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London Transit System Attacks

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Thu Jul 07, 2005 at 08:37:12 AM EST
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Terrorist attacks in London today. The Guardian is running this updated news blog with the headline that London is in chaos.

Blair said the "terrorist attacks" were clearly designed to coincide with the G-8 summit opening in Gleneagles, Scotland. They also came a day after London won the bid to host the 2012 Olympics. A group calling itself "The Secret Organization of al-Qaida in Europe" claimed responsibility.

The explosions hit three subway stations and a double-decker bus in rapid succession between 8:30 and 9:30 a.m. local time. Implementing an emergency plan, authorities immediately shut down the subway and bus lines that log 8.4 million passenger trips every weekday. It brought the city's transportation system to a halt.

Here is the statement claiming responsibility.

[comments now closed - this thread has deteriorated into personal insults]

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    London Transit System Attacks | 111 comments (111 topical)
    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    Way to go Phony Tony...you have kept Britain safe from Saddam Hussein. I get the feeling that these type of attacks will continue as long as Bush and Blair don't have to ride the subways. Meanwhile...look for this to be exploited to the max by the neocons and for the invasion of Iran to begin shortly.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    'Basque separatists'? Nonviolent protesters of the US-UK genocide in Iraq can only renew the call for Blair to resign for the racist and fascist lies that have put us all at greater risk. 'Putting out fires' with gasoline is not a strategy worthy of great nations.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    My heart goes out to the citizens of London. Fighting in Iraq has not helped the British, and I fear it is only a matter time before the next attack in America proves it has not helped Americans. So much for Georgie's "fight them there so we don't fight them here" philosophy. The enemy is AQ....it's a shame our leaders have forgotten that fact in the last few years.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#4)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    I’m a bit surprised only ~40 people were killed. A couple of months ago I rode the Underground about and to Kings Cross and the trains through Kings Cross. They were absolutely packed shoulder to shoulder.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    The Mayor of London made a great speech today:
    Mr Livingstone said the blasts were "mass murder by terrorists bent on indiscriminate slaughter". "I want to say one thing to the world: this was not a terrorist attack against the mighty or the powerful," he said. "it is not aimed at presidents or prime ministers, it was aimed at ordinary working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. "It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever. "That isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted faith, it's mass murder. "We know what the objective is. They seek to divide London, to turn Londoners against each other. "London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. "Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. "They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I'm proud to be the Mayor of this city." In a message aimed directly at the terrorists "who came to London to take life", the Mayor added: "I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others, that is why you are so dangerous. "But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society, and I can show you why you will fail. "In the days that follow, look at our airports, look at our seaports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential. "They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free. "They come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. "They flee you because you tell them how they should live. "They don't want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. "Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail."


    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    five posts and not one critical of the guys blowing up innocents-you must be proud. I am still waiting for the Rove/jews did it conspiracy theories to come.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    That's because condemnation of mass murder goes without saying amongst civilized people.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:56 PM EST
    yes-civilized people use it as an opportunity to bash Bush and urge surrender to jihadists. I am sure the zionist/neocon/jew conspiracy sites are working overdrive. you know, the ones you count as allies against the WOT.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Ed go f- yourself...at least when we condemn people it isnt followed by a war that kills hundreds of thousands and puts us in debt for a generation. And yes makes us all LESS safe than we were before.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Ed, it is because some of us feel that the war in Iraq has fueled the jihadists and more importantly seriously hindered the pursuit of AQ. I feel awful for all of those in London and those that perpetrated the acts are terrorist jerkoffs. But it does not cloud my thinking or reasoning that allowing AQ to take refuge in the mountains while we mistakenly focused on Iraq was a serious mistake. Imagine having 130,000 troops deployed not in Iraq but along the border of Afghanistan/Pakistan to root out Osama. Sad day for the UK.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    must have struck a nerve to get such a defensive reaction. the heroic Minutemen surely had a good reason for doing what they did. after all, we are the Nazis-it follows the other side must be good. the good deeds should be trumpeted, right? Ward, Michael, anyone?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#12)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    George Galloway's comment [via Kos]: We argued, as did the security services in this country, that the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq would increase the threat of terrorist attack in Britain. Tragically Londoners have now paid the price of the Government ignoring such warnings. We extend our condolences to those who have lost their lives today and our heartfelt sympathy to all those who have been injured by the bombs in London. No one can condone acts of violence aimed at working people going about their daily lives. They have not been a party to, nor are they responsible for, the decisions of their government. They are entirely innocent and we condemn those who have killed or injured them. The loss of innocent lives, whether in this country or Iraq, is precisely the result of a world that has become a less safe and peaceful place in recent years. We have worked without rest to remove the causes of such violence from our world. We argued, as did the Security Services in this country, that the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq would increase the threat of terrorist attack in Britain. Tragically Londoners have now paid the price of the government ignoring such warnings. We urge the government to remove people in this country from harms way, as the Spanish government acted to remove its people from harm, by ending the occupation of Iraq and by turning its full attention to the development of a real solution to the wider conflicts in the Middle East. Only then will the innocents here and abroad be able to enjoy a life free of the threat of needless violence.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    must have struck a nerve to get such a defensive reaction.
    Sorry for the tone...but I see where this is going >>> IRAN.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    We urge the government to remove people in this country from harms way, as the Spanish government acted to remove its people from harm, by ending the occupation of Iraq and by turning its full attention to the development of a real solution to the wider conflicts in the Middle East
    Lest this passage give fuel to the wingnuts false but oft-repeated claim that Spain "gave in to the terrorists", the winner of the Spanish elelctions was leading in the polls before the bombing on a promise to end Spanish participation in the occupation of Iraq.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#15)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Ernesto: You may be interested in the following analysis, written before today's bombings in London. Targeting Iran Paul Rogers Oxford Research Group 7 - 7 - 2005 How does the election of Iran’s new president affect the likelihood of a United States – or an Israeli – attack?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Ed, Where are YOUR condolences? You use the deaths of others to attack your opposition. You are one hypocritical POS. I grieve for Iraqi civilians, not for enablers.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Ed arrives to argue the inarguable. Tell you what, you amateur, go find a political circle jerk where you can do nothing but stroke your own preconceptions, paradigms and prejudices. Here we tend to speak the ugly truth and engage in the difficult job of self-examination. If you can't get the tilt of this thread, you need serious psychiatric help. The idiotic war in Iraq, carried out without an ounce of imagination or creativity or genuine concern for Iraqis, has only fanned the flames of hatred, proving once again that our only answers to violence is more of the same, and to a far greater extent than was projected onto us.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    you get angry when one calls you out as to where your sympathies are. why get mad at me when it's your own morals that are out of whack. you call this a response to Iraq-the other side doesn't need Iraq for an excuse to kill(see 9/11, the date forgotten here-no occupation then/see Israel for the track record of random slaughter). scurry for the dark when a light is shined on your words.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    It seems Ed believes there are no consqeuences to the foreign policy decisions made by governments, us here in the 'reality based community' realize that if you kick the dog enough eventually he is going to start biting back. Wed-Thanks for posting the speech. very good.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    It's the famous Mr. Ed! I'm not sure why posting a speech by the Mayor of London condemning the attacks in the strongest possible terms doesn't count as criticism of said attacks (was it because it was written in British English?), but whatever. But this Jew would kindly thank you not to drag her into your sordid agenda.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#21)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    GregZ`writes:
    It seems Ed believes there are no consqeuences to the foreign policy decisions made by governments, us here in the 'reality based community' realize that if you kick the dog enough eventually he is going to start biting back.
    Perhaps you can tell us what we did to deserve such actions. Two things you must remember. No matter what Ernesto says, arming OBL is not justifcation for OBL attacking us. 9/11 was the last of a series of attacks that date back to the American Embassy takeover in '79. From that date forward the attacks grew larger, more deadly, and closer together. Now, tell us about the dog kicking. webmacher - Sorry, but you don't get to opt out. Ask those who were going to work this morning in London.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    the jihadists bite back and bite themselves without being kicked(again, 9/11). keep looking for reasons to sympathize with their mass murder though-I'm sure you will think of something. No wonder Karl Rove's comments caused such a stir-he hit the nail on the head. you would think you could find better heroes than jihadists but as long as they are anti-Bush, I guess any port in a storm.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    webmacher, excellent quote from the London Mayor; that is exactly the kind of inspiring speech people need and deserve from their leaders in times such as these. What do we get; "dead or alive", "bring it on" , "mission accomplished." ed is a racist know nothing who has never contributed a single positive thing to this site. I agree with the majority, ed GFY. ppj, I expected better from you than dishonest, divisive speech to make a cheap political point when the rest of us are coming together in support of the people of London.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Eddie baby, Please go reread Livingston's speech. Note how this proudly left-wing mayor rises to the defense of his city and his country, although he does not always agree with his leaders' actions. Next to their recruits, the terrorists have no better partners than people like you, for you'll keep the party rolling right along. Karl Rove and and his ilk seem to attack their fellow Americans more often than they mention Osama Bin Laden these days. You have no right to speak for those murdered in today's terrible attack, and you have no right to speak for me.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    I apologize. It seems it was PPJ making those last comments I was responding to. PPJ, I'm very disappointed in you. Go read Livington's speech and think about what's wrong with what you said.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Ed, I cannot understand you. I try and try, but it's no use. OBVIOUSLY, 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq. We agree on that. But now we've turned Iraq into a chaotic war-zone, can't disagree there. But the right has said we're doing this in Iraq, and I assume you'd agree, so we can fight the terrorists there instead of here, yes? Then doesn't logic follow that, in addition to the motivation of the 9/11 perpetrators (not Iraq), we now also have terrorists who see Iraq as a separate rallying point and reason for terror? They didn't need Iraq before, they had Saudi Arabia. Now we GIVEN them Iraq, too. This is logic and reason. How can you possibly think a tough examination of our responses to terror is bad for a free country to engage in?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    again with the racial comments when jihadists aren't a race. it must mean you can't argue when that begins. when you make excuses for the murders like many of you do and are already beginning to do for this particular band of monsters, you are effectively allying yourselves with the murderers. when being anti-Bush means you take the side of jihadist murderers, you should take a long look at your conscience and figure out where you went wrong.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#28)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Tony Blair said today: It's important, however, that those engaged in terrorism realize that our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause death and destruction to innocent people in a desire to impose extremism on the world. I thought of how these very same words might have been spoken by the survivors of Fallujah. (Warning: This link is not for the squeamish.) Speaking from London this morning, Tony Benn associated today's bombings with Fallujah in his remarks to Amy Goodman at Democracy Now. I doubt that we have a public figure in America with that kind courage and insight. For Americans Fallujah has pretty much gone down the Memory Hole. Outside the U.S. it is rightly regarded as the new Guernica. Let me be perfectly clear. Terrorism is never justified, regardless of which party commits it.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Ed, It's hard enough to follow you sometimes, but impossible when you don't address your comments to someone when it seems to apply. I know they weren't for me, but they make no sense whatsoever without the name of who you're railing against. Thank you, The Management

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    It was a general statement-most posters here find excuses for the bombers instead of disgust for them(that is reserved for Bush). most posters here would happily see us lose even if that means the jihadist head sawers win. being anti-Bush is more important than making sure the head sawers don't come out on top. sorry I don't make that clear enough for you.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Ed,

    Your accusations are ridiculous, and if you can't make an argument without fabricating and falsely accusing people, just give it up!

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    I don't find anyone here excusing anything here. They are simply trying to go beyond the reactionary instinct of blind vengeance, and trying to figure out what can be done BEYOND the military might that has so far accomplished much less than the American people were sold this war on. I didn't believe the sell to begin with, but a lot of people did. We've fought fire with fire from 9/11 on, when most fire is put out with water. Any terrorist has the vegas house advantage in any "war". Since all they have to do is succeed a few times out of a thousand to be perceived as winning. What they can't do is call on the other power, beyond the mere military, the economic and intellectual wealth and resources that only NATIONS possess, and they can beat the opponent not at the opponents' game, but at the game we make THEM play. Instead, we've been drawn into something we cannot control. It's not our game, and it's not one our military is trained to play. It's all about imagination, to this patriotic liberal anyway.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    My heart goes out to the people of London today. The PEOPLE, not their government, whose members stay all nice and safe in their special little bunkers, not their wealthy monied class who stay safely out of harm's way by not having to work an honest day in their lives and who are busy funding wars in order to receive favors from their buddies in government. No, my sympathy is for the ordinary working class souls of London, the same ordinary working class people who ALWAYS bear the brunt of all terrorist attacks brought upon them by the wealthy and those in government who spend their lives pissing off radicals just to try to get a bigger piece of the pie. Wars are started by kings, and fought by pawns. In the mind of the king, the pawn is always expendable. Do you really think Tony Blair has shed one REAL tear over this? Of course not, hell, it's not his family. His family is tucked away in an ivory tower where real world events that he helps orchestrate will never impact them in any way.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    regular posters here have indicated they would be insurgents(the folks that blow up their fellow Iraqis) if they were in Iraq and have found justification for lynching of Americans in Fallujah(don't forget screw em Kos/michael moore/ward churchill). I don't save remarks but there are plenty similar. trying faux outrage in response to pointing this out doesn't become you. fenria, a la Galloway, feigns sympathy for the working class, while noting the government would be a better target for the bombs. how ever could I think you favor the other side?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    fenria, a la Galloway, feigns sympathy for the working class, while noting the government would be a better target for the bombs. how ever could I think you favor the other side?
    Actually, I would like to see OBL and the rest of his organization dead.......but for some strange reason, they don't appear to be in IRAQ!!! Duh? Duh.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    And would I see one king die in order to spare thousands of innocent pawn lives? I would.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    the jihadists don't care who they kill-they killed thousands at the WTC/dozens(hundreds?) in London/many more in between. if they could, they would kill millions, with or without your permission and without regard to who is in the White House/Downing Street or anywhere else. they are happy to say so-don't you listen? those are your allies-doesn't that keep you up at night?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#38)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    British parlimentarian Tony Benn's comments from this morning have finally been made available over at Democracy Now. It is something long expected, and the casualties at the moment are miniscule compared to what happened on 9/11 or what’s happened in Fallujah, but they’re all casualties of the war. . . . When you think about it, you realize that hundreds of thousands of people have been killed -- well over a hundred thousand -- as a result of this war [in Iraq], and at some stage you have to ask yourself, “How can we end the violence?” It’s not the terrorism just, it’s the violence, because terrorism and bombing are the same. The suicide bomber and the stealth bomber both kill innocent people for political purposes. And you have to turn your mind to how you deal with this. I find Benn to be incisive. Contrary to what some folks in this thread have been saying, the main question is not about apportioning blame. It's about breaking the cycle of violence. The harvest of justice is sown in peace (James 3:18).

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Benn sounds like a smart guy, it takes guts to speak the truth like that on a day your country has been terrorized. Imagine a US congressman making that speech, the Republicans would have him villified, tarred, and feathered by lunchtime.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    those are your allies-doesn't that keep you up at night?
    You know what dude, I was just a child during the 80's, but I remember going with my parents to the '84 Olympics in L.A. and holding up a sign about peace in the ME. Where were you when Saddam was killing his own? Probably busy kissing Reagans belly button from the inside just like the rest of your ditto monkey troop. Don't tell me about protesting evil regimes and killers, I'm there, I've BEEN there. You, on the other hand, have probably been politically active since 9/11, just like the rest of your rightwing echo chamber heads. You want to think that the terrorists are my allies? Fine then, two can play that game you facist. The world would be a much better place if we could just lock rightwingers like you in a room with the terrorists and let you both get rid of each other, without any other innocent lives being ended in the process. You guys are nothing more than two sides of the same extreme coin; the Christian Taliban against the Islamic Taliban. Man, you guys both totally suck! Why don't you take all your extremist buddies and just get lost so that the rest of the world can get along and live in peace!

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    War and violence breed terrorists Jim. Destruction angers people and they often seek revenge and retribution through any means possible.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Yeah fenria....well said. That's what wingers like Ed don't get. In their twisted minds, they think a criticism of the US is an endorsement of terrorism. They don't realize it's the good people of the world vs. the murderous tyrants.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#43)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    kdog,
    Benn sounds like a smart guy, it takes guts to speak the truth like that on a day your country has been terrorized.
    Equating A) deliberately targeting nonviolent civilians (suicide bombers) and B) accepting casualties among nonviolent civilians while targeting violent terrorists who hide among nonviolent civilians (stealth bombers) is not "incisive" it's cheap rhetoric. All war creates civilian casualties -- terrorists are doing something genuinely worse by pursuing them as a goal rather than accepting them as an unfortunate side effect. Paul in LA will shortly re-claim that that U.S. troops are deliberately targeting innocent civilians. If you buy that, you didn't buy my statement above...

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#44)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Anyone who cares to look into it will discover that there is lots of evidence that civilians were deliberately targeted in the two U.S. assaults on Fallujah -- and elsewhere in Iraq. It is reprehensible to shrug war crimes off with the remark that all war creates civilian casualties.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Roy et al, it is also an insult to intellectual honesty to continue to support Iraq as the forefront in the war on terror while AQ continues to operate and murder innocent civilians. We have committed an unbelievable amount of financial and military capital to the Iraq war whilst turning our backs on the perpertrators of 9-11 and London. If we had continued in our efforts to root out terror by "bringing those responsible for 9-11" to justice to the tune of 200 Billion and 130,000 or so troops in Afghanistan along the Pakistani border, perhaps we would have captured Osama and a significant portion of the AQ leadership. Instead, we have a miniscule number of troops committed to breaking the back of AQ and 130,000 troops in a country that has now become a training ground for new terrorists. AQ started the war of terror and the decision to commit 130,000 troops elsewhere was not only the WRONG decision, it as a HORRIBLE one.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Juan Cole on Micheal Scheuer.
    He believes that al-Qaeda is an insurgent ideology focused on destroying the United States and its allies, because its members believe that the US is trying to destroy them. Al-Qaeda members see the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Palestinians, backed by the US; US support for military regimes like those of Pakistan and Egypt; and US military occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq as evidence of a US onslaught on Islam and Muslims aimed at reducing them to neo-colonial slavery. That is, specific Western policies are the focus of al-Qaeda response, not a generalized "hatred" of "values."
    The entire interview can be found here NPR Morning Edition.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#47)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Terrorism had existed for decades without any war or some similar violence to incite it. The ME radicals who practice terrorism want the West - physically, economically and culturally - out of the ME. The West declines to leave. Terrorism by these radicals against the West will likely exist until the ME oil supplies are exhausted, at which point the West will likely happily leave the ME. It's non-political (left v. right).

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    terrorists are doing something genuinely worse by pursuing them as a goal rather than accepting them as an unfortunate side effect.
    Well of course they are, that's why they're terrorists. They're desperate people who are single minded and feel they have nothing left to lose. Yet another really good reason not to piss them off or create more of them unnecessarily. (read: the Iraq war) Think about removing a hornet's nest....do you go up and start poking it? Well, I guess if you're George Bush you do. Meanwhile, anyone with two cents worth of I.Q. takes their time and surgically removes the nest with the utmost care as to disturb as few of the hornets as possible. Being bombastic and belligerent like the current Administrations in both the U.S. and Britian will do nothing but piss off the terrorists to the point of retaliation while creating and calling upon more terrorists from all over the world to join their cause. You don't solve problems by escalating them, and you don't win hearts and minds with hidden agendas that are as transparent as plastic wrap. You win hearts and minds through true altuism, a word which the ruling classes of this world wouldn't know the meaning of if their worthless lives depended on it.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    is that fascist like racist is used here-to end discussion? even if you could do it, it wouldn't save you. Daniel Pearl wanted to tell their side of the story-it didn't stop the separation of his head from his body. if they killed all the right wingers like you wished, they would still kill you. if they killed all the jews like they want, the story would be the same. sorry to tell you and upset your world view of Bush as the sum of all evils.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#50)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Posted by Ed at July 7, 2005 10:34 AM five posts and not one critical of the guys blowing up innocents-you must be proud. I am still waiting for the Rove/jews did it conspiracy theories to come.
    Why did you include the fifth message in that statement? Did you not read it?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#51)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Ed, The terrorists loooove Bush and Bush loves them back. You think Bush would have gotten a second term without 9/11? You think OBL would have seen the recruiting boom he is getting throughout the entire Mid-east if we hadn't occupied Iraq? It's a symbiotic relationship...they feed off eachother. And that's why you should hate them both. Theologicus nailed it...the circle of violence must be broken. The big problem here is that it's so f-ing profitable for those running it!!

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#52)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    Ed,
    regular posters here have indicated they would be insurgents(the folks that blow up their fellow Iraqis) if they were in Iraq
    I've posted here for over 2 years which for this blog is a long time. I have never read where anyone posted what you claim. How about providing some examples where anyone said that they would be insurgents in Iraq. When it comes to blogs, disagreement over positions comes with the territory, but making false claims is out of line. I rarely resort to namecalling but in your case I'll make an exception. You are a liar. How sad that those apologists for Bush's war have to substitute smears and lies for reasoned arguement.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#53)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    You win hearts and minds through true altuism...
    ...the circle of violence must be broken...
    I won't argue that invading Iraq helped reduce terrorism, or that scaling back in Afghanistan was a good idea. But Fenria and Ernesto seems to say that terrorists will stop being terrorists if we just stop fighting back and start being nice toward somebody (not making fun, Fenria, just unclear: who are we supposed to be altruistic toward in order to stem terrorism?). People who blow up their neighbors for daring to have a say in how the nation is run don't care about a cycle of violence, they care about gaining power by any means necessary. People who murder children hanging out in a park don't see altruism as a virtue. If you have a specific historical example where altruism or breaking a cycle of violence reduced terrorism, please point it out and I will be hasty to apologize. I'm no historian, I get proven wrong a lot in these discussions, so go for it.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    roy, Explain to me please... pleeeeeze... how what we are doing in Iraq is helping the cause of defeating terrorism.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    "they care about gaining power by any means necessary." Yes. Has there been any conflict that was not, fundamentally, over power? Miltary, economic and cultural power. The only way they can get this power is if the West decides to give up its power and leave the ME. It's going to be a long road.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#56)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Ernesto,
    Explain to me ... how what we are doing in Iraq is helping the cause of defeating terrorism.
    I quote myself here: "I won't argue that invading Iraq helped reduce terrorism." That said, I think the idea is that by making Iraq a free democratic country we'll show others in the region that peaceful democracy leads to a better quality of life than any sort of extremism, thus driving people to pursue democracy rather than terrorism. I don't think that's a crazy idea, but it certainly hasn't worked so far. Maybe in ten years, when Iraq settles down. Plus, Saddam was supposedly using his government to promote terrorism. That's since been shown to be either trivial or made up, depending on which blog you believe.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#57)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    I think we should show some RESPECT for those who were killed and injured today in London by avoiding POLITICIZING this tragedy, at least for today. We should send our sympathize and condolences out to all the families who have lost people that they love in these bombings. We Americans stand beside Londoners and all of England today, the way they stood beside us after 9/11. I personally wish to express my own shock and deep sadness at the deaths of those our British brothers and sisters.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#58)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    The best way to respect the victims is to find a way to prevent more people from becoming victims.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Maybe in ten years, when Iraq settles down.
    Why would it settle down? I totally agree with your last post.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    As a Londoner born and bred I'd just like to say to the lefties on this site, thanks. To the idiots (Ed, roy and ppj), go stick your heads where the sun don't shine. You make me want to puke! Blair and Bush are the biggest terrorists there are. See if you can find a vid clip of Blair's statement from Gleneagles this morning (I watched it live). Tony was flanked by Bush and Chirac. Chirac was looking shocked, grave and serious as befits todays sad events. What the hell was the expression on George "Wanker" Bush's face? Looked to me like he was desperately trying now to break out in a big grin, lips pursed. Picture 9 in this series is the best I can do at the moment. What the fek! Probably thinking off the bounce this will give him in the polls. Funny how things like this happen just when he needs it. Most of the UK was against the war in Iraq but we are in "New Europe" where our leaders don't listen to their people. They UK was going to draw down forces from Iraq to send them to Afghanistan but now I guess "we will will stay the course", whatever the hell that means. We are not safer and the war profiteers are richer. OBL, Bush and Blair are from the same mould. Evil men who climb the pile of inocent corpses to power and riches.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    roy...good point about targeting civilians. But would the terrorists target civilians if they had access to stealth bombers? Terror has been used as a tactic before the muslim crazies starting blowing themselves up (the IRA for example). In my opinion, terror is a desperation tactic when hopelessly overmatched militarily. I'm not defending it, only trying to understand it. We must understand it to defend against it. Here's another angle....loosing a loved one by cluster bomb or suicide bomb makes little difference. Whether your loved one was targeted or merely "collateral damage" makes little difference as well. That's what I like about Benn's statement...he's saying dropping more bombs or deploying more troops isn't the answer. It won't prevent the next act of terror. I agree. Break the cycle of violence. How to go about doing that is the million dollar question. All we know for sure is "shock and awe" and occupations ain't gonna cut it.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#62)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    FD writes:
    To the idiots (Ed, roy and ppj), go stick your heads where the sun don't shine. You make me want to puke!
    Then please go puke and quit talking about it. I mean that is what the Left does best. Talk about it. And as you talk, understand something. You are in a war. You are just too damn dumb to realize it. Aaraon writes:
    I think we should show some RESPECT for those who were killed and injured today in London by avoiding POLITICIZING this tragedy, at least for today.
    Your concern is so touching. And your sacrifice is so great. Are you sure you can wait a full day? I mean 24 long hours before you start blaiming America and England? JH - Well Socceredad agreed with OBL's description of the US governemnt and Ernesto said:
    The Neocons are every bit as bad as our former CIA asset Bin Laden.
    Now that isn't the same as saying they would be insurgents, but it does raise some questions. Ernesto writes:
    The terrorists loooove Bush and Bush loves them back. You think Bush would have gotten a second term without 9/11?
    Ernesto, if we had some ham we would have some ham and eggs if we had some eggs. If you think that sounds stupid, read what you said above. Ever wonder why people don't take you seriously? GregZ writes from Juan Cole:
    That is, specific Western policies are the focus of al-Qaeda response, not a generalized "hatred" of "values."
    That's funny, because it is not what OBL has said in public interviews. Read what he said, not what someone wishes he said. This is from an interview he gave Peter Arnett of CNN.
    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?
    BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world
    In case English is not your first language, that means we must let Muslims do whatever they want "in the whole world." i.e. Nothing specific. Just let them do what they please.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Then please go puke and quit talking about it. I mean that is what the Left does best. Talk about it. And as you talk, understand something. You are in a war. You are just too damn dumb to realize it.
    Pure class jim. I'm in a war alright. A war on complete twats like you.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#64)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Can I just go off-message for a sec to distance myself from PPJ? Invading Iraq was a mistake. Bush lied to make it happen. He uses terrorism to score political points. He is a power-monger. We should have concentrated on Afghanistan. Thank you all for your indulgence.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    PPJ...Bush said he had a good year in 2001. The year that 3,000 people were killed...he had a good year. Damn good as a matter of fact, and he has been riding the wave ever since. Now watch him try and exploit this latest attack...even though he and people like you have been running the "it's better to fight them there than here" canard up the flag pole for the past few months. Another mistaken wingnut justification for occupying Iraq bites the dust.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Nice one roy. Welcome to the reality based comunity. The reality is that failure is the only reward for stupidity and it's stupid to think you can have war against an abstract noun. Jim, maybe we should all just stop talking and go back to the trees.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#67)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    There is no war on terror there never has been and in fact you can't have war on a tactic. PPj can spout his dleuslional crap until the cows come home it doesn't make it right. The war in Iraq has always been a war about geopolitical power. With the mideast oil crucial to the US and the Saudis trying to get us out of SA to take pressure off their ruling family, CENTCOM had to relocate somewhere. No problem they would go in kick Saddam's ass, build a bunch of bases install a friendly governement and there you go, a strong foothold in the ME by which to protect the friendly governments that supply us oil. Unfortunately things are not going as planned. The war is headed in the wrong direction. The Shias have no intention on giving up their long held dream to rule Iraq and form a stronger bond with Iran. Iran has been the big winner in all of this, with greater influence in Iraq and throughout Asia having made major deals with China, Russia, India etc. The US according to the geopolitical strategy must go after the more power Iran and do it soon, since Iran will certainly go after Nukes. The US feels it must do this not because of the "crazy mullah" argument but because of the deterrence effect on the US the possession of nukes by Iran would have on US options. What is really more ominous is the instability introduced into the ME by Bush's misadventure in Iraq. The increased trainingg of more terrorists and lets not forget the tons of explosives that have fallen into the wrong hands. The military tactics of shock and awe, collective punishment and disregard for the safety and well being of the average Iraqi who was not a terrorist, has bred much increased hatred and resentment by not only Iraqis but Muslims everywhere. This was all predicted before the war, i.e. failure to act as liberators and failure to carry out the necessary roles of peace keeping, police work and reconstruction would cause hatred and resentment because of the lomg held suspicions held by ME muslims concerning the intentions of the US. So now we have increased number of well trained and well equiped terrorists in Iraq ready to spread their work to other ME countries as well as England and the US. Note how little has been done inthe US to meet a terrorist threat. Terrorism is a tacic used by people whose ultimate goals are political. Any approach to dealing with the terrorism problem must include, but not be limited to, approaches to dealing with the political issues, Creating a series of failed states will only make the problem worse. Look for the instability introduced into the ME by Bush and his merry band of neocons to spread to other ME countries with attacks on the oil supply being a big priority. Remember AQ is in 60 countries and growing in strength. Are you going to invade 60 countries. If we slide further towards losing Iraq and therefore our geopolitical center of power, and as Iran grows stronger, and as China becomes a bigger economic player in the region how far will Bush go to carry out the Carter Doctrine, i.e. the use of military force to protect the flow of oil. Also don't forget our medling in the ME for the purposes of protecting oil supply goes back to at least 1953 when we helped the British overthrow the democratic leader of Iran who wanted to nationalize the oil industry. Better buy a hybrid fast, those SUVs wont be worth anything in a year or two.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#68)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    In case English is not your first language...
    Not sure what language they speak in the Bizzaro World you inhabit, Jim (wingnutian?) but you have been saying the same hooey for over a year now. And over again. But read the whole quote and in its context you see that OBL is saying nothing but a version of "an eye for an eye". This is the same thing you preach, nothing more, nothing less. You are of basically the same mindset as a terrorist that you despise. How ironic. And so we can now clearly recognize you as much more a part of the problem than any solution to it.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#69)
    by John Mann on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Jim whined for the umpteenth time: "In case English is not your first language, that means we must let Muslims do whatever they want "in the whole world." i.e. Nothing specific. Just let them do what they please." Golly, Jim - I go away for a couple months only to come back to see you dragging out the same old crap. I don't think you're stupid - so why not just head on over to your local community college and sign up for that night class in Remedial English Comprehension? You'll be glad you did, and so will everyone else who's been wading through your interminable cries for attention.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#72)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Iraq has made wonderful progress
    yes it has towards civial war and a failed state. Congrats to Bush.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#73)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Ernesto - Yes, I do repeat myself when I am dealing with people I find a bit out of touch with the real world. But, in SD's, John Mann's, FD's and your case it appears that I have not been able to penetrate the layers of propaganda you have absorbed. roy has back slid, but lost lambs are always welcome to return. ;-) BTW - Same mindset? How drool. Let me remind you that I didn't fly any airplanes into buildings full of helpless people. And you still have provided no strategy on how to win. I am starting to think you don't want us to.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#74)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Foreign Devil, thanks for writing. first I'd like to give my condolences to all in London and the UK. The recent attacks you suffered were literally terrifying and you all have my sympathies and best wishes. On this day, we are all Londoners. 2nd, pay no attention to the bizarro worlders on this site. While they may represent the american admin's lies, they certainly don't represent most americans or the majority of posters and the hosts of this site. I wish you a better tomorrow, and I hope that soon we can all go in peace.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Iraq has made wonderful progress.
    You got a link for that?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#76)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    And you still have provided no strategy on how to win. I am starting to think you don't want us to.
    Win what? If you want to stop wasting lives and money you can start by getting out of Iraq. Pronto. Let them make some more "wonderful progress" without any more of it blowing up in our kids faces. Give it up, Jim. If Walter "Freedom Fries" Jones can wake up and smell the quagmire you can too!

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#77)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    PPJ,
    roy - Distance yourself from me? So what is the difference between you and the rest of the Left? I see none.
    I dare to disagree with Dubya about military strategy, so I must be a leftist. That coarse granularity isn't going to serve you well. But, at the risk of going off-topic, let me re-adjust... Down with Social Security. Up with parental notification abortion laws. Poor people should work harder. Invading Iraq was a mistake but we can't just cut and run now.
    London was hit by terrorist attacks today in a continuing battle in something, for lack of a better description, we have called the War On Terror.
    There's your granularity problem again. 9/11 and 7/7 and Iraq and Afghanistan are all related, but you can't just slap one label on the bunch and claim they're identical. Being aggresive in dealing with the Taliban and being aggresive in dealing with Saddam's dictatorship are two separate issues, one can be a good idea and the other bad even if we call them both part of the War on Terror.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#78)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    I am sorry, did PPJ say something? I was too busy reading all those reports about AQ was responsible for attacking us spain and london and trying to figure out if we had found Osama in Iraq. 130,000 troops in the wrong country.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#79)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    roy - Good points, and I'll ignore the social stuff. You know I am a social liberal and I think we would agree on many issues. But not the WOT strategy. The clearest thing I see is that all of the terrorists cooperate in a very loose way. That restricts their ability to do harm, but it also makes it difficult to identify and kill them. But the connection is there:
    Conveniently, such analyses ignore statements like this one from Thomas Kean, chairman of the 9/11 Commission. "There was no question in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda." Hard to believe reporters just missed it--he made the comments at the press conference held to release the commission's final report. And that report detailed several "friendly contacts" between Iraq and al Qaeda, and concluded only that there was no proof of Iraqi involvement in al Qaeda terrorist attacks against American interests. Details, details.
    Link to quote. And then we have this 1998 indictment with chilling details.
    The 1998 indictment said: "Al Qaeda also forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezbollah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States. In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq."
    So they may not be joined at the hip, but they are joined at the elbow. Think about it.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#80)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    kdog,
    ...loosing a loved one by cluster bomb or suicide bomb makes little difference...
    Or losing a loved one to a car crash, or to disease, or to a cop who mistakenly thinks your loved one is waving a gun around. It's always terrible, which is why simple body count isn't enough to tell right from wrong -- you have to look at more context.
    That's what I like about Benn's statement...he's saying dropping more bombs or deploying more troops isn't the answer. It won't prevent the next act of terror. I agree. Break the cycle of violence.
    I realized I did a bad thing and focused on one inflamatory detail of Benn's statement without addressing his larger point. That's usually a trick of the Right (OK, now I'm just trying to annoy PPJ), but in my case I was just peeved. If Benn or anybody else has a non-violent approach that will cut terrorism to an acceptable level, that's great. But "break the cycle of violence" and "disturb as few of the hornets as possible" are just vague feel-good phrases. Killing the terrorists at least has a common-sense appeal, and it has already done some good in Afghanistan. And a naive implementation of non-violence is dangerous in its own way. We let the Taliban do its thing in Afghanistan, and they still sheltered OBL and friends.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#81)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    well since ernesto can't provide a winning strategy, and bush can't provide a winning strategy, then Ernesto is just as qualified as bush to be president. Stop equating people who disagree with you or the current regime with terrorists. And please provide links to "Iraq has made wonderful progress."

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#82)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    ppj, can you find it within your heart to give condolences to our friends across the water on this of all occasions? Please?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#83)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    PPJ, It's nice to see you return to civility. As for your first quote...
    ...and concluded only that there was no proof of Iraqi involvement in al Qaeda terrorist attacks against American interests.
    And yet that's exactly the kind of involvement Bush would have us believe exists. What I called your "granularity problem" is one of his verbal tricks to salvage support for the occupation. For your second...
    ...and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq
    When we invaded, Saddam had no WMD. The weapon development effort was either ineffective or working on weapons Iraq was actually allowed to have. Either way, it doesn't create a very good reason to invade. These are the sorts of Iraq / al Qaeda connections I called "trivial" above.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Sailor. Thanks for the kind words but a better epitaph would be keep up the pressure on the people who want to perpetuate this insanity. I'm not sure if everyone I know is okay in London but I can't say I'm too worried. London is a very big place. The death toll is less than the number of people than die on British roads in a week and we don't expect sympathy for our road traffic problems in particular. London will be back to normal in a week. AQ is no threat to our culture or society, unless we let it be. London (and many parts of the UK), have been through MUCH worse. Founded by the Romans almost 2000 years ago, burnt to the ground more than once, depopulated by plague more than once, civil war, military dictatorship; you name it, its happened here. London's attitude to this is latest test will be fek AQ, fek Bush and fek Blair, which is why Tony was sweating so much today. We don't tolerate failure very well. Sympathy for the individuals and families who have lost today is understandable but put it in perspective. AQ wants us in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bush wants us in Iraq and Afghanistan. The lunatics are running the asylum. The current strategy is for perpetual war. THIS is the threat to our culture and civilisation.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    jim
    Let me remind you that I didn't fly any airplanes into buildings full of helpless people.
    But you do support dropping napalm on captive civilians (collective punishment), aggressive war and many other war crimes. All this is the direct antithesis of "Western Civilisation". roy,
    Poor people should work harder
    Personally I think rich people should work harder (and pay more taxes). A culture should be judged by the way it treats it's weakest members, not by how efficiently it concentrates wealth in the hands of the already wealthy but I am a socialist, so what do you expect? It is now 0445hrs UK time and even us evil socialists have to sleep. Nite nite, sleep tight.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#86)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Sailor - I have already spoken with my English friends. I don't divulge personal conversations. And I think my steadfast support of the war to punish and prevent these despicable acts says all that needs to be said in a public forum. Perhaps the shock of today will move you towards helping us. After all, sympathy without support is useless. As for:
    Stop equating people who disagree with you or the current regime with terrorists.
    "equating?" Me? How about this?
    Posted by Ernesto Del Mundo at May 21, 2005 10:40 PM “True, but the problem is that they are being represented to the world by a bunch of terrorists.” (Written By PPJ) That's our problem too, as US citizens, PPJ. The Neocons are every bit as bad as our former CIA asset Bin Laden......
    Any critical comments on that bit of equating? roy - You are taking only part of the statements. We have the contacts. We have the indictment. What else do you need? Do you think they had a formal treaty? Have you forgotten Saddam's attempted $2M dollar bribe of an inspector? I mean why bribe someone when you haven't done anything? And return to civility? You know, when someone calls me an idiot and then whines about "class...."

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    What jim? Going to nuke me?

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#88)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    FD - No, you're doing it to yourself.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#89)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    FD, it wasn't an 'epitaph', it will never be an epitaph. But it was a respectful requiem. I agree with your points, and I'm sure this site will address them in the future, but I didn't think this particular forum was the appropriate place to do so. Jim, stop for a minute and look at the headlines, and look at your posts. You're a better person than that. Do you really have to bait people today? Would you have insulted New Yorkers on 9/11? I'm not employing some stupid debating trick, I'm speaking from my heart.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    (cough) if I can toss a word in edgewise, I'd like to make some observations. (1) This thread is about an Al Qaeda attack on London...it has nothing to do with Iraq. They would have attacked regardless of the Iraq war, just as they did before the Iraq war (9/11, USS Cole, first WTC bombing...). Blaming it on Iraq is a red herring. (2) Regardless of whether the Iraq invasion was justified, it would be disastrous to pull out now. In this case Realpolitik coincides with the demands of honor: you can't afford to let the insurgents claim victory over the US, for that would greatly increase Al Qaeda's power and influence. Neither can you honorably leave the Iraqi people to die in a massive civil war, as you did in 1992. Both pragmatism and decency dictate that America must leave Iraq only once it is stable. It would be foolish and selfish to do otherwise. (3) England has a long history of being attacked by those who wish to intimidate her. None has ever succeeded. The goal of a terrorist is to intimidate civilians to the point that they pressure their government into conceding what the terrorist demands. I think Al Qaeda has just made a serious error by trying this tactic on England - it will backfire. Tally ho!

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Iraq has made wonderful progress.
    Hahahahahahaha.....hahaha....hahahah... No, really, Hahahaha....hahaha.hahaha You know, the day you rightwing cats head over to your beloved little pet project in imperialsm for a vacation or a rental property, then I'll buy your b.s. about what a wonderful, Disneyland like, fun paradise Iraq is.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#92)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Poor people should work harder.
    Spoken like a true rich brat who's never had to experience being working poor in his life. You want me to work harder? You better hope I'm not "working harder" in the service industry my friend..we working poor have a whole set of bodily fluids to use as "special ingredients" in your richie rich dinner, lol.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#93)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Conservatives want to have it both ways. If no attacks occur in the US or UK, then that only proves that the Bush/Blair strategy is working. If an attack does occur, then this proves why you need to support the Bush/Blair strategy.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    well said John Horse.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#96)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Sure, if Tony Blair had lost and Galloway had won, the argument would be that "soft on terror" means you get hit. AQ attacked NY, Madrid, London. US launched war in Afghanistan (correct decision) US subsequently abandons efforts to break the spine of AQ (remember "wanted, dead or alive") to remove Saddam. Didn't Bon Jovi have a song "Wanted, dead or alive" that lasted about 90 days on the pop charts? I see a striking similarity between this administration and Bon Jovi and that frightens me. Right now, the score as I see it is Osama 3 US 0. Which of course means that we are not winning the war on terror and frankly not putting much of a dent in it because of the failed WOT strategy. If we had committed 150,000 troops to the AFghan border to root out Osama the A*shole, we might have him in custody and a few of his wingnuts. We definitely would have crippled AQ and of course by this time, the inspectors would have long figured out that Saddam did not have ANY wmd.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#97)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    Sailor - Bait? Political points? Surely you jest. Read the very first comment by Ernesto in this thread. While you extend sympathy only, I extend support for the war against these killers, which is something real. BTW - You charged me with equating people who disagree with me the terrorists. I gave you an example and asked for a response. I see none. Here's amother from Ernesto:
    You are of basically the same mindset as a terrorist that you despise.
    Comment? GS - Excellent points. Here is map of 23 of the attacks by the terrorist.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    Sailor, points taken. Thanks again.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#99)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    insulting comment deleted. Commenter warned.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#100)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    Good grief Aaron, get a grip. Get some perspective. It was a horrible crime but I seriously doubt whether we will see bombings on every street corner. Some people call the right to "pontificate" free speech. (Speaking of pontification, you do a pretty good job of it yourself, if I do say so.) In a free society we try to take out disputes in the open using words instead of weapons. I'm sorry this disturbs your fragile eggshell mind. The worse thing we can do is to overreact. As my old friend George W says (code red sarcasm alert) be alert, not afraid.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    Aaron. My hometown did just get bombed. Thanks for reminding me, it might have slipped my mind. Just visited your site. Your last 6 logs were dated as follows June 01 2005 - 1 comment. April 06, 2005 - 3 comments. March 31, 2005 - 0 comments. March 29, 2005 - 0 comments. March 18, 2005 - 1 comment. March 10, 2005 - 1 comment. Not exactly DailyKos are we? And no sign of an email address anywhere, not even in your non existant profile. Come on, how about youe home phone number, you can send it to TL and ask nicely if they will pass it on. I can call you and we can arrange to meet and discuss politics. Blah blah blah indeed.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#102)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    I believe the bombings in London were barbaric and the people who did them should be hunted down and prosecuted. Having said that i want to know from our right wing friends why the London attacks are considered barbaric by all of us, but the killing of innocent women and children in Iraq by cluster munitions, air attacks, etc are considered by many to be "collateral damage". Inquiring minds what to know.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#103)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    I suppose you could start with intent-are we trying to kill civilians or get at our enemies, who are using them for cover. are we trying to limit casualties or indiscriminately kill civilians-I know your answer, mine would differ(why did we wait so long in Fallujah if the latter). you could go on to goals-what are the goals of the Jihadists/what are ours (are we attempting to add to Iraqi/world freedom/are they? I know the answer of the average poster here, Bush is Hitler/most of us are in the real world though). try to find a war where there have been no civilian casualties. you won't but that doesn't change the rightness of the cause if it is right (think WWII, would you have preferred a loss there to keep yourself pristine)

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#104)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    Ed exactly what is the exchange rate, i.e. how many civilians is it ok to kill in order to kill one terrorist.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#105)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    Aaron, My understanding is that many here, left and right, have put their "*sses on the line", at some point in their lives. You should pause before throwing that particular stone. As for names, "Roger" is my real name. Other than that, it is none of your business. JM knows how to get in touch with me, if there was some earthly reason to. If we all posted our email addresses, I imagine that the spam would be endless.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#106)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    are we trying to limit casualties or indiscriminately kill civilians
    Dropping cluster munitions on civilain areas.
    why did we wait so long in Fallujah if the latter
    Given this enabled most of the insurgents to leave why then did the US destroy 1/3 to 1/2 the city.
    you could go on to goals-what are the goals of the Jihadists/what are ours (are we attempting to add to Iraqi/world freedom/are they?
    So its ok to kill innocent women and children if our goals are good. Exactly what are our goals, given that the original reasons for going to war were lies?
    try to find a war where there have been no civilian casualties.
    thats not the issue is it? The Iraq war is not WWII. Although the right casts this as WWIII or IV depending on which nut case you read in order to dismiss all criticism

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#107)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#108)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    Aaron - Hmmm. So much nonsense, so little time. First, with all the nuts in this world a person would have to be silly to provide their identity on the Internet. I do use a moniker for all comments. That allows anyone to know who I am, and to disagree. It also allows anyone to see if I am consistent, and to demonstrate that I believe in my positions. Now to your charges:
    Maybe when your hometown gets bombed and people you love get mangled or killed, maybe then you'll have the courage to stand up in the open and take a stand and put yourself on the line.
    I spent 10 years in Naval Aviation, during the Cold War, and I have lost friends. It hurts. It hurts a lot. There is no plainer or better way of saying it. As to "stands," what do you mean? I state that I support the troops and the WOT. I think Bush’s strategy is good, and I think we should pursue it with great vigor. What is plainer than that? Do you not support the troops and not support the WOT? If not, you are not unique, unfortunately. And if you do not, don't you understand that those actions are viewed as a reason for the terrorists to keep fighting, keep hanging on, hoping that a political upheaval will let them win? And don't you understand that any extension of the war is causing people to be killed that otherwise would not be? You speak of shame? Sir, if my above assumptions about you are correct, I invite you to look in a mirror. As I noted in the beginning, I have done my turn. I have never considered myself "brave." But I always did my duty. I always took my turn. I always paid my price. I know what I did. How about you Aaraon? Have you taken your turn? And can you look in your heart of hearts and know that you wouldn't run? Tell me, Aaron. Isn't your condemnation of me a reflection of your concern about what you would do? Well let me tell you, Aaron. Only God knows the answer to that, and he will only tell you when the time comes. Good luck.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#109)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    SD writes:
    The Iraq war is not WWII. Although the right casts this as WWIII or IV depending on which nut case you read in order to dismiss all criticism
    This map looks pretty world wide to me. Link

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#110)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#111)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:01 PM EST
    PPJ - are you that dumb? Thats a rhetorical question

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#112)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:01 PM EST
    Christ on a crumb-heap, The Sun? And for tomorrow's link let us explore the contours of The Enquirer. But no surprise, actually, coming from someone who sees FOX's current prime demagogue, not to mention the former anchor of Inside Edition, as a serious journalist with something important to say.

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#113)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:01 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: London Transit System Attacks (none / 0) (#114)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:01 PM EST
    deleted

    London Transit System Attacks | 111 comments (111 topical)