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G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational

Update: The UK IndyMedia has good coverage.

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After a peaceful demonstration Sunday in Edinburgh, Scotland, attended by 225,000 people supporting the "Make Poverty History" movement which is allied with the Live 8 concerts, the anti-capitalist anarchists showed up and the mood drastically changed. Today ended with 30 injured and 90 arrested. Don't miss this photo, it's the funniest.

Here's an account of how things turned once the anarchists arrived to protest:

It was at about 1:35pm that the tone of the day changed for the worse. In Charlotte Square, the cry went up from a squad of English police officers: "Batons up. Prepare to charge." The police then broke into a short jog before shouting in unison: "CHARGE!"

....A 24-year-old who was caught up in the confusion said: "I've been here since one o'clock and it's been absolutely terrifying. I think the police have been very heavy-handed by instigating most of it, because they're moving into the crowds, charging, hitting people on the heads with batons and their plastic shields. This has caused mayhem and caused the crowds to disrupt into angry scenes. I saw a police van drive into two protesters which knocked them to the ground. "Protesters were ripping benches off the ground and throwing them and using them as barricades against the police charges. I've been forced to hide in a shop doorway behind wooden boarding in to escape the chaos."

Things progressed from there:

Later, at about 6:20pm, more than 200 protesters clashed with police in Rose Street. Police in riot gear were hit by a hail of missiles, including bread pallets, while some protesters pulled trolleys from a nearby lane and pushed them towards officers.

Several hundred onlookers gathered at the junction with South St David Street while chants of "scum, scum, scum" were hurled at the police. Later, some of the crowd began hurling stones and cobbles at the advancing police line. Many of the crowd appeared to have been drinking and a large number were locals.

The main security focus will now switch to Gleneagles where the G-8 summit is taking place.

Protesters will be allowed to march near the Gleneagles Hotel, the venue for the summit, which has been ringed by an 8km security fence.

The Rebel Clown Army has been attempting to defuse things, but people and police don't know what to make of them:

Earlier in the day, and on a lighter note, the Rebel Clown Army had been detained while putting on their make-up and red noses. Police found an artillery of weapons including a feather duster, water pistols and soapy bubbles. About 30 of the clowns - who wore an unusual combination of army combats, neon pink wigs, colanders on their heads and other fluffy accessories - were surrounded by police in Teviot Place. Some clowns ran away giggling but others were forced to wait while they were searched by police.

All the clowns insisted on speaking in high-pitched voices, dancing around and making jokes, and claimed they even raised a few smiles among the police who detained them. All were released without charge and although they were late for an appointment at a peaceful protest, it did not dampen their spirits since the Clown Army had a fairly relaxed attitude to punctuality.

Sir Ender-you-must-be-joking, a rebel clown with military jacket and squashy red nose, said about 100 police were used to surround them. He said the Clown Army was there to make fun, not to cause trouble, and would even try to defuse the situation if it did turn nasty.

He said: "The police and security guards do not know whether to watch the entertainment or arrest us. The confusing thing is we don't know what we're doing, so they don't know. It's a very fluid operation."

Stay tuned....

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    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Why would you link to a corporate news site, one of which can't even tell a protest tactic (Black Bloc's) from actual groups (and who the hell are the Wombley's? Do they mean Wobblies?). the UK Indymedia has tons of non-corporate reports, video, photo, and audio from the streets themselves, as well as coverage you don't see on corporate news sites, such as the arrest and harassment of medics on the streets. Of course, inevitably, people will rant that this "crazy anarchists" aren't doing a damned good thing, ignoring the fact that anarchists, in America particuarly, make up a solid backbone of hardcore activists in most mainstream issues, from gay rights, to globalization, to a number of other issues. From community gardens, to radical libraries, to feeding the homeless through Food Not Bombs, anarchists are putting into practice what electoral liberals want the state to do for them. Some of us don't have time to wait another 4 years.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Thanks for the UK Indymedia tip. I had checked the US and Scotland Indymedia sites and found mostly notices of protests, not news coverage or photos. I'm updating the post to include the link.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    I can't ever be mad at protesters, I don't care how much property they destroy. Anyone who has the guts to openly question authority gets my respect. Go stick that in your rightwing craw.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#4)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    TalkLeft praising the pro-imperialist "Live 8" fraud and denouncing "anti-capitalist" protestors who are attacked by the police. That fits well.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#5)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Fenria, Right on! I protest.... ... the MSM pretending that socialism, in all its forms, both soft & hard, ever produced anything but economic misery, suffering and devastation ... the whitewashing from history of the mass murders of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Saddam and other socialists, simply for the sake of (false) intellectual pride ... the ongoing deaths from environmentalism. How many more must die from malaria - as one example and only one! - before pride is satisfied? ... the hypocrisy of International Answer and other puppetmasters of the easily-led Thanks, Fenria, for your support. And, yes, I am oh-so serious about each of the above.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Actually funny thing about that res...anarchists aren't in any of the things you describe, unless of course you have some book of political philosophy that I've never seen. Oh and by the way, news organizations that are owned by large multinationals in a capitalist society, cannot in anyway be accused of socialism (do you even know what socialism is? are you aware that America, in no time in its history, has ever approached socialism?). Not, of course, that I like the MSM (they are corporate idiots as well). Socialists/communists were responsible for the imprisonment, slaughter, and selling out of anarchists during the Spanish Civil War, the Bolsheveiks enslaved anarchists after driving Makhno and his libertarians (the REAL ones) of the Ukraine after the Russian Revolution. In fact, any anarchist theorist would disagree with socialism on the basis of the existence of the state, as all anarchists reject the totality of the system (government and economics), and not merely advocating a "changing of the guard". Also, despite Hitler's vague use of the term socialism, he was a corpratist facist, like Mussolini and Franco. He believed in the nationalization of industry not for the benefit or the egalitarian use of all, but for protection ot the state apparatus and to keep it under control. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, were of course, various breeds of Marxist. Saddam was just a crooked war lord (I would hesitate to say he had any sort of real agenda outside of secular nationalism, and a tendency to suck the teat of whomever would hand him money..most notably the US during the Iran/Iraq war...hmmm). And how many people will die from the world order today, oh wise res? Last time I checked, 900 million people were starving or were suffering from malnutrition, according to those French loving commies at the UN's World Food Programme. Moreover, the death of thousands from easily preventable diseases, is not due to the banning of DDT (the equivalent of dropping Agent Orange to get rid of weed problems), but due to a tremendously messed up aid development program, funded and booted around by the countries with the biggest stake in the World Bank/IMF system, and whose financial institutions make large loans to. It's also due to a colonial legacy of hundreds of years inherited from western european countries. International Answer is a crypto-Leninist cult that has absolutely nothing to do with the anarchist movement, and in fact, insprires a certain amount of hatred and conflict with (as anarchists have with all Marxists/Liberals). Simply put, res, you picked the wrong person to argue with when you tangle with an anarchist. Your commie remarks slide off like water on a baby's behind, and your other vague ramblings implode under the scrutiny of the real reason why these places are messed up in the first place. ::Buzz:: Try again!

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Not that anyone takes you seriously around here ras...but calling Hitler a socialist is beyond the pale of even your most laughably distorted historical rants. If you are trying for parody you're overreaching...again.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#8)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    This is a bit off-topic. Those who are interested in drawing lessons from the Spanish Civil War want to read Revolution and Counter Revolution in Spain by Felix Morrow which was published in 1938. I especially suggest that you read the section "CNT-FAI: The National Confederation of Labour and the Anarchist Iberian Federation" in the chapter The Politics of the Spanish Working Class.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    ras-since others have already outed your inability to grasp history on a factual level (masterfully, I would add), let me bring you up to date on the here and now.
    the ongoing deaths from environmentalism. How many more must die from malaria...before pride is satisfied?
    I am always amazed at the ignorance that surrounds this topic. The argument that we must use environmentally destructive agents, such as DDT, is nothing more than "Bush-science" propaganda. Try reading something other than the "news-ribbon" on Fox (we report-we decide) News.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Ernesto, this may come as a surprise to you, but 'Nazi' is short for 'Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei' , which literally translates as 'National Socialist German Workers Party' . Had you asked a German Nazi in 1933 what his political affiliation was, he would have said "socialist". After WWII, this uncomfortable fact was swept under the rug by those who wanted to defend left-wing policies by trying to identify Hitler's party with fascism on the basis that Hitler aided Franco's Spanish fascist party during the Spanish Civil War. But ras is technically correct on this point at least: the Nazis were Socialists. Historical facts can be awkward things sometimes, n'est pas?

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#11)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    cheetah - Go down to the Off Topic thread. I have a question about DDT...

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#12)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Historical facts can be awkward things sometimes, n'est pas? Depends upon the context of course. I don't know that I agree with this statement either:
    "Had you asked a German Nazi in 1933 what his political affiliation was, he would have said "socialist".
    The more socialist of the political parties was the 'Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands' (SPD) or the - Social Democratic Party. It's moved considerably from its Marxist-based tenets & the role of class structure.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    Regardless of what Hitler and the Brownshirts called themselves, they were still corpratist facists in the same way Mussolini and Franco were. This of course reveals the fact that there really is no difference between opposite sides of the political spectrum, except what vaguely the "goals" are (a socialist government is "for equality"; a facist one is for a romantic, vague concept of a fatherland). This is not to be taken as red baiting, but every traditional office holding, power weilding political philsophy, in the end, is basically the same.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#15)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    This is not to be taken as red baiting, but every traditional office holding, power weilding political philsophy, in the end, is basically the same.
    I would more agree than disagree with your statement with a qualifier, as far as we know within the confines of patriarchy. I don't know the logic behind the 'violent' protestations of those so inclined at the G8 right now. I admire those who stand up for what they believe regardless of the odds of "success." I don't know how much impact anyone has on those 8 white guys in some room, far removed from everything - shuttered in, if you will.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    I read the Scotsman article, and didn't find any reference to anarchists causing major problems by showing up. What I read was that there was a nonviolent protest of 250,000 people, during which the cops were peaceful. Subsequently, there was a more chaotic protest group, who did things like kissing the plastic shields of police. WOW! That must be stopped right now. And some businessmen, even a pregnant woman, were inconvenienced by the protest! THEY WERE INCONVENIENCED BY HOLDING THE G8 IN EDINBURGH. NO evidence given in that article of 'hardened anarchists.' 'Hardened anarchists' would have come with explosives and enough hardware to wipeout the police force. Thirty injured and ninety arrested is a TINY result of police-protester scuffles. The idea that Hitler was a socialist is hilarious. Apparently, when Hitler promised world peace, he was sincere! The name of the Nazi party was intended to DELUDE. Since ras and others [insult deleted] are deluded by Bush's promises, it is not surprising that they still take Hitler at his words.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    I would disagree Kitt, insomuch as feminism is itself a very reactionary and conservative movement (it does not question the powers that be, merely wants to have women on top). The fundamental power dynamics are still left in place in a top down world, regardless of whether its a man or a woman on top. People wonder why we've seen the so called Bush women parading around with reactionary politics, yet being female, and the reason is, is thats the end conclusion of feminism. Because one you get to the top, any real allegiance to anything goes out the window, in making sure your power is maintained. A woman is just as susceptible as a man.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    Ernesto, this may come as a surprise to you, but 'Nazi' is short for 'Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei' , which literally translates as 'National Socialist German Workers Party'.
    No surprise as I was fully aware of the misnomer. Also no surprise that you would try to link the Nazis to contemporary and modern day socialists that are a lot further from the Nazis on the political spectrum than you are.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#19)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    "I would disagree Kitt, insomuch as feminism is itself a very reactionary and conservative movement (it does not question the powers that be, merely wants to have women on top)."
    I said PATRIARCHY. Nowhere did I mention feminism. And - feminism is not reactionary; it certainly requires that women be treated equitibly. Straight from the dictionary - "Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." How is that reactionary? As for conservative - in what way? As far as I'm concerned, neither word fits. Anyway, WHO in their right mind would consider the Bush women feminists?! Besides we should probably go to an Open Thread rather than continue here.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    the MSM pretending that socialism, in all its forms, both soft & hard, ever produced anything but economic misery, suffering and devastation
    Yeah, because life in Canada and the Netherlands really sucks, right? I mean, all those poor little Swedish babies, just starving to death on national t.v. everyday......tragic, really.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#21)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM EST
    Fenria, Interesting that you pick "mixed" examples. Huzzaba we instead try looking at "pure" socialism where it's been tried vs ... what? all the "pure" socialists were already killed by other socialists? You don't say. As for Canada, I know my country like the back of my hand. I know the soup kitchens and the boardrooms alike. West cost. East Coast. In between. You sure you wanna argue the point? Capitalism and classical liberalism built this country. Don't be willfully dense. And, btw, we know it up here. More than you realize.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#22)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:53 PM EST
    I really am put off, and frankly a bit disgusted at the out-and-out hostility toward markets and capitalism I’m reading here. Mutually beneficial trade, i.e. free market capitalism, is uniquely responsible for the acceleration in living standard of all folks, worldwide. We all enjoy the use of life improving technology, which through the mechanisms of the market have been transformed from luxury to commonplace. I challenge anyone to find a single example where charity and goodwill have accomplished the kind of living standard improvements that simple self interested trade have. The developing world has some monumental challenges; ignorance, abysmal government, few guarantees of individual rights, and on. Without the guarantee of property rights and fulfillment of contractual obligation no one will invest in these developing markets.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:54 PM EST
    pigwiggle, I have a challenge for you. Take a trip down into Central and South America, and not for a week at the posh resorts. Spend some time in the countryside, where the pushers of the so-called "free market, free trade" agenda focus their real efforts. Talk to people who have been harmed by these policies you revere so highly. You know, try to sell your ideas to them. If you truly have a heart, and can feel sympathy for suffering people, you will come home with a different view.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:54 PM EST
    "Mutually beneficial trade" Riiiight. Which is why in Bolivia the multinationals take 90% of the profit from the oil and gas, the country gets 10%, and what filters down to the populace? Absolutely nothing, say it again. And what part of G8 "free market capitalism" was forcing Bolivia to privatize their water supply in order to get debt relief so they could invest in tapping those free markets you talk about? Ask the indios who can't get any water. And what part of 'life improving technology' was spraying the food crops of the indios in a misguided attempt to eliminate coca? Or the 'mechanisms of the market' that was Occidental Petroleum driving the indios off their land so they could drill in Amazonia, after clearcutting as much for roads and facilities as they deemed? What part of 'self-interested trade' was the CIA-aided killing the democratically-elected president of Chile on 11 Sep 73 because he had nationalized the copper mines? What part of 'fulfillment of contractual obligation' was removing the democratically-elected president of Haiti, and shipping him off under mercenary guard to forced exile in an African dictatorship, in total violation of Pan-American treaties? It goes on. What is the 'free market capitalist' content of trying to remove the president of Venezuela by coup, or by assassination, for redistribution of wealth via land reform? What part of 'free market reforms' is Coca-Cola's funding of rightwing thugs to kill union organizers in Colombia? And on and on. Just like with the genocide in Iraq, it is all so nice to sit back in a/c comfort in the States and pontificate about how righteous your predation on human life is -- how WONDERFUL demockery is, how GREAT it will be once all the dirty brown people are robbed, killed, tortured, and DISPOSSESSED.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Cheetah- “I have a challenge for you. Take a trip down into Central and South America, and not for a week at the posh resorts.” A couple of years ago I was in the Yucatan and witnessed first hand the crushing poverty. While I was there I spent money that the locals were more than happy to take in exchange for the junk they were pedaling or a guided tour of the local fauna. My wife spent a couple of months in Central America learning Spanish. She spent less than a thousand dollars (mostly the roundtrip fare) and the folks there were more than happy to put her up and teach her the language. I don’t see any reason to feel poorly about either of these exchanges. In no way were these folks forced or otherwise coerced into taking less than they were willing for what they gave in return. “Talk to people who have been harmed by these policies you revere so highly.” I don’t know what policies you are speaking of; I only mentioned free trade, i.e. two informed consenting parties exchanging goods or cervices. The only harmful economic policies I see propagated in developing nations are collective bargaining and protectionism. I don’t ascribe to the idea of zero sum gain economics, but in the end someone always picks up the tab. It is absolute hypocrisy to simultaneously advocate protecting jobs while bemoaning poverty in the developing world. “If you truly have a heart, and can feel sympathy for suffering people, you will come home with a different view.” Of course I have empathy for the folks with less than me, as I’m sure they have empathy for those with less than them. I remain unconvinced that anyone’s life will be made worse by having the opportunity to trade or not as they wish. Especially given the current state of technology allowing any producer worldwide to sell directly to the end consumer (for christ’s sake, if some jerk in Nigeria can commit fraud in the US they certainly could sell me something). Let say tomorrow I were to get together with some Columbian farmer to arrange the direct sale of coffee or cocaine you would find many folks standing in my way and not one for the sake of a healthy competitive market. PinLA- Mutually beneficial trade requires two informed consenting parties. The litany of wrongs you cite have absolutely no connection with capitalism. Slavery and theft are not capitalism, drug war acrobatics are not capitalism, quid pro quo aid is not capitalism, puppet governments are not capitalism. In fact all of these things are antithetical to healthy and competitive markets.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    pigwiggle, perhaps you misunderstood my challenge. Go back, and this time speak with the people who have been harmed by global corporatism. Either you talked with the wrong people, or you just weren't listening.

    "Slavery and theft are not capitalism."??? Global corporatism, which is capitalism cubed, is killing people. Stealing their land, with no payback. Poisoning their water. Privatizing the Indigenous farmers right off their lands, so they are not able to even grow food for their families. And if they could, much of that land isn't fit for farming any longer, due to the environmental destruction these wonderful private companies have wrought. And then there is the problem with getting paid, if these people end up being forced to work for these wonderful companies. Being forced to pay for their own water!

    I don't know where you went, but maybe you should try a different route. You know, off the beaten path.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Two informed, consenting parties? Tell that to the people who are the losers in that deal. No one asked them to consent to anything!

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#28)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Cheetah- It’s clear you didn’t read my post or otherwise would rather read into my post. Respond to the content and save the strawman.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    pigwiggle, I read your comment twice. I guess we just disagree.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Pig: "The litany of wrongs you cite have absolutely no connection with capitalism." I see. So that makes your argument totally untrue in the real world. Capitalism brings you cheap clothes from Asian slave labor, cheap oil from countries we invade or threaten to invade, and allows those capitalist churches, called 'corporations,' to force countries to privatize oil, gas, water, and the seedstock of their crops. "In fact all of these things are antithetical to healthy and competitive markets." GREAT. So I take it you will be heading over to Scotland to join the protests against the G8 who constantly betray 'capitalism' by practicing it -- in the ruthless, unregulated, militarized, global dominance manner that they put into place through force and thuggery. You pretend that the history is moot, because your intent is good enough. South Americans know that the intent of the multinationals is to rape the countries for grossly disproportionate profits -- and ALWAYS has been. So they would prefer various forms of socialism, to this 'capitalism' that has floated so many benefits in the skies above the graves of its victims. You ought to listen to RFK Jr.s defense of capitalism. I agree with him, and might agree with your idea of capitalism, if it ever were to appear. Without extensive regulation and enforced fairness; without a true recognition that resources belong to the PEOPLE of the countries, not their corrupt rulers (often installed or removed by the G8). In fact, in historical and present fact, capitalism as it is practiced is rape. The suits at the G8 know it, and it makes them chuckle. Have you seen any of the $300 Billion spent so far to privatize (former) Iraq's oil? You never will. That's money for the FEW.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Sorry. "without a true recognition that resources belong to the PEOPLE of the countries, not their corrupt rulers (often installed or removed by the G8), there can be no sufficient benefit from that wealth, and the people, in their millions, starve, while the rich toast themselves for the Grand Superiority of successful thieves.

    Re: G-8 Protests Turn Confrontational (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Posted by ras
    Interesting that you pick "mixed" examples.
    Well, yeah, duh..thats because I'm pro hybrid systems. I dunno where you got it in your mind that I'm some sort of red socialist, honey, I'm 50% Libertarian, 50% green, independent all the way. You must just be channeling those "voices" again...