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White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill

By TChris, Section War on Terror
Posted on Tue Oct 25, 2005 at 07:02:49 AM EST
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by TChris

Vice President Cheney, hoping to gut the recently passed (by a 90-9 vote) Senate bill banning torture of detainees, met with the bill's primary sponsor, John McCain, to propose an exception that would permit the CIA to use the prohibited interrogation techniques "with respect to clandestine counterterrorism operations conducted abroad" if "the president determines that such operations are vital to the protection of the United States or its citizens from terrorist attack." McCain said no.

Mr. McCain has kept the pressure on as the issue moves to a House-Senate conference committee, perhaps later this week or next. ... The matter will probably be settled in a private meeting in the next week or two among four senior lawmakers: Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska and Representative C. W. Bill Young of Florida, both Republicans; and Senator Daniel K. Inouye of Hawaii and Representative John P. Murtha of Pennsylvania, both Democrats. All are on the conference committee.

The White House also opposes a proposal advanced by Sen. Carl Levin to create an independent commission that would review accusations of prisoner abuse by American forces abroad.

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    White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill | 53 comments (53 topical)
    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#1)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    wait.. I thought it was a few bad apples?

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#2)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    Jen, It is just a few bad apples. Bush, Cheney, Rice.................

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    Hoping against hope that McCain sticks to his guns on this one. Besides, it would be a good feather in his cap come the '08 campaign with everyone but the extreme RWNJ's.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    Good for McCain. He knows that making the CIA exempt from the anti-torture bill, just a wee small change, would in essence gut the existing law as it is.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#5)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    Here is a another link for some details on why Cheney's torture exclusion for CIA.
    "'I'm talking about people who aren't in uniform, may or may not be citizens of the United States, but are working for us in very difficult circumstances,' Stevens said. 'And sometimes interrogation and intimidation is part of the system.'"
    He makes torture sound quaint. Balkinization via was and peace

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    Of course McCain ...being a POW himself ....would be against such things I'm a big McCain fan & hope he decides to run next. Unfortunately... laws against us using torture won't stop our enemies from doing it. I know I'll catch hell from all you lefties...but as far as I'm concerned...if pulling a few fingernails out would have stopped 9/11...I'm all for it.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    Jen: I thought it was a few bad apples? It is. But the infection began with one of them.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#8)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    Drugs work better. And as McCain pointed out. The rider is for the benefit of the troops. Bad enough we send these kids over to be shot at and blown up. They also face being given orders by officers, nco's, CIA civilians, civilian contractors, AND can be sent to jail when they come back? F*#@ that. Oh, and BB, yeah, I don't like torture at all no sirreebob. I hold this country to a higher standard of moral conduct. (stupid, I know)

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    nice to see McCain finally have some cojones. On everything else he has been a total tool. He's way better than Rudy but hopefully we won't get either in 08 (I don't care if we get them...as long as they both lose)

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    bb-as much as Smirk and Scowl love their daily manicure, they would not give any credible info up if the new manicurist you suggested took over. As best they would be reduced to act like all the other tortured detainees, they would say anything, aka Lie through their teeth, in order to send the manicurist off so s/he could do someone else's nails. Torture is extremely unreliable as a form of information gathering, as well as being against national and international law because it is uncivilized.This may come as a surprise to you: real life is different than a spy movie.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#11)
    by Pete Guither on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    One of the things that often gets forgotten is the fact that having a strict policy against torture helps protect our troops.
    1. If enemy troops think they'll be well treated, it's easier for them to surrender. If they believe they'll be tortured, they're more likely to fight to the death even against odds.
    2. If our troops are captured, it increases the chances that they'll be mistreated if the enemy has seen us mistreat captives.
    3. Torture by our side adds fuel to recruitment efforts by the enemy.
    4. Morale of our troops is improved if they have clear, unambiguous guidelines in this area, and you're not leaving it up to the proclivities of individuals, with contradictory signals from above.
    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#12)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    Why are they so goddamn obsessed with torture? And why should we listen to any of our wingnuts ever again, since, mark my words, not one of them will bother explaining their torture fetish?

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    And why should we listen to any of our wingnuts ever again, since, mark my words, not one of them will bother explaining their torture fetish?
    SSS- They don't support torture, they just haven't seen any torture yet. Or some RNC talking point spin like that.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    Gutting is the perfect phrasing for what this admin. does and continues to do.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    Hey Pete: Cutting off heads of innocents v. torturing enemy combatants: see a discrepancy? (probably not, surprise, surprise) I am all for any torture of our enemies that has the possibility of leading to saving an American v. Killing an enemy prisoner - bet no one reading this could find that statement sensible as we have to be real nice and friendly and "civilized" (WTF?) to those Eastern fundamentalists that want to see everyone in America, including you, die at the hands of Allah, the good God, as opposed to those crazy Christians. Unbelievable comes to mind. I wish one of you crazy libs was the one about to be beheaded just for being American. Then maybe you would stop your whining about our "uncivilized" conduct towards prisoners and motivate you to support eradication of those that want to kill us for having the right to post wacko views on this site. Squeaky: "Torture is extremely unreliable as a form of information gathering, as well as being against national and international law because it is uncivilized.This may come as a surprise to you: real life is different than a spy movie." - and where do you get your info? Ever torture someone only to find out that the info they have given is unreliable? No. But I am sure you can point to reports, studies, statistics, etc, that back up your statement, right? Ignorance- what a misunderstood word. Truth is, you have no idea, b/c you have no experience on which to base your assertions. Typical of someone who likes to hate America. If torture is so uncivilized and the US is held to such a high moral standard (why??), you think it just dandy and fine for Islamic fundamentalism to preach and carry out the killing, torturing, and beheading of Innocent civilians? Bet I'll never see a post from you condemning that behavior. It is much more fun to engage in your domestic terrorism against anything and everything American b/c the EVIL empire of Bush/Cheney and that warmonger Condoleeza Rice are in tryrannical power, right. If you have even one ounce of patriotism in you (which I am hard-pressed to imagine), STEP UP: http://www.anysoldier.com http://www.americasupportsyou.mil http://www.lettersfromhomeprogram.org

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#16)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Hanityiscrazy,
    Truth is, you have no idea, b/c you have no experience on which to base your assertions. Typical of someone who likes to hate America.
    Like Senator McCain, you mean.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Senator McCain DOES have that experiernce, not "Pete". He is also a great Patriot. However, I do disagree with some of his opinions, but would like to see him in the Whitehouse come 2008. I do not agree that America has to be held to some higher ground as opposed to the rest of the international community. Why? We already throw more money @ countries that despise us (ever hear of an earthquake in Pakistan), but it hasn't made these Islamic states warm up to us, at all. Query: if the US still engages in that form of interrogation, that either means: 1. It is working 2. We just like to see our enemies suffer b/c we are the great Satan. I believe #1, you believe #2.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    hic-There are still cannibals around, should we try that as well. Or maybe a bt of autophagy, I hear it is all the rage, somewhere far off. When you have finished pulling the legs off your pet spiders you may want to read this from ones who know. You have come to different conclusions than these folks from your evident personal experience. I bet you got those spiders to give away their secrets about secretion. Now you can spin spin spin to your hearts content.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    hannityiscrazy... Good links.... However... The first is obviously false. That pic of a US soldier with a bunch of Iraqi kids around him has got to be either... #1 staged... #2 false .... We all KNOW from the left wing media that all Iraqis hate us & don't want us there... Just ask La La Paul....

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#21)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    hic-- I don't have any experience with torture, and I hope you don't either. But the strong consensus among interrogation specialists, as well as among those who have experience with torture (either as victims or as persons who have interviewed or treated victims), is that torture is not an effective way to get reliable information. In fact, it was the questionable reliability of information gained through torture -- and not any humanitarian impulse -- that was the basis for the first western ban on torture (in 1776, believe it or not).

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Okay, Hannityiscrazy, I will try to respond to your post, though I think I am just wasting my time because I don't think you are interested in an open dialog. First, let me explain why liberals get upset about Americans torturing people (or at least why I do). It is not out of lack of patriotism, but that I love my country, and not just a blind love but a love for what I believe it stands for. And when I see someone dishonoring our country, I see it as unpatriotic not to say something. I am horrified by torture and mistreatment of people anywhere by anyone(though I have never understood why beheadings are held up by conservatives as the vilest offense. Murder is murder. Blowing someone up is awful to. Maybe that is just my ignorance, as I have never been blown up or beheaded so I can't compare the experience). However, I feel a moral cupability when it is done in the name of America, in my name, with my tax dollars. So I feel an urgency about speaking out about it that I don't feel when someone terrorist, far away, who could care less what I think, does something. Why should we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other peope do? I don't know about your religious beliefs, but mine don't let me say, well other people are bad too so its okay. Furthermore, it sends a strong message when America refuses to disrespect human rights. I heard an interview with some former USSR bigwig, and he said he thought what weakened the power of the USSR was not so much Reagan's tough talk, but that our making human rights a part of our foreign policy in the 70s helped us win the global PR battle against the Soviets. Similarly, contrary to what you might think, most arabs are not fans of terrorism, extremism, and the like. If we want to convince them our way is the better, more moral way we need to engage in better PR, and a strong stand against torture is one of them. Despite your contempt for "reports, studies, and statistics", there is actually good information from Israel's policies on torture on its effectiveness. They found people tell you what they think you want to hear, not actually useful information. So that is another strike against torture. Another important thing to remember is that many of our prisoners are not actually known to be involved in anything (I remember a report out a while back, prior to the whole abu graib scandal saying that most of the prisoners in there were just picked up in random sweeps and had nothing to do with anything). So even if you find it morally acceptable to torture terrorists, what about the purely innocent? Is there no person it is unacceptable to torture if there is even a fraction of a chance that it might help us? I have actually spent time in the middle east, and no one wanted to kill me or take away my right to free speech in the United States. That is just ridiculous propaganda and you should be embarassed you buy in to it so wholeheartedly. Trust me, they don't actually "hate our freedoms". The average arab I know just wants the United States to stop meddling in their part of the world. Now, granted, I probably would not want to live in the country some of these people might set up if they got there own way. And why do people torture if it doesn't work? Because they are desperate, because they hope it might just work this time.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#23)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    I do not agree that America has to be held to some higher ground as opposed to the rest of the international community. Why? We already throw more money @ countries that despise us (ever hear of an earthquake in Pakistan), but it hasn't made these Islamic states warm up to us, at all.
    Yeah, we all know Jesus didn't really mean all that "turn the other cheek" stuff anyway.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#24)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    I am against torture because I do think that we are best. Some posters here make me wonder sometimes........

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#25)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    I mean, really. Why don't we torture people? Because it's wrong. Why do we give help to the helpless? Because it's right. Is there something hard to understand here?

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    JB-
    And why do people torture if it doesn't work? Because they are desperate, because they hope it might just work this time.
    Or they are just sadistic vengeful people who have a platform to vent their hostility through torture. A pound of flesh.... Oddly appropriate for these folks is the famous quip, "It is hard to just eat just one"

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#27)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Thanks, JB

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Very well spoken J.B. :
    Why should we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other peope do? I don't know about your religious beliefs, but mine don't let me say, well other people are bad too so its okay. Furthermore, it sends a strong message when America refuses to disrespect human rights.
    To hannityiscrazy, and to all who think torture produces positive results: You want people in other parts of the world to respect America? You want them to not attack America? You want them to not hate America? You want them to look up to America? Show them an America they can look up to. You think torture will make them fear you? It won't. It is extremely counterproductive. Just like it would in you, all it will cause in them is hatred and anger: Here is what they think: The U.S. and the Escalating Threat to the World By Nabila Harb Apr 22, 2005, 22:55

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    I am talking about saving lives of our countrymen, not the lives of Islamic Fundamentalists. The question is: if torture does not work, why are there many trying so hard to preserve it as an option? Most posters on this site would say: "b/c the US is an evil empire of torturers who want to see other people suffer for the sake of suffering since they don't give out any credible information -- look at all the studies." I don't buy it. I think the cruel irony is that torture, as abhorrent as some may find it, produces results. If it didn't, why would we want to preserve it? And for those of you pissed that I don't understand the logic of taking the "high road" (whatever that is) as opposed to other countries, should we be complacent about the beheading of fellow Americans? There is a disparity b/w how we treat our prisoners and how our enemies treat their prisoners. I would rather have a dog bite on my arm, have someone smear excrement on my facE, be put in a hood and sleep uncomfortabley, be piled on top of a bunch of other naked prisoners, and be pummeled and beaten -- THAN HAVE MY HEAD CUT OFF EVEN THOUGH I AM AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN, NOT AN ENEMY COMBATANT. THAT IS THE "HIGH ROAD" YOU ACES ARE TALKING ABOUT. WE DO NOT BEHEAD INNOCENT IRAQI'S ON VIDEO. IDIOTS LIKE YOURSELVES WOULD RATHER MAKE A FOI REQUEST TO HAVE PICTURES OF THE ABU PRISONERS BEING ABUSED TO INCITE VIOLENCE AGAINST OUR MEN AND WOMEN FIGHTING OVER IN IRAQ THAN ADMIT THAT OUR TREATMENT OF PRISONERS, ABUSIVE AS IT MAY BE, IS "THE HIGH ROAD" COMPARED TO OUR ENEMIES. FEEL FREE NOT TO ADDRESS THAT.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    WE DO NOT BEHEAD INNOCENT IRAQI'S ON VIDEO. No, we just rape them, torture their families, kill them, blow up their houses, kidnap them ... etc. PLease, please ask for links.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    hic-
    The question is: if torture does not work, why are there many trying so hard to preserve it as an option?
    The answer is that it makes your "many people", aka politicians, look like they are winning the war on terror. They do not care if it is good intelligence, in fact bad intelligence serves them better. The population stays scared and nothing bad ever happens. A tried and true election winning strategy. What heros: Pro torture & pro traitor.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#32)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Hanitycrazy, I did actually ask a real torture victim once if he thought the kind of things (stress positions etc, not the stuff in the pictures) is actually torture. I sort of had to hold the phone real far from my ear cause my dad is a preacher and has a rather loud voice. Sufice to say that the answer is yes.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    "No, we just rape them, torture their families, kill them, blow up their houses, kidnap them ... etc." Sailor - you cannot have an intelligent discussion with someone who is delusional. Do you really think our policy and ground level actions in Iraq are to rape and torture families and kidnap??? It is fanatics like you who spin these grandiose, "the US is a country whose policy is to rape and torture families" stories who have no grasp of reality. I pity you. The difference b/w me and you is that I am support the United States of America, you do not. I am glad you took my advice and avoided my "high road" example, which, of course, you had no response to. Instead, you went with the usual "Paul in LA" - esque "The US is a warmongering, kidnapping, torturing, raping, evil empire. You know those websites to contact our troops and support them that I posted earlier? Bet you will never, ever engage in that type of actual patriotism. You are a domestic terrorist. Congratualations.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Jen - Never said it was torture. The discussion is this "high road" argument that the US should take. The torture you described is not akin to beheading on video. Ask you father if he would rather have been tortured as you described, or beheaded. that is what this discussion was about, but of course, no one wants to address that. What are you going to say? that the torture Jen describes is the same as beheadings and firing squads? No. It is not. Typical tactic of reaching at heartstrings of your fellow posters by painting me as the "pro torturer of preachers guy". Come on. Address the issue.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#35)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    And for those of you pissed that I don't understand the logic of taking the "high road" (whatever that is) as opposed to other countries, should we be complacent about the beheading of fellow Americans? There is a disparity b/w how we treat our prisoners and how our enemies treat their prisoners. I would rather have a dog bite on my arm, have someone smear excrement on my facE, be put in a hood and sleep uncomfortabley, be piled on top of a bunch of other naked prisoners, and be pummeled and beaten -- THAN HAVE MY HEAD CUT OFF EVEN THOUGH I AM AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN, NOT AN ENEMY COMBATANT.
    Wow... I volunteer smear excrement on your face. My dog has quite a powerful bite, I will bring him along. Maybe my friend will sodomize you with a broom before we make you masturbate and/or fellate several of your co-prisoners. Then I will beat you... But it is ok, because I am not cutting your head off? Even if you are innocent? I respect your ability to conjure these types of moral relativism. My dog and I are on the way.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Meant to say "never said is WASN'T torture". Must have been my scrambled conservative brain.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    "Wow... I volunteer smear excrement on your face. My dog has quite a powerful bite, I will bring him along. Maybe my friend will sodomize you with a broom before we make you masturbate and/or fellate several of your co-prisoners. Then I will beat you... But it is ok, because I am not cutting your head off? Even if you are innocent? I respect your ability to conjure these types of moral relativism. My dog and I are on the way." Johnny- PLEASE ADDRESS THE ISSUE: ISSUE: Is beating/abusing/depriving/etc. = to beheading/firing squads? My view: Both are torture. One involves abuse, the other involves murder. The US engages in the former, our enemies in the latter. Get it? I would rather be abused than murdered. Just my scrambled conservative opinion.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    It is interestingly childish how you all feel the need to slander and insult me. If that is what you have to do rather than address issues, Keep it up.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Johnny - After re-reading your post, are you trying to hit on me? My sign is virgo. XOXO

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#40)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    PLEASE ADDRESS THE ISSUE:
    Issue: Our leadership wants to torture. 90 of 100 senators disagree. Our leaders want to torture. The issue is not what you would rather have done to you. The issue is what our leaders want to do to them. Since you know nothing about the cultural mindset of hardline conservative Islamists, let me just say that they would probably rather be killed than be forced into sexual subjugation. The issue here, hannity, is that the president of the free world wants to continue using torture techniques that has resulted in the deaths of several prisoners-exactly the result you do not seem to support. Get a grip.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    "THE HIGH ROAD" COMPARED TO OUR ENEMIES. FEEL FREE NOT TO ADDRESS THAT.
    Open your eyes...
    April 30, 2004 The pictures from Abu Ghraib prison have shocked the US army. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. He told the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes II: "If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers." Gen Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs. "That soldier said: 'There are some things going on here that I can't live with'."
    IRAQI CIVILIAN WAR CASUALTIES

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#42)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Yes, hannity, I am hitting on you... You know how us sexually depraved liberals are... thanks, but no thanks.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    edger - Please see previous posts to get a clue

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    Johnny - Again - not addressing the issue I am trying to get one of ya'll to discuss. But don't worry, I have quit trying as of now.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#45)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    We did discuss it hannity-but we all disagree. Whats your point? We think you are into torture as a somehow less evil means of retribution and/or because of our moral superiority. We think torture is a waste of both resources and human life. Just because we willnot be swayed into your 13th century thinking does not mean we were nothaving a discussion about the off topic issue you brought to the table. It is simple, really. You are defending activity that results in the death of prisoners, while condemning behaviour that produces identical results when used by the other side. Correct me if I am wrong.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    my position is not that I approve of torture. The discussion was originally why the US does not take the high road when it comes to treatment of their enemies. My point is that relatively, murder is worse than abuse. Therefore, since the US does not have a policy of murdering their enemies, in relation to our enemies having a goal of murdering innocent civilians, the US has taken the high road in that respect. That is the issue I was attemption to flesh out. Do I think anyone should be tortured? Tough question. I would like to think that I would say there is "some fine line" of abusive treatment that should be allowable to get info that might save the lives of Americans, but that is a slippery slope. That is why we, as citizens do not, and never will, have full knowledge or control of where that line actually is.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    BTW - I didn't get off topic, someone couldn't understand why the US didn't "turn the other cheek like Jesus says" or "take the high road", which is the issue I addressed.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    One more BTW: I congratualate you on almost getting through a post without insulting me for my views. I guess in some sick and bassackwords form, that is progress.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#49)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    1) the WH endorsed, committed and tries to cover up torture. 2) Now they want exemptions so they can continue to do so. 'nuff said.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#50)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    LOL Hannity... I wasn't aware that calling you out on your moral inconsistencies was tantamount to insults and slander and whatever else you accuse us of doing. We understand, you endorse the methods of interrogation which result in a certain number of detainees dying. It's ok. And yes hannity, we should have taken the high road. We were there to "spread democracy" (reason number 2 on the bush list).

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#51)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    OUR TREATMENT OF PRISONERS, ABUSIVE AS IT MAY BE, IS "THE HIGH ROAD" COMPARED TO OUR ENEMIES. FEEL FREE NOT TO ADDRESS THAT.
    Moral relativism, eh? You liberal, you! How about this: cut out the "abusive" part and we can take the high road on an absolute, rather than relative, scale. There, was that so hard?

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    Sailor - you cannot have an intelligent discussion with someone who is delusional.
    I stated opinions, backed by facts, pleaded for someone to refute me, backed by facts, and all I got was a personal attack ... and not even a T-shirt;-) Next!

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    hannity: "Do you really think our policy and ground level actions in Iraq are to rape and torture families and kidnap???" Of course it is. "There is No More Iraq. There will be three territories." -- Bush appointee, Nine-eleven Commission, Henry Genocidist Kissinger "The difference b/w me and you is that I am support the United States of America, you do not." Bush is not the USA, and neither are you. You are what's wrong with America, and it starts with stolen elections and lies leading to needless war, restriction of citizen rights to privacy, and attacks on minorities. Hold that mirror up to your face, and then consider that Bush has given up to 20,000 mercenaries carte blanche in Iraq, including deathsquad veterans from around the world. Murder, Inc.

    Re: White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:38 PM EST
    WHITEHOUSE TRIES TO GUT ANTI-TORTURE BILL (Here is my third effort to appear on this blog. The other two seem to have vanished into the blogosphere) President Bush has threatened to veto an Iraq Appropriations Bill unless the Joint Committee of Congress strikes the AMENDMENT from the Bill sent up for his signature or guts it. Ninety percent of the Senators voted FOR this AMENDMENT. That is 90 Senators. The Amendment also has the support of 28 retired Generals and Admirals. From this it is fair to infer that Bush is not against, but in FAVOR of continuing torture. Otherwise why would he want to VETO such an AMENDMENT? It is also in the nature of an ADMISSION that he has in the past and wants authority to continue to torture prisoners. This is the first time in living memory (since Torquemada) that any Leader or Torturer has actually admitted and come out openly "in favor" of Torture. This is huge news, but seems to be totally downplayed by our media. It is not downplayed abroad (read the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung in Germany the London Times and others). HAVE WE NO SHAME? Do we need to be taught ethics by the GERMANS???? Can anyone out there explain to me why Bush would do this? Apart from the obvious IMMORALITY is it not completely despicable and counter productive to take this position??? Even from a pragmatic point of view it seems NOTHING has been gained from torture. Furthermore the huge public relations disaster WORLD WIDE saps our claim to be "the good guys". After all finally the War on Terror will be decided not in "body counts" but in peoples minds. We are winning over very few minds in the world with torture, redering and illegal detentions. samoking2 in San Diego County

    White House Tries to Gut Anti-Torture Bill | 53 comments (53 topical)