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Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial?

By TChris, Section Valerie Plame Leak Case
Posted on Sat Oct 29, 2005 at 12:47:39 PM EST
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by TChris

The NY Times describes how, “in its clear, cold language, [the Libby indictment] lifts a veil on how aggressively Mr. Cheney's office drove the rationale against Saddam Hussein and then fought to discredit the Iraq war's critics.” The indictment offers a peek, but the full scope of Cheney’s involvement in Libby’s indicted wrongdoing remains an unanswered question.

It is Libby’s right to be presumed innocent until proof beyond a reasonable doubt overcomes that presumption in the minds of twelve jurors. Would Libby exercise his right to a trial, knowing that Fitzgerald might call Cheney as a witness to events described in the indictment (pdf)? And knowing that Karl Rove, Official A, will testify against him? Does Libby want to subject Cheney and Rove to cross-examination?

Fitzgerald won’t write a report, and the Republican controlled legislature isn’t likely to indulge an investigation that would replicate Fitzgerald’s. If Libby doesn’t go to trial, and if Fitzgerald charges no others, few facts beyond those alleged in the indictment may enter the public record. If the true story comes out only in conversations with reporters, the administration will blame a liberal press and could succeed in containing much of the damage that full, public exposure of the facts would bring.

Libby knows this. That's why I still agree with this post's prediction that Libby will fall on his sword. Libby has every right to a trial, but how likely is he to make Cheney and Rove witnesses in a trial that could destroy the administration?

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    Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? | 25 comments (25 topical)
    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    If he pleads guilty, he definitely needs to serve as close to the max as he can be made to serve. If he is taking the fall for others, that fall needs to be as hard as possible.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    He has the right to be presumed innocent by the 12 jurors. No one else (except maybe alternate jurors) are under such a compulsion. The prosecutor has made it clear he doesn't consider Libby innocent, and neither do I. Too many times we think in America that the presumption of innocence is put on all of us. It is not. I am free to think that Libby is guilty, and am free to think Rove, Cheney and Bush are as well if I want. Innocent until proven guilty applies to only a portion of the court system, not to citizens or the media. Hell, even the defense lawyer is allowed to think her client is guilty as long as she provides a good defense!

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    I say there's still a strong possibility Libby will go to trial. Scoots is no innocent bystander in this scandal, but he was pushed under the bus somewhat by Rove and Co. I'm reasonably sure he'd love to see whoever betrayed him squirm like a worm on a hook in that witness box. Vengeance is very powerful motivator.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    Bush believes Libby has "worked tirelessly on behalf of the American people, and sacrificed much in his service to this country." Sounds to me like Scotter will cop a plea at the last moment and then wait for a pardon.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    njdem wrote:
    The prosecutor has made it clear he doesn't consider Libby innocent, and neither do I.
    If the prosecutor thought he was innocent, would he have charged him?

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    njdem, I wanted to write exactly the same sentiment. I have ABUNDANT evidence of the complicity of the entire WHIG In conspiracy, treason, war crimes, and genocide. I am under no fake liberal view that felons are innocent until proven guilty, when they have been showing us their arses, to our great disgust, for five years. NO ONE thought or tried to think that Al Capone was innocent. No one who has listened to all these lies, and watched all these cowardly smirks in the faces of our families and our troops, need pretend not to have convicted them over and over in those moments. Should the jury be impartial? Of course. But they will be viewing much of the same evidence WE have viewed. Rarely in the history of the world have so many people had SO MUCH incriminating evidence about such a group of liars and cheats. Left to us, they would all be sitting in the dock TODAY, with faces black and blue from our fists.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    Isn't it fairly safe to assume that at least some plea deal was presented to Libby in the past couple of weeks? Given that Shrub is likely to follow Poppy's lead and pardon anyone guilty or suspected of wrongdoing in this case, why wouldn't he just take the deal at the onset?

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#8)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    Agreed that Libby not going to trial could short circuit things. However, there does seem to be more than enough energy in the air for more than a few to fry on this. Not in a George "Try 'Em and Fry 'Em" BUsh way. But enough for considerable damage to be done in the court of public opinion. Did somebody say Al Capone? Added this to the rundown at ELIOT NESS 2005

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    I have some questions. One comment first. Whether one thinks Libby is guilty or not, the prosecutor still has to make his case. I don't think any of us have trouble recognizing that. That's been the whole problem with the Bush administration. They make presumptions without looking hard at the evidence. If Congress were to impeach Bush for abusing his office by lying to the American people when making his case for war, I think there's plenty of evidence for impeachment. It wouldn't be a matter of presumption. But Fitzgerald's mandate is restricted. I wonder how much real illumination we're going to see on what the Bush administration did or didn't do and whether Libby will turn against other administration figures or actually serve any time. But there may be opportunities to for the public to learn a lot. I hope so anyway. So here are my questions and forgive me if I'm not fully up to speed on some of this. How much will Fitzgerald be able to talk about Libby's motivation for lying to the prosecutor? How much will Fitzgerald be able to talk about any motivation behind the outing of Valerie Plame even though that isn't a specific charge? Has he talked about this motivation much yet? In a trial, will Fitzgerald be required by law to talk about motivation? Or can he simply march forward and say perjury is perjury and here's the evidence? If there is a trial, what risks does Libby and others face if they try to challenge the motivation in court if motivation is talked about? Like I said, I'm just catching up and while I'm interested in the outing of Valerie Plame and the obvious White House cover up, it's the story behind the motivation that I hope reaches the American people.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    I know little of Scooter Libby, but I like to think I know a little of life. Libby at fifty five, facing who knows how much goal time, will be a very frightened man. This talk of falling on his sword, I think not. In fact I would bet the farm that self presevation comes to the fore. His actions might be construed as foolish, but I am certain he is no fool. Think yourself how long it has been since last Halloween, how many days and nights, and all that you have acomplished in that time. I am sure this is not lost on Libby. I think he will grab any deal he can,giving up all and sundry. I am sure this is not lost on Fitzpatrick. I will say one thing,having witnessed Fitzpatrick, had I been Libby, I think I would might have come clean when I had the chance.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    "How much will Fitzgerald be able to talk about Libby's motivation for lying to the prosecutor?" So far not at all. The coverup, he says, is clearly intended to prevent him from doing so. "How much will Fitzgerald be able to talk about any motivation behind the outing of Valerie Plame even though that isn't a specific charge?" Not at all, unless he can flip someone to give that evidence. "Has he talked about this motivation much yet?" He has disclaimed it. No motive without evidence; no evidence, due to coverup. Really, the coverup is for the House to IMPEACH upon. All F. can do is twist arms. "In a trial, will Fitzgerald be required by law to talk about motivation?" Not in the slightest. The charges against Libby are crimes against the Grand Jury. They have nothing to do with Plamegate per se. "Or can he simply march forward and say perjury is perjury and here's the evidence?" Yep, and has. It's an open-and-shut case of that. Libby is nailed. "If there is a trial, what risks does Libby and others face if they try to challenge the motivation in court if motivation is talked about?" Motivation at this point is moot to F.'s indictment.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    I bet he pleads not guilty, they drag the pretrial motions long enough to get over the 2006 election than Bush pardons him. The story ends with no one admitting any wrongdoing. You can add Rove to the scenario. There is no reason to plea if you know a pardon is around the corner. Fitz has zero pressure.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    If the scootster goes to trial bush will be the defendant, 'hey scootie, you're doing a helluva job!'.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    If the scootster goes to trial bush will be the defendant, 'hey scootie, you're doing a helluva job!'.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    Read Fitz's Knuckle Ball for another perspective. This bottom line is that Mr. Fitzgerald has yet to step up to the plate.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    I think I read that Scooter has kids in school. I really doubt that he will fall on his sword and risk a sentence of up to 30 years in the slammer, no matter how loyal he is to the administration. And he can't unilaterally pead to a lesser sentence. Fitzgeral has to agree, expecting something in return. So it comes down to this: How much worse misery (than a 30-year sentence) can the Bushies threaten him with? Death? Or this: Can the Bushies threaten Fitzgerald? Or have him fired? Death? Or this: Scooter turns in his boss. But do the time? Not a choice. Not a chance.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    While pepsigold's happy cynicism is the perfect passive point-of-view, the fact is that the presidential pardon is not necessarily free. It can have MAJOR political consequences, especially when wielded in an obvious attempt to pardon co-conspirators. His father got away with it, but that was a different time. There is no way to predict the future on the past -- too many things are different. When Bush's father gave his co-conspirators a pass, there was no ubiquitous Internet (WWW) and there were no ubiquitous cellphones, and both of these tools are making major changes in our species as we speak. The future of Bush is very dim indeed. It's a synergistic effect, which isn't as Rovable as you or they might like.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    I also would like to point out that it is Bush's MO to screw everyone in sight. Remember that Nixon said he would never bump Meese. But then, surprise surprise, Meese was history, thrown to the dogs. The same with poor Scooter/Irving. Suddenly the Blighthouse won't answer his calls. Pardon? Scooter WHO? Hey, do any of you know an I. Scooter Libby? Sorry, wrong number.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    I don't know how Libby et al will accomplish it, but the White House cannot let this go to trial, and if it does, by all means Scooter cannot testify. R Padfoot said above:
    I wonder how much real illumination we're going to see on what the Bush administration did or didn't do and whether Libby will turn against other administration figures or actually serve any time.
    Fitzgerald did not perform a laproscopic procedure, he did a full laparotomy. In other words, he left the door wide open, but someone must walk through it and carry many others behind them. A few words from Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy are not enough...Dems must rise to the occasion more now than in decades. They must have a group that is absorbed in the sordid details of this Republican albatross, and they must have a group preparing strategic plans that have nothing to do with the drama currently being played out. If there is not an appropriate call to action by the Dems at this time, we are sunk for much longer than we would like to think.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#20)
    by libdevil on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    Libby is not going to trial. I don't know how they'll do it, but there's no way he'll go to trial. Maybe they'll coerce him into pleading guilty. Maybe they'll pardon him. Maybe all of the evidence will be destroyed in a mysterious office fire. Maybe Libby will have a small plane "accident." But he's never going to trial.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    DC Pol Sci wrote
    If the prosecutor thought he was innocent, would he have charged him?
    That's exactly the point. People keep writing that Libby must be presumed innocent, but even part of the court system is obligated to presume his guilt or the system would not work! The whole presumed innocent extention from the jury room to the streets of America is silly at best and damaging at worst. In order to have a jury trial someone has to have thought the defendent guilty -- cops, prosecutor, grand jury -- and so the idea that no one should presume guilt is ridiculous. Then to extend the presumption of guilt to us out here is to deny us our right to free expression. I think Libby is guilty of far more than these charges, and believe he is guilty of these charges, too. That doesn't harm him or the country. It's just my opinion, and lots of other people's.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    If Libby avoids a trial and cops a plea, doesn't that open him up to a civil trial from the Wilsons ? And the same cast of charecters would be called to testify under oath. So really dosn't Libby have to choose between a criminal or civil trial ? I haven't seen anybody opine on this yet.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    Characters even.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:33 PM EST
    Posted by purpleafghan: "If Libby avoids a trial and cops a plea, doesn't that open him up to a civil trial from the Wilsons ?" Non sequitur; he is already open to civil trial. F.'s actions so far have NOTHING to do with Valerie Wilson. They are crimes against the Grand Jury. However, it is conceivable that a (as yet unrevealed) plea deal in order to guarantee the Wilson's pending civil case has been accomplished.

    Re: Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:33 PM EST
    No Way will Evil Lord Dubya & Clown Prince Cheney allow "Scooter" to go to trial and expose them in "Open Court". He will be offered a plea bargin and Forced to take it....

    Will Libby Exercise His Right to a Trial? | 25 comments (25 topical)