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Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Thu May 05, 2005 at 04:19:00 PM EST
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President Bush announced that Brigadier General Janis Karpinski has been demoted one level to colonel for her actions at Abu Ghraib.

Army Reserve Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski became the first high-level U.S. military officer demoted in the scandal after Army leaders deemed her job performance "seriously lacking" and accused her of concealing a past shoplifting arrest.

The Army said in a statement Karpinski had been reduced in rank to colonel, although an investigation by the Army inspector general's officer "determined that no action or lack of action on her part contributed specifically to the abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib."

A shoplifting arrest?

A U.S. government official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said Karpinski was accused of shoplifting a cosmetic item from a shop at a domestic Air Force base while she held the rank of colonel. Karpinski did not report her arrest for this misdemeanor on a later background check, the official said.

Can you spell "scapegoat?"

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    Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted | 22 comments (22 topical)
    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:57:39 PM EST
    from my perspective as a former military member and a female, i thought karpinskis head should have rolled a lot sooner. the only reason she got of as lightly as she did, was that she's female. after many years in the field i have come to two conclusions. 1. woman do not belong in combat units and 2. women do not belong in field commands. i understand that woman are fighting and dying in iraq. they did the same in previous wars. the "front line" is never where it is supposed to be. there is a big difference between fighting because you happen to be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, and being part of a combat unit. as for field command.....it's not that woman can't lead, they can. however, women lead in a different way. they tend to lead by consensus. they want everyone to have a chance to voice opinions, vote, understand where the commander is coming from, etc. that might have it's place in a hospital, for instance, but it has no place in combat. karpinski led her troops from an air conditioned iso. a field leader needs to be out in the dirt with the troops. the troops need to know the rules, and need to know that they have a leader that not only backs them, but hold them to a standard. the leader must not only impart the standard to the troops, but must live it.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#1)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Hmmm...was it at the PX?

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Gee I was worried that they wouldn't be able to find a scape goat.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#3)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    TL: How is she a scapegoat?

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Sadly, the primary people held responsible for Abu Gharib are women: Karpinski (who was stupid enough to administer the prison, under the direction of her superiors, and now takes the fall); and England (the stupid soldier who stood smiling in front of the naked Iraqi prisoners). Of course, it is shameful that they behaved as they did, and saw nothing wrong with de-humanizing and sexualizing their prisoners. But they are not the ones who called the shots in this. Clearly, Karpinski got the message from "up above" (from whom?) that breaking these prisoners in any possible was what was required. And England got the message from her boyfriend and colleagues that she was supposed to enjoy herself by behaving like 'one of the guys.' I believe that Amnesty International is starting to point to U.S. prisons in Iraq and Guantanamo Cuba as examples of inhumane torture. Not to mention the prisoners we have sent overseas explicitly so that they can be tortured in other countries. What is most shameful is that the Adminstration (White House, Chiefs of Staff) have not taken responsibility for these actions.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Karpinski did not report her arrest for this misdemeanor on a later background check, the official said.
    My 24 year old daughter just joined the Navy, and they run through (cant remember the name) this verbal test at a large number of points - Is there anything about anything have to do with the law ever in your life you haven't told us about? They make it clear it will be ugly not if you did it, but if you lie. This is not unusual (maybe an excuse - but not unusual)
    Clearly, Karpinski got the message from "up above" (from whom?)
    Why?This is a staff level officer - they are supposed to act on their own? Nuking a general is hardly scapegoating.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#6)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Wile, I don't think TL said anywhere that she was a scapegoat.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Read the Taguba Report and the question you will be asking is who the hell are John Israel and Steven Stephanowicz and why haven't we heard about them since? excerpt:
    They were beating me on my back and my legs. They were beating and laughing. I couldn't bear it and then I fell from the box against the wall and then on to the ground.” The soldiers then removed his hood. “They were talking and then one of them started to urinate on me. Then they started to drop cold water on me.” [New York Times, 5/14/2004; The Guardian, 5/13/2004] According to Aboud, the orders seem to be coming from above. In fact at one point during his detention he asks a soldier, “Why do you torture us?” The soldier responds, “It's not in our control.”


    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Her name is Janis, but you can call her Patsy.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    Scapegoat as in "fall guy." Karpinski has long claimed that's what she was.
    In an interview with The Associated Press, Karpinski said a "conspiracy" among top U.S. commanders left her to blame for the abuses at Abu Ghraib.
    It's not that she was blameless,
    A report issued by an independent panel of nongovernment experts blamed Karpinski for leadership failures that "helped set the conditions at the prison which led to the abuses."
    But by demoting her, and letting other higher up generals who were more responsible for the policies and oversight go unreprimanded or unpunished, it may be an apt description. The shoplifting incident seems like an unnecessary, irrelevant cheap shot.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    They tried the same thing with Yee "He's a spy! And he had pornography!" At least in that instance it was understandable, because they didn't actually have a case. But here, it's just baffling. If running a prison where this sort of thing happens isn't enough to get you kicked out of the army, what is?

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#11)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    TL: Ah, she said she was a scapegoat. I disagree. It was her actions (or lack of) that allowed the abuses to occur. Her boss' insturctions when she got to the sandboax was probably to run the prison. I am guessing she didn't like running a prison and never showed up at the facility to check on conditions. Some CIA types noticed the lack of leadership and jumped at the opportunity. Thats all she wrote. The covering up of the shoplifting incident leads to her security clearance being pulled. An officer (expecially a flag level) cannot serve without a security clearance.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    Wile E., Where the heck did this come from??
    I am guessing she didn't like running a prison and never showed up at the facility to check on conditions. Some CIA types noticed the lack of leadership and jumped at the opportunity.
    I don't think that was the case at all. As I recall Karpinsky was sidelined by superiors and told she didn't have jurisdiction over interrogations. It seems like she had to make a choice between her career (keeping her mouth shut) or her morals (this is my watch). Unfortunately it turned out to be lose-lose for her. I expect if she had spoken up earlier, the shoplifting thing would have surfaced a year ago. Not everyone's a hero in morally ambiguous times - most aren't.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#13)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    The fact that they mention "shoplifting" in connection with Abu Ghraib is significant. For these people war crimes and shoplifting are comparable.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    If she's being demoted for not reporting the shoplifting, what should the punishment be for the President not admitting he did coke in college? He's on record either denying or refusing to comment... How about Bush's lie that he never decided until the last minute to go to war (until Ooops- a British document shows he had decided years earlier). Funny how they're so strict on "this person" for lying, who just happens to have been in charge of Abu Graib. You people still don't get it...no one will ever take the fall for Abu Graib because the people who should be falling are the ones who were pulling the strings... End of story...

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    No, remember Nuremburg. Following orders is not an excuse. She was in charge of the prison - she is responsible. Others above could have been held responsible for giving an immoral, or illegal, order (if this is true) - but only if she had disobeyed it; and defended herself by this method. If she had a direct order to run the prison this way, she assumed the burden of guilt when she followed it.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    JCH - Your comment is true. However, imagine Gomer Pyle being stationed at Abu Graib. He would be about as culpable as the proverbial kid crying over spilled milk. In England's case, I would argue that you had to know that the legal order was "not legal" in some sense. Based on posts on TL, nevermind "official" sources, the right or wrong of the orders and techniques used is being debated by supposedly smart, educated people. What reasoning should Ms. Hillbilly have used to morally oppose Grainer's orders. We've seen the pics. Many are saying "appropriate force" If England is guilty (she should have known better) then Bush is guilty as the creator of the gray area (or moral vacuum if you prefer) England fell into.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Oops, JCH. Thought you were talking about England, not Karpinski. : )

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Karpinski's punishment was more than fair. A commander (and she was a commander) is responsible for everything her people do or fail to do! Additionally, one of the most important duties of leaders is to supervise. All reports are that she seldom visited the prison. How could she supervise if she wasn't there? I am convinced that this whole scandal would not have happened if she had been doing her job! There is a saying in the military; "soldiers will do what the boss checks!"

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    Karpinski's punishment was more than fair. A commander (and she was a commander) is responsible for everything her people do or fail to do! Additionally, one of the most important duties of leaders is to supervise. All reports are that she seldom visited the prison. How could she supervise if she wasn't there? I am convinced that this whole scandal would not have happened if she had been doing her job! There is a saying in the military; "soldiers will do what the boss checks!"

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#21)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    Oh yeah....?"
    Karpinski's punishment was more than fair. A commander (and she was a commander) is responsible for everything her people do or fail to do! Additionally, one of the most important duties of leaders is to supervise. All reports are that she seldom visited the prison. How could she supervise if she wasn't there? I am convinced that this whole scandal would not have happened if she had been doing her job! There is a saying in the military; "soldiers will do what the boss checks!"
    I'd not heard that saying, but then in medicine it goes beyond "what the boss checks." Using your logic - 'A commander (and she was a commander) is responsible for everything her people do or fail to do!' this applies to those above her as well. What crap. The bigger fish: Sanchez, Miller, Smith et al had a role Karpinski's was or should have been 'hands on'. As one of the attorneys for an enlisted member said, "Captain Robert Shuck, Frederick’s military attorney, closed his defense at the Article 32 hearing last month by saying that the Army was “attempting to have these six soldiers atone for its sins.” Similarly, Gary Myers, Frederick’s civilian attorney, told me that he would argue at the court-martial that culpability in the case extended far beyond his client. “I’m going to drag every involved intelligence officer and civilian contractor I can find into court,” he said. “Do you really believe the Army relieved a general officer because of six soldiers? Not a chance.” Exactly....there's more to this story than just Karpinski.

    Re: Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:49 PM EST
    Karpinski got a slap on wrist (we will see what eventually happens to her- it may not be over). I tend to agree that this indicates she didn't act on her own (my thought isnt proof) I doubt this is over; or that the last General's head has rolled. I think if you believe President Bush had any direct knowledge of karpinski's orders you are probably reaching.

    Gen. Janis Karpinski Demoted | 22 comments (22 topical)