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Bush Supporters

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Aug 16, 2005 at 06:35:53 AM EST
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by TChris

Anti-war protestors supporting Cindy Sheehan erected white crosses bearing the names of fallen soldiers at her Crawford campsite. An anti-Sheehan protestor drove his pickup truck through the crosses. So much for free speech in Crawford.

At about the time a prayer service was to begin at Sheehan's camp yesterday, a sheep farmer fired a shotgun into the air. He told the police he was preparing for a hunting season that begins Sept. 1.

Kenneth Jones of the Crawford city police said firing a gun in the countryside is commonplace, and it shouldn't surprise or frighten anyone. Hunting season's coming up and guns are part of the culture in Texas, Jones said.

"This is still redneck country," he said.

No kidding.

[Update: (TL): Crooks and Liars has the video to the Today Show segment on the destruction of the crosses.]

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    Bush Supporters | 78 comments (78 topical)
    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    An anti-Sheehan protestor drove his pickup truck through the crosses.
    That the right wing hates Cindy Sheehan so much that they would dishonor American war dead in such a way is despicable and beneath contempt. Anyone who tries to justify and spin such an act qualifies for despicable, too. Absolutely shameful.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#2)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    With regard to the pickup truck driving through the crosses: This just proves that the corollary to the oft-quoted refrain "boys will be boys" is "dumbasses will be dumbasses". Let's just be glad no one was hurt and hope that this will give Cindy reason to rethink her stance on the cluttering of public land with political statements. With regard to the neighbor who fired his shotgun into the air: Welcome to Texas, Cindy. People in Texas have the right to fire their shotguns on their private property, whether you like it or not. Was this perhaps meant as a warning of some sort? It may well have been. Perhaps the neighbor was warning you to stay off of his property, something you apparently have not been doing. Or perhaps it was meant as a warning that not everyone agrees with you about the war in Iraq or about your methods of making your position known. From the news reports coming out of California, that latter group includes the majority of your own family, which is not necessarily reason to change your stance, but you might want to give it some thought. I'm sure Oprah would be happy to have you on.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Justp-Not on his property. Dove shooting would have been in season if Sheenan et.al. were on his property. TL- As nasty as is may be, isn't mowing down all those crosses also free speech?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#4)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Squeaky, He fired the gun on his property. He has the right to do that. End of story.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    And the rest of us have the right to voice our outrage at the attempt to intimidate us. Loudly. That's the real end of the story, justpaul.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Cindy reason to rethink her stance on the cluttering of public land with political statements
    I'm surprised to hear you say this jpaul. Personally, I can think of few better uses of public land than making a political statement that is dear to your heart. It makes for a more open and robust democracy. Not to mention it is well within her rights. It's not fair to paint the whole right wing with the brush reserved for the morons behind this act of intimidation. I would hope the vast majority of conservatives support her right to protest peacefully, even if they disagree with her. Last I checked, it is still legal to speak freely and peacefully assemble in this country, at least until our govt. convinces the cowardly public that is "unsafe", then the sheep will give those rights away too.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#7)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Kdog, Even if you can't see the difference between free speech and clutering the countryside with over 1000 crosses, it would seem that there is at least one person in Texas who does. Whose to say who is right or wrong. As to whether this little display is within Cindy's "rights"; that would depend on whether a permit is required for this sort of thing and, if so, whether she has one. It may well be a case of littering under Texas law. As for her right to speak her mind: I never said she didn't have that right. I merely suggested that her family's position might be of interest to her. Finally, please post your full address here so that those who oppose your position, on anything, can come and protest you outside your house, and clutter your neighborhood with signs and other paraphenalia, so that we can all bask in your willingness to entertain the freedom of speech of others.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    justp- You said:
    his shots were warning for the protesters to stay off his property, something you apparently have not been doing.
    They are not, and were not, on his property. If they were on his property dove hunting season would have started early this year (Aug instead of Sept.). NBC is on his property and paying $ for it.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    All's fair in love and war. And if this moron should find his truck in flames some day, I'm sure the Dixie Chickenhawks will be in the front of the line to condemn the anti war movement for "upping the ante". So much for open debate. Next stop, Civil War.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    jpaul..If I were an elected official, my address would be relevant...I don't make policy. The street in front of my crib is public property, I might be annoyed if a couple hundred people camped out, but I'd respect their right to do it. In fact, I'd probably get a kick out of it before I got annoyed...I kind of like turmoil, unrest, and protest...I find it fascinating and moving. Freedom on the march. That's America, warts and all....isn't it awesome? If Sheehan planted crosses where they don't belong (though I can't see anyone objecting to a makeshift memorial to dead soldiers), the s.o.b. who mowed them down should have reported her for littering or trespassing, not taken the law into his own hands. It's all about intimidation and you know it. The faithful don't like people criticizing their hero, and rather than debating her, they chose to intimidate her. Nice bunch.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    here in my hometown crosses were put up near the Battleship memorial. It seemed like a joint effort from people on both sides of the war. The war has hit hard here in southeastern North Carolina. To think that people like Jpaul feel these crosses are "clutter" to public space is just horrid. We now see that being a Republican is much more important then being an American.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    You know, all this could be avoided if Bush would just go out and talk to the woman! I guess that solution is too easy though. As far as the neighbor shooting goes, I can guarantee you that if it was Cheney or Rove out there when the shots were fired, no one would be singing the free speech argument. It all so partisan. He shouldn't be shooting at her!

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#13)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Someone, somewhere suggested that we use the term "pro-peace" instead of "anti-war." I like that, taking a page from the right's own book, changing the terminology. Look what using "pro-life" instead of "anti-abortion" did.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    "Even if you can't see the difference between free speech and clutering the countryside with over 1000 crosses" Every highway I travel has white crosses on it. Dedicated to deaths due to drunk drivers. Are soldiers in iraq worth less of a monument? Yeah, all those crosses (and stars and obelisks) in Arlington sure do clutter our nation's countryside. the rw strikes again, destroying property is free speech. Can't wait for that one to boomerang on you. Sheesh, what a maroon.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    justpaul, playing the postmodern card so beloved by the right, says: "Even if you can't see the difference between free speech and clutering the countryside with over 1000 crosses, it would seem that there is at least one person in Texas who does. Whose to say who is right or wrong." I do. The guy driving the pickup was wrong. The crosses were a non-violent political/cultural statement, meant to provoke both thought and an emotional response, in which no one had the potential to get hurt. The pickup truck was a violent political/cultural statement which was meant to destroy, emotionally provoke and antagonize - and which created a very real possibility that someone could get hurt. I also say your command of grammar is atrocious. It should be "Who's," not "Whose." If you worked harder to articulate your thoughts maybe you wouldn't get so easily confused by the difference between right and wrong. (I'll pass over "clutering" as just a typo; "whose" was no typo and we both know it.)

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#16)
    by SeeEmDee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Here on the East Coast, I see plenty of roadside shrines where people and even animals have been killed in accidents. These shrines are generally right beside the road, making them 'public property' yet I have never seen one torn up. Does this now mean it's 'open season' (were I the sick sort who'd enjoy doing so) on those as well? Or is the only determining factor a political one?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#17)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Didn't they used to shoot sheep farmers out there in Texas? Just asking.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#19)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    The driver of that truck pretty much exemplifies the character of the Republican party today and sadly, it seems, much of the South in general. Condemn, destroy that which is different, that which you don't immediately recognize or understand.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Kos has a story about Hillary refusing to see the Gold Star Mothers. Strange we have not heard about it here yet. justpaul, PPJ, Jimcce, et.al.: Have you been asleep at the wheel on this or what?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#21)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Isn't it odd how the wingnut mind works. First they are so supportive of a parents rights they hold extraordinary sessions in congress and the president is willing to drop everything and interrupt his vacation and fly to DC to sign a special bill to help them have their grievances heard. Remember Terri! Now listen to what the wingnuts are saying and doing. You wingnuts have no ethics ar sense of honor it's all politics all the time Preznet and Party above all. Youv'e been outed you two bit fakers. I truly believe the road to Hell is paved with repiglican spinmasters souls. God bless our fallen Soldiers and their Gold Star parents no matter their politics. All true American patriots stand by Cindy Sheenan in her Greif and her cause.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#30)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Just Paul If I remember right it was quite popular in the twenties to describe lynchings as "Boys being boys" or "Dumbasses will be Justpauls". You are sick to suggest This woman should rethink her position because some dumbass put live an limb at risk as he defiled a heart felt tribute to American soldiers lost in battle! You an he should tried for treason! Ed Beckmann Disabled Viet Vet.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    As to whether this little display is within Cindy's "rights"; that would depend on whether a permit is required for this sort of thing and, if so, whether she has one. It may well be a case of littering under Texas law.
    As I said in my original post, anyone who tries to justify and spin such a disgraceful act qualifies for despicable, too. What the hell is the matter with you, dude? These were crosses honoring dead soldiers, whom I suspect were politically on both the "left" and the "right." Can't you put aside your partisanship long enough to see that dishonoring dead people is not an acceptable political statement?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Crawford, Texas, Aug 16 (Reuters) - A pickup truck ran over wooden crosses erected at anti-war protester Cindy Sheehan's campsite on Monday night, in the latest sign of tension over the peace vigil outside vacationing President George W. Bush's Texas ranch. Larry Northern, 46, of nearby Waco, Texas, was arrested and charged with criminal mischief in connection with the incident, Crawford Police Chief Donnie Tidmore said.
    Maybe Mr. Northern could be charged with an act of terrorism under the Patriot Act . . .

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Just found this news story with a photo of Mr. Northern: Complaint Filed After Driver Crushes Crosses At Anti-War Protest Site

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Just as a correction, Sailor. There are, in fact, *no* crosses in Arlington National Cemetary, nor are there Stars of David, or crescents. All the headstones in Arlington are obelisks, the conventional rectangle with the rounded top. You are, perhaps, thinking of Flanders Field in Belgium, which is as you describe.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Mr. Northern: spokesman for compassionate conservatism.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#26)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    justpaul:
    Let's just be glad no one was hurt and hope that this will give Cindy reason to rethink her stance on the cluttering of public land with political statements.
    Glad to see the trolls are reacting in predictably idiotic fashion. Cindy Sheehan has simply sat in a ditch, prayed a bit, talked to everyone who came by, and now set up some crosses. And this has brought out the strongest feelings in people, from mothers' grief to the mean-spiritedness of the rancher who trampled those crosses, or justpaul here who justifies him, who are enraged because they cannot abide the thought that they are quite simply wrong. About pretty much everything. Make no mistake: When the trolls spew venom, it's because in their minds, their ideology, and the nice warm smug feeling that comes with it, is all that matters to them. Iraqi deaths? Collateral damage. American soldiers' deaths? They signed up for it. Grieving mothers? Opportunists. The trolls have an excuse for everything. They desperately need one, lest their wretched little egos suffer.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Glad to see the trolls are reacting in predictably idiotic fashion.
    These aren't trolls: these are compassionate conservatives. The heartland is speaking to us. Some do it by posting here; others fire shotguns and leave us to "figure it out" for ourselves; others demolish memorials. They are the public relations arm of the Republican party. Bush himself stated that he needed to get on with his life. Now that's compassionate conservatism in action.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#28)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    nolo - No, that was mostly WY and MT, with some in OR, NM and UT. Squeaky - Thanks for the help. I have been busy working on the palatial retirement compound, catfish pond and BBQ Stand (Fresh Vegetables on Wednesday). Of course Hillary's position on the military is well known. Maybe no one thought it news. BTW - How much is NBC paying him? Maybe I can import some demonstrators and then rent out some pasture to the media. Just as long as they don't start milking the bulls... or is that shooting the bull. And are the rest paying him, or subleasing. Maybe we need an attorney to contact him and offer some help. Et al – It occurs to me that if the crosses are erected on public land, then our pickup posse had as much right to tear them down as they did putting them up. His choice of destruction may have been ill conceived. BTW – I am sure all of you will be in support of crosses, Jesus crèches, etc., to be erected on all courthouse laws through the US come Christmas. Not to mention, of course, privately funded monuments of the Ten Commandments and prayer’s before school conducted on the school lawn. BTW – Many states have laws against private roadside shrines, as to why, I’ve never understood.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    "His choice of destruction may have been ill conceived." "May?" One more example of rightwing postmodern flipflopping. Let's get back to reality. It was the wrong thing to do. He has been charged. As for the rest of your post, it's completely off the topic, which is what happend down in Crawford yesterday. I guess a short attention span is all of a piece with your postmodern relativism, An anxious compulsion to change the subject correlates quite well with the right's inability to decisively recognize when an action is wrong.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#31)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Right on, Tristero! This Larry Northern character's action represents the worst of America. I wonder if his pickup truck bears a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker? :-)

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#32)
    by LorettaNall on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Asked if there was an underlying message to the shots, which he fired harmlessly into the air, Mattlage told a reporter, "Figure it out for yourself."
    If there were pro-Bush rally participants camping out across from my home and I dared fire a gun in the air and then made the above statement to the media...what do you think would happen to me?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Et al – It occurs to me that if the crosses are erected on public land, then our pickup posse had as much right to tear them down as they did putting them up. His choice of destruction may have been ill conceived.
    Not much to debate here about the statement above. You are one sick dude.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#34)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Triestero – “may” You know, we can’t be too judgmental. All things have equal moral value, eh? I mean Muslim radicals are just like the Christian Right… Now where did I hear that? And I am glad to know you have learned a new word. Use it 10 times and get a gold star. Ed B writes:
    You are sick to suggest This woman should rethink her position because some dumbass put live an limb at risk as he defiled a heart felt tribute to American soldiers lost in battle!
    Do you really believe that? How about actions speaking louder than words? Lab – Glad to know that you are for free speech. Just as long as you don’t disagree with the speech.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#35)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Nice to see Jim jumping on yet another opportunity to defend the Christian Right. All Cool Hand Luke may have put it, "them Bosses need all the help they can get." As for "actions speaking louder than words," yes, Northern's actions spoke loudly. They said: "Greetings. I'm a bigoted dumbass."

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#36)
    by aahpat on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Two incidents of violence and our great president has not yet come out and denounced violence as a form of expression. Why am I not surprised?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#37)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Not only were the crosses run down, so were several American flags. I guess flag desecration is OK as long as it's not a Republican American flag.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#38)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Funny, FoxNews thought the shotgun firing was due to "protest fatigue" so the guy really did nothing wrong, it is the protestors that are making his life miserable.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Lab – Glad to know that you are for free speech. Just as long as you don’t disagree with the speech.
    Your defense of the running down of a line of crosses that were honoring our Iraq war dead as "free speech" is sickening to me. You are one of the most disturbed people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting on a message board. I know that your only purpose here is to troll for reactions from the "libruls," as some sort of masturbatory pleasure, but you really should be ashamed of what you are saying.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#40)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    He fired the gun on his property. He has the right to do that. End of story.
    None of us are disputing his rights. He has the right to walk by waving a Nazi flag and shout that she should go protest in a gas chamber. I disagree with you that having the right to do something automatically makes it good and justifiable.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#41)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Hey, here's a thought experiment for everyone. What if there was a pro-war rally right by Bush's "ranch" (placed in quotes because this ranch raises no livestock and the proprietor is too chickensh*t to ride a horse) and a bunch of men of Arab descent showed up and fired guns into the air? What word do you think these same wingnuts would use to describe the act? Do you think it might start with a 'T'? Discuss.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Posted by aahpat at August 16, 2005 01:31 PM Two incidents of violence and our great president has not yet come out and denounced violence as a form of expression. Why am I not surprised?
    Interesting point. I suspect that Bush's handlers have advised him to not say anything about what is going on in the hope that the whole issue will just fade away -- the faster, the better as far as PR is concerned. That plus Bush's new policy concering the relatives who have lost loved ones in his war: You get one, pre-packaged response from him; beyond that, you are just own your own . . . too bad, so sad, get lost . . . Compassionate conservatism at its finest.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#43)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM EST
    Jlvngstn: Nice. Here's the lead paragraph from FOX's "coverage": "As President Bush's neighbors seek relief from protesters by way of the county commission, one local resident took matters into his own hands and now has been charged with criminal mischief." Their "article," though, while mostly a crock, does include part of a wonderful letter written by John Edwards' wife. I highly reccomend the entire letter to anyone whose idea of an argument goes beyond "This is Texas." scar: Well put. The answer is obvious.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    I guess flag desecration is OK as long as it's not a Republican American flag.
    Lucky for the knucklehead in question our so-called leaders haven't passed that flag burning amendment yet. He could have been the first prosecution!

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#45)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    justpaul said Let's just be glad no one was hurt and hope that this will give Cindy reason to rethink her stance on the cluttering of public land with political statements. Our public AND private lands are cluttered with political statements in the form of advertising. as a "free market" consumer CAPITALIST behemoth of a nation, advertising product is much more political than the LARGELY PERSONAL appeal that Sheehan is making to Bush. Corporations have much more control of the levers of power in this nation than the average citizen does, largely because of the corrupting influence of big cash. Sheehan's actions are only becoming highly charged politically because Bush, who has never given me any reason to believe he has any level of emotional or intellectual maturity, is trying to ignore her. A real man, with just a quarter of a brain and a tenth of a heart, would know how to deal with this situation as an evolved adult. Unfortunately, old Babs Bush doesn't seem to have done much of anything to raise these boys -- if she had, i'd refer to them as men.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    why is the other side doesn't mind biching about athiests wanting to dismantle certain public references to a christian God, but when anti war protesters erect them- and they are run over, no one seems to notice? just a thought!

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    If Bush believes in this crusade as much as he claims, he would have no problem meeting with Sheehan again, giving his condolences and explaining his ever-murky position on this war eye to eye, human being to human being. If he truly believed the cause to be just this would be no problem for him. I think he fears his eyes would betray him, and he would be exposed as utterly full of dung to the 40% of the people who still buy his rhetoric. A second meeting would be highly scrutinized and publicized, unlike the first photo-op meeting. Once again, he is exposed as a coward.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#48)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    BillieJo, I guess the same reason many on the other "other side" who disparage and deride religous folks don't seem to notice the big cross hanging around Sheehan's neck. just a thought!

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Posted by BillieJo at August 16, 2005 02:29 PM why is the other side doesn't mind biching about athiests wanting to dismantle certain public references to a christian God, but when anti war protesters erect them- and they are run over, no one seems to notice? just a thought!
    The short answer: Because they are Republican hypocrits.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Sarcastic how utterly sarcastic of you!

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    honestly I didn't think that any of you would even try and answer the question so simply! lol it's about time the media follows the public as they catch up with these bastards and protest. anyone who defaces a memorial- makeshift or not, to the fallen soldiers ought to be fed to the insugents as a peace offering.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    My pleasure, BillieJo. Hypocrites are in an unfortunate aboundance on both sides.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Posted by sarcastic unnamed one: I guess the same reason many on the other "other side" who disparage and deride religous folks don't seem to notice the big cross hanging around Sheehan's neck.
    That is probably because of the difference between Cindy Sheehan's form of Christianity and that of the wacko right wing: As far as I know, Cindy hasn't started trying to call for the deaths of homosexuals, the subjugation of women, more war, and less science than say, Bush’s religion has. Just a thought.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#54)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    er...abundance And, Lab, I agree with you. Not all religious folks - or folks of any group (like the aforementioned "other side") - can or should be tarred with the same broad brush. Although I would suggest that those who believe the intent of the folks who erected the crosses was purely "honoring our Iraq war dead" are being somewhat disengenuous.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    And, Lab, I agree with you. Not all religious folks - or folks of any group (like the aforementioned "other side") - can or should be tarred with the same broad brush. Although I would suggest that those who believe the intent of the folks who erected the crosses was purely "honoring our Iraq war dead" are being somewhat disengenuous.
    Well, there are people who call themselves “Christians” who are, in my opinion, anything but Christ-like, but that is the topic for another thread. I’m not really sure what point you are trying to make here, but I hardly see how the planting of crosses with the name of the Iraq war dead can be labeled as “disingenuous,” i.e., “deceitful,” “dishonest,” or “untruthful.” I’m sure that Cindy and all of the others there who put up those crosses were quite sincere about why they were doing so.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Although I would suggest that those who believe the intent of the folks who erected the crosses was purely "honoring our Iraq war dead" are being somewhat disengenuous.
    it's disengenuous to assume who believes they need to question the intent of a makeshift war memorial, that's disengenuous. of course it's there to draw attention to the dead soldiers and the people standing by the crosses and the ranch. has anyone asked her for the results of her latest pap smear to further verify her intent?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Maybe the truck guy was part of the vast evil Texan Jewish conspiracy, he did run over crosses, didn't he? Or maybe he is one of those Moslem who slipped in through commie Mexico, he looked sorta arab. It becomes apparent that loaded symbols reveal their thinness here. Some of the time we can all agree on things with people who in a different context would be on the other side of the fence. Common ground...Hopeful, no?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#58)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Without question the crosses do honor the war dead. I'm suggesting that the intent of those who erected the crosses was not purely to honor them, but also as a political statement. The guy who drove a truck through them was making his own political statement, albiet in a particuarly cretinous way. Of course, the only people who know their intent for sure are the people who put the crosses up. Who knows, perhaps their intent was purely to honor, if so, I withdraw my comment, however the result is that the crosses are being viewed as a political statement.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Knocking down crosses with an automobile is also, of course, a direct attack on the Christian religion. I didn't expect any of the fake Christian rightists to object, but across America the reaction will be in those terms as well as in the shock at DESECRATION of a war memorial. These crosses, btw, are not new. They are the world-famous 'Arlington West' crosses, which have, every Sunday since the illegal invasion got soldiers killed for corporate profits, been placed with great reverence and care to the north of the Santa Monica Pier on the expanse of sand -- and honored by a range of loving and loyal Americans. Knocking them down like meaningless pickets is EXACTLY what Bush has been doing. This act is a mirror of Bush's own hatred and disregard of the troops. He needs to get on with his life. And the trolls here show no regard for symbols or soldiers. Both Bush and the trolls are politics-for-power-perverts, and nothing more.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#60)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    As Eve Arden so astutely mispoke to teenagers in the film version of GREASE: "If you can't be an athlete, then be an athletic supporter." If the strap fits (hell, even if it doesn't), the Bush know-nothings will wear it. And proudly too, which is all the more disturbing in this case.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#61)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Oh yeah, one more thing BillieJo. As one who believes in a creator, and lives in LA County where the cross has been removed from our county seal in response to a letter from the ACLU, I recognize that the crosses in Crawford are symbols of the war dead, and are not promoting Chritianity itself. Likewise I recognize the cross that used to be on our county seal was a symbol of our county's heritage as is everything else on the seal and not as promoting Christianity. Therefore, I accept the former and not the latter. Does that answer your question?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Hit post too soon. I accept that the crosses in Crawford are symbols of the war dead (and as a probable political statement) and are not promoting Christianity itself, and that the cross on our county seal was a symbol of our county's history, as is everything else on the seal, and not as promoting Christianity itself. Therefor I accept the use of crosses in the former, and don't accept the removal of the crosses in the latter.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    Were the crosses on private property? Is this being prosecuted like running over a "elect moe" poster or a "open house" sign? -C

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    From Fox News, "As President Bush's neighbors seek relief from protesters by way of the county commission, one local resident took matters into his own hands and now has been charged with criminal mischief." Jesus wept. The guy is from Waco, 20 miles south of Crawford. To call him a "local resident" is a stretch at best. Incidentally, there are crosses displayed in Waco (albeit not the Arlington West crosses) ALL THE TIME at the planned parenthood protests. I do not think this man has chained a pipe to his truck and run those crosses down. I guess only out of town crosses are unsightly.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Oh, I see. So use of the cross to memorialize the graves of the dead, a Christian tradition, doesn't refer to Christianity. So it's OK to drive over crosses that memorialize the dead. It's also OK to drive over American flags, because flags flown to memorialize the dead by the mother of a MARINE, aren't really American flags. So, no desecration. Running over the flag, or crosses memorializing the dead -- just like Purple Heart bandaids, or gas guzzling roadhogs, or liars wrapped in the flag. It's all politics and someone else's kid dying, so scaroo them. IOKIYAR is not a new concept, but it is fun to see you stretch it once again around the actions of your chosen maniacs.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Gee, Crawford is in Falls county, formerly Waco county, along with a town named Waco, so that's a local resident. Why don't you try for an insanity defense.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Paul in LA, Not sure you are saying I need the insanity defense, or Johnson. I guess the thing I object to is Fox acting like this is just another Crawford resident justifiably annoyed with the protestors. I may be oversensitive on this point, but I find it misleading. I have been in shock somewhat since I read about it this morning. Here's a guy who drove 20 miles in the dead of night, attached pipes and chains to his truck in order to maximize the destruction, and ran down the crosses until he got a flat tire. The level of premeditation and malice involved shocks me, frankly. As to crosses or whatever, I find from the Texas Iconoclast that there were also stars of David and crescents. As to the flags, the counterprotestors organized by right-wing talk show host Mike Gallagher crossed the street and put them there (also from the Iconoclast). There's some irony here, I guess. Flag-wavers running down other flag-wavers flags. There was something like 800 crosses out there, 500 run down, and 100 destroyed beyond salvaging.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#68)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Sebrel writes:
    The guy is from Waco, 20 miles south of Crawford. To call him a "local resident" is a stretch at best.
    Now I know you are used to walking less than a block for a cup of coffee. But these folks drive more than 20 miles for a newspaper. It's called "red country." Lab writes:
    Your defense of the running down of a line of crosses that were honoring our Iraq war dead as "free speech" is sickening to me. You are one of the most disturbed people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting on a message board.
    Okay fine. Now tell us how you felt about these Moslems. I am waiting with baited breath for you to condemn them. Typical Left position. You are for free speech...... that agrees with you. BTW - Those who have died do not need monuments erected by those who did not support them. Now, displeasure that.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    PPJ- get off your holier than thou saw
    'those that did not support them.'
    Your oft repeated statement is empty and only reveals the chip on your shoulder. Even if you are not capable of compassion for those that have different political views, others may be; hard to imagine, well give it a try. Unless your definition of support means oral sex or something equally as narrow you are off base and sounding like some deprived wannabe crybaby.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#70)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    distantantennas, thanks for the info. I've been to Arlington and I should know better. RNC talking point:"Those who have died do not need monuments erected by those who did not support them." Yes, their Mom's never supported them, their friends never supported them, and the people who revere the dead and want the others to come home safely don't support them. Only those able to take advantage of bush's tax cuts support them. Only those chickenhawks who are willing to send other's children to die support them. And only those who can donate $25,000 are allowed to talk to the bicycling, brush clearing, all hat and no cattle ranch owning moron who sent them there.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Eh, ok, PPJ, you got me. Never in the four years my sister lived in Waco (pop ~ 100K) did she drive to Crawford (pop ~700) to buy a paper. Seems Waco is a city in Texas, a minor one, but a city nevertheless, and it has a lot of resources. I kind of extrapolated from her experience. My bad.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Sailor, The cross thing is the subject of an infamous piece of Godspam. Snopes has the poop on it. It's a tract that states the ACLU is trying to take veterans' religious markers away, and it comes with a picture of a European cemetary with rows of crosses. It's an image that creates a lot of confusion.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:27 PM EST
    That link, Jim, reported no where else, only reported by the rightwing press, is a pretty clearcut fake. You really are a desperate, sad, ridiculous, fool for rightwing nonsense. There are a surprising number of CHRISTIANS who oppose this illegal invasion. It's not just Muslims who think killing 130,000 civilians to install airbases is deserving of condemnation. My own sister, for instance. A lifelong R born-again, she has (finally) seen enough. She considers Bush a clear example of a false prophet; she considers the racism of you lot to be anti-Christian; and she has come to realize that MONEY, and not security, is Bush's and the R-party's ONLY concern in Iraq and the US. She bought a Prius. Beep-beep!

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#74)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:27 PM EST
    PIL - Fake? You mean like the promise by Air America to pay the money back? Now you are at the point where everyone is telling fibs but you. BTW - Take your complaint to WorldNetDaily.
    There are a surprising number of CHRISTIANS who oppose this illegal invasion.
    Please be careful around these people. They may have a cross in their pocket. Sebrel - Didn't mean to pick on you, just trying to make the point that distances mean different things in different places. Squeaky - Look it is my saw and I'll play it if I want to.... And I note that Lab hasn't answered the challenge. As for the substance of your comment. Note that I didn't say you don't have the right to do foolish things. sailor quotes me:
    "Those who have died do not need monuments erected by those who did not support them."
    You write:
    Only those able to take advantage of bush's tax cuts support them.
    Tell me you didn't? Oh, come on. Sailing and flying are expensive hobbies. What'd you buy with the refund?

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:27 PM EST
    PPJ= if you are determined to be annoyng, please, at least, stay in the realm of the un-ridicoulius. troll
    Some authorities consider the term "troll", when used to label a person, as being roughly equivalent to "riff-raff" or "scum" or any other term that dismisses a person as being unworthy of being heard for reasons that are not directly stated.
    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:28 PM EST
    Paul in LA - no prob, I live in Houston, where people drive 20 miles everyday. It's just I have been to Waco and environs. There are people in Waco, such as Fred Mattlage, who have a connection to Crawford. This Northern guy is a Waco resident, and while it's not at all far away, it's not local either. Basically in terms of the relevance of one community to another. Basta. Anyway the other thing about Waco that people should realize is the radical element there. I have already mentioned the anti-abortion people with their crosses. They also ran the Girl Scouts out of town over some connection with Planned Parenthood. Basically people who are very conservative and used to activism.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#77)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:28 PM EST
    Squeaky - Typical. I defend myself and you call me a troll. Sberel - The story is that the ACLU is trying to have the crosses removed from Arlington National Cemetery. I have no idea if it is true, or where the photo is from. (Actually that would make no difference.) And Waco is a college town, with a smallish population. This always seems to always attract a fair number of kooks. Witness Bolder.

    Re: Bush Supporters (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:28 PM EST
    PPJ & sailor, since the story is going around again in email, I am posting a link to the snopes rebuttal. The story is basically a complete fabrication. snopes As to the picture, the fact is that service members who get buried in national cememtaries get tombstone-shaped markers that have the religious symbol of their family's choice carved in. They cannot choose to have a cross-shaped monument. The picture that goes around with this email shows rows of cross-shaped monuments. It purports to relate to national cemetaries but contains an image from a different cemetary. That's confusing and misleading. Don't expect you to agree with that, but there you are.

    Bush Supporters | 78 comments (78 topical)