cp - Good idea, but what is it about their social/government/economic/education system that has prevented them from progressing in the past??

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 04:37:09 PM EST
    TChris' headline is correct: "Undocumented workers." The NYT article is INCORRECT: "illegal immigrant workers.' A great amount of those immigrants are not 'illegal,' they are undocumented, which does NOT mean that they are here illegally. It means that the INS has, in a great many cases, delayed the paperwork needed. The INS functions as a racist organization. People with rich contacts in the country are ushered in a few days. Persons without such contacts, but with skills, employability, willingness to work (usually more than one job), and GOOD INTENTIONS, can wait over a decade to get papers. Posted by sarcastic unnamed one: "They and their families are/were absolutely not starving south of the border." Noooo, there's no starvation in Mexico, Sarcastic says. Just take his WORD for it. Of course, the World Bank says that "According to 2000 data, 53 percent of the country’s population is poor (living on less than $2 per day), while close to 24 percent is extremely poor (living on less than $1 per day)." Twelve percent of Mexicans have NO access to potable water. (The World Bank brags about this -- considering it a great improvement over a decade ago). But trust Sarcastic, he's BEEN there. He's worked with 'illegals,' probably blowing leaves around the way he spews his mistaken impressions.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 05:06:13 PM EST
    They are not "undocumented workers". They are illegal aliens and thus criminals.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 05:13:09 PM EST
    They are not criminals. Persons who have entered this country without a visa or remain past their visa dates have violated the civil immigration laws but not the criminal law. They have not committed a crime. From the National Association of Hispanic Journalists:
    "Undocumented immigrant" or "undocumented worker" is correctly used to describe the immigration status of people who do not have the federal documentation to show they are legally entitled to work, visit or live here. We object to the term "illegal alien" because it criminalizes the person rather than the actual act of illegally entering, or residing in the U.S. without documents. The term "illegal alien" or "illegal immigrant" does not give an accurate description of a person's conditional U.S. status, but rather demeans an individual by describing them as an alien. Such terms are considered pejorative not only by those to whom they are applied but by many people of the same ethnic and national backgrounds who are in the U.S. legally.
    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 07:26:36 PM EST
    Nance, which better describes the circumstances of the immigrants you describe: 1. forced in by gunpoint, or 2. suffering lethal odds desperately to get in? So what does that tell you? And so why are the Wall Street crowd "pricks"? I'll bet it's because they have more money than you. TL, the borders must be better policed, because coming in among the desperate are the truly criminal. Americans who live in border areas are suffering because of illegal immigration; that is why the vigilante groups.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 09:12:40 PM EST
    Well, if the NAHJ says it it must be true. Meanwhile, back in the real world of laws, the U.S. Code is chock-a-block full of the phrase "illegal aliens". Check it out some time.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 09:45:36 PM EST
    Honestly, when people make ridiculous claims that all Mexicans are driving cars and living in nice houses and loving it, I have a hard time buying the rest of your rhetoric. As someone else mentioned, real statistics from reputable world organizations tell a different story, a vastly different story from that of people loving life flush with money. And as to the guy who siad "go look at the US code", well I did just that, and found two mentions of the word illegal alien in the table of contents of 8 USC CHAPTER 12 - IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY. And no mention of it anywhere in 8 USC Sec 1101, the Definitions sections, where in it DEFINES the wide variety of aliens and foreign nationals and other immigrants.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 11:42:16 PM EST
    Hey Sean, try this search. A more comprehensive search could find more. Are there any "reputable world organizations"? Small case in point: the U.N.'s rapporteur(euse) on human rights says illegal immigrants (from Guatamala, etc.) are treated nicely in Mexico. Mexico's own human rights commission says she's wrong.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 12:59:51 AM EST
    Ace: "TL, the borders must be better policed, because coming in among the desperate are the truly criminal. Americans who live in border areas are suffering because of illegal immigration; that is why the vigilante groups." NONSENSE. The suggestion is immediately nullified by Bush's approval of the plan to let the Mexican semitrucks into the country, and inspect 1 out of 20 of them. If someone 'sneaks into the country to do us harm,' they aren't coming to live and work. They will stream across the borders IN THOSE SEMI-TRUCKS just fine, thanks. The vigilantes are there because they are racist Republicans trying to whip up hysteria, ala the 'Red Scare' in the 1920s. We are no safer with them there, and their behavior, were it needed, would PROVE that Bush is a big fat liar and cares nothing about our national security. But that's not what we hear coming out of your lips, Ace. All we hear is smooching sounds. Lonewacko, WHY does that UN official say that? Why did Negroponte lie to Congress about the Guatemalan death squads? Why did Bush lie about Iraq's disarmed status? Are there any "reputable Bush officials"? No, not one. Even the Powell and his Doctrine have exited stage left, his ass and his Doctrine ripped off by Bush's slavering dogs of war. You find time to attack the UN with minor inconsistencies, while Bush drives a Stryker right through our national health care money.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 07:21:15 AM EST
    PIL - "Slavering dogs of war!" Stop! I'm an old man, and bouts of uncontrolable laughter are hard on me. I mean good heaven. That reads like a passage from an early 50's pulp horror magazine. Death Squads? CIA? I did a little googling, found a bunch of posts from leftist blogs, etc., one article from Harper, but nothing from the MSM news media. Maybe I just didn't dig deep enough, or maybe what we have here is some more "slavering dogs of war" overstatements. But you know what PIL? It doesn't matter. Our problem now is with RADICAL Moslems. In the meantime, US citizens, especially the lower class, are having their wages depressed by illegal aliens coming across and taking the jobs that would pay more if not for the availability of the illegals. And the government doesn't care very much. The Repubs want the cheap labor and the Demos want the votes. Actually both sides want both. The people who are benefitting from this is the upper middle class, and they cover both ends. Check out the Nanny gate stories.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 09:03:35 AM EST
    Jim, The repugs don't need the votes anymore, thanks to Diebold.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 09:44:11 AM EST
    scar, pil, sean, prisc, Again, please try to understand the phrase "in general." IN GENERAL the illegals are not choosing between staying south of the border and not being able to feed their families, or crossing the border and being able to feed their families. IN GENERAL food is not the issue SotB. Yes there are poor people in Mexico, even by Mexican standards. As there are poor people in America. I never said there weren't. As I said the poorest people I've seen in Mexico are their Native Peoples. However, IN GENERAL, even among their Native Peoples we're not talking about emaciatied bodies with distended bellies and flies crawling in and out of babies' mouths as TChris's propaganda might lead one to believe. Ah, never mind.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 10:34:16 AM EST
    Those who demonize individuals who cross the border in search of jobs to feed their families
    I don't think this qualifies as "propaganda". Why does anyone get a job? To feed themselves and their families. No mention of emaciation, or starvation.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 11:15:12 AM EST
    Kdog - propaganda because they can, in general, feed their families in their native country. TChris's comments imply that they can only do so by crossing our border illegally. Propaganda because if someone is crossing our border illegally to save his family from dying of starvation, ie., that's the only way he can "feed his family," then none of us would, in good conscience, deny them of that opportunity. But if someone is crossing our border illegally to be able to work to buy more "stuff," and some of that "stuff" is food that he was perfectly able to buy at home, well, the issue has just become less cut and dried. You don't have to believe me (not that any here have) but can you believe what appears to be a neutral voice? "Malnutrition and food insecurity are huge problems in the world. [snip] Latin America suffers only marginally of these problems, in comparison to many other parts of the world. In contrary, it belongs to [the group of countries who are] food exporters, and therefore the food insecurity problem is by far not as relevant an issue for Mexico as it is for many other, even middle-income countries, particularly in Asia." Linked text I live in LA. Among many other things, I've accompanied my church (yes, the evil "C" word) to Tijuana, bought the materials, and built homes there for the needy. My wife and I are sponsors of several children in Guatemala. Not nearly as much as we could do, but something, anyway. I do try to look at issues honestly, unlike what TChris wrote.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 11:15:37 AM EST
    ...over half of this country used to belong to Mexico... Perhaps in the grand scheme of history a reckoning is at hand... the United States is more ours than any one of yours. Our family histories were shaped and formed from this very land, yours is across the sea in Europe somewhere... Well, I'm convinced. This is definitely your land, and I see no reason to impede your progress to reclaiming it. All Anglo-Saxons and Caucasians form a line! We need to go back to somewhere in Europe, now! TChris, you lead that group! Jeralyn, you get that group on the boats! Get a move on!

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 11:29:49 AM EST
    I will agree it is not cut and dried, sarc. Thanks for your take on it.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 01:14:42 PM EST
    Utah recently went to a two tier license system for non citizens. A lady in the newspaper was complaining about it and threatening to go back to Mexico. I guess sometime in the 90's she decided to move to the USA so she sold her HOME in Mexico and paid her way up here with part of the proceeds. Would that some of our citizens had homes to sell and other countries to go to to work in. The problem in Latin America (and in the USA) is corruption. Those at the top messing with those at the bottom. Mexico has oil money. Solve that problem and illegal immigration goes away. The Mexicans can stay home and work in their home country which I am sure that they would rather do. A lot of naive people on the left think that the working class of America should be glad to give up their dreams to save the working class of Mexico. An income redistribution scheme worth of W himself. Also it is helping the corporations depress wages and benefits here in the USA. Don't play into their game.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 01:48:50 PM EST
    I suggest a name change, suo. Why not, longwinded unnamed one?

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 02:24:31 PM EST
    Paul in La La land.... According to 2000 data, 53 percent of the country’s population is poor (living on less than $2 per day), while close to 24 percent is extremely poor (living on less than $1 per day). Dude...you'll have to come up with a better excuse than that. About 2/3rds of the world is at or below the level you cite. Should we let them all under the fence?

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 02:34:22 PM EST
    Prisilla.. When was the last time you saw your average white person doing this type of work? There are plenty of white people that would do those jobs...the problem is they won't work for penuts. And before we poor mouth Mexico too much... I heard recently that the #1 income (BILLIONS of dollars) of Mexico is money being sent back from the USA. Anybody else hear this? they want to live peaceful lives, work a decent job and provide a modest existence for their children. Then let them enter legally like our ancestors did. IE.... the Mexican government has printed a handbook instructing people on how to sneak into the US and then find a job once here. Wouln't they be better off finding jobs for their own?

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 02:48:09 PM EST
    Paul in LA would do well to remember that immigrants are now crossing private land. The owners of that land have property rights which must be protected. Paul goes on to presume that criminals will use his preferred method of entry. Paul goes on to say, "The vigilantes are there because they are racist Republicans trying to whip up hysteria..." This is a wild accusation no rational person would make. By his own behavior, Paul demonstrates that his prattle is witless, uninformed, and, as far as I am concerned, of absolutely no consequence whatsoever. "the United States is more ours than any one of yours" Priscilla wears her ignorance like a crown. "The repugs don't need the votes anymore, thanks to Diebold." Che shucks and jives to the dogma like a puppet on a string, even spewing up the standard-issue ad hominem to boot.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 02:55:36 PM EST
    "Posted by B.B. : ""According to 2000 data, 53 percent of the country’s population is poor (living on less than $2 per day), while close to 24 percent is extremely poor (living on less than $1 per day)."" "Dude...you'll have to come up with a better excuse than that. About 2/3rds of the world is at or below the level you cite. Should we let them all under the fence?" That's an interesting interpretation of the DOCUMENTED rebuttal to Sarcastic's claim that no one in Mexico starves, and therefore they couldn't be coming here for economic reasons. Most likely, the Mexican Muslim extremists are coming here to rig their roach coaches with plastique, or blow anthrax at your house with their leaf blower, eh? Sarcastic, it's lovely watching you backpedal in the face of the facts, but what you claimed was DISPROVED. As for 'slavering dogs of war'...it is not really amusing that you find the LANGUAGE too colorful, Jim. You would find the blood red screaming horror of tens of thousands of innocent families blown to pieces quite a bit shocking as well. If you weren't a racist, that is.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 03:07:16 PM EST
    Pendejo in LA - nice try. "Malnutrition and food insecurity are huge problems in the world. Latin America suffers only marginally of these problems, in comparison to many other parts of the world. In contrary, it belongs to [the group of countries who are] food exporters, and therefore the food insecurity problem is by far not as relevant an issue for Mexico as it is for many other, even middle-income countries, particularly in Asia."

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 03:15:07 PM EST
    Hard to take the facts in the face of your lie, isn't it, Sarcastic? You come up with a comparative paragraph that has NOTHING to do with the issue, and you think that's better than actual statistics about actual poverty in the migrants? Ha-ha-ha on you. What a fake you are. With fully one-quarter of Mexicans living on $1 a day, you continue to pretend that economics can't be the reason why people would come to a country where even the gardener makes $10 a yard. Why don't you stand at the border and tell the migrants that they are better off -- at least they don't live in Bangladesh or Sudan! Bring a map -- they probably don't know where those ciudades are. Hilarious.

    Re: Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 06, 2005 at 03:46:54 PM EST
    Well, pil, the issue to me is and always was: "individuals who cross the border in search of jobs to feed their families" TChris This implies that, in general, they can't feed their families in their home countries, and can only do so by coming here illegally. This is, in general, completely untrue. Hence my paragraph. btw, I'd need a map to find the "ciudades" of Bangladesh or Sudan as well! You are too funny. Are you really Latino, or just posing as one here for some bizarre reason?! I'll leave you to flail wildly with more nonsense if you like, I'm done.

    Undocumented Workers Help Fund Social Security | 37 comments (37 topical)