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Catfight Over Susan Estrich

Crooks and Liars reports that a few liberal bloggers are screaming about Susan Estrich's column defending her position as a liberal commentator for Fox News. I'm firmly with Susan on this one.

I say whatever I want....I think it's particularly important to have a dialogue with people who aren't already members of the same choir - that's the way we will ultimately have to win elections.

I've done legal commenting on Fox News for eight years, mostly from Denver but many times at their New York studio. I've never been paid a dime by them, although I've asked a few times. I can underscore they never, ever tell you what to say and you can say whatever you want. Their producers are top notch. They are appreciative, professional and a pleasure to interact with. I may not share the views of their anchors, but on a personal level, I like every one of them.

I've never met Roger Ailes, so I don't have anything to say there, but I think the attacks on Susan are catty and misinformed. Susan is a law professor and expert on politics and feminist issues. I don't always agree with her either - I'm far to the left of her - but the attacks on her embarrass me. Liberals need to stop eating their own.

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    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#1)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    I respect Estrich and all, just like I do Beckell but not colmes who's a worm. But the problem is, Estrich doesn't help her cause one whit by appearing on FOX. The few "liberal" commentators who appear on there are just foils, fodder. A thorough DEM blackout is what's needed.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#2)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    The Daily Howler's Bob Somerby has dissected Estrich's work for Fox on many occasions. Let's just say he's not a fan. Here's an example.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#3)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    And another thing. After reading Estrich's piece, I once again am forced to wonder who are these "press corps" people who are mad at Cavuto for lobbing softballs at Dubya? Are these people on crack? What did they expect? It's Cavuto, it's FOX, it ought to have been a given. Dean's refusal to go on FOX and his reasons for it are also in the Estrich link. Once again, thank you Howard, for speaking self-evident truths that so many with a megaphone refuse to acknowledge.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#4)
    by fafnir on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    The FOX producers may be "nice guys and gals," but when anyone to the Left of Zig-Zag Zell or Loserman is a guest on a show, they often don't get the courtesy to complete a dissenting comment without a right-wing FOX host putting his or her foot into the "Lefty's" mouth. A pro-Bush guest, on the other hand, is encouraged to embelish and extend his or her remarks, taking up as much time as desired. It's not worth going on FOX unless Lefties demand equal respect and time constraints. In my opinion, just because the FOX producers are "nice" doesn't mean Lefties will be given a fair, even-handed airing. The producers should not receive any credit for allowing Lefties to say whatever they want without ensuring they're given the time to say it.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    I’m sure many of the vilest fascists had good manners, especially those in public situations. The nice guys and good manners defense doesn’t go far with me. Neither does the importance of having a dialog with those not in the same choir defense. The time has long past for the latter. There is no real dialog on hate TV. There are those that wield the clubs and those that are stooges. Some stooges are necessary to give at least an illusion of credible discourse to help keep the rank and file in line and ready to swallow the hate message hook line and sinker. I’m sorry to say (sorry, because I am a fan of Talk Left) that when it comes to appearing on Fox, you’re a stooge and an easy mark at that. A little politeness, some donuts and coffee and some ego inflating moments on TV may be all it takes. The only way, I think, to deal with Fox and Limbaugh and the rest is to shun them. I’m with Dean on this one. You might wish to rethink your relationship with Fox, hard as it must be to give up a seat at the pundit table, no matter how dirty it is it’s still TV.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    I’m sure many of the vilest fascists had good manners, especially those in public situations. The nice guys and good manners defense doesn’t go far with me. Neither does the importance of having a dialog with those not in the same choir defense. The time has long past for the latter. There is no real dialog on hate TV. There are those that wield the clubs and those that are stooges. Some stooges are necessary to give at least an illusion of credible discourse to help keep the rank and file in line and ready to swallow the hate message hook line and sinker. I’m sorry to say (sorry, because I am a fan of Talk Left) that when it comes to appearing on Fox, you’re a stooge and an easy mark at that. A little politeness, some donuts and coffee and some ego inflating moments on TV may be all it takes. The only way, I think, to deal with Fox and Limbaugh and the rest is to shun them. I’m with Dean on this one. You might wish to rethink your relationship with Fox, hard as it must be to give up a seat at the pundit table, no matter how dirty it is it’s still TV.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#7)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    I suspect emotions run very high on the left over Faux Notnews. A network that is a propoganda machine and promotes the likes of the Swiftie liars, Ann Coulter and any other right wing radical wingnut they can dig up. To see a person of Liberal Persuasion in polite, friendly interaction with them when we know any normal Liberal would be constantly forced to go Postal over what is heaped on them and their comrads offends very deeply and I include myself in those emotions. It's kind of like watching her sitting around with Osama and his taliban cohorts Chuckling about how Americans deserve to die a horible death!

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#8)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:24 PM EST
    Listenng to liberals whine about the "media" is always amusing. I thought you guys were for freedom of speech etc... It's not enough that you have ABC, CBS, ABC, CNN, PBS and all major print leaning your direction. No, one cable channel that you don't have to watch is enough to send you liberals into a tailspin mearley because if it's existence. Then a network you don't watch (or do you?) has the nerve to put a person expressing your general point of view on and you label that person a traitor or a right wing whipping post. Will the real liberals please stand up?

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#9)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:24 PM EST
    I'm confused, slado. Which liberals proposed outlawing Fox? Freedom of speech includes both the right to lie and to expose lying.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:24 PM EST
    slado, you're funny. Let me run it by you. You need to pay attention pal, the examples you cite are at best castrated media, i.e., no use to anyone, or fox wannabee's (cnn). And the traitor talk is straignt from the rnc and fine people like bill o lielly, who wants Air America incarcerated for some reason. And I don't watch faux, because it's not news, it's pure propaganda.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:24 PM EST
    we need people like Howard Dean to tell Fox to shove it, patriotism does not belong in journalism. but, we also need people like Jeralyn speaking to the audience and attempting to influence them with her point of view. I doubt many TL readers regularly watch fauxnews for a source of info, but there are plenty who utilize it daily. if Jeralyn is able to persuade just a few viewers then its worth it.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#12)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:24 PM EST
    It's just so beautiful and must be posted. From Estrich's little ooze-piece comes this paragraph: "Asked to respond to Vice President Cheney's comments about him to Fox's Sean Hannity, Dean said: "My view is that Fox News is a propaganda outlet for the Republican Party, and I don't comment on Fox News." " Tampa Student, I know you're out there somewhere. You may be right that Dean is a tool being used to rally up the cynics, that he doesn't mean what he says. We've been screwed before--look at McGovern! But still, that quote. Poignant. Tell me the man aint a straight shooter.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    Sorry TL, you're not going to change my mind on this one. By appearing on Fox, you lend credibility to their efforts - credibility they most certainly do not deserve. I've seen you there a few times -- without exception you were given unequal time and were talked over a large percentage of your appearance. Similar to everything else I've seen on their propaganda network, the discussions are always framed into a narrow context offering no unbiased perspective of anything being discussed. Fox is the most visible arm of Murdoch's empire that now spans from the creation of biased ideas, to the end of the copper wire in your bedroom (DirectTV), and broadcast to a growing percentage of automobiles in North America/Europe (XM Radio). You cannot pay your entertainment bill without a percentage of it funding him and his cohorts efforts - even if you never watch it/listen.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    Tell me the man aint a straight shooter.
    I voted for him in the primary - long after the nomination was going to Kerry. I didn't believe him any more then than I do now. At that level, the spectrum of message is carefully formulated, tested, then shrink-wrapped, marketed, and sold. Liberal ideals have been marginalized by the party. In America, most people buy off the rack instead of buying anything tailored - it requires far too much concern, time, and effort. The message must always be "one size fits all". Which is why I'm in the market for alternatives these days...

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    I’m sure many of the vilest fascists had good manners, especially those in public situations. The nice guys and good manners defense doesn’t go far with me. Neither does the importance of having a dialog with those not in the same choir defense. The time has long past for the latter. There is no real dialog on hate TV. There are those that wield the clubs and those that are stooges. Some stooges are necessary to give at least an illusion of credible discourse to help keep the rank and file in line and ready to swallow the hate message hook line and sinker. I’m sorry to say (sorry, because I am a fan of Talk Left) [insult deleted.] A little politeness, some donuts and coffee and some ego inflating moments on TV may be all it takes. The only way, I think, to deal with Fox and Limbaugh and the rest is to shun them. I’m with Dean on this one. You might wish to rethink your relationship with Fox, hard as it must be to give up a seat at the pundit table, no matter how dirty it is it’s still TV.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    glanton comments: But still, that quote. Poignant. Tell me the man aint a straight shooter. glanton, perhaps you were being sarcastic, in which case I apologize. But, do you realize that in one sentence, Dean commented on Fox and then claimed he doesn’t do that? I find that strange for a straight shooter.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    Thank you HOWARD!!!

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#18)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    Let me see if I'm getting this. The majority here believes 1) Fox news is propoganda for the right. 2) The right watches Fox news. 3) The left's message is correct. 4) The left is better for the country. 5) The message shouldn't be spread on Fox News. How do you propose to spread the message? If you aren't going to take your message to the opposition, how do you expect to persuade them? Logic like that gives credence to the accusation (which I do not make) that most here want to be in an echo chamber. Is that what is wanted here? --BigTex

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#19)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    soldier, He doesn't go on the network and talk to their leeches. Maybe someone can link an appearance or two, but they won't find much. I've never seen him on there anyways, and I watch the network semi-regularly, so as to better know my enemy. Dean has said things about FOX, true things, but doesn't go on there. And besides, even taken literally, the semantic irony to which you point doesn't bother me in the slightest. Overall, the man has set a fine example for how to be a nationally visible political figure without going on FOX. Would that all other Democrats everywhere would follow. BTW: I'm not a huge Hillary Clinton fan, but I greatly admire her seeming refusal to descend into that discursive cesspool as well.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    Soldier, But, do you realize that in one sentence, Dean commented on Fox and then claimed he doesn’t do that? No he didn't. He stated a fact (to him) and elucidated his response to the invitation. You're trying too hard.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    Posted by Quaker: "Freedom of speech includes both the right to lie and to expose lying." No, that misses the point. Freedom of speech, fine, but broadcast television bandwidth is at the public will. Murdoch should lose his Fox News channels licence, because he has violated the public trust. Working for FOX in times like these is going to vulnerable to criticism for complicity in that violation of the public's right to be informed on its airwaves, and not lied to by supposed news agencies. What's good for Goose Dan Rather is good for the Australian Gander as well. I think Susan Estrich is deeply confused, as are most of the news anchors and personalities in corporate television. Surviving with her priorities intact, JM.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    How do you propose to spread the message? If you aren't going to take your message to the opposition, how do you expect to persuade them? There is only one message on Fox news and any dissenting view is lost or degraded. No one is reached. No genuine dialog takes place. It is a propaganda machine, theater in which the liberal guests become supporting props. There are other, less singular places where the liberal message can be served to the oposition.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#23)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    PIL writes:
    No, that misses the point. Freedom of speech, fine, but broadcast television bandwidth is at the public will. Murdoch should lose his Fox News channels licence, because he has violated the public trust.
    Actually, FNC is not broadcast television. It is cable TV, which is not broadcast, but transmitted over privately owned cable networks, which may be located on city right of ways, for which the cable operators pay a fee to use. Before you institute censorship you should at least know what you are talking about.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    Susan Estrich from her defense of Arnold Schwarzenegger (whose ratings are now at an all time low) to her ridiculous diet book is nothing but a media prostitute. She knows which side her paycheck is written on and never strays too far and often is out front for the right. Since she is unaffected by most of the policies she pretends to discuss the poor journalistic practices and the disgusting people she defends are just so much cocktail party chatter and a few extra income bucks to her. She is nothing more than Alan Combs in a dress

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#25)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    "No, that misses the point. Freedom of speech, fine, but broadcast television bandwidth is at the public will. Murdoch should lose his Fox News channels licence, because he has violated the public trust."
    Uh, Paul? Fox is a cable channel. No public bandwidth. Call 'em liars all you want, but they're not using public airwaves.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#26)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    She is nothing more than Alan Combs in a dress Now that's a downright frightening visual.

    Re: Catfight Over Susan Estrich (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Duh, FNC is not broadcast. But the parent company operates a great number of broadcast stations, and since the parent company is violating the public trust THERE AS WELL, Murdoch isn't home free with his cable/sat LIARS ON FIRE channel. For that matter, there is no inherent reason why CBS, NBC, or ABC should have easy reapprovals on their local licences. In case you didn't know, Jim, you lot have PISSED OFF nearly 100 million Americans. You can expect to have lots of problems in the future, and just remember where your problems came from when they come. From turning your party over to traitors and con artists for WAR.