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Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong

The autopsy results on Terri Schiavo are in: No abuse was shown. She was blind. No evidence of an eating disorder was shown. Crooks and Liars has a roundup of blogger reaction.

Think Progress notes Sen. Bill Frist's erroneous diagnosis.

“I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office,” he said in a lengthy speech in which he quoted medical texts and standards. “She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.”

From the article:

Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, fought to keep their daughter alive, saying she could have been rehabilitated. They also claimed she was responsive to them. However, Thogmartin said that at the time of her death, she was blind.

The Schindlers also alleged that their daughter suffered abuse at the hands of husband Michael Schiavo -- a claim he has always denied. Today, Thogmartin said there was no evidence of strangulation at the time of her collapse in 1990, and fractures to her spine were consistent with osteoporosis, common in paralysis patients. He said her bones were "palpably soft."

As for what caused Schiavo to collapse at the age of 26, leading to her vegetative state, Thogmartin said his results did not support the initial diagnosis of an eating disorder.

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    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#1)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    No abuse, did not die of starvation adn irreversible. We are waiting for the retractions.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Blind huh? Kinda makes that balloon following story a tad bit ridiculous.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#3)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    frist should have his medical license revoked and be drummed out of the senate. what a scumbag.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#4)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    JL, In hindsight it does, but she did seem to respond to visual stimuli. Can they explain why she appeared to be tracking it (The balloon) in the video we saw day after day? They don't know what caused the collapse, but have ruled out foul play. That's interesting.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#5)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Terri Schiavo -- human smoke and mirrors meat bag. As everyone with untainted eyes was able to see, this was nothing more than a power grab on the part of the conservative Republicans, and a smokescreen to distract the American people from the real issues which cause the deaths of healthy people around the globe every day, such as the war in Iraq and the genocide in the Sudan. Without such distractions as Terri Schiavo provided, the Republicans are forced to confront real issues. But they rely upon the gullibility and ignorance of their constituents, needing only two repeat falsehoods continually with the help of their media machine to subvert the will of the people and help them build the new American Empire from the ashes of our republic. All hail the new American Empire.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#6)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Can they explain why she appeared to be tracking it (The balloon) in the video we saw day after day?
    The usual non-GOP explanation was that she appeared to be tracking it only because a carefully-selected piece of the video was shown. She moved her eyes without purpose, so given enough time, she would move them along the same path as the balloon by chance. I haven't seen the longer video myself, but that explanation seems at least plausible.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Patrick, All you ever saw was EDITED FOOTAGE of her, representing an infintesimal fraction of her "actions". In short, you only saw the small amount of footage where she did SEEM to follow something, but you didn't see the other 99.9999999% of the time when she couldn't.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#8)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    She only lost visual cortex function in her final days. Every reputable doctor, test, scan said exactly what was found in the autopsy. Hindsight has nothing to do with it. Those were always the facts.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Dr. William Maxfield, a radiologist, examined Schiavo in May 2002. He said he stood to one side in the room while a family member brought in a balloon and bounced it around. "She was actually following the balloon with her eyes, with turning her head to the side," Maxfield said. Her ability to follow the movements exceeded what someone could do by reflex, he said. He spoke about his opinion Friday, after a news conference organized by family members who oppose removing Schiavo's feeding tube. Dr. Hammesfahr emphatically stated that the neck spinal injury this patient incurred was by Strangulation. 2 Neurologists State Terri Schiavo Has Hydrocephalus, a Very Treatable Condition Bill Frist, majority leader of the U.S. Senate and a doctor, reviewed the video images, pronounced her conscious and decried her "starvation." Bill FRist: "Terri Schiavo is right now in a Florida hospice. She is breathing on her own. She's not on a ventilator. She is not a terminal case. She is, as I said, disabled. When her feeding tube is removed, she does not receive food, she starves to death. " In the affidavit filed on behalf of the state, Dr. William Cheshire, a board-certified neurologist at the Mayo Clinic, stated that his review of Schiavo raises "serious doubt" about the current diagnosis. He said she displayed "context-specific" reactions to stimuli, such as upbeat music, colorful objects or the arrival of people into the room. BLIND? HAMMESFAHR: In fact, she follows commands right now. She follows commands right now. HANNITY: Well, I can see that. HAMMESFAHR: She's not in a coma. HANNITY: I'm not a doctor, but when I see this video it's heart- wrenching to me and the fact that this poor women went six days without a feeding tube is frightening to me She is not brain-dead. She's brain impaired. It's not right to starve her to death. That's not right ethically." -- Jesse Jackson March 17th, 2005 - Mr. President, in closing tonight, I want to take a few final moments to speak on an issue that I opened with earlier this morning, and it has to do with the Terri Schiavo case in Florida. I'd like to close this evening speaking more as a physician than as a United States Senator and really speak to my involvement as a physician and -- and as a Senator and as leader in the United States Senate in what has been a fascinating course of events for us over the last 48 hours.......Persistent vegetative state, which is what the court has ruled -- I question it. I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office here in the Capitol. And that footage, to me, depicts something very different than persistent vegetative state.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    He also said she was blind, because the "vision centers of her brain were dead," and that her brain was about half of its expected size when she died 13 days following the feeding tube's removal. Nothing about "the last 2 weeks".

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#11)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Well it's still clear as mud. Seems like educated people on both sides disagree

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#12)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    The autopsy showed that she had all the cognitive capability of a carrot; less, in fact. Frist should hide his face in shame. You can forgive the parents for wanting to believe a fantasy, but not those who would make political hay on their anguish.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    She only lost visual cortex function in her final days. Proof? Is it in the autopsy report? Well it's still clear as mud. Seems like educated people on both sides disagree Yeah. But I'm gonna go with the ones who have the facts on their side. How 'bout you?

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    It is only unclear if you doubt evolution, think the world was formed 6k years ago or think your god will slay the false god of the muslims. As an example; "Dr. William Maxfield, a radiologist, examined Schiavo in May 2002." The guys is a radiologist, not a neuologist. He's also an evangelical christian hired by the family for this purpose, not an independent observer. I would google the rest of those bozos for you by I just don't have time. Believe what you want, but those are facts.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#15)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    No one said anything about "the last 2 weeks." I said "She only lost visual cortex function in her final days." 'Visual cortex' being, you know, the vision center of the brain.

    I have no pony in this race, however this statement is irrelevant: "Thogmartin said that at the time of her death, she was blind." She had no food nor water for how many days before she died? It would seem the relevant question would be: was she blind at the time they pulled her tubes?

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    SU, Sailor, thanks for the clarification.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    The jesus patrol didn't believe the doctors, why would they believe an autopsy? Leave Terri, her husband, and her family alone and out of the news. Let her find the peace and dignity in death that the jesus patrol would not allow her in her last days.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#19)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Just curious, are the right wingers waiting to hear their "talking points" prior to posting? I notice that happens a lot. The delay between what Rush/Hannity/O'Reilly et al say and what is posted is usually consistent....

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#20)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    If you care, there are some observations from a real live pathologist here and here. Based on these, I think it's highly unlikely that blindness was the result of anything that occurred in Schiavo's last 12 days.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#21)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    Jlvngstn Just keep holding on to your grand illusions, and telling yourself you haven't been completely duped by the people you support. If you lie to yourself enough, doubtless you'll begin to believe your own tragically flawed conclusions. Liars don't frighten me, but the people who lie to themselves, such people are to be feared, for they are already in the same state as Terri Schiav. It's just unfortunate you are still walking around pretending to be alive and most frightening of all, voting. Congratulations on helping to destroy our country, you're doing a bang up job.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    Aaron, are you using more than half your brain or is reading just complicated to you?

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    "Hennessy said she was surprised to learn that Terri was blind, considering the video clips in which she appeared to visually track balloons being waved in front of her. "I'm not sure how to interpret that," said Hennessy, who said she had never met Terri herself." Spokesperson for the schindlers.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    The pathologist pointed out by nolo has several salient points. A couple of clarifications: The vis cortex resides within the occipital lobe. You can atrophy (lose) a lot of lobe before you get to the vis cortex or the lateral geniculate network. It is only then that 'brain' vision is lost. Many eye mechanisms are based on immediate neuro/chemical feedback of the receptor cells and especially the common neurons of receptors in the peripheral field; this have nothing to do with brain function or lack thereof. Many others visual attributes are based on involuntary brain functions, (see heart rate, respiration, blinking), and have no relation to cognitive functions. I can extract retinal cells put them in a nutrient gel, connect them to fine wire electrodes and have them fire as a light stim passes over them. If you hook up a muscle to these elctrodes they will contract or 'track' in the direction the stimulus is moved. (see galvanic response.) I don't think this movement means they love their parents.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    Sailor, excellent explanation thanks.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    If you wave a balloon in front of a veg like that for hours on end, eventually you will see a random tracking just by sheer happenstance. Wake up people. She was a veg. And the Nancy Grace wannabees here should be appalled at the attacks by religious fanatics on her husband. No proof, but that's irrelevant.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Che, I generally agree with your posts, but please check out my above post for scientific facts. It does no more service to the discussion to claim random movements than it does to claim awareness. BTW, her brain weighed about 615 grams at autopsy. End stage Alzheimer's are 800+, nominal adult human brain is 1,400+.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#28)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, you're welcome. It's my field so the facts are easy to come by.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Sailor, That's crazy. Even if her visual cortex could register an image, that doesn't consider the FACT that multiple EEG's, PET, CAT and MRI scans concluded many times that she had NO COGNITIVE FUNCTION. If you really believe that she could improve or recover with the cortex the size of a dried out apple core, then I cannot respect your medical opinion. I guess we agree to disagree. But there are still fanatical as****es who are on the TV as we speak implying that her husband strangled her into a hypokalemic arrest. that's just totally irresponsible "journalism". These people are f***ing nuts and have no business putting those lies out on the air. They want to drag her out again and fling her rotting corpse around in our faces to promote their (and maybe your) agenda.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    It is so sad, correction, I'm so sad, that her parents are still contesting the autopsy findings. I (semi) understand what they are going thru, but the scumbag christofascists & politicians that gave them such false hope are mainly to blame. At some point a lot of us will have to make the decision to let a parent or child go. I'm not saying 'trust your doctor', I'm saying get a second, and maybe 3rd opinion, and then do the right thing. After having read the Schiavo autopsy, and I'm not qualified to have an opinion on large parts of it, the sheer loss of brain tissue in the occipital and parietal lobes is dramatic. There was no memory left, there was no 'person' left. I wish they could be thankful that the child they knew was not present for all of the legal wrangling, tubes in and out, and sheer politicizing of her plight. All that said, there is nothing sadder than losing a child.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#31)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Che, please read my posts again.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#32)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Sailor, I think we do see eye to eye (so to speak). Sorry if I misinterpreted your comments.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    "Bob and Mary Schindler (search) disputed the results, insisting their daughter interacted with them and tried to speak. Their attorney said the family plans to discuss the autopsy with other medical experts and may take some unspecified legal action." Unspecified legal action.......Looking to profit perhaps?

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#34)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:06 PM EST
    Jlvingston, Randall Terry has convinced them (or was it the big G himself?) that Michael murdered her and they are just stipid enoughto believe him over the first responders.

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#36)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:07 PM EST
    Cannot admit they were wrong. Still trying to villify her ex-husband. Waiting for the movie rights I am sure. I think all along they have been motivated by profit and time will tell who inks the movie deal, him or them. Anyone care to take a $50 donation to TL bet on who looks to profit?

    Re: Schiavo Autopsy: Initial Diagnosis Wrong (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    I will give 10 to 1 odds...