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Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Saddam

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Sat Nov 26, 2005 at 11:33:40 PM EST
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What difference did the Iraq war make in terms of human rights advancements? None, according to former prime minister Iyad Allawi.

Abuse of human rights in Iraq is as bad now as it was under Saddam Hussein, if not worse, former prime minister Iyad Allawi said in an interview published on Sunday. "People are doing the same as (in) Saddam Hussein's time and worse. It is an appropriate comparison," Allawi told British newspaper The Observer.

"We are hearing about secret police, secret bunkers where people are being interrogated," said Allawi in an apparent reference to the discovery of a bunker at the Shi'ite-run Interior Ministry where 170 men were held prisoner, beaten, half-starved and in some cases tortured. "A lot of Iraqis are being tortured or killed in the course of interrogations."

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    • Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Saddam | 61 comments (61 topical)
    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    This, of course, fails to take into account that the atrocious security situation in Iraq is itself a human rights issue. The government's hostility puts a few people in danger, but its negligence in dealing with bombs and guerillas puts many, many more in danger. Iraq is undoubtedly a worse place since it was invaded. It needs to be talked about.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Payback is a b*tch!!

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    neil - Well, let's talk about it. What would you have done, and what would you do now? Remember that the current terrorist attacks are basically a mixture of Suni/Baath/al-Qaeda terrorists seeking to overthrow the government. How would you prevent these thugs from attacking and killing? I would agree that the torture, etc., being described is bad, but certainly not as bad as under Saddam. i.e. There is now a capability to correct them that doesn't require that an outside force invades again with the death and destruction that caused.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Not to take issue with his claims directly, but it seems odd to be trumpeting the views of a former terrorist whose group was at least partly responsible for the allegedly false WMD intelligence this war is so often said to have been based on. Maybe we should request some corroboration?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#5)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    What would you have done, and what would you do now? What I would have done is keep my army out of Iraq. I did everything I could to prevent this, but it happened anyway. What I would do now is impeach the president and everyone else in the administration who went along with it, vote out every single member of congress of either party who concurred, charge George W. Bush and Dick Cheney with war crimes and treason. But that's just me. Your tolerance for destruction of our country and the murder of thousands of innocent people may vary.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#6)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    justpaul,
    Not to take issue with his claims directly, but it seems odd to be trumpeting the views of a former terrorist...
    He's also a democratically-elected member of the Iraqi National Assembly. That's not an absolute trump card, but to ignore him is to ignore a sizeable chunk the Iraqi people.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Repack - I know what you would not have done, and what you would do. As for destruction, the last I saw was the Penagon burning, twon towers falling and 747's crashing into the ground. Your tolerance for that obviously is greater than mine. Roy - How sizeable? Should we think Jim McDermott or John Kerry?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Roy, And George W. Bush is the democratically elected leader of the United States, but that doesn't stop anyone here from ignoring his claims and accusing him of lying every time he opens his mouth. But then, I didn't say ignore him; I simply suggested we might want to get some objective corraboration before we took him at his word. People have been known to lie, as have terrorists and politicians. For a terrorist turned politician with a rather low level of support in his own country (14% support of his party), it would seem to be a likelihood if not an inevitability.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    As for destruction, the last I saw was the Penagon burning, twon towers falling and 747's crashing into the ground.
    Q: Earlier today you said that the President made no connection between 9/11 and Iraq. You said that there was no indication that there was a linkage at all. Can you explain why the American people seem to know -- to believe, according to the polls, that there is a connection? Does the White House have anything to do with that, and are you going to do anything to disabuse the perception? MR. McCLELLAN: You're right, if you're talking specifically about the September 11th attacks, we never made that claim. -- Office of the Press Secretary, September 17, 2003


    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#10)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    As for destruction, the last I saw was the Penagon burning, twon towers falling and 747's crashing into the ground. What is the connection between those events and the invasion of Iraq? No Iraqis took part in 9/11, and no one has produced evidence of a connection between Saddam and AQ. 9/11 made a better case for invading Saudi Arabia than for invading Iraq, since the majority of the hijackers were Saudis. Please connect these two seemingly unrelated dots for me (9/11 and Iraq), because otherwise it surely looks as though your voice is emanating from the vicinity of your descending colon.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    This is what BushCo thinks of as success?
    [Allawi] added that he now had so little faith in the rule of law that he had instructed his own bodyguards to fire on any police car that attempted to approach his headquarters without prior notice, following the implication of police units in many of the abuses. 'The assertions by Mr Allawi simply underline the catastrophic failure to have a proper strategy in place for the post-war period in Iraq.'
    I am more inclined to agree with a getired general that the the invasion of Iraq was the worst strategic disaster in U.S. history.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    As for destruction, the last I saw was the Penagon burning, twon towers falling and 747's crashing into the ground.
    Which, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with what's going on in Iraq. The sole connection between Iraq and 9/11 is that it provided the Monkey King and his cohorts an opportunity to pimp the victims as an excuse to invade an unrelated nation. Period.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Not to take issue with his claims directly, but it seems odd to be trumpeting the views of a former terrorist
    But he couldn't a terrorist! After all, we bankrolled his actions:
    Mr Allawi went on to co-found the Iraqi National Accord (INA) party, which is known for attracting disillusioned former Baathists from the military and security fields.

    From its foundation in 1991, with the backing of the US Central Intelligence Agency and British intelligence, the group supported the idea of fostering a coup from within the Iraqi army to overthrow Saddam Hussein, but its attempts ended disastrously.
    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    justpaul...FYI...the U.S. government refers to some terrorists as freedom fighters during certain moments of their career. Be careful or you could find yourself on a terrorist watch list for referring to a freedom fighter as a terrorist (provided of course, that they still have their freedom fighter recognition and have not, in the judgement of the U.S. government, reverted to terrorism).

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Ernesto: Be careful or you could find yourself on a terrorist watch list for referring to a freedom fighter as a terrorist...
    But what if there are those who have targeted you personally. What if there are those who have identified you as their enemy in a war that is not of your choosing? What if you have tried to walk away from the conflict, but they keep coming after you? What if there are those who want to destroy your way of life, your community, your friends and your loved ones? What if there really are those who want to ruin your life? One of the most difficult things in life for many of us is to face the fact that we do indeed have real enemies - enemies who hate our values of personal freedom, self determination and self governance. But why would anyone want to destroy you? What have you done to them? Why do they despise you and who are they? Who is the Enemy?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#16)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Sailor, The fact that the Clinton Administration helped fund and organize this group doesn't excuse the fact that it was carrying out random bombings in civilian environments, an action which is very hard to characterize as that of "freedom fighters" regardless of one's politics.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#17)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    I would agree that the torture, etc., being described is bad
    Glad we can agree on something...!

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    ClayP - Of course it does. If 9/11 had not happened, would we have been in Iraq and Afghanistan? You just want to keep pushing the "no connection" agenda. Repack - And no Germans took part in Pearl Harbor. Duhhhhhh. And your voice appears to come from your tin hat. Now that we have traded middle school insults, got anything to say of interest? edgey - See my comment to Repack. Make that a double duhhhhh. edgey and repack - You might note that my comments were in regards to EC's, of which there are a variety of counties involved, not just Iraqi nationals. Your instant desire to comment suggests to me that you know that the Amerian people undersyand the connection and you have a burning desire to re-write history. And edgey... I'm still grinning at you from the back of the room.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    So who you gonna believe, an iraqi former PM, or some commenter on a blog!? BTW, bushco has used chemical weapons to help kill 1200 'insurgents' while also killing 800 civilians. bushco has killed more iraqi civilians in the time period from 'Mission Accomplished' to now than SH ever did in the same amount of time. BTW, Allawi had REAGAN's cia backing. Sheesh, what a maroon!

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#20)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    There is now a capability to correct them that doesn't require that an outside force invades again with the death and destruction that caused.
    hahahahahahahaha

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    ClayP - Of course it does. If 9/11 had not happened, would we have been in Iraq and Afghanistan? You just want to keep pushing the "no connection" agenda.
    The invasion of Afghanistan had at least some connection to the events of 9/11. But in the case of Iraq, it was nothing more than an excuse to carry out what the Cheney/Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld cabal had been bellowing about for years. The "connection" was hyped to sell the American public on a war it wouldn't have supported otherwise. Predictably...you bought it hook, line, sinker, pole, boat and dock.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    PPJ, you are tenacious, I'll give you that. Your excuses, however, just grow more pathetic with every month that passes. Don't you notice this yourself?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#23)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Repack - And no Germans took part in Pearl Harbor. Duhhhhhh. Whether or not Germany took part in Pearl Harbor, Germany had a military alliance with Japan, and declared war on the United States as soon as we declared war on Japan. Let me repeat slowly. Germany declared war on the United States before we declared war on them. Our declaration was a response to theirs. If your analogy is that Iraq declared war on us when 9/11 took place, it doesn't pass the laugh test. Your desperate flailing for a response to undeniable and uncomfortable facts is amusing.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#24)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    So who you gonna believe, an iraqi former PM, or some commenter on a blog!? That's an interesting comment, Sailor. One could easily paraphrase it as "Who you gonna believe, the current president of the United States or some commenter on a blog!?". I had no idea you were so easily persuaded by titles, but then I think it's obvious who YOU will believe. As for who anyone else should believe, that's open to discussion, but it's a hard call since it's unclear who the commenter you are referring to is. I, for one, haven't contradicted Allawi; I've simply suggested that confirmation of his claims from an objective source would be helpful. As it is, we have only the subjective opinion of a politician most likely trying to gin up some support from his rather weak base, which makes his observations suspect at best (or would, for you, if he wasn't saying something you so clearly wish to hear). So be it. I for one have my doubts about Allawi's account, not because I doubt that bad things are happening, but because I doubt the average Iraqi feels things are "worse than" or "as bad as" they were under Saddam. And given that Allawi does not appear to have returned to his bombing ways, a course of action he felt was justifiable under Saddam, I doubt he truly thinks they are either. Sounds like mere political opportunism from here. As for your claims about Reagan: So what? Does the fact that a Republican president supported this guy somehow absolve the later Democratic president who did so from all responsibility? I thought the Democrats were supposed to do things better, to have a more nuanced foreign policy, and to be more in tune with the people. I didn't realize that part of the Democratic platform was that they get to make all the same mistakes the Republicans make, but that it's not their fault since the Republicans did it first. Now that I know that, I see that there really is no reason to vote for them, since I'm just going to get the same bad results with even less willingness to take responsibility. What a waste.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    At least PPJ admits that 9/11 was used an excuse to invade Iraq by the Neocons. Of course, it was the catalyzing event referred to in their blueprint for world domination. No surprise there. And by now it's no surprise that he thinks this is all totally acceptable. Bizarro World must be an interesting place to dwell. Things like facts and logic can be totally ignored on a more or less permanent basis, apparently.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    I've simply suggested that confirmation of his claims from an objective source would be helpful.
    Sorry man, you're crap outta luck. All objective sources have either 1.) fled Iraq because the security situation is untenable, or 2.) they are currently being detained, tortured, or beaten.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    I'm sorry...replace "beaten" with "disappeared" in the above post.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    GregZ - Well, at least I usually say something... besides just attaking the comment. ClayP - For your reading pleasure.
    The report goes on to say that no evidence was unearthed of a "collaborative operational relationship" or Iraqi cooperation in the 9/11 attacks. However, the existence of bin Ladin/al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein/Iraq connections, over a number of years, is indisputable.
    Repack - Thanks for making my point. If you wait to find formal alliances, you will grow old and frustrated. If you view the bigger picture, the cooperation is clear. You do remember Saddam paying off the terrorists attack Israel don't you?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#29)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    You do remember Saddam paying off the terrorists attack Israel don't you? Are you telling me that we killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and tortured thousands of others and borrowed 300 billion dollars from China and destroyed our military capacity because Saddam made a cheap public relations gesture toward a third country that has shown that it is quite capable of defending itself? A country that took no part what you are saying is the response? But that would be moronic, so I must have misunderstood if I thought you used that to justify the invasion.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    So, out of all the rethug apologists, all I hear is 'we're not as bad as SH.' Great metric fellas!

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    He probably really does think that someone, somewhere, in a galaxy far, far away might believe that as a justification for the invasion.
    Fear means never having to dig very deep, never having to ask serious questions of the self. There, there now. Don't bother thinking for yourself. Let the priests and the government CEOs and the war hawks make it all better. Boom boom crush snicker.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    PPJ- The National Review is the best you can do? Seriously? Your ability to absorb and regurgitate right-wing blather, while impressive, doesn't qualify as evidence. Once again, the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission on the "connection" between Iraq and al Qaeda was (please read slowly):
    ...we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.
    You have better information than they had? This is your big opportunity. Let's see some evidence, PPJ. Not wishful conjecture by right-wing sycophants...evidence. Not more ludicrous barking about how those who don't believe are "un-American"...evidence. Not more desperate, flailing prestidigitation...evidence. We won't see it because you don't have it. Despite all your beligerent and numerous efforts, you can't simply will it into existence.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    ClayP - Look at the qualifiers used by the bureaucrats... And then look at what Fitzgerald said:
    And then we had information from al-Fadl, who we believe was truthful, learning from others that there were also was efforts to try to work with Iraq. That was the basis for what we put in that indictment. Clearly, we put Sudan in the first order at that time as being the partner of al Qaeda. We understood the relationship with Iran but Iraq, we understood, went from a position where they were working against each other to a standing down against each other. And we understood they were going to explore the possibility of working on weapons together.
    Fitzgerald You have nothing but a lot of "we don't belive" words. I have people who say what they were doing. Note the "people." That means more than one. Show me the money, ClayP. As they say in Vegas, money talks and BS walks. Be sure you have a good pair of shoes.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Nope...not this time, PPJ. You're not turning it around. A statement riddled with language like "efforts to try to work with Iraq" and "explore the possibility of working on weapons together" does not (I repeat does not) indicate a working relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. Not even really a nice try, PPJ. Let's see evidence.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Then tendency of the long-abused to themselves become abusers is a powerful one indeed. Abuse and violence and dysfunction breed the same. The longer it continues, the more difficult the chain to break. We are learning that difficult lesson. Unfortunately we are led by people who evidently thought the lessons would be simple. Fools, fools, fools...

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    I fine it amazing that everyone is arguing about irrelevant details and is not talking about the big picture. Allwai has been an American stooge. That is why he never was able to generate much political suppport within Iraq. With Congressional elections coming up, poll numbers in the toilet and American support for the war evaporating, and also given that the most important thing to the Rethugs is to maintain power at all costs Allwai comments are a prelude to the justification for US withdrawl. Its clear we cant declare victory and leave so the next best thing is: we are preventing the situation from getting better. So by us leaving everything will be fine, It should be pointed out that we only have to start pulling out to get the PR benefit, the soldiers dont have to come home they could go to Saudi Arabia, and once the US elections are over who knows. Sometimes 2+2 does equal 4

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    ClayP - Read what Fitzgerald said:
    And then we had information from al-Fadl, who we believe was truthful,
    Read what this judge said.
    A federal judge in New York City on Wednesday found Iraq among those liable for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and awarded nearly $104 million to the families of two men who died in the World Trade Center. The ruling by U.S. District Judge Harold Baer marked the first time that a court had pinned some blame for the attacks on Iraq.
    Even the commission staff can only use qualifiers in their judgements, and even then they recognize that contacts were made.
    Notice that the Times is relying here on the testimony of a terrorist whose deputy was just captured in Iraq. And why would the relationship have to be "deep" to invalidate Cheney's comment? Because an irregular, marriage-of-convenience relationship existed between Hussein's Iraq and the terrorist network behind the 9/11 attacks, the Bush administration had no cause to worry about it?
    Link And read what SD said:
    Sometimes 2+2 does equal 4
    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Well done. Once again, we've let Jim hijack the thread. The point we should be discussing here is not whether Saddam caused 9/11 but how we managed to end up in a situation where Iraq was invaded under the auspices of bringing freedom, justice and an end to torture, and yet now we have a situation where Allawi, who was about as anti-Saddam as one could be, is claiming that things now are just as bad as they were before. So all those lives and all that money, all that killing, all that "staying the course" and "standing together" and "supporting the troops" have been in vain. How awfully tragic. How criminally, disgustingly, awfully tragic. How sick. Because don't forget that the people who invoked all the lies we were fed to suppport this huge crime are all extremely cosy with those who have made unimaginably vast amounts of money from this whole disaster. Some people are getting rich through all of this. Very, very rich. It's all good business for them. All the killing, the bombs, the Humvees, the helicopters, the rockets, the bullets, the logistics, the laundry. It makes Bush's friends and Cheney's colleagues richer and richer and richer. This is more than an outrage, it's a shameful, disgusting, inhuman, immoral disaster. A perversion of everything that we are supposed to stand for and care about. Let's get angry about it and shout it out to those who lied and lied and lied and who used good people's good faith against them to further their own despicable greed for wealth and power. They are destroying us. It has to stop. So let's not get diverted by Jim into debating the 9/11 question again. He knows it's an easy way to divert attention away from what his criminal leaders are doing and have done. Divert, deny and dissemble. Reframe, reframe, reframe. I despise what he does, what he stands for and all the glib self-satisfied crap that he spews. He is an apologist for some of the very filthiest criminals that have ever soiled this planet, and I hope that one day he realises this and understands what he has done, but frankly I think the realisation would finally kill him off for good. We all know that the 9/11 link was a load of crap, just like we all know that WMD was a lie too. But let's focus on the fact that the final, ostensibly moralistic fall-back position which the Bush administration came up with after the others failed is now also shown to be a complete lie. It is a crime, and it cannot be ignored, and we must not allow the likes of Jim to divert our attention.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Repack - No. I was telling you to read the link. And you knew that. Why try to twist my position? That's dishonest. and ClayP... Prove Fitzgerald wrong. Prove the Judge wrong... and on and on. Yoy offer no proof, just denial... Is the earth round? ClayP: No. The Pope has spoken on that. And I reject all your proof...

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Ian - Why don't you read before you attack? My very first comment said:
    Remember that the current terrorist attacks are basically a mixture of Suni/Baath/al-Qaeda terrorists seeking to overthrow the government. How would you prevent these thugs from attacking and killing? I would agree that the torture, etc., being described is bad, but certainly not as bad as under Saddam. I.e. There is now a capability to correct them that doesn't require that an outside force invades again with the death and destruction that caused.
    I asked a question, how would you prevent what is going on, given the terrorist attacks, noting that there now exists a government that tolerates comments such as the ones made by Allawi. Under Saddam he would have been fed through an industrial size paper shredder, feet first. It is your side who converted the thread into a discussion of the obvious connection between terrorists and Saddam. Read Repack's reply. He would impeach the President and VP, and throws in a destruction comment about the US. I merely pointed where I had last seen destruction, and your side immediately assumed its defensive posture regarding Iraq and 9/11. And you do that, Ian, because if you admit Iraq's involvement, then your whole premise crumbles. Is anyone here dumb enough to think that wouldn't increase the torture and killing in Iraq as we withdraw and that country falls into chaos? Come on, Ian. My comment was on target and my question real. Your problem is you want to don sack cloth and cover yourself with ashes bemoaning things while blaming Bush rather than look at where we are, and finding some workable, doable solutions. I ask again. Given where we are, what would you do?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#41)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    I say we change the name of the blog to "PPJ spouts BS" TL I hope he gives you enough money to make up for the bandwidth associated with this unaldultrated nonsense and repeated distortions. Oh I forgot the truth doen't count here only that you are polite. Typical democrat, while the right pounds you over the head with a hammer the left just says "whyy cant we all get along" The meek shall inherit the earth, they will be the first ones buried when the going gets tough.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    SD - Why don't you answer the question instead of complaining? How to fix the problem that is defined in the post, and what caused it, would be interesting. Instead, all you do is attack. Let me make it simple for you. How do you determine if the situation is as described? It may not be real; it may not be as bad, it may be worse. Let us assume that it is as described. How do you fix the problem, given that the Iraqi government would have to agree with your solution? If some of the torture is revenge based, by the Shia, how do you restrain them and still convince them that democracy is good and they must obey the laws, and respect the rights of minorities? Ditto for the Kurds, although they are a minority. If some of the torture is terrorist based by the Sunni/Baath/terrorists, how do you stop that? I mean besides finding and killing them. Is it possible to convince them to come in and accept democracy? The Sunni/Baath might. The terrorists never will. Lots of things in there, SD. Let's hear some answers.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#43)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    PPJ no one put you in charge of driving the discussion. the discussion here is pointless as Allwai's assertions are aimed at helping the US justify its impending troop withdrawl. Secondly, its much worse than what he says. Go read the Journal Riverbend by the secular Iraqi woman who lives in Baghdad. Or try google sometime or read something other than NRO or the washington times. As has been reported for months now the intersect killing has been through the roof. There have been reports from the morgue in baghdad detailing the amount of non-military killing. many people feel that the civil war has already started although one can debate that. Since the US does not have enough troops to stop any off this or secure the road to the airport or the green zone, there iusn't a damn thing you can do about it. so 2000 american dead for what? Nothing thats what.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    PPJ...the solution is to send the foreign troops home now. They obviously can't stop or even slow the attacks and they are probably doing more to instigate an uprising than anything else. I suggest replacing them with a volunteer army of war supporters who can buy their own body armor and plane tickets to Iraq. No sense in wasting any more tax dollars or soldier's blood on this nasty little business deal. Ian is right, the U.S. and British oligarchy are gorging on blood money these days. Thanks to Bush and Blair, who both should be put on trial alongside Saddam. Any more questions?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    BTW many of us are still trying to earn a living for our families and dont have time to respone to the mountain of inane comments you make every day. But that is your purpose to discourge discussion, to kidnap threads and derail any existing discussion with your inane crap which has already been completely debunked over and over and over. But you and TL have one thing in comon no concern for the truth. Although you are far worse for your intent.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    PPJ and TL I give up. This blog has become a complete waste of time, the comments dominated by one dishonest person intent on dominating discussing or at least derailing it so as to divert. Since arguments get debunked over and over and over, and yet he is allowed to continue can only mean that you approve of these tactics TL. This is much like the Dems in general who will not stand up for any principle. I go away and come back months later and nothing has changed. he has driven Conscious angel away, he and his ilk poked and prodded Paul until he lost his cool, much like has been done to me. So whats the point. Why don't you just change the name to reflect this. The country is in real trouble and we have to wade through tons of crap still pushing a Saddam link to AlQaeda? I don't have time for this meaningless nonsense. We should be discussing how to stop whats going on and how to fix it not responding to the 50th time why PPJ interpretation of the Kay report is nonsense. Isn't anyone going to stand up to the Rethug disinformation campaign. Apparently not. I'm outta here. This time for good.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Soccerdad, I'm sorry you feel that way. There's no reason you have to respond to Jim rather than state your own thoughts. Why not just ignore him? He hasn't violated the comment rules and I have no reason to ban him. It would be just censorship. His comments have his name at the top. Why don't you try not reading them and scrolling by?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    soccerdad, You contribute good intelligent thoughts and comments here. If you let one person drive you away we all lose your input. You've suggested to others here before here that if you want to get under his skin "ignore him"... TL's solution sounds reasonable, don't you think?

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#49)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    sd, Care for a tool to automatically remove or abbreviate comments from Jim? It doesn't exist yet, but I'm a software engineer and I could probably whip up a Firefox plugin pretty easily. I've been toying with the idea for a while, but TL typically independently decides to limit or ban people at about the time I think they're fit to ignore.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#50)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    S-dad: Come back Shane.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#51)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    With all their jingoism, all their affected patriotism, the bringers and defenders of the GOP agenda eventually managed to achieve what one would never have thought possible: they have replaced the high seriousness of 9/11 with high comedic spin. Anyone who lets themselves get frustrated by the Saddam-9/11 rhetoric needs to take a deep breath and remember that what worked in 2002 was ghastly, but that it no longer works. Unlike three years ago, polls consistently show that the vast majority of Americans know these are wholly separate issues. Do not therefore be outraged when an apologist, be it a Hannity or a "Poker Player," bereft of all logic, resorts to grunting "9/11!" at the top of their lungs, as if that utterance somehow adds something of substance to their argument. It is funny and sad at the same time, but nothing to get worked up about.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    a Hannity or a "Poker Player," bereft of all logic, resorts to grunting "9/11!" at the top of their lungs
    In the caves beneath the soil, the rats are scurrying around trying to find exits that won’t let them out in the bright daylight. ...the rats are roaring like wounded tigers. The age of darkness has arrived and nothing can be seen, no light is getting through to the interior of the cave from the outside world.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#53)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    I'm gonna miss soccerdad, and I have to say I agree with him. It is one thing to engage in honest debate, quite another to constantly throw out strawmen, personal attacks and the same disproven links over and over. IOW, it's not the heat, it's the stupidity. So, back on track: an iraqi (the former PM and cia asset), in iraq, says that human rights abuses are the same as under saddam. Facts bear this out. Torture rooms; rapes; secret detentions; chemical weapons used in civilian populations. Yet the 101st keyboarders (none of whom have actually been to iraq) deny the legitimacy of his claim. Funny, they didn't mind going to war with his earlier claims.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    Soc, I've stayed with it here mostly due to the posting of a few like minded folks. Glanton, Dadler, and yourself come to mind. I have been able to ignore PPJ, mainly because I believe him to honestly believe everything he writes (regardless of what I might think of it). For me it has been increasingly difficult to stomach the dishonest spin coming from the right with Ras and from the middle with Paul in LaLa. Ras in particular, as he is truly a master in the art of twisting the meaning of words and destroying language. He may be somewhat polite, but he was an active and effective articulator of disinformation during the '04 election run-up - so much so that it took over the entire discussion on almost every thread. As for TL, although it appears that her hot button issues are not always in step with mine - and despite continuing to appear on Fox News against my advice (meant tongue-in-cheek), there is enough in her words to encourage me that she isn't a centrist and is progressive where it matters. Perhaps not as clearly evident in her writings as your co-authors at the Left Coaster, but solid nonetheless. Your commentary and those of other real progressives here helps make this blog an interesting read. I encourage you to stick around and add context in circumstances where it's needed and/or adds to the discussion.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    Wow...go to work for the day and look what happens. To soccerdad, Please accept my humble apologies, as I feel I am at least 51% responsible for the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I participated willingly in this thread-jack, and probably shouldn't have. But after four solid years of being inundated with this noxious crap, it's hard to resist the opportunity to hold people like PPJ responsible for the nonsense they peddle. Regardless, I genuinely hope you'll reconsider.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    soccerdad? "A word to the wise is infuriating." --Hunter S. Thompson

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    SD - Well, since you are out of here this is probably useless, but you write:
    PPJ no one put you in charge of driving the discussion.
    I didn't drive the discussion. I read the post and made some comments which basically invited Neil (or anyone) to comment on what could be done. Again. Your side ran off in all directions, starting with Repack. And when I refocused on the original post, and make specific comments, you again complain. Let's face it, SD. We don't like each other. Works for me. edgey - What gets under my skin is people inviting me to shoot themselves, and meaning it. And I again note you have a talent for writing purple prose. There must be a market for it. et al - You don't want a debate, you want an echo chamber. You want "I'm okay - you're okay." Facts are, none of us meet that qualification. Difference is, I never claimed to.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#58)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    Jim, even as you paint with that big ole brush of yours, you have to know you're lying with that echo chamber comment. If you don't, that is sad. When we all say the world is not flat, we're not being an echo chamber; it's a simple fact we need to all accept and move on with our lives. And when someone keeps coming in with "links" that "prove" the world is flat, and everyone points out how annoying that is, that isn't being an echo chamber either. As for me, this is the only blog or even political website I ever visit that is not strongly right of center; for example, almost daily I visit NewsMax, Townhall, Fox News, and Captain's Quarters. I do such things because 1)It's good to know what your enemy is doing; 2)It's fun to notice when you, JR, and the like copy 'hot off the presses' talking points on new TL threads, yet pass them off as your own "ideas"; 3)On rare occasion I actually encounter a real, substantial challenge to my own biases, usually from some wiseacre libertarian. "Echo chamber" that, thou wily, unprincipled, mythic blogger.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#59)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    soccerdad In a way you have to admire PPJ because he manages to stick to his beliefs in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    Glanton - I will be glad to. An echo chamber is a chamber. A single room. It has no others. My claim is that some who comment here want only to hear the echoes from their statements in that chamber, and they want that chamber to be TalkLeft. They want no other view points. And they want to control the editorial content and the commenting policy to obtain that. And now SD, and those who support him, chastise TL for not doing as they wish. I have never commented on the editorial content. I have never demanded that someone leave the blog. That is because I value free speech, and because I value different view points. And I don't mind the rough and tumble of debates. I can accept the well turned "zap" with a grin and try to return the favor. What I do find objectionable is the vulgar, personal attacks that have nothing to say, and are on the level of locker room chatter. And these from people who apparently consider themselves among the elites. But even then I try to refrain from blind retaliation. And it is a "if the shoe fits situation." As I said, "et al." Perhaps I should have been plainer. If it doesn't fit you, so be it. I am pleased to know it. As for me, I very rarely post on other blogs, although I read many. But not to know my "enemies." And despite your claim, I do not believe you mean that statement either.

    Re: Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Sadda (none / 0) (#61)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    Jim, that's all I was asking, a simple recognition that not everyone in your "et al" seeks an echo chamber in coming here. I wouldn't come here near as much as I do if there weren't such an odd blend of libertarians, lefties, centrists, wingers, and on and on. Your own commitment to free speech I do not question, and I agree with you that SD seriously errs in leaving because someone else's voice frustrates him. And I hope he comes back because I enjoy his posts. As for the term "enemies," I am glad that you recognize that I of course employ it not militarily, but figuratively.

    Human Rights Abuses Now : Same as Under Saddam | 61 comments (61 topical)