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Are the Administration's Actions or Statements Criminal?

By Jeralyn, Section Huricanes Katrina and Rita
Posted on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 11:07:39 PM EST
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Law Prof Ellen Podgor of the White Collar Crime Law Prof Blog, asks:

Is it criminal to make statements over the wires that are dishonest? If you happen to be a government official does it reach the level of being a scheme to defraud of "honest services"? Is the government a corporation and therefore subject to the collective knowledge of other officials within their midst; the US government holds corporations to this standard? Is it specific intent, recklessness, or negligence, and does it make difference?

I have a lot of questions. The bottom line is that after listening to the CNN video clip on AOL here, reading TalkLeft here, reading the Times-Picayune open letter to President Bush here, and John Lewis' letter in Newsweek here and being horrified by the incompetency and disregard of too many these past few days, one has to wonder if this reaches a level of criminality. And if not, should it?

Thoughts, anyone?

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    Are the Administration's Actions or Statements Criminal? | 25 comments (25 topical)
    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:11 PM EST
    Oh, c'mon guys. You've got to come up with something more real than a PDF of the DHS official response plans to get the Busheveks to admit their Dear Leader is as culpable as anyone for this debacle. Didn't you get Rove's memo? It's only the fault of members of the DNC. I still don't know which disgusts me more. The moonbats claiming Bush purposefully abandoned thousands to their death, or the wingnuts who blather how it's everyone's fault except the Shrubs'. A pox on both.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#24)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:11 PM EST
    aw writes: Yes, I think so. We arrest parents for criminal neglect, don't we? Huh? Last time I checked, politicians aren't my parents. You??
    No, but criminal neglect IS a crime.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#1)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    And if not, should it?
    Yes, I think so. We arrest parents for criminal neglect, don't we?

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#2)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    Putting politicians in jail for spouting bullsh*t? Haw. Where would we put 'em all?

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#3)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    Well, BS is one thing. But when you just make statements that are diametrically opposed to reality... shouldn't there be some kind of punishment? Isn't there, like, a Commandment about that?

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    what about dereliction of duty? greg mitchell had a terrific commentary at editorandpublisher. "While the 9/11 “My Pet Goat” episode was certainly illuminating, it’s not certain what might have worked out better that day had the president dropped the book and taken action. But his failure to grab the reins in the hurricane catastrophe for three days this week probably doomed hundreds, or more, to death. This is not mere incompetence, but dereliction of duty. The press should call it by its proper name."

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#5)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    I'm not at all certain that our president was unusually derelict in his duties on this occasion. As the events of September 11 showed, he doesn't really have anything to contribute in a crisis. Condoleeza Rice, while shopping for shoes, was rebuked in public for her insouciance; she had the offender removed, and perhaps that was the right thing to do. She's a lightweight. Nothing suggests that Condi's more adequate than George. Can we blame Cheney for his heartlessness? That would be cruel for a man with a defibrillator implant. Chertoff, Brown? They're idiots. I'd blame Jeb Bush, governor of Florida. Three hurricanes ravaged Florida last year and the feds responded with alacrity, probably because Jeb called his brother and warned him. Maybe he forgot to call him this time.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    FEMA will wither in the harsh light which has only just been turned on these incompetents. In the old days we would be laying odds on how long it would take The President to fire someone, or whether a guy would be duty-bound to fall on his sword. But maybe not so these days. Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld for that matter, these gentlemen are incapable of shame or embarassment. They are True Believer's, the most dangerous type. I forecast Type-5 Arrogance and More of The Same in weeks and months to come. Chertoff is safe. Brown will say he was on antidepressants and didn't know he was being quoted. Criminals? What's the question?

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#7)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    the preamble to the constitution identifies "providing for the general welfare" as one of the primary purposes for organizing the united states. the failure of public officials to do so, i think, may well be grounds for impeachment. i'll leave it to those more learned than i to consider this.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#8)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    NEWSFLASH: As President Bush was conducting one of his numerous photo ops in Louisiana, local law enforcement, National Guardsmen and US Secret Service agents were overrun by an angry mob. After a severe beating the president was dragged away to a nearby park where he was unceremoniously lynched under a magnolia tree. The crowd then constructed a makeshift barbecue where the president's body was roasted and eaten seasoned only with looted bottles of Louisiana hot sauce. Soon after many among the mob complained of indigestion. Dick Cheney furious, stated that the perpetrators will be found and executed. Members of Bush's staff suggested that if the perpetrators could be caught, their feces could be collected and the president reconstructed from this waste material as good as new. But Vice President Cheney stated that there was no time to mount such a time-consuming expedition. He has already moved his family into the White House, declared nationwide martial law, and suspended the constitution indefinitely. Chief Justice John Roberts, after excommunicating the other members of the Supreme Court, has approved Cheney's constitutional amendment declaring him king in perpetuity. Conservative Neo-Christian extremicons rejoice, declaring America finally free.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    Well, there's dereliction of duty. There's also involuntary commitment, as this bunch is obviously disconnected from reality and a threat to themselves and others.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    One of the stories around concerns the request/demand of FEMA that Blanco relinquish control of the area to FEMA. Now, I'm not sure what this means, whether this is just the historical and legal requirements of state of emergency aid, but it raises some questions. Especially since the impression I got from these stories was that FEMA was dragging its feet on providing aid to Louisiana during the demand process. We didn't hear about this same type of request/demand from FEMA to Gov. Barbour. Is that because it was just so usual and Barbour immediately ceded control? But if such a demand/request isn't part of the historical and legal requrements for state of emergency aid, then why didn't we hear about the same approach with Mississippi? It may seem like a quibble, but if in fact Mississippi was treated one way and Louisiana another, there is a very real question of why and a possible question of equity in dealing with the two states.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    Manslaughter? I'm not a lawyer (as this post will probably make evident to those that are) but what about Manslaugher of the "depraved heart" or "reckless indifference" variety?

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#12)
    by Paralegal on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    Can we blame Cheney for his heartlessness? That would be cruel for a man with a defibrillator implant. Chertoff, Brown? They're idiots.
    As we know, Cheney always has other priorities, & getting his deferred comp from Halliburton will be one of them. I imagine Halliburton will make a pretty penny off the storm clean up.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    aw writes:
    Yes, I think so. We arrest parents for criminal neglect, don't we?
    Huh? Last time I checked, politicians aren't my parents. You?? hell's kotchen: On Friday 8/26 the Federal Government offered to take over the the evacuation if the Governor would sign the proper request forms. She would not because she was concerned over "martial law." The fact is, FEMA can not do many things until the Governor of a state requests help and agrees to the help. Blame the Governor, not the people whose hans she left tied. So, if things happened differently in the two states, you first need to find when MS asked for help as compared to LA. You also need to understand if the "ask for" also included permission to do the job.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    Yes.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#15)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    It looks like the locals were pretty bad at disaster relief and that the feds were even worse. Plenty of blame to go around.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#16)
    by wishful on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    It is reasonable that the Bush regime was caught unawares. Repubs believe with all their hear...with all they've got that...a rising tide lifts all boats. Why would anyone need to be rescued?

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    On Friday 8/26 the Federal Government offered to take over the the evacuation if the Governor would sign the proper request forms. She would not because she was concerned over "martial law."
    PPJ, I say it again. You are a liar. You lied right here: in this thread The article actually said
    About 42,000 people had been evacuated from the city by Saturday afternoon, with roughly the same number remaining, city officials said. Search-and-rescue efforts continued in flooded areas of the city, where an unknown number of people wait in their homes, on rooftops or in makeshift shelters. Hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced by the flooding -- 250,000 have been absorbed by Texas alone, and local radio reported that Baton Rouge will have doubled in population by Monday. Federal officials said they have begun to collect corpses but could not guess the total toll. Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.
    The article was datelined Saturday, September 3 and published Sunday, September 4. They were obviously talking about Friday, September 2. I've pointed this out repeatedly. You keep repeating the same lie. Your entire premise is based on A LIE.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    Your entire premise is based on A LIE.
    Based on the crew he is shilling for, is this really surprising?

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    Jim, You assertion that, in this kind of disaster, the feds can't act until asked by a governor is patently false. TL just the other day linked to a Dept. of Homeland inSecurity "National Response Plan" from late last year that made it clear as day that the feds were to move IMMEDIATELY, with no need for a formal request, in an emergency of this magnitude.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    PPJ: On Friday 8/26 the Federal Government offered to take over the the evacuation if the Governor would sign the proper request forms. She would not because she was concerned over "martial law." Link please. PPJ: The fact is, FEMA can not do many things until the Governor of a state requests help and agrees to the help. Link please. Over at the Homeland Security home it says this: "In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort."

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#21)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    I think I know what's wrong with PPJ. While he collects his social security check every month, senility may be setting in with deterioration of short-term memory. That's why he can't help repeating the same things over and over. I guess it's true that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    PPJ, the National Response Plan referred to by Dadler can be viewed here. Over here it says:
    Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events The National Response Plan provides mechanisms for expedited and proactive Federal support to ensure critical life-saving assistance and incident containment capabilities are in place to respond quickly and efficiently to catastrophic incidents.
    How do you define proactive? I'll be proactive and link for you:
    proactive (of a policy or person or action) controlling a situation by causing something to happen rather than waiting to respond to it after it happens
    Re: Are the Administration's Actions or Statemen (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:23 PM EST
    The punishment for the crime is where it has always been: at the ballot box. See you at the mid-terms!!!

    Are the Administration's Actions or Statements Criminal? | 25 comments (25 topical)