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Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perjury

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 02:01:02 PM EST
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Via Huffington Post....which is very, very fast with news updates. It's now one of my first stops. Lil' Kim was sentenced to one year and a day in federal prison for perjury today.

Actually, the judge did her a favor by adding the extra day. Had her sentence been just one year, she would have had to do the whole thing. Good time, which is 54 days a year in the federal system, doesn't apply to sentences of one year or less. Now, she will only have to do ten months.

Lil' Kim had some supporters at court:

One man's T-shirt read "Free Lil' Kim" and "Real Men Don't Snitch."

One of my favorite sweatshirts (I even got one for the TL kid): "Nobody talks, everybody walks."

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    Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perjury | 37 comments (37 topical)
    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#11)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:54 PM EST
    Glanton, How, pray tell, am I responsible for this? Because I wondered exactly how many "namby pamby lies" you were willing to accept in someone's trial testimony before you considered it to be a problem? Or is it, yet again, because I didn't join in your cries of "the sky is falling" (as if there wasn't enough of that here already)? In my opinion, if you want to place the blame on someone, look in the mirror. You are far too willing to accept "namby pamby lies" if they suit your own purposes (think here of everything Michael Moore has ever said). Our system of justice, as mangled as it has gotten of late, is still based on the premise that when one swears to tell the truth in court, one does just that. The minute you start arguing on behalf on those who have perjured themselves on the stand, you have done away with the foundation of our system. I don't doubt that Bush has lied about some things, and I certainly haven't argued that he hasn't, but I'll give him this much, he hasn't done so on the stand or while under oath. Does that somehow escuse it? Of course not, but then I'm not here making excuses for him. I simply asked you, based on your own words, whether you think that lying under oath is acceptable with a certain limit. If you are "pissed" because Martha or Lil Kim went to jail (or is going to jail) because of "some namby pamby lie", you are saying that you don't think certain lies should count. I respectfully disagree. If, on the other hand, your entire point was that Bush should be held to account for his: (1) You need to work on your presentation. amd (2) He was, in a sense, last November; sadly the people did not seem to care enough (or disagree with you about the number and severity of his lies) to cast him from office. How any of this is my fault is still an open question.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    And I will miss her for all of the year and a day she will be serving. Do you think this means when she gets out she might have a more hardcore /street style as opposed to the well to-do street walker image she has cultivated lo' these many years?

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#2)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    "Nobody talks, everybody walks." What am I missing? I understand the necessity of a proper defense for all folks accused of crimes, but this seems to almost take pleasure in the subversion of justice; criminals walking aided by their cohorts. Does your enthusiasm extend to the accomplices of violent crimes; rape or murder?

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#3)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Funny, p-wiggles, you're concerned about the sweatshirt but not about real social justice issues like the impending overturn of Miranda, for example. Trust me, despite the horrifying spectacle of a few liberal bloggers worrying about the rights of defendants, the police and the DA actually don't need any more help. They're nicely set up and for them it's only getting sweeter. Your silence on what is happening to civil liberties under the GOP watch, choosing instead to nitpick at liberals, is striking. Enjoy the Supreme Court nominee, perhaps even a pot dealer you know may fry in the chair next to a frying abortion doctor before it's over. But aren't those tax cuts great?

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#4)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    “Your silence on what is happening to civil liberties under the GOP watch, choosing instead to nitpick at liberals, is striking.” You just aren’t paying attention. Let me refresh … Flag burning v freedom: “I’ve never had an occasion to burn the flag; if this passes to the states it will be my first ... In my estimation your life, or a hundred thousand of your ilk, is worth less than my right of free expression.” White House Admits Detainees Can Be Held 'In Perpetuity: “There are some very basic, innate rights all folks have. One is due process … Charge them, try them, or let them go … It is this simple.” A couple from the recent archives; I think my body of comment here speaks for itself.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#5)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Yeah, I've seen those and others. I never said you were a neocon or a Rethug. I have said, and continue to say, that you appear ignorant of the gravity of what has happened and what continues to happen vis a vis GOP rule. A helluva lot of Libertarians voted for Dubya because they wanted a tax cut. Whether or not you personally committed this ridiculous act, your rhetoric implies an equivalence that does not exist. The danger in terms of civil rights and the military industrial complex is coming almost exclusively from one direction right now, and one only.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#6)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    And to throw this back into the immediate context of Lil' Kim's case, every time someone like her or Martha goes to jail over some comparatively namby-pamby lie, it's going to piss off people who care about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's because we see the hypocrisy of it. Lil' Kim does the time for her lie, our rulers get idolatry from the media and consequently reelected on the strength of their big, liberty-destroying lies.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#7)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Glanton, I think kim's lies were a bit more important than stewart's, and a lot more important than some blue dress;-) But I agree with your assessment of the 'big lie' and the lying liars who tell them.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#8)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Glanton, I'm not taking issue with you regarding the big lie vs. the little lie, but I am curious. Just what, exactly, do you think the words "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" mean if not just that? Is there a certain amount of dishonesty that you feel is acceptable when a witness is testifying in court? Does this depend on whether the defendant is someone with whom you sympathize, or are you willing to accept a certain amount of lying in every criminal case?

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Lil Kim: Judy Miller (perp) Biggie Smalls : Ahmed Chalabi (paramour) Lil Kim's posse : White House staff (gang being covered for) Perjury : contempt citation (offense) Only in the last pairing does the analogy break down a bit. Perhaps if Lil Kim had refused to testify, rather than merely lying, she too would be a cause celebre.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#10)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    No, justpaul, my wife and I like Lil' Kim quite a bit and both agree that it's as simple as she lied to the jury, and so deserves her punishment. It's just seeing it happen all over the news, with accompanying rhetoric about LYING, is hypocritical to the max given our current situation. And seeing those who claim to prize liberty above all else, to see them express sympathy towards or simply ignore the crimes of the Constitution-shredding fundies and the neocons on this website, even as they turn around and gasp because TL worries about defendant's rights, that is what sparked my post. You're another good example of someone with good sense, who seems to like freedom, yet someone we have to thank for this hellhole state we're descending towards. Thanks. But at least we got Lil' Kim.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#12)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Cops lie on the stand every day, and get incensed if anyone calls them on it. Judges often berate defendants when they are aquitted, accusing them of lying (at least the jury believed them you moron!). If I EVER see a persecutor or judge call a cop on lying, my feelings may change, but for now, get real people! Perjury laws only apply to one side

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    /cry.....think of all the wonderful "wardrobe malfunctions" we'll miss.... No really, Bye Lil' Kim. You couldn't rap your way out of a wet paper bag and you've had one too many grilled cheese sandwiches. Push yourself away from the table girlfriend, and save the leopard cat suit for when you actually look like a woman and not a sasquatch on a cheap beer binge. P.S., your extensions look fake, snaggletooth.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Roger, the amazing thing is judges privately admit all the time that they know cops lie. But they think/know the defendant was guilty (maybe guiltier is more appropriate) so they are 'pragmatic' and find guilty. If TL or Chris would weigh in on this part of the discussion I would appreciate it. Back on topic, kim lied about a shooting, and a stupid lie at that. I think the sentence was too harsh, but that may be because I don't think most people really understand what involuntary servitude is like.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#15)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    So your favorite is: --- One of my favorite sweatshirts (I even got one for the TL kid): "Nobody talks, everybody walks." --- Anyone who thinks that's a sentiment worth celebrating is amoral. Not immoral; that would imply knowing the difference between right and wrong.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    JR: Now you are defending the snitch culture that is destroying the fabric of America? Can you offer something other than tired cliches & ever more proof that your favorite music to dance to is Wagner? TL: Where did you get the sweatshirt? I got envy going here. -AW

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#17)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    Good career move for any for any rapper.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#18)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:55 PM EST
    All Writs said (to me): "Now you are defending the snitch culture that is destroying the fabric of America?" Snitch Culture? So if you saw a friend commit a crime, you would stay quiet about it? Telling the truth is honorable, it's not "snitching". I see that "All Writs" is in the amoral club with TL. Just bear in mind that the behavior you two are proposing is far more dangerous in the hands of prosecutors and police: "planted evidence? Lying to a grand jury? Why, I can't speak up, that would be snitching!' Congratulations you two - the world you would create looks a lot like Russia does right now.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#19)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    JR, In Florida, cohabitation is a crime. Should I turn in my friends? Disclosure- Reno used to ask this during job interviews when she was the Miami State Attorney

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#20)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    Actually, the Soviet Union made kids into heros when they turned in their parents. Nazi Germany did the same.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    I'd have more respect for Kim if she refused to testify, as opposed to lying under oath. To be honest, if I was in her shoes I wouldn't rat out a friend either, but I would refuse to testify and face the consequences of that as opposed to perjuring myself. A question for the lawyers, is this a common sentence for perjury or is it excessive? It seems to me perjury is pretty rampant, and also difficult to prove. I think Kim's celebrity and occupation has something to do with the harsh sentence.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    I would probably have opted out of testifying like kdog mentioned above. I know this will make me amoral I JR's view, but I really couldn't care less what he thinks. It was a stupid move on Lil' Kim's part to get up there on the stand and lie, because outside of police officers anybody perjuring themselves seem to be caught 90% of the time. Maybe she thought she could get away with it, but in the end she paid the price. Am I upset with the amount of time she got? Yes and no, but mostly no. Yes because it does seem a little excessive, but no because had this been me, the majority of people who post comments here, or any poor person they would have gotten a hell of a lot worse. And I think the rap world isn't losing too much with her in jail. I always liked Foxy Brown better, anyways.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    "nobody talks and everybody walks"...I like it too, I need to pick one up for myself. It's very true, judging by the month I served on a grand jury, the police couldn't catch a cold without a snitch or a confession. JR...I don't know where you live or grew up, but where I'm from snitching is about as far as you can get from "honorable". I guess you think Unger is the honarable character in "The Longest Yard".

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#24)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    glanton- Sorry TL, I know this is OT but I just can’t help myself. “A helluva lot of Libertarians voted for Dubya because they wanted a tax cut.” I only know how two libertarians voted this year; my wife and I voted a solid L ticket with a sprinkle of Rs and Ds when no L candidate was available. As for the sentiment from the L boards I visit; a fairly even split. I don’t recall a single discussion of tax cuts; most fiscal discussion revolved around deficits and SS/Medicare reform. “The danger in terms of civil rights and the military industrial complex is coming almost exclusively from one direction right now, and one only.” And this addresses the issue of ‘the lesser of two evils’ libertarians are faced with every election cycle. Given that the libertarian wing of the Republican Party died with Reagan… Which parties abstained in mass from signing the use of force act or the Patriot act? Which parties ran presidential candidates that refused to pass either (veto or signature)? Which parties’ presidential candidates ran under a plank of immediate withdrawal from Iraq? Was Kelo and Raich cause for introspection? That elephant in the room isn’t the republicans’.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#25)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    justpaul: A) Again, I am generally satisfied with the punishment Lil' Kim received. The fact that I like here and the fact that I am here, as usual, of the kdog school of thought, makes my concession difficult, by I have made it and make it again. Doesn't mean it isn't hypocrisy when anyone on the Right in this country decries lying or oppression. B) "You need to work on your presentation." No I don't, no more than the scientists in Kansas did, because in the case of each it's largely pointless, there's no convincing to be done at this point. The way things are set up at this point, the Rethugs could run Roy Moore in 2008 and win by the same exact margin of states that Dubya won by. Moreover, while confess to having been guilty of expressing optomism in the area of 2006, deep down I know they're gonna pick up seats then, too. Pigwiggle: Thought you knew more Libertarians than that. Oh, well, the parts of Texas I occupy is replete with them, young ones too, lovers of Ayn Rand and Adam Smith all, and I know at least twenty of them who voted for Dubya twice. They just don't want to make a lot of eye contact with you if you mention civil liberties.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#26)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Glanton, Very nice, but you still haven't specified how this is my fault. I also find myself wondering if you are as annoyed by those on the left who told the same "lies" you accuse Bush of telling. Somehow I doubt it, but who knows. Either way, at least we can agree that L'il Kim deserved what she got, but unlike Kdog, I hardly consider 366 days out of a possible 20 years to be "harsh".

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#27)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    justpaul: Let's take up the non-Lil' Kim aspect of our discussion the next time an Open Thread presents itself.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    jpaul...I consider 366 days in a cage pretty harsh considering Kim didn't hurt anybody. Perjury is a non-violent crime. 30 days seems more sane to me, if not probation or house arrest. As someone who spent only one night in a cage, I can say that denying someone their freedom is not to be taken lightly. We give out jail time in this country like candy on Halloween.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#29)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Kdog, Perjury is a corruption of our entire legal system. If we treat it lightly, what is to stop anyone, be it the "eyewitness" who claims to have seen the defendant commit the crime, the arresting officer who claims they were attacked with a weapon before they shot the defendant, or the unwilling defense witness who knows that the defendant is innocent, but for reasons of their own wants to see that person jailed, from lying on the stand? You may sympathize with L'il Kim because she lied to protect a friend, but what if she was lying to protect Dick Cheney? Would you then think perjury isn't such a big thing? I'm sorry, but on this one I cannot agree. If you can get up on the stand, swear to tell the truth, then lie without even the threat of serious consequences (and I'm sorry again but 366 days out of a possible 20 years is far from "harsh"), there will be no justice for anyone. Glanton: I'll take that as an admission that you are fully aware that this is not somehow "my fault". Simply choose your words and your targets better next time is all I ask.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#30)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    justpaul: Don't take it as anything of the kind. What I'm saying is, for us to better flesh out the larger political issues of complicity and deceit, that have been indirectly triggered by this thread, we would be better off taking it into an Open Thread. The first one that comes up, I'm ready to go.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    jpaul...you make a good, fair point. I just feel that perjury is so rampant in our justice system (just as dishonesty is rampant in society in general), to give Kim a year while prosecutiuon witnesses get away with it all the time is a case of selective prosecution. For example, if Kim had lied to bolster a prosecutor's case, would she have even been tried? I doubt it very much. This is why I am curious as to the usual sentence for a perjury conviction, is a year in prison the norm? Anyone?

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Also, to clarify, I am not defending perjury. As I said above, the better, more honest option would have been to refuse to testify and face the consequences of that refusal.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#33)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    KDog, In the past 12 years, I have not ever seen a person actually charged with perjury. I did see someone locked up when the Judge, independantly, found probable cause that a PERSECUTION witness lied. The state never followed up, so she was never charged. She did spend a night in jail though. Of course, this judge is no longer on the bench.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#34)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Glanton, I see that your delusions of significance truly know no bounds. I am not at all interested in discussing what you consider the "larger issue of political complicity and deceit" with you. You made a direct claim that I, personally, was somehow to blame for the problems you see in our legal and/or political systems; that I am somehow to blame because L'il Kim is going to jail for a clear cut case of perjury and Bush is not for what you may well consider a lie but which many people disagree with you on. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was not involved in the decision to send L'il Kim to jail, and, as it turned out, my electoral votes went to Ak Gore and John Kerry, not George Bush. You may have some desire to rehash the liberal fanaticists neverending claims about Bush and lies, but I don't. I am more than willing to admit that Bush, like every politician, has probably lied as often as he has told the truth. But this is not a legal issue unless he was on the stand, under oath, when he did so. I'm sorry that you can't see the difference in that, but if so it's a fact I'm more than comfortable living with. This entire exchange is just one more example, as if one was needed, for why I'm not at all upset about the idiotic hoops it now takes to post a comment here. You made a stupid accusation, and rather than admit that there was no basis for it, you now wish to continue it elsewhere at a later date, either because you are simply too arrogant to admit that you simply assumed, and not for the first time, that I am a Bush fan because I did not parrot your comments, or because you are too stupid to see that I am not, in fact, a Bush fan at all. Either way, it doesn't mean a whole lot to me and I am more than willing to consider the issue closed. You have more than proved your ignorance to anyone who has been paying attention to this ridiculous tit for tat BS and I see no reason to help you continue doing so. But feel free to continue on your own. I'm moving on. Kdog, Fair enough. In my own mind, I would rather see a prosecution witness who lied about a parking offense go to jail than to see a defense witness who lied about seeing someone go to jail, just because I would rather see the guilty man go free than the truly innocent railroaded. But I will not accept the idea that either is truly "a good thing" (to quote Martha). Peace be with ALL of you.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Thanks Rog...your experiences confirm my suspicions regarding perjury. It seems to only apply to defense witnesses. jpaul...peace to you brother, nice to hear from you again. I can count on a rational debate with you without the partisan nonsense. I feel I've learned a little something, and I get a different perspective on things. Come back more often.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#36)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Roger has a point, Mark Furman should have been eligible for the death penalty, (under CA law, if you commit perjury in a crim trial, you are liable for the same penalty that the defendent could have received.) And BTW, it's so nice to see commenters who can disagree, make intelligent args and perhaps sway thru logic each side that is open to other POVs. It beats the heck out of mindless diatribes.

    Re: Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perju (none / 0) (#37)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    The post that triggered jp's demand for an explanation and subsequent assumption that I couldn't give one: "You're another good example of someone with good sense, who seems to like freedom, yet someone we have to thank for this hellhole state we're descending towards. Thanks. But at least we got Lil' Kim." justpaul this post says nothing about you being a Bush fan. One doesn't have to be a fan, or even to vote GOP, to be an enabler. Perhaps colmes (unlikely, but perhaps) votes Democrat too but at the end of the day who gives a damn? His entire rhetorical enterprise serves to airbrush the GOP agenda. For over a year now you've been pulling this "I'm in the middle" crap, like you're some MAverick or some such nonesense, acting as if there was something reasonable about what the GOP is doing. As if the assault on civil liberties had two sides to it. It is indeed people like you, people who know better but who are either too timid or too freakin' stupid to see that all things are not equal, that there is a clear line drawn, period. Thou milquetoast brick in the GOP edifice, save thy indignation, it's just as stupid as a dyed-in-the-wool Republican decrying perjury or deceit of any kind. Hypocrite, vermin, destroyer by default. Why don't you go become Lindsay Graham's lover and get it over with?

    Lil' Kim: One Year and a Day in Jail for Perjury | 37 comments (37 topical)