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'War. What is it good for?'

posted by Last Night in Little Rock

Thirty-five years ago this week, the song "War" by Edwin Starr first topped the charts. It stayed Number 1 for three weeks.

Coincidentally, during that same three weeks in 1970, I was preparing for my conscientious objector status hearing before my local Draft Board. I was in my first week of law school. That song helped steel my nerve to go before what was believed to be the most hostile in the state. In early September, I persuaded the Draft Board that a war of U.S. aggression in another country that involved no safety interest of the U.S. was morally objectionable and worthy of conscientious objector status.

It was the first "case" I ever won. When I left the hearing, "War" was playing on the car radio. I was physically and emotionally drained, and, to this day, I never uttered a bad word about those who served because they had no choice. One of those remarkable coincidences in life....

The more things change, the more they remain the same:

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all

War! huh good God
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

Ohhh? War! I despise
Because it means destruction?
Of innocent lives

War means tears
to thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
and lose their lives

I said - War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
War! It's an enemy to all mankind
The thought of war blows my mind

War has caused unrest in the younger generation
Induction then destruction-
Who wants to die?

Ohhh? War Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Uh-huh Yeah - Huh!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! It's got one friend, that's the undertaker
War has shattered many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled bitter and mean
Life is much to precious to spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life, it can only take it away

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
Peace Love and Understanding;
tell me, is there no place for them today?
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
You tell me
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Stand up and shout it.
Nothing!

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    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:53:27 AM EST
    cp – Disingenuous at best. The south attacked the Union, and the civil war was fought. The reason why the south fought was that it knew that slavery was going to be eliminated. Cause and effect. If the Union hadn’t responded, slavery would have continued. DA – Of course you haven’t. Only when you disagree with it, which is often. Edger He has had to ask me to not discuss by email his job hunting, through fear of the monitoring of his email. His best friend was just fired for emailing a job application out from his computer on an airforce network. Fighting for freedom of whose speech? Tell your brother to not be put out. It is not at all unusual for employers to demand that employees not use company equipment for private purposes. I would hope that you, and he, grow into an understanding of the concept. bruce from the windy city – An excellent point. You should note that I did not include it on my list. But, if the harm it did caused WWII, the fact remains that once the Nazi and Fascist regimes were launched; only war could stop them. Tess Tickle writes: Unfortunately...for the Native Americans. And for other peoples and nations after that. Hmmm, okay, I’ll just put you down as an “I don’t like America.” BTW – Do you live here? Enjoy our freedom, economic system, rule of law? If so, why do you remain? Why not trade places with one of the 48% of Mexicans that want to come here? (I like everyone to be happy.) Et al – The issue isn’t that war is good. It isn’t. The issue is that sometimes war is necessary. Many of you contend that you don’t like the invasion of Iraq because we hadn’t been attacked by Iraq. I personally think Iraq was involved through terrorist support pre 9/11 and after. But either way, we now know that WWII could probably been avoided had the French and English stood up to Hitler early on. Sometimes when matters more than how.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#39)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:54:03 AM EST
    OK, songwriting's out. What else can we find for Jim to do?

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:58:31 AM EST
    aw - Now it works. My apologies for the formatting problems above. cp – Disingenuous at best. The south attacked the Union, and the civil war was fought. The reason why the south fought was that it knew that slavery was going to be eliminated. Cause and effect. If the Union hadn’t responded, slavery would have continued. DA – Of course you haven’t. Only when you disagree with it, which is often. Edger writes:
    He has had to ask me to not discuss by email his job hunting, through fear of the monitoring of his email. His best friend was just fired for emailing a job application out from his computer on an airforce network. Fighting for freedom of whose speech?
    Tell your brother to not be put out. It is not at all unusual for employers to demand that employees not use company equipment for private purposes. I would hope that you, and he, grow into an understanding of the concept. bruce from the windy city – An excellent point. You should note that I did not include it on my list. But, if the harm it did caused WWII, the fact remains that once the Nazi and Fascist regimes were launched; only war could stop them. Tess Tickle writes:
    Unfortunately...for the Native Americans. And for other peoples and nations after that.
    Hmmm, okay, I’ll just put you down as an “I don’t like America.” BTW – Do you live here? Enjoy our freedom, economic system, rule of law? If so, why do you remain? Why not trade places with one of the 48% of Mexicans that want to come here? (I like everyone to be happy.) Et al – The issue isn’t that war is good. It isn’t. The issue is that sometimes war is necessary. Many of you contend that you don’t like the invasion of Iraq because we hadn’t been attacked by Iraq. I personally think Iraq was involved through terrorist support pre 9/11 and after. But either way, we now know that WWII could probably been avoided had the French and English stood up to Hitler early on. Sometimes when matters more than how.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#41)
    by aw on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:11:25 AM EST
    aw - Now it works. My apologies for the formatting problems above.
    Hey, I'm the only aw here and I haven't said anything yet.
    Established the US as a country.
    It would have been easier to wait them out like Canada. They didn't have to have a war.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 11:03:51 AM EST
    aw - Sorry, I was trying to saw ahhhhhh.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 11:53:54 AM EST
    edger - Why do you ask? Are you forming a band? So you understood, but just don't think it is proper for companies to not want their assests used for private purposes? Too bad. It would have look better if you didn't know.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:02:53 PM EST
    You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it.


    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:22:53 PM EST
    We are all in this together
    Every time we gotta go some place to fight, you fellas always give us a ride.


    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:50:05 PM EST
    "the war people wage against each other on a day-to-day basis." Oh, SURRRRRE. Don't ask what Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is about -- it was about McCartney's daughter's drawing. Asking artists about what their music means is yet another way of letting artists escape from answering those questions. If you bought that excuse of an excuse, you really are dumb.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:19:45 PM EST
    Dearest No Name - I seek to serve. And, I even post my moniker for all to see. Dearest No Name - We did not have a hands off policy. We were helping England, the USSR and China. The Lend Lease program was started in March 1941, almost nine full months before the Japanese attacked. And we were right to do so, just as we are right to be in Iraq today.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:04:41 PM EST
    Dearest No Name - Whatever. Facts are, the south attacked, the Union responded and the slaves were freed. Which was a good thing. What you postulate is that perhaps the slaves would have been freed in, say, 20 years. Somehow I think the slaves liked the first solution better. Edger – True story. All those nasties have just been one big misunderstanding. Uh huh. You guys like poetry, I’ll give you one true one. “Clay lies still, but blood's a rover; Breath's a ware that will not keep. Up, lad: when the journey's over There'll be time enough to sleep." A.E. Houseman - "Reveille"

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#55)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:22:55 AM EST
    cp – Disingenuous at best. The south attacked the Union, and the civil war was fought. The reason why the south fought was that it knew that slavery was going to be eliminated. Cause and effect. If the Union hadn’t responded, slavery would have continued.
    disingenous use of the term disingenous. the confederacy pre-emptively attacked fort sumter because they, like you, thought they could read minds. in their case, it was lincoln, who they "assumed" would try to get slavery made illegal. in your case, you "assume" what everyone else here is thinking, and what all liberals "really" mean. as is normally the case when one attempts to read another's mind, both of you were wrong. had the north not responded, there would today be three countries on the north american continent, not two. one might still be a slave owning country, or not. lincoln had no immediate plans to effect the legal end of slavery in the entire country, though he definitely had thoughts on the subject. does liberia ring a bell with you? lincoln, like many others, in the north and south, realized that slavery was already a dying institution, economically, if for no other reason. left to its own devices, the industrial revolution would have finally killed it off, as technology made slavery less viable for its primary purpose: unskilled labor on the large plantations of the south. but, you did support my point regarding "state's rights" as the confederacy's battle cry: the only "state's right" at issue was the right to own slaves. there is, however, one analogy to be drawn between the american civil war and the current war in iraq: as is the case in iraq today, most of those doing the fighting & dying for the confederate army were those with the least to gain by supporting it: they owned no slaves, were not well educated and therefore easily manipulated by their firebreathing "leaders", and were more likely to be from rural areas.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:30:00 AM EST
    "the war people wage against each other on a day-to-day basis." Oh, SURRRRRE.
    There actually is a war that people engage in daily, and we are all, here especially, including me, guilty of it at times... One of the drawbacks of text based debates, and one of the main reasons that we might seem to sometimes be having a "war" of words, is that we converse without the benefits of the visual cues and body language that we unconciously rely on face-to-face, and that make up a good portion, if not the major portion of human communication. Comments made with a friendly smile can be easily taken as sarcasm and attack without those cues, and it is incumbent upon us to choose words carefully and explain positions clearly; reasoned and supported. We will never lift ourselves through putting down others, or by inadvertently allowing that perception to occur. It's not what we say, but how we say it (inflection), and how it it is perceived, that detemines whether our message gets across the way we intend. - I never said you were pretty. - I never said you were pretty. - I never said you were pretty. - I never said you were pretty. -- edger 08/30/05 4:50 PM PST

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:30:22 AM EST
    Ahem... we're all in this together... always have been. --edger
    The Edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. --- Hunter Thompson


    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:30:57 AM EST
    Tell your brother to not be put out. It is not at all unusual for employers to demand that employees not use company equipment for private purposes. I would hope that you, and he, grow into an understanding of the concept.
    Oh... geez... thanks, Jim! I would never have considered such a blatantly obvious angle on it... ;) Ever had any music in your soul? --edger

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:31:30 AM EST
    Why do you ask? Are you forming a band?
    It was a natural question... You're the best free entertainment I've had in awhile... sort of a pinball machine that doesn't need quarters, you know? Thanks for being you!

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:35:41 AM EST
    SO....war, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing unless the positives (lives saved) can clearly outweigh the negatives (lives lost).

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:36:31 AM EST
    War is sometimes a necessary evil. The Col. Jessep quote from "A Few Good Men" was intended to kind of point that out. No matter how grotesque war is, it beats the alternative of some situations. For example, WWII when we were in that war, we maintained a hands off policy until Pearl Harbor was attacked. War when in defense of a nation beats the alternative, which is being attacked and having an enemy fighting in your back yard. So, preemptive war is what I'm talking about. If there is an extremely good chance that we are about to be attacked, then preemptive war is the right action. But how much doubt is too much doubt? We dont want to be attacked, but at the same time, we dont want to jump the gun and be the aggressors. That's what these ME terrorist pricks are trying to do to us. They're trying to attack us on the Down Low and then try to make us look like the aggressors when we counterstrike or launch a nearly certain preemptive strike. Their tactic is like the little brother tactic. Pick a fight and then say "Mommy he hit me". That's how they're trying to gain support and we have to be careful to not fall into their trap.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 06:08:07 AM EST
    All those nasties have just been one big misunderstanding. Uh huh.
    No, no, no... Jim! You miss my point entirely. It's also our responsibilty to read carefully to make our best effort to glean the intended meaning, my friend! Sometimes pure sophistry is the intention of the writer, and the words are chosen deliberatly, like a hot lance used on a boil.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:43:07 AM EST
    Boy, isn't that typical, a liberal trial lawyer using the law to his advantage to get out of serving his country. Good for you, you REALLY should be proud of that accomplishment, thats right FIGHT THE MAN. As a matter of fact war is good for a lot of things: securing our borders (note the lack of terrorists attacks on the continental U.S. since the beginning of fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq) It is also good for eliminating a brutal dictator who has killed countless numbers of his own citizens along with those of Iran and Kuwait. Thanks for being a typical liberal!

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#61)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:00:15 AM EST
    The metaphoric eagle is often used as a symbol of America. Some, in parts of the world, seem to think vulture is a more apt symbol. One soars toward ever new heights, the other scavenges from corpses what it can to survive. Both are powerful symbols that elicit deep and strong emotions. They seem to be opposites, when in reality they are perceptions from differing viewpoints. Fliers with only seemingly different purposes, they both try to live as successfully as they can. Both of them rely on their wings to get where they need or want to go. Both wings... the left wing, and the right. If the wings are war, the bird will plummet. Break one wing (the right, for example), or bind the left, and eagles or vultures will both fly in a circling tailspin, and die. If either wing is too weak or strong relative to the other, the result wil be the same. Only when both wings realize they need each other and work together can the eagle soar ever higher, or the vulture lumber across the sky seeking death. The wings have a common purpose - to keep the body flying. They also have a common challenge - together they must agree on their direction, or goal, and whether they are parts of an eagle, or of a vulture. The rest of the world welcomes eagles, but hates and kills vultures...

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#1)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    war what is good for? if a nation with ideals that are right and people understand what its about and you understand that your leaders will work to win and not make a big money deal, it may work. if it is what is called a just war. but what is the reason to fight for a government that could understand what war is and is not. we must all understand who bin laden is and who helped to make him and understand that people don't always want the same kind of world and really look at why.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#2)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    I know, Fred.... ......here's a quote from Mr. Starr himself:
    "Nobody really understood what we were talking about on that song," he continued. "It wasn't about Vietnam. It never once mentioned the war in Vietnam. It just so happened that, at the time, the war was going on, and the words just lent themselves to the occasion. Actually, we were talking about a war of people -- the war people wage against each other on a day-to-day basis. All the words are applicable to neighbors who fight with each other, you know, 'War, what is it good for?' That's what the song was about, at least for me."


    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    War Is our main defense against radical Moslem terrorists. Stopped the slaughter in Kosovo. Threw Saddam out of Kuwait. Eliminated the Soviets. Eliminated the Nazis, Fascists and imperialist Japan. Eliminated slavery in the US. Established the US as a country. Yes, what is war good for?

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#4)
    by Pete Guither on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Absolutely nothing. Say it again y'all

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Strangely, PPJ, I don't see a single war of choce started by the eventual winner on you list . . .

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    PPJ-And what is the war here doing to stop your endless blather?

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    Squeak – Actually nothing you can say will have that effect. Sorry old boy. rea – I would argue that WWII was a war of choice. FDR did everything he could do, short of peeing in Hitler’s beer, to get the German’s to take an overt action. Instead it was his support of China that brought Japan in. You could easily add Kosovo and Desert Storm. (Warning sentence fragments may be found in the next comment.) DA writes: Remember that in the Art of War, Sun Tzu stated that the greatest victories were those achieved by not fighting. Are you telling us old Sun Tzu would have whipped all those countries without war? If you are, let me respond now. Horse hockey. And please remember that the US is not always wrong.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    PPJ-Shows how effective war is.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#10)
    by DonS on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    It takes a real uptight winger to get all rattled about an optimismic thought against war. Vigilence, and a cold heart, is the eternal price of wingerhood.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Don-S - And it takes a real Leftie to pretend to not understand that sometimes war is the best option. Note the "pretend." Squeak - Thanks for agreeing. Frankly, I didn't think you had it in you.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#12)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Will the world ever forgive us for this atrocity? It's the last straw. The USA is no longer the lone world suerpower. Certainly not from an ethical standpoint.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    I had a family member who went thru the process about that time. At his physical the Dr found a heart murmur and declared him medically unable to serve. That murmur had never been detected before and hasn't been detected since. My personal opinion is that even the draft boards by that time were sick of seeing the young men from their community die.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Forget the droogy arguments, I just want to know what it is with the left that they are so darn obsessive about old TV commercial songs? I mean, hasn't anything happened worth of note or learning in the last 30 years. Ben Franklin: "For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise." -C

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#15)
    by dead dancer on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Eliminated slavery in the US.
    Sure it did.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#16)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    cliff, TV commercial songs? "War" wasn't a TV commercial song, except maybe until recently. (I tend not to watch TV or commercials these days so I wouldn't know.) But many composers, authors and poets throughout history have advocated against personal and national aggression so I'm not sure what your point is. I mean sheesh, it's not like the Carpenters riffing on a bank commercial (We've only Just Begun.)

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    cliff...BS still smells the same now as it did back in the '70s. So why would anyone's reaction to getting a whiff of it change?

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    personally I like Springsteen's cover of the song on the 3 disc live set.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    The only benefit this war could ever potentially have is if those who supported went and died in it, instead of getting a woody or making some money watching other people die in it.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#20)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    "Forget the droogy arguments, I just want to know what it is with the left that they are so darn obsessive about old TV commercial songs?" Yeah! Damn us! We love Fortunate Son, too, and that song clearly has no relevance anymore, either. We all know songs have an expiration date. That's why I threw away all my Johnny Cash CDs yesterday.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#21)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    I'm blown away by the idea that Last Night actually got C.O. status on strictly moral grounds, without membership in a recognized religious group. That must have required some spectacular argumentation.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Aw man, I love that song. I grew up with it and still enjoy it on oldies radio. War does suck but I think PPJ put it pretty well, so it is good for something although it is the worst way to make changes. If war is 'good for nuthin'' well then that just goes against the facts, just ask a death camp camp survivor and get back to us about that good for nothing part. Either way it's is a classic R&R song.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    I'm with Last Night on this one all the way - I've mentioned the song (Springsteen's version) several times on TalkLeft - Here for example. My personal favorites though continue to be Country Joe (listen here) and Arlo Guthrie. Country Joe:
    Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again. He's got himself in a terrible jam Way down yonder in Vietnam So put down your books and pick up a gun, We're gonna have a whole lotta fun. And it's one, two, three, What are we fighting for ? Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, Next stop is Vietnam. And it's five, six, seven, Open up the pearly gates, Well there ain't no time to wonder why Whoopee! we're all gonna die. Well, come on mothers throughout the land, Pack your boys off to Vietnam. Come on fathers, don't hesitate, Send 'em off before it's too late. Be the first one on your block To have your boy come home in a box.


    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    No, seriously, people, have you learned nothing or listened to nothing new since 1972? I mean, Kung Fu Fighting was great, but what about MIA, Love/Angel/Music/Baby, Tori Amos, Black Eye Peas, Chantal Kreviazuk, Foo Fighters (Old School!), Kaci Brown, Moorcheeba, Pink, etc, etc? Also, you know, you might try a toke of supply side economics. -C

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    The problem with using WWII as an example of war as a good solution is to forget about WWI. Without WWI and the resulting peace treaty at Versailles we never would have had to fight WWII. The Treaty of Versailles was one of the most vindictive and punitive measures ever imposed on a loser of a conflict. I guaranteed that Germany would harbor resentment of the western powers, shattered Germany economically, and imposed a political regime that was a complete break from it’s historical roots (would it had been so bad to allow the Germans keep Kaiser Wilhelm much as the Japanese kept Hirohito?) Likewise, WWI gave us the Soviet Union. As far as the Balkans, including Yugoslavia, that was bunch of countries divided up from the Austria/Hungary Empire without much regard as to traditional power structures that worked fairly well. And who else lost in WWI? Well the Mid East of course! It was divided up as spoils when the Ottoman Empire picked the wrong side. Were paying for that Imperialist venture since. WWI was a product of the inflexibility of alliances. Something Britain should have remembered the present day. Wars have a ripple effect that can last hundreds of years. Unfortunately most leaders only have a memory for the present, or only remember their country’s wounds of the past. Recommended reading: Barbara Tuchman’s “March of Folly” and “The Guns of August”. As far as the Civil war eliminating slavery, tell that to any African American who lived in the South during the Jim Crow era.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    War Is our main defense against radical Moslem terrorists. Oh dear god...you must be joking. Stopped the slaughter in Kosovo. Allowed/started the slaughter in Kosovo. Threw Saddam out of Kuwait. Got Saddam in Kuwait. Eliminated the Soviets. Another joke. Eliminated the Nazis, Fascists and imperialist Japan. Led to the creation of the nazi rule. Allowed the Nazis and the Japanese to create their reich/empire. Established the US as a country. Unfortunately...for the Native Americans. And for other peoples and nations after that. Yes, what is war good for? Hmmm...let's see...Death, destruction, terror and mayhem. Pain and suffering. Wasting money and resources. Creating more wars. Etc.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Eliminated the Nazis, Fascists... Eliminated slavery in the US.
    Just finished an email conversation with my brother... a civilian employee of a large defense contractor at Centcom in Qatar. He has had to ask me to not discuss by email his job hunting, through fear of the monitoring of his email. His best friend was just fired for emailing a job application out from his computer on an airforce network. Fighting for freedom of whose speech?
    Eliminated the Nazis, Fascists...??? Eliminated slavery in the US...???
    Sure...
    There's something happening here What it is ain't exactly clear There's a man with a gun over there Telling me I got to beware I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong --- Stephen Stills
    Enjoy your New World Order... sigh...

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#28)
    by Pete Guither on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    There was a time when it seemed that everyone was against war. They understood that there were times when you were forced into it, but those times were meant to be last resort, and not something to celebrate. Celebrate the bravery, yes, but not the war. They talked of the war to end war. Rarely did they talk of war as a thing to be desired. And yet, today, I find myself with friends who are uncomfortable when I say I am opposed to war. They got so swindled into supporting the war in Iraq during a shameful moment of post 9/11 p*ssing in their pants that they take any statement against war in general as a rebuke of their judgement. It's time to get the musicians singing us some lessons again.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Thanks, Pete... I've never had the feeling I was alone out here. But It's good to hear it anyway!

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#30)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    I am impressed with some who have the ability to take a term like war, which in the context of the post above clearly is about what the poster considers an immoral war of choice and conjoin this immoral war of choice with other wars of defense and of necessity. The sophistry required to pull of this trick here is quite akin to what devious politicians have achieved in selling this immoral war in Iraq by conflating it with who the actual enemy is in the current age. Indeed the similarity to the selling of the specious arguments for war with Iraq continue here. Repeat, repeat. Repeat. Silent soldiers on a silver screen Framed in fantasies and dragged in dream Unpaid actors of the mystery The mad director knows that freedom will not make you free And what’s this got to do with me I declare the war is over It’s over, it’s over Drums are drizzling on a grain of sand Fading rhythms of a fading land Prove your courage in the proud parade Trust your leaders where mistakes are almost never made And they’re afraid that I’m afraid I’m afraid the war is over It’s over, it’s over Angry artists painting angry signs Use their vision just to blind the blind Poisoned players of a grizzly game One is guilty and the other gets the point to blame Pardon me if I refrain I declare the war is over It’s over, it’s over So do your duty, boys, and join with pride Serve your country in her suicide Find the flags so you can wave goodbye But just before the end even treason might be worth a try This country is to young to die I declare the war is over It’s over, it’s over One-legged veterans will greet the dawn And they’re whistling marches as they mow the lawn And the gargoyles only sit and grieve The gypsy fortune teller told me that we’d been deceived You only are what you believe I believe the war is over It’s over, it’s over "War Is Over" Phil Ochs

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    And I dreamed I saw the bomber jet planes Riding shotgun in the sky Turning into butterflies Above our nation...
    Goodnight, all...

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    You know that something is going on around here That, surely, would stand the light of day... ... ... But you know the darkest hour is always before the dawn.

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Buffy Saint-Marie and Universal Soldier:
    He's five feet two and he's six feet four He fights with missiles and with spears He's all of 31 and he's only 17 He's been a soldier for a thousand years He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an athiest, a Jain, a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew and he knows he shouldn't kill and he knows he always will kill you for me my friend and me for you And he's fighting for Canada, he's fighting for France, he's fighting for the USA, and he's fighting for the Russians and he's fighting for Japan, and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way And he's fighting for Democracy and fighting for the Reds He says it's for the peace of all He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die and he never sees the writing on the walls But without him how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau Without him Caesar would have stood alone He's the one who gives his body as a weapon to a war and without him all this killing can't go on He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame His orders come from far away no more They come from him, and you, and me and brothers can't you see this is not the way we put an end to war.


    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    In WWII, we fought because we had to. BIn Laden is in Afghanistan, what are we doing in Iraq? Freedom in Iran requires a revolution. IRAN AZADI

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#36)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    well, your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore, they're already overcrowded, from your dirty little war. now jesus don't like killing, no matter what the reasons for, and your flag decal won't get you into heaven any more. john prine
    slavery wasn't ended in the u.s. until after the civil war, with the passage of the 13th amendment. lincoln was fighting to maintain the u.s. as a unified country, not to rid it of slavery. the confederacy, on the other hand, was fighting to maintain slavery, the only "state's right" that was at issue. while lincoln didn't think much of slavery, he wasn't about to start a war over it either. wwI, and the subsequent treaty of versailles, were the precursors of wwII. take out the french insistence on exacting reparations from germany, and hitler would have had little support from the german populace. one could well argue that the franco-prussian war of 1870-71 was the precursor of wwI, with the alsace-lorraine being the big prize. ppj, it's nice that you finally admitted that you blather on here, good for you!

    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    And you, of tender years, Can't know the fears that your elders grew by, And so please help them with your youth, They seek the truth before they can die. Teach your parents well, Their children's hell will slowly go by, And feed them on your dreams The one they picks, the one you'll know by.


    Re: 'War. What is it good for?' (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:57 PM EST
    A modern troubadour that I recently learned of is David Rovics. Folk music that speaks out against this war is being made and is as moving as some of the works from the Vietnam period.