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Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 10:05:51 AM EST
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A new report released by the military shows that the tactics used in the abuse of Abu Ghraib prisoners began at Guantanamo.

Interrogators at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, forced a stubborn detainee to wear women's underwear on his head, confronted him with snarling military working dogs and attached a leash to his chains, according to a newly released military investigation that shows the tactics were employed there months before military police used them on detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

The techniques, approved by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld for use in interrogating Mohamed Qahtani -- the alleged "20th hijacker" in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks -- were used at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002 as part of a special interrogation plan aimed at breaking down the silent detainee

....The report's findings are the strongest indication yet that the abusive practices seen in photographs at Abu Ghraib were not the invention of a small group of thrill-seeking military police officers. The report shows that they were used on Qahtani several months before the United States invaded Iraq.

The investigation also supports the idea that soldiers believed that placing hoods on detainees, forcing them to appear nude in front of women and sexually humiliating them were approved interrogation techniques for use on detainees.

Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL) issued a statement today (received by e-mail) stating :

“Many aspects of the report made public today are troubling as well. This is yet another report that fails to examine the decisions made by Administration officials related to torture policy. The report did not review the legality of abusive interrogation techniques that the Secretary of Defense explicitly approved. It did not address objections by the FBI – the government’s leading experts in conducting proper interrogations – that these techniques are unconstitutional and ineffective. Instead, the investigation engaged in circular reasoning – if an interrogation technique was approved by the Department of Defense, this report found such a technique does not constitute abuse. In other words, the Secretary of Defense decides what the law is.”

As Durbin says, the report fails to address the FBI’s objections to the policies explicitly approved by Secretary Rumsfeld. According to an FBI memo that has been publicly released, the FBI believes interrogation techniques that were approved by the Defense Secretary “are not permitted by the U.S. Constitution.”

According to another FBI memo, the FBI and the Defense Department had “differing views on the propriety of the harsher techniques.” The FBI also believes DOD’s interrogation techniques were “not effective or producing Intel that was reliable.”

At least 26 FBI agents complained about abuses that they witnessed at Guantanamo and 17 of these agents were complaining about “DOD approved interrogation techniques.”

In other words, the FBI was not complaining about the actions of bad apples or rogue soldiers. They were complaining about tactics that were approved by the Bush Administration.

Update: Armando at Daily Kos really speaks his mind about this. More reaction is available at Left Coaster and Balloon Juice.

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    Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo | 49 comments (49 topical)
    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#1)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    And where did Guantanamo begin? You can find out from The New England Journal of Public Policy [scroll down]. Alfred McCoy, Cruel Science: CIA Torture and U.S. Foreign Policy

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#2)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    I was right. Again. Sometimes I get bored with it. Gitmo was, as I suggested, the best parts of boot camp, fraternity hazing, and what was, I'm told, available for a substantial sum in the sweatier parts of the old Times Square. And this was what you've been howling about? The chickens have come out--or home to roost, or, um, the word is clear to any of the voters who actually cared. [name calling and personal insults deleted. Commenter warned.]

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, Fallujah and Al Qa'im, Shock and Awe, the Crusade for a New American Century (CNAC), the airbases to guard the pipelines, still undisclosed to the American public -- all are treason. These actions have had as their intention the INCREASE of world terrorism, the INCREASE of racism, the INCREASE of instability, and PROFIT on our soldier's blood. Sometimes Aubrey gets bored. He ought to pick up a rifle and serve in this war-for-profit, and then he wouldn't be so bored telling people lies about its purposes and realities. Creating martyrs, by the many tens of thousands, gives aid and comfort to our enemies. It is treason, quite beyond the war crime and the genocide.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#4)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    et al - They never had it so good. At least not as captives. No one beat them. No one shocked them. No one cut off their heads.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    et al - They never had it so good. At least not as captives. No one beat them. No one shocked them. No one cut off their heads.
    So that's your standard? Let's put that on our city halls, our courthouses, our dollar bills, our coins... "We don't beat prisoners and cut off their heads." Seriously, that's the best defense you can come up with? That's absolutely pathetic. We have laws that we agreed to about how to treat prisoners. That's what sets us apart from the petty dictators of the world. And remember when the White House was complaining about the treatment of an American soldier who was captured early on in the Iraq war, who was shown on TV by the Iraqis? Obviously, these things mean something to us. So don't go pretending they don't. Personally, I expect bad guys to act like bad guys. I expect better behavior from our government, our soldiers, and our contractors. If we're a great, exceptional nation, let's start acting like one! You may think you're being a good patriot by defending the Bush administration and the fruits of their bad governance... but really, you're only being a good patriot to the Bush admistration. They are not the United States. Do I really have to point that out?

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#6)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    So, web. Other than letting them go with a complimentary Semtex vest, what should we be doing with these guys? No torture. That was your complaint. Complaint resolved. Tough luck, innit?

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    no-just giving some perspective to the breathless Nazi/Pol Pot/Gulag claims made by the left in their efforts to defeat Bush even if it benefits the jihadists. the bad guys still act like bad guys-doing nothing is not a response. we are better than them-your blindness to their evil just makes that tough for you to see. there is no "nice" way to fight a war though.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#8)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    Now, it doesn't matter what kind of hyperventilating goes on here. What matters is what the American people believe. So while you may all pretend to agree with each other that this, too, is torture--a fallback position without acknowledging it--the problem is that no normal person would agree. You look bad trying to pass this off as torture. Normal people will think you're being silly, if they're charitable.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    no-just giving some perspective to the breathless Nazi/Pol Pot/Gulag claims made by the left in their efforts to defeat Bush even if it benefits the jihadists. the bad guys still act like bad guys-doing nothing is not a response. we are better than them-your blindness to their evil just makes that tough for you to see.
    Mr. Ed... such a lot of straw men you're knocking down with your blast of hot air! Nobody is saying that terrorists are nice guys. We're just saying that maybe we should follow our own damn rules, investigate cases where they've been broken, and not do things that ultimately weaken our country's position on the world... and not engage in moral relativism with this "we're not as bad as the Taliban/jihadists/terrorists" bullpucky.
    Now, it doesn't matter what kind of hyperventilating goes on here.
    If it doesn't matter, Dick A., than what are you doing here? Go have a conversation somewhere where it matters!
    What matters is what the American people believe.
    If that's the case, then what does this mean?
    Of the 489 people asked that specific question, 40 percent believed the Iraq war had made the United States safer -- down from 44 percent in the previous poll. The other 517 poll respondents were asked whether the Iraq war had made the world safer. Forty percent said it had, and 52 percent said it made the world less safe.
    Kind of sounds like the American people don't think we're going about this the right way. They don't hate America, they don't want the terrorists to win... quite the opposite. I think you owe them an apology. To end on a more positive note, I think we can all agree that this is really good news: Poll finds support for bin Laden falling

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    As a former soldier, had I been captured during my stint in Honduras, I would be outraged if I had to wear womens clothing, fellate another man, been stacked nude with other men, been chained and interrogated for 20 hours etc. Sooner or later this will be the standard for our POWs abroad, and Americans will be outraged.....

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    I always go back to WWII. we did bad things/civilians were killed/we were still the good guys. the problem is the left is so blinded today that it can't see that. I think that is closer to moral relativism than any suggestion you might offer regarding me. If WWII were today and the left carried the same attitude, we would deservedly lose because our conduct is inexcusable.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    DickA:
    Other than letting them go with a complimentary Semtex vest, what should we be doing with these guys? No torture. That was your complaint. Complaint resolved. Tough luck, innit?
    Again with the straw men. Here's Andrew Sullivan today. Andrew Sullivan is very much a war supporter... but he believes that what's gone on in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib is not doing us a bit of good.
    * interrogators "brought a military working dog into the interrogation room and directed it to growl, bark and show teeth" * some prisoners were restrained with "hand restraints connected directly to an eyebolt in the floor" * one interrogator "tied a leash to hand chains, led [the detainee] around the room through a series of dog tricks." * a prisoner was pinned down while a female interrogator straddled him * a prisoner was told he was gay and forced to dance with another male * one prisoner had his entire head duct-taped because he refused to stop "chanting passages from the Koran;" one had his Koran removed; another had an interrogator squat over his Koran on a table, while interrogating him.
    These aren't even the worst I've heard of... none of these people died, unlike one prisoner (at Abu Ghraib, I think) who was beaten up and then died from a blood clot. Maybe it's not "torture" in the sense of branding them with hot pokers -- and it's not torture in Bush's dictionary since he's rewriting the rules, but it's not far gone from it. Certainly, if one of OUR guys got treated that way, we'd be yelling quite loudly about it.
    I always go back to WWII.
    That's too bad. Did too much LSD in the 60s?
    we did bad things/civilians were killed/we were still the good guys. the problem is the left is so blinded today that it can't see that. I think that is closer to moral relativism than any suggestion you might offer regarding me. If WWII were today and the left carried the same attitude, we would deservedly lose because our conduct is inexcusable.
    Wah? Mr. Ed? Would you mind coming back when you can string words together into sentences approximating rational thought? In any case, I agree with the "our conduct is inexcusable" part.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    The right is in denial as usual and they are going through their normal tactics of comparing apples and watermellons, making strawmen arguments, and just plain denial. The fact that torture occured at Gitmo and AG is well documented with somewhere between 2o and 40 prisoners being killed. The CIA documented inappropiate behavior at Gitmo. This kind of denial is nothing new. They have to deny that torture occured in order to maintain their support of the war without having to endure any guilt. They dehumanize the other side. say the otherside is worse, or claim that the other side deserves what they get. This is the American way, this is the American history, this is how America has acted and will continue to act. This is because they believe with all their hearts in American Exceptionalism and believe in the propaganda that passes for American History in our schools. This all results in comments like those made by Paul harvey. For anyone who is interested I wrote a short piece that considered some of the similarities between the Sand Creek Massacre in Colorado in 1864 and Iraq. Its here If you do read it, i encourage you to read the comments also. So people like PPJ and RA have been sufficently brainwashed to believe in their innate superiority that they will never admit in a thousand years that the US has commited torture or war crimes. All empires and/or imperlistic governments have this as its basis. As long as the US remains solvent and well armed it will continue to force its will on the rest of the world in order to "protect its interests", i.e. oil, gas, etc. There are signs already of a force build up in South America. The question becomes what happens when the real energy crunch comes in a couple of years how far will the US go in using force to securing oil by force. Lord knows we don't do diplomacy anymore.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#15)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Watch out, Paul in LA is on his everyone-who-disagrees-is-a-racist kick again. Like I said before, there is a job for you profiling with the TSA avaliable.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#16)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    webmacher writes:
    one had his Koran removed;
    Wow. What will these evil guards do next? SD - Study a little history and you will discover that we had cases in WWII of US troops killing prisoners. It happened. But had we got ourselves all involved in a BS hand wringing fest nothing would have been accomplished except that the war would have been extended and Hitler would have had more time to kill more Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and other minorities. Because yes, even with our faults we are better than the other side. Why? Because we recognize our faults and try to fix them. The terrorists see their faults as virtues. Big difference.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#17)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    JL. So you'd have been outraged, huh? So would I. However, even on TL's board, being outraged does not equate to torture. People die of high school football practice, of fraternity hazing, of some of the more inventive ways of enjoying sex. Nobody's died of interrogation at Gitmo. Nobody's had anything cut off. As I say, the problem will be getting the American people to think that what pisses of JL is the same as a bad thing. Lots of luck.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Dick, my opinion matters, I read it in my journal. You can argue all you want about hazing, if this were americans being subjected to the same treatment, we would call for blood. And rightly so I might add. when saddam paraded our airmen on tv I was in full support of bombing the crap out of him in retaliation. I also supported that war. As a former soldier and I believe you and jim would agree, you would expect some hell to be paid for similar treatment. And you and i were playing so nice for 1.5 posts. I am so disappointed.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    wm-you seem to think yourself intelligent but the historical ignorance displayed is astounding. which part do you dispute-that we were the good guys in WWII or can you make an argument that the Nazis/Japanese were just opposing our imperialist policies? that we did bad things in WWII? we surely did/we bombed civilians, we dropped nukes, our soldiers killed surrenduring enemies(all things I am sure made of worthy of losing). under your warped values system, that means we should have lost because, damnit, we are better than that(do I get to stamp my foot while saying damnit?)

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    PPJ- thanks for proving my point Ed, you're an idiot. If you don't think there clear differences between WWII and Iraq as well as the times think geneva conventions then what can I say. You are beyond hope.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#21)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    JL. We do call for blood. Fraternities who kill somebody by hazing are usually closed, sometimes criminal action is taken. Coaches and schools carry large liability policies should some kid die of heat stroke--which happens. Nobody died of interrogation at Gitmo, although admittedly the sample is smaller. Compared to the way our people have been treated since the Germans in WW II who were okay--unless you were a Jew--this would be an improvement. Paraded? Makes me mad. It's not torture, though, and the discussion was about torture. Not about what makes you mad. But since there was no torture, we've had to fall back to what would upset you and hope others would not notice the difference. You guys have really screwed the pooch. By lying for partisan purposes.... Let me suggest you know you did, since, like JL, you have been backpedaling by redefining as fast as possible, rather than saying, wow, glad there isn't torture...by lying for partisan purposes on this issue, you have sold your credibility for a failed attempt at political advantage. Have you considered how you'll be received when real torture happens and you are calling for action? TL's folks? Liberals? Democrats? Nuts. Lying again. And the real issue goes unaddressed. That would be a tragedy. But you gave away your authority and credibility on purpose. There is a truth to the fable about the boy who cried wolf. There really is.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    PPJ has it about right tonight, enough said.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#23)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    SD - That was WWII, dude. Can't read, eh??

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    the morons have spoken

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    I are a moron because giant intellect not able to answer question?

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    RA: Cut and paste my quote that identifies it as torture. I have said that it is inhumane and inconsistent with how we expect our soldiers to be treated. Again, please refrain from lumping me into your lying pathetic patterns. May the fleas of a thousand camel infest your armpits.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#27)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    JL. The point is not whether you call it torture. People suffering from BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) have been known to say many silly things, and even knowingly lie. The point is that the left totally lost its credibility on this issue when it transpired they are trying to tell us this is "torture" in their view. If this is "torture", what are we to do next time we hear them complaining about it? Ignore them, of course, which would be too bad because they might be right.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Point is RA, and you are very elusive intentionally with your posts, is that this would be unacceptable treatment of our soldiers. Your seven years of HS did not go to waste though, as your vocabulary includes many big words such as credibility. Although I am not certain you understand the meaning as most of your posts are devoid of it, it is nice to see you use such big words.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#29)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    JL. I keep trying to tell you, you're BUS TID. "Unaccceptable"? Right. So? Still not torture. You have to look at this from the poitn of view of a lefty with real torture to complain about, say in two years. You've convinced your audience that you're a Big Fat Liar. You've convinced your audience you're such a partisan hack that you will lie like a rug about such things for partisan purposes, as you did in the first part of 2005, and busy people have no time to waste on you, because they want the truth and you have demonstrated asking you about it would be nuts. "Unacceptable" "Outrageous" Sure. Especially if made to somebody who's led a sheltered life. But normal people won't buy this crap, and, next time around will remember your efforts.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    RA so your claim is that there has been no torture at Gitmo and AG? So you don't consider beating prisoners to death torture? Exactly what would you consider torture. And of course these are the same guys who yell the loudest anyime something is done to one of our troops. Goose and gander and all that you hypocrite

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Attention apologists for torture and/or human rights violations who also yearn for the good old days of World War II... This item from Andrew Sullivan's blog may be of interest. [text deleted, please do not use comments to reprint large portions of works of others.]

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#32)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Soc. You used to be wrong but rational. That was one for two. No longer. We were talking about Gitmo. The report. The AG report tells us that one shift did some bad stuff and that was in the military investigation process before it became the left's wet dream--probably in several senses--with which to bash Bush. Not that you actually care, except if it's useful. You don't care about the twenty-two prisones at AG who were killed by terrorist mortars. I am not going to list all the information everybody knows, because you know it, too, about how the left's wild complaints are lies. I keep saying, for your own credibility, you ought to keep in mind that everybody knows better.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    to start with, the quote at least starts from the point where orwell recognized the difference between the good guys and the bad guys-I think that would be a stretch here(bush=hitler and all that). he was also talking about actual uniformed soldiers, a group not represented at Gitmo(I realize the conventional wisdom here is that terrorists should be treated even better-AS doesn't like to draw a distinction but the law does). lastly, there seems to be the impression that we are just "retaliating" against detainees. apparently, the quest for interrogation is just a smokescreen for our desire to torture?

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Shorter Richard Aubrey: I can't justify abuse of prisoners very effectively...so I will just write it off as Bush bashing.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#35)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Ernesto. How can you keep doing this to yourself? You cried torture. No torture. You now, quite transparently, insist that "abuse", which is not, by definition torture, is torture. Now, it doesn't matter that you know better. It ought to matter that everybody knows better, even the folks you're trying to convince.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Once again, the question is...would you accept the same type of treatment for our people? Yes or no?

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    I await your answer RA...and I said "abuse" in the sense that this includes all forms of abuse...what you would be legally defined as torture and what wouldn't...but let's recall that you make the very questionable claim that any type of treatment is acceptable to these prisoners, since they are not covered by the GC. Again, would you accept this type of degradation of our people, yes or no?

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#38)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Ernesto. You need a new truss? Moving the goalposts can hurt an old guy. We were talking about torture. Didn't turn out to be any, so now we're talking about "abuse" in such a vague way your definition doesn't make sense. Would I accept that sort of thing happenig to our people? 1. I don't even accept our enemies shooting at our people, so what I'd accept is probably not a useful datum. 2. Compared to what our people have suffered when captured by the Japanese, Chinese, North Koreans, Viet Cong, Somali militia, and Iraqis, this would be acceptable if it were the alternative (let's see if you can resist the temptation to quote me out of context). 3. What I think about it is only relevant in this: Normal people can tell the difference between this and the "torture" you so regret not having happened. Normal people will not accept you trying to tell them this is torture. When you are trying to tell people about real torture, they will not believe you, which would be too bad. But you did it to yourself(ves).

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    RA...Having attack dogs bite people and beating people to death are not torture? Seems you are the one in need of a truss here. I almost thought you could answer rationally...it appears not. Ed...when did I condone mistreatment of our troops? Now who is engaging in moral relativism? You have to accept one standard of treatment for prisoners...period. Or you have no ground to complain about what they do to us. It really is that simple.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    Richard A..... What matters is what the American people believe. Yes...and that is what the "left biased" news media tells them! However...I do agree that being forced to listen to rap music would be torture...LOL

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#41)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    You don't care about the twenty-two prisones at AG who were killed by terrorist mortars.
    RA You have become completely delusional or you are purposely telling lies. There were prisoners beaten to death at AG as well as in Afghanistan. The CIA claims that behavior at GITMO was unacceptable. Normally I get very angry when people accusing me of telling lies. But I'm noy going to take the bait because either you are delusional or purposely telling lies. Either way, you are a waste of time and a waste of carbon atoms. The right wingers such as yourself will believe that the US is innocent of everything and has never made done any of these things. Nothing wil change your mind. You could see it with your own eyes and you would deny it happened. So its useless talking to the likes of you. But when the blowback comes, and it will come, it will be people like you who will be responsible because you turned a blind eye to the truth and therefore allowed this to go on.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    web... Of the 489 people asked that specific question, 40 percent believed the Iraq war had made the United States safer -- down from 44 percent in the previous poll. ....... Kind of sounds like the American people don't think we're going about this the right way. Yeah...ya gotta love those polls. Especially when the 'average' American gets most of their news (info) from the left biased media! (Ie - explosions & death) No wonder they think the way they do. Try polling the average Muslim in the ME(who gets ALL his info from the local radical cleric or the very anti American news media) what he thinks of America! I'm betting 99.9% will tell you they don't like us. DUH!

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Jlvgnstn... if this were americans being subjected to the same treatment, we would call for blood. They are and we are! Not all the guys that were on that copter that went down last week died in the crash... but they are all dead now aren't they? If you think for one nanosecond that Americans are treated well you are a fool! No wait... I'm sure they must have been hauled away to a nice location... given 3 squares a day... given bibles to read & mats to pray on... games to play...etc..etc And..if that wasn't enough, I'm sure the 'less radical' arm of the muslim community is yelling at the catpors to make sure they treat the prisoners well.... provide them with lawyers... etc...etc. LMAO......!!!! wake up dude!

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Soccerdude.... The right wingers such as yourself will believe that the US is innocent of everything and has never made done any of these things. I don't think any of us believes the US is without fault at every turn. We are just not jumping up to condemn them at EVERY turn like the left is. Every single piece of bad (or even questionable) news is immediately taken as fact and used to bash Bush. It's wearing very thin. Most of us at least give our troops (government) the benefit of the doubt. Ernsto.... Again, would you accept this type of degradation of our people, yes or no? Of course I can't speak for everyone.... but I'm kinda certain that the Americans that had their heads cut off would have opted for being photographed naked & had barking dogs in their face if given the chance! What do you think?

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#45)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Soc. You can be offended if you want. It's a free country. We had been talking about Gitmo where, it was alleged, torture happened. It didn't, which you and JL and others tacitly acknowledge by talking about "unacceptable" and "outraged", in place of real torture. What happened at AG was regrettahle, but inevitable in large human operations where the participants are trying to kill each other. By comparison with some of our other prisoner issues, AG actually looks good. Compared with the ideal, of course, it is not perfect, which is the best you have. The AG offenses were being dealt with before you noticed. I keep saying: You really need to think about the result of trying to sell this stuff to normal people as if it's the thing of nightmares when it's applied to our loved ones, or what the Iraqis had to endure by the tens of thousands. You'll be seen as a desperate liar. Your comments that it might cause our guys to be treated poorly will founder on the wide-spread knowledge that our guys are always treated abominably. As you know. As you apparently have not figured out everybody else knows. What happens when there is real torture to warn about? Nobody will believe you because you have proven yourselves to be partisan liars of the most appalling transparency. Your lies are so blatant that they actually insult the intelligence of those toward whom they are directed. Your credibility, which might have been actually useful, has been expended on a foolish attempt to get Bush. Credibility is not quickly self-healing.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Shorter Richard Aubrey: Where no photos of torture exist...I will deny it; where photos of torture do exist...I will justify it.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Ed's done for today...way over his four comment a day limit. He was previously warned that all comments over that limit would be deleted and they have been.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    9/11 occurred before Iraq.
    Back to school and learn some history. we have been involved in the ME snce at least 1950. In 1953 we helped Britian overthrow the Democratic government in Iran because he wanted to Nationalize the oil and gas companies. Think of our one sided involvement and backing of Israel. Comparing iraq to germany - really pathetic and uninformed.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    It is no surprise that racists don't admit it. Until they do. They are COWARDS. They don't fight -- they just endorse the war crimes. And then, when they think they have the gun-hand, they pipe up: "Kill them all." And then they look around, to make sure their KKK fellows are there to support their bigotry. Because the thing they most fear is standing alone. Posted by jimcee: "PPJ has it about right tonight" Fellow internet brownshirts must stick together.

    Re: Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    Ed, You are really a one-trick pony aren't you? I'll say it again: the W.O.T. is NOT WW2. But it's really not surprising that the US hawks like you want to hark back to WW2, given that its pretty much the last time that American troops were involved in a war that wasn't morally questionable. Bush 1 rolled out the Saddam = Hitler analogy to drum up support for Gulf 1, and suprise, suprise, here's Ed rolling it out as a justification for the illegal occupation of Iraq. The problem, Ed, is that if you *really* want to start comparing our current situation to the early days of the 3rd Reich, you might find that the acts of Bush's administration over the past few years map pretty closely onto those of the National Socialists between 33 and 39. Beware of slippery slopes, my friend.

    Abu Graib Abuse Began at Guantanamo | 49 comments (49 topical)