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Political Ramifications of Katrina

By Jeralyn, Section Huricanes Katrina and Rita
Posted on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 10:32:37 AM EST
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Here's a transcript of conservative New York Times columnist David Brooks, Boston Globe columnist Tom Oliphant and Chicago Tribune columnist Clarence Page on the Jim Leher News Hour talking about Katrina and the political ramifications. Brooks' comments, considering how conservative he is, are particularly interesting. Some snippets:

Tom Oliphant:

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    Political Ramifications of Katrina | 36 comments (36 topical)
    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#1)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:08 PM EST
    There are at least three more shocks yet to some And shock #4, if we're lucky, will be a serious call for Bush's impeachment.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    Brooks is far from being one of my favorite commentators, but the article that he wrote some days ago in the NY times is pretty sobering. It's available through the archives portion of the Times and is entitled The Storm after the storm

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    9/11 was just as big a government failure as this. Why the different reaction from the pundits? Think about that one.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    Ernesto-The failures in 9/11 were hidden and appeared after the fact, here all is in plain sight. Perhaps the planning for 9/11 was better.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#5)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    I think the Republicans a pretty much f*cked over this; look for the ramifications in the November midterm. The trick will of course be playing this in a tasteful way; America will still be raw.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    From a 'christian' minister
    The pastor [Rev. Bill Shanks, pastor of New Covenant Fellowship of New Orleans] explains that for years he has warned people that unless Christians in New Orleans took a strong stand against such things as local abortion clinics, the yearly Mardi Gras celebrations, and the annual event known as "Southern Decadence" -- an annual six-day "gay pride" event scheduled to be hosted by the city this week -- God's judgment would be felt. “New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're going to start over again."
    LINK And you wonder where the "born again: Bush gets his views.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#7)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    I should add to my comment above that the Gulf coast was pretty d&mn red last federal election.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    The problem is that there are people - like Grover Norquist, Ken Mehlman, and Dick Cheney - who are only looking for a way to spin this in keeping with their plutocratic ideology. Brooks' words, astonishing though they are, actually contain the seeds of the plutocratic spin: "the Federal Government" let people down. Not Bush. Not the Bush Administration. Not Republican policies. But "the Federal Government." The spin will be that the government is useless, and therefore should not be relied on, and therefore (here comes the money shot) there's no point in continuing to count on the Federal government for protection from disaster. That is the same thing they've been saying since Reagan announced that "Government isn't the solution; government is the problem." That's the whole GOP strategy right there: defund important programs so they can't work, then announce that those programs are 'failures,' then end the programs altogether. People have already forgotten there was a time we assumed the federal government had a duty to fund job-training programs, used to give grants - not loans, but grants - for college education, used to fund community health and mental health programs, after-school programs, nutrition programs, special education programs. They've already forgotten there was a time when people in need had recourse. They've forgotten that's what government is supposed to do. A generation from now, people will also have forgotten the government used to be there for people who were in disaster areas, who lost everything. They will have forgotten that's what government is supposed to do. Oh, it's good that "even" conservatives like Brooks and Scarborough condemn the non-response to Katrina. But when they stop short of condemning the policies that caused that non-response, their criticism doesn't amount to anything.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#9)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    ...there's no point in continuing to count on the Federal government for protection from disaster.
    This is an important point you made, and I think its a correct one.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    "there's no point in continuing to count on the Federal government for protection from disaster." Grover Norquist is rejoicing. Over at NRO's "The Corner," from a reader's email to Jonah Goldberg: Katrina is going to make a lot of fence-sitters on gun control hop down. ...are going to note that, sometimes, you are on your own.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    9/11 was just as big a government failure as this. Why the different reaction from the pundits? The perception is that a government failure might have allowed 9/11 to happen; but once it happened, every agency mobilized to help. Here, the government failures came after the fact, with people suffering and dying after the storm had passed.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    New Orleans: A Geopolitical Prize ...By George Friedman / Stratfor / September 01, 2005 22 30 GMT Stratfor has been called "a private-quasi CIA" by Barron's, and cited by the mainstream media for its uncanny accuracy and ability to uncover the globe's best-kept secrets and predict world-changing events in ways that no one else can. During the Cold War, a macabre topic of discussion among bored graduate students who studied such things was this: If the Soviets could destroy one city with a large nuclear device, which would it be? The usual answers were Washington or New York. For me, the answer was simple: New Orleans. If the Mississippi River was shut to traffic, then the foundations of the economy would be shattered. The industrial minerals needed in the factories wouldn't come in, and the agricultural wealth wouldn't flow out. [...] Last Sunday, nature took out New Orleans almost as surely as a nuclear strike. Hurricane Katrina's geopolitical effect was not, in many ways, distinguishable from a mushroom cloud. The key exit from North America was closed. The petrochemical industry, which has become an added value to the region since Jackson's days, was at risk. The navigability of the Mississippi south of New Orleans was a question mark. New Orleans as a city and as a port complex had ceased to exist, and it was not clear that it could recover. [...] A simple way to think about the New Orleans port complex is that it is where the bulk commodities of agriculture go out to the world and the bulk commodities of industrialism come in. The commodity chain of the global food industry starts here, as does that of American industrialism. If these facilities are gone, more than the price of goods shifts: The very physical structure of the global economy would have to be reshaped. [...] The problem is that there are no good shipping alternatives. River transport is cheap, and most of the commodities we are discussing have low value-to-weight ratios. The U.S. transport system was built on the assumption that these commodities would travel to and from New Orleans by barge, where they would be loaded on ships or offloaded. ...Things unfortunately will get much worse >>>

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    I debated with myself for quite awile before posting the above excerpts and link to George Friedman's article. It seems that Katrina hit at the worst possible place, and at the worst possible time... Coincidence, or...?

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#14)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    If Brooks is right and there are alot of Republicans "furious" at Bush, you couldn't tell it from the comments on blogs like this. For example, there was this comment from a libertarian Republican "I think the feds should quit extorting money from hard working folks who live in more sensible places to subsidize these repeat loosers." Its hard to believe that anyone could see the suffering that these people are enduring and believe that the government should do nothing. Now I know that this person did not represent the views of most Republicans. They, like most Democrats, favor federal government assistance. Then, why were there no comments critical of this person from the right? I believe the problem is with a rightwing mindset that sees government as the problem. I say that instead of being "furious" with Bush, conservatives should ask themselves who was responsible for underfunding agencies and cutting programs like flood control. Unfortunately, sometimes you deserve what you don't pay for.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    The oil fields, pipelines and ports required a skilled workforce in order to operate. That workforce requires homes. They require stores to buy food and other supplies. Hospitals and doctors. Schools for their children. In other words, in order to operate the facilities critical to the United States, you need a workforce to do it -- and that workforce is gone. Unlike in other disasters, that workforce cannot return to the region because they have no place to live. New Orleans is gone, and the metropolitan area surrounding New Orleans is either gone or so badly damaged that it will not be inhabitable for a long time.


    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    The commodity chain of the global food industry starts here, as does that of American industrialism...
    ...and now they are gone...

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    I've been looking at a map of North America for a little while. It seems to me that if, as Friedman's article suggests...
    ...the New Orleans port complex [...] is where the bulk commodities of agriculture go out to the world and the bulk commodities of industrialism come in...
    and...
    The key exit from North America was closed.
    and...
    The navigability of the Mississippi south of New Orleans [is] a question mark.
    then, the only other way to keep the commodity chains of the global food industry, and of American industrialism, operating with the minimum possible effect on and reorganisation of the global economic structure, will be through the Great Lakes / St. Lawrence River Seaway complex. We maybe in much more serious trouble here folks, than we think, or than we can think... To once again quote George W. Bush: "This changes everything..." It certainly does...

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    Posted by bbickel: "but once it happened, every agency mobilized to help." Once 9i1 'happened' the Bush administration instructed FEMA to LIE TO NYERS about the poison they were inhaling. As for 'don't expect services,' that's the point of screwing the public at every opportunity -- lowered expectations of truth, honesty, followthrough, investigation, indictment, justice... all the way down the greased slide of tyranny. DEMAND YOUR RIGHTS, and CONTINUE DEMANDING THE RIGHTS OF THE VICTIMS of Bush's negligent disregard and hatred. Bush is a CCC racist. They howl with pleasure at the sight of the Pogrom on Black Louisiana. And meanwhile the War-liar is blowing the hell out of his political opposition in Iraq. Genocide doesn't start at home, but it is spreading there by the same pigs who blew the hell out of a disarmed country, for oil profits.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    Whoops, I wrote FEMA, when it was EPA that lied about the poison in the air. Bush should have been impeached the next day, but his fake war was MUCH more important, and people probably didn't imagine that Bush would let Bin Laden go as well.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    ...the New Orleans port complex [...] is where the bulk commodities of agriculture go out to the world and the bulk commodities of industrialism come in...
    The implications here are pretty clear, I think. Expect huge food and energy and basic commodity supply shortages, with accompanying skyrocketing prices.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    In plainer terms expect: Empty food store shelves, very long lineups for gasoline, a tanked (global) economy - with an unprecedented depression, and all the corresponding social unrest... Welcome to the New World Order.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    Jesus, I hope my analysis above is completely wrong...

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    What might be lost: 1.5mb oil production 16% natural gas supply 10% refining capacity - theres no slack in the capacity in the world.
    What makes it an integrated crisis is that the entire energy supply system in the region has been disabled, and that the parts all depend upon each other for recovery. If the next weeks reveal that the losses are as large as some fear, this would constitute one of the biggest energy shocks since the 1970s, perhaps even the biggest. Unlike the crises of the '70s or the Persian Gulf crisis of 1990-91, this does not involve just crude oil: It includes natural gas, refineries and electricity.
    link Now this comes at a time when we have either arrived at or are near to "peak oil". There is a supply and demand problem. Very high gasoline, oil and natural gas prices will make everything more expensive. The cost of heating a house this winter could easily be 2x what it was last year. The cost of fertilizer to grow crops will double, the cost of plastics will go up etc etc. Although Katrina has sped up the energy problem and higher prices, do not look ffor them to go down significantly ever. Many experts were predicting $4-5/gallon for gas within a couple of years and this was before the hurricane. Do we adjust our life style and consumtion habits or do we invade another oil rich country. BTW Bush came up with another justification for the Iraq war, to keeps its oil fields out of the hads of terrorists!! Well he slowly getting to the truth. Not quite there yet.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    Do we adjust our life style and consumtion habits or do we invade another oil rich country. BTW Bush came up with another justification for the Iraq war, to keeps its oil fields out of the hads of terrorists!! Well he slowly getting to the truth. Not quite there yet.
    From the Bush League perspective it would make sense to invade Canada now, for the St. Lawrence River Seaway. But then, Canada has already been bought...

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    We'll (be slowly getting to the truth...
    New Orleans: A Geopolitical Prize

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    Ernesto-The failures in 9/11 were hidden and appeared after the fact, here all is in plain sight.
    What was hidden about 4 airliners being hijacked and crashed before the military could do anything? It was very obviously a spectacular failure of our defenses, just like this event. But the pundits took a totally different tone, i.e., "whoever did this will pay". There wasn't so much as a murmur about asking how it could have happened, much less any calls for accountability.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    Ernest-I was talking about the other hidden failures of 9/11. The obvious ones, yes, those were not talked about either. The big lie is what I worry about. If we have another, Chimpy will surely become King; Fasciscm 101. With the natural disaster they wind up looking bad because they are seen not as victims but as perpetrators in their lack of planning and care. Big embarrassment as opposed to big heroes. They did save the good stuff for long weekend TV, 7000 troops, better than football. Perhaps they will turn it around, but I think even the rich are scared now because property was not protected, and even with tax cuts their tax dollars were not spent wisely. We'll see...

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#29)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    Empty food store shelves I'd better start canning food. I've already done pickles.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    The spin will be that the government is useless, and therefore should not be relied on, and therefore (here comes the money shot) there's no point in continuing to count on the Federal government for protection from disaster. That is the same thing they've been saying since Reagan announced that "Government isn't the solution; government is the problem."
    They'll be hard pressed to dismantle DHS. If they really believed this, they might not have interfered with the Red Cross. I'm kidding myself. In the end, it probably will be an excuse for further privatization and corporate givaways. I could imagine having the kind of unaccountable, non-transparent corporate mercenaries and "security subcontractors" we have in Iraq attempting to "maintain order" in the U.S.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:11 PM EST
    Posted by aw: "I've already done pickles." So has the preznit, and half of the barnyard. [sorry, a moment of levity in the face of that fascist creep.]

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:11 PM EST
    People coming together after 9/11...this time, the government can't play on fears and prejudices to focus American's dissolution over the suffering to target for political/material gain. Obviously, the Hurricane was caused by Iranian terrorists with liberal American professors helping them coordinate it. Try as he might, Rove & Co. can't come up with a spin that works. The War in Iraq is a long term investment. The NOLA disaster is simply a Cost Center to them -- just like any other Cost Center, the details must be "managed down" as the Corporate lingo goes. Sick evil ****** that they are - editing my own.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:11 PM EST
    The spin will be that the government is useless,
    This would be way too close to admitting mistakes. You think these Bush Leaguers has the stomach for it, even out of self interest? "The only problem we have is a PR problem"(???) Hmmm, maybe rover can make that one fly...

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#34)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:11 PM EST
    John Horse-
    “For example, there was this comment from a libertarian Republican "I think the feds should quit extorting money from hard working folks who live in more sensible places to subsidize these repeat loosers." Its hard to believe that anyone could see the suffering that these people are enduring and believe that the government should do nothing.”
    From most of my conversations with you here I had the impression you were an honorable person; I was dead wrong, you are an incredible a$$. I was not saying that these folks should be abandoned (a point I’ve had to repeatedly clarify), and to say as much is absolutely incredible. This was said in the context of subsidizing insurance programs and other tax giveaways responsible for the mass of development there today; and the mass tragedy. I could point you to my posts on what I do think of FEMA’s job and what charity I plan to do myself, but after this I really don’t have much use for you. And Republican? Christ, last election cycle if there wasn’t a Libertarian I voted for the Democrat; I prayed for Senator Kerry to win. I think this is the most pi$$ed I’ve been with any misrepresentation or distortion of my posts by another poster. To imply that I think nothing none of these rescue efforts should be made; absolutely incredible.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:12 PM EST
    The left is conveniently forgetting the sheer scope of this disaster.
    Until last Sunday, New Orleans was, in many ways, the pivot of the American economy. Excuse me, James... you were saying?

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#36)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:13 PM EST
    pig
    I was not saying that these folks should be abandoned ... This was said in the context of subsidizing insurance programs and other tax giveaways responsible for the mass of development there today...
    If I understand what you are now saying you are for providing food, water, and temporary shelter to the evacuees, but you are against federal funds to help rebuild their homes, businesses, and are also against federal funding for flood control projects. As I understand what you are saying, your opposition to "tax giveaways" is based on your belief in individual choice. In other words, these folks knew that they were living in an area that was due to be hit by a hurricane, but instead of spending their money to improve the levees, they "gambled." Therefore, they, rather than the federal government, bears the responsibility for their predicament. If that is the case then why should the federal government even have to provide food and water. A person who chooses to live in a flood prone area has noone to blame but himself for the fate that befalls him. As far as I'm concerned, your arguement against "tax giveaways" is also an arguement against the federal government providing any assistance. If this is not what you meant, then you obviously haven't made that very clear as demonstrated by your constant need to clarify this. By the way, my post was aimed at those Republicans who I believe also disagree with your views but didn't have the courage to acknowledge that sometimes government isn't the problem but the solution. Finally, if I misrepresented what you said, please believe that it was due to a misunderstanding. I may not always be honorable, but I try.

    Re: Political Ramifications of Katrina (none / 0) (#37)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:15 PM EST
    John Horse-
    “you are for providing food, water, and temporary shelter to the evacuees, but you are against federal funds to help rebuild their homes, businesses,”
    I see the rescue and relief efforts as a legitimate use of federal, and certainly local government. Rebuilding homes is fine, but not in the gulf coast, perhaps compensation for small businesses. I plan to target my charity at folks who resettle outside of the gulf coast. The entire problem is subsidy; otherwise folks wouldn’t be there in the first place. There is absolutely no lender that would fund the sale or construction of an uninsurable home. I could see companies and corporations making use of the ports and oil deposits, but they should be doing so at their own risk, they certainly do so elsewhere.
    “As far as I'm concerned, your arguement against "tax giveaways" is also an arguement against the federal government providing any assistance.”
    Perhaps, but I can’t stand to see folks suffer like that. It is much easier to tell someone that you wont subsidize the insurance of a new property than to let them die on their rooftop. Also, the argument can be made that collectively the states have a vested interest in not letting another descend into lawless chaos, even if it is due to a lack of planning. Still, New Orleans can really only blame New Orleans. Even if they had billions in federal revenue for the levies, they would have needed a decade or more to reconstruct them all. But the city and state did almost nothing in the face of the imminent catastrophe. But what if folks want to live in disaster prone areas anyway, who should pay for their evacuation and relief? Fund organizations like FEMA from tax revenues assessed proportionately to the risk of using them.
    “Finally, if I misrepresented what you said, please believe that it was due to a misunderstanding. I may not always be honorable, but I try.”
    I understand. After I made the post I immediately regretted it; I overreacted. After a week of watching these folks I’m very upset. Also, the unfounded accusations and misrepresentations of the more hostile folks here get to me. I apologize.

    Political Ramifications of Katrina | 36 comments (36 topical)