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Burying Our College Kids With Debt

By Jeralyn, Section Social Justice
Posted on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 11:00:12 PM EST
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Susie at Suburban Guerilla:

Growing student debt, fast-shrinking student aid and few well-paying jobs upon graduation – why are we urging kids to go to college?

Say hello to the new debtor class:

The average student now graduates with three and a half times more debt than ten years ago, but still Washington wants to cut even more student aid.

I wonder if Congress has a stereo system in its chambers. I'd love for someone to put on Grace Slick singing "Feed Your Head."

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    Burying Our College Kids With Debt | 41 comments (41 topical)
    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#1)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Sure college is pricey but if you want the education you should pay for it yourself as people did before all the student aid schemes. Tough? Sure it is but at this point I don't see any reason why someone who could not attend college and is now in the work force should have to pay for someone who has the time and opportunity to attend. Perhaps if there were less Spring Break partying and fewer instructors hawking poorly written overpriced books as required reading for thier students It would be easier to pay for school. Anything worth having is worth working for it.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#2)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    As a privalidged young man I attended a top 20 universtiy on my parents dime so I must through full disclosure admit that I may not be qualified to pontificate. However both my parents attended good universities and my father medical school on their parents dime and my grandparents were middle class and had to take out loans to afford it. Why do parents now, in many cases, make their children carry the largest burden? Not to cast judgement but in my parents day it seems that it was more the norm for the parents to make the greater sacrafice so that their children could have a better future. I had many freinds in school who's parents could have afforded or at least attempted to pick up much of the burden but instead let their children become saddled with debt. Why is it more common now for students to pick up that tab?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Why is it more common now for students to pick up that tab?
    Perhaps because of the easy availability of student loans. Why would parents feel like paying the portion of the bill that could be covered by low-interest loans that don't have to be repayed until after the kid has a degree? (My own disclosure: I got a hefty state-funded scholarship)

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#4)
    by oldtree on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    corporate world owns jobs people aspire to the jobs and go to college as our factory workers have found out, their jobs go away to other countries our college educated kids join a machine that offers no job security, and has carefully worded contracts to prevent them from having any rights at all the world is clearly in a very poor balance, the yin does not agree with the yang. How is it the scum still rises to the top? 'white rabbit" (feed your head) by the jefferson airplane. when it was young it was a statement about exploration and hope, and breaking from the known rules. good analogy, time for a change

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    When did you go to school Slado? The cost of higher education has increased at a far greater rate than general inflation. I would guess most parents can't afford to help out like in the past. Financial aid ain't always the answer either. Though my parents are working class and didn't have an extra 10 grand a year laying around for college, I didn't qualify for any financial aid. Loans were the only option. Hard to imagine that city college used to be free. Imagine that...FREE! What a bunch of socialists we used to be!

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#6)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Hard to imagine that city college used to be free.
    Because, of course, it was never actually free. People were just forced to pay for it regardless of whether they used it.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Fair enough roy. I would argue for the greater good ( a well educated populace). The people are always forced to pay for something, except nowadays it ain't a free higher education for the less fortunate, or health care. It's unnecessary weapons and god knows what.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Obviously we all agree we're going to have to pay for something. Taxes are a necessary part of the state. However, as a student in college I can tell you aide is simply not covering much of anything. Education should be our primary concern. The programs being cut are those that help the lowest incomes. Doing this only continues the cycle of poverty. So many feel they simply can't afford college, and honestly those of us in the lower classes can't. I come from a family split with one side lowest class minority and one side middle class suburban. Between the two, looking at what we've created as options for the lower class, a life without college is death. IT should not be this way. But it is. Death or debt; that is the choice we live with. Our structure needs alteration if my generation is ever going to have something to trust in.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Is it really that difficult to understand this........Government financing of a college education is the entire reason that a college education is now out of most peoples financial reach. In exactly the same way a third party pay system has made paying for most medical procedures completely out of reach for the average Joe, now college tuition is way out of reach for the average Joe. If you want college tuition (or health care costs) to be affordable again, the person who is receiving or consuming the goods, must be the person who is paying for them. In other words if you want affordable tuition, get rid of government assistance. If you want affordable health care, sign on to tax free savings plans and eventually do away with government assistance and insurance companies. These are simple supply and demand economic principles and they are undeniable and irrefutable.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    jimcee and Variable make some good points here. My view - take the money you would have spent on college and start a construction co. or intenet biz or whatever. Work hard. You'll most likely make way more money than most college grads will.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#11)
    by Joe Bob on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    There are some really asinine comments here. Frankly, I'm dumbfounded. It's the old 'if you're so smart why aren't you rich?' idiocy. Here's a simple math concept for you. Over a ten-year period wages increase 3% per year and college tuition increases 10% per year. Does this make college more affordable or less affordable for today's freshman students? That is, is it as easy to work your way through school now as it was 10 years ago? Obviously, NO. I like to check in on my old alma mater from time to time and recently noted that tuition, room and board came to a tidy $36,000/year. I don't know many 18-year-olds who could handle that on a pay-as-you-go basis. Similarly, I don't know many 21-year-olds who get an entry-level job that can fund payments on a $150,000 loan balance. May as well leave college to the kids smart enough to have rich parents. People who didn't go to college shouldn't have to pay for those that do? Gee jimcee, I don't have children in the public schools - could I just strike that school levy off my property taxes? Now that I think about it, I don't drive my car very much. How about this: we set up a toll booth every other block and charge people only for the streets they drive on. Then we can have a big tax cut and feel extra thankful for all the roads...

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Well said Joe Bob. I think Variable is saying if the govt., with taxpayer money, stopped providing financial aid, your alma mater would only cost 3600 per year as opposed to 36,000. Or some other such nonsense. Yes Variable, it is difficult to understand. Common sense tells me if the govt. stopped providing taxpayer funds for financial aid, there would be less people in college, and tuition would have to increase in order for the college to meet overhead. Where am I going wrong?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Colleges reduce their overhead, among about a zillion other things.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Again, KDog, simple Econ 101...... The govt cuts off aid. There will be a huge customer exodus from universities. This will leave supply (classroom seats) the same, and at the same time drastically reduce demand (students who want to continue their education). You end up with enormous supply and little demand, and consequently price drops like a brick. Yes temporarily it would close some universities, yes it would temporarily create financial hardships for students, yes temporarily it would not serve the greater goods goal of and educated citizenry, but in the long run, after universities learned to stand on their own two feet and quit suckling off Uncle Sam's tit, we would end up with reasonable tuition and efficient universities offering a strong product.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#15)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    I'm all for colorful imagery, but could we drop "Uncle Sam's tit" from the Free Marketeers' book of metaphors?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#16)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Joe Bob Excellent point. I would like to add that the reason that tuition has gone up in recent years was because of budget problems in many state legislatures caused by the last recession. As a result, the percentage of funding that state colleges and universities received from the state legislatures has gone down dramatically, leaving students to foot the bill. As noted in the article, the Bush administration and GOP Congress have been cutting financial aid programs in order to keep the federal budget in line. Students, especially middle class students, are caught in the middle. Because of increased tuition, more and more middle class students need financial aid, but because of the Iraqi war, tax breaks, etc., it is becoming more difficult to fund domestic programs without busting the budget (more than it already is). Despite some of the comments made by some, I don't believe conservatives are against providing financial aid. For example, here in Florida there is widespread support for a merit based financial aid program called Bright Futures from both conservatives and liberals. However, there are consequences to fighting an unnecessary war and giving unneeded tax breaks to the wealthy. One of them is that there is not enough money left in the pot to provide the financial aid that middle class and poor students need today.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Kdog As for when I went to school. class of 1996 I wonder as a percent of population how many people now attend 4 year universities? I would assume more then even 20 years ago but I don't know. Demand is up, the level of education is up and it's a big industry now. Also are people's expectations too high? Maybe as sarcastic said we should skip college but better yet skip the high priced colleges for your local community college and then just two years at the state U or subsiquant West, South, East Middle versions. There are several ways to skin the educational cat but I think people get stuck on going to a certain school and then wonder 4 and now probably 5 years later why they paid so much for a piece of paper. I work at a company that has non degree holders, degree holders from state and private universities. Other then meeting my wife at school did going to my expensive, now even more so, private schoold do more for me then my hometown Comm. College and State University? Probably not.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Since we are exporting our non-college degree jobs overseas, it is becoming more and more important to have a college degree. (See GM laysoff 30,000 americans while increasing India workforce by 30%.) My Dad got a free college ed thru the GI bill. He paid 100's of times more in taxes than his education cost the gov't. I got loans and grants and have paid back in taxes 10's of times more (so far). Neither one of us would have been able to do that without a college ed. A college education is an investment that society makes, and it pays off, in money, in production, in inventions. Therefore we should invest more $$, not less.
    As a privalidged young man I attended a top 20 universtiy on my parents dime
    Obviously they didn't get their money's worth. The whole bit is just another continuation of the War On the Poor that bushco has made his agenda. Cut taxes for the rich, cut food for the poor. Cut college loans so there is a ready source of fodder for the military.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    "Since we are exporting our non-college degree jobs overseas," Don't think its just non-college degree jobs, Sailor. For example a friend of mine has much of his business's law work done in India. The Indians use the US/Cali law codes and do the work that would normally be done by my friend's US law firm's associates. His US firm's principle then reviews and signs off on the work, and my friend saves about 90%. I'm not sure exactly what your point is about taxes v. loans/grants, but if you think you couldn't make a good living w/o a college degree, I think you are selling yourself way short.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#20)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    suo, I agree it's not just blue collar jobs being exported. And your friend should be ashamed. I wonder if his billing records reflect that his researchers are outsourced, or is he still charging clients as if Americans were doing the work.
    I'm not sure exactly what your point is about taxes v. loans/grants, but if you think you couldn't make a good living w/o a college degree, I think you are selling yourself way short.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence, but are you really suggesting that a college degree doesn't mean a significantly greater salary potential? And the higher the salary the more taxes paid. There's a reason we have compulsory schooling, and a reason that it is shared economic responsibility whether you have kids or not. Today's college is like yesterday's high school, it'spretty much necessary to get anything beyond a McJob.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    Sailor, I was not clear. My friend's co. is a (new) software co. Not a law firm. He gets the associate-level law work he needs for his software co. done by Indian attorneys at a very low cost, and then has "his" US attorney review and sign off on the work. My other point is not that high school grads in general make more than college grads - they don't - but that lacking a college degree does not by definition doom one to low wages. I live in LA, there are many wealthy professionals here. There are also just as many wealthy non-college degreed business owners. It's amazing what effect owning assets has on wealth accumulation, and/or just plain old making a good living, in contrast to earning a good wage.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#22)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    sarcastic I don't often agree with you but you are correct. There are many training programs offered by community colleges and vocational schools that will enable a person to make as much as (and in some cases more) than a person with a college degree. Not everyone should go to college. For many people, these programs are the best option. I know this sounds like a cliche but we need a highly educated workforce to be able to compete in a global economy. That is why I can't understand the Bush administration's cuts in job training programs and their financial aid cuts for college students.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    College is a big scam for middle class kids who borrow $30,000 thinking it will give them an "easy life" but then they graduate, no one cares to hire them if they don't have any connections (college grads are a dime a dozen) and they are saddled with debt that can never be discharged in bankruptcy.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:31 PM EST
    but are you really suggesting that a college degree doesn't mean a significantly greater salary potential?
    With the exception of vocational programs like engineering, exactly what skills does the typical college student learn in college that makes it worth tens of thousands of dollars?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Well, golly stacy, why not provide links to why col grads don't earn more money than high school grads!?
    With the exception of vocational programs like engineering
    Vocational programs like 'engineering'!? Gee, last time I looked engineers, (like me) went to college, we have BS, MS, PhDs. Unless you mean 'maintenance engineers' or 'domestic engineers'. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Heck, I'm married to a domestic engineer, just because she was a doctor before I married her has nutin' to do wit' it.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    I'm not sure why some on this thread are trying to turn it into a Buchco bash because this has been a problem long before they came along but then again this is TL. I do believe that a college education is a good thing but as has been said earlier it isn't the be all to end all. You still need to work hard and have some luck to make it in life. If you choose to go to university then you should pay for it yourself whether through work, military service, scholarship, loans or your parents generosity. Kdog, As far as City College in NYC being free to students, that started in 1969 I believe. They accepted anyone regardless of thier competency (open admissions) and sent them through remedial courses just to make it to 101 level classes. The drop out rate soared and the poor man's Harvard became a joke and it's diploma not worth the paper it was printed on and cost the taxpayers a bundle. I've worked in industry (blue collar and it sucked), the military, heavy construction, the music business, I put out forest fires, did property abstracting and now I restore oil paintings and other fine art and work for myself. I am comfortable, own two homes, two cars, sent my kid to college I but will never be rich. My wife also works in the Arts. Both of us without the benefit of a college education. It can be done but it is hard work. Get used to it, I did.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    uhhh,
    if you choose to go to university then you should pay for it yourself
    But one can't attend college until one can pay for it, and one can't pay for it unless you go to college. Sheesh, are we so far along in this debate that Catch 22 is no longer in force!? BTW, jimcee, exactly what was your method?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#28)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    I think its becoming obvious from this discussion which political party is in favor of helping students go to college. For most people in order to get ahead you need to go to college. This is supported by statistics (of course there are exceptions). By the way there are also other reasons to go to college besides making more money.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    Sailor, There is no catch-22, justy hard work and a little luck. I wasn't really ready for college at 18 and so went to work and earned everything I had. My son worked to help pay for his education and it took him 6yrs instead of 4yrs. I also took out a mortgage on one of my already paid for homes to help him out and he has paid me back in full because he wasn't afraid of hard work either. Obviously you think that everyone owes you a college education and that makes you a spoiled child. John Horse, I do not belong to a political party because of the idiots on both sides who can't think beyond thier spoon fed party lines but I guess I don't fit into one of your little stereotypes.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#30)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    and so went to work and earned everything I had.
    And on that, I need to remind people that our current preznit went to school on his daddy's dime and still got voted into office... he did not earn anything he has received...

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    "For most people in order to get ahead you need to go to college. This is supported by statistics" john horse, I think the statistics show that in general people w/college degrees make more money than those w/o degrees. Whether or not college was "needed" for these people to get ahead is an inference the statistics have absolutely no relevance to. For most people what's needed to get ahead is enough desire to do so. This is coming from a guy from a highly educated family and two young kids who are absolutely going to college. My wife and I both paid our own way through college by working 80 hour weeks as summer door-to-door salesmen for the Southwestern Co. out of Nashville, TN, selling educational books for kids. As well as various school-year jobs. There are plenty of other options for those who care to look for them. Just about anybody can do it, you just need to want to do it badly enough.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#32)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Sailor Obviously they didn't get their money's worth. I believe I was asking open ended questions to get a little debate started and you attacked me personaly? Nice. You obviuosly didn't aquire the people and debating skill set that most of us picked up at college. What type of socidety do we want to live in? The European model is only the rich or highly qualified get to go to school. Is that what Sailor would prefer? A two tier system for the smart and elite? See European Medical Care. I know of no country in the world where everyone deserving gets a college education. Most have strong testing requirements that limit those who can attend so the system doesn't get overwhelmed, and of course the privlidged and well connected get inharent and overt advantages. Or better yet they pay tons of money to send them to our universities. Instead of griping about tuition how bout some solutions in place of Bush bashing and personal attacks?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#33)
    by Joe Bob on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    I really don't buy the proposition that cutting financial aid would bring down college costs. I suspect this rationale is the product of some variation of supply-side dogmatism. You would have to assume that the schools were 'overcharging' in some way. If that were the case, where do all the inflated tuition payments go? Lavish faculty salaries? State of the art facilities?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#34)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Joe Bob, Did you ever notice that anytime a person/company gets into a bit of a spot, financially, they find some way of cutting unnecassary expenses? And maybe the corallary is that expenses always seem to rise to meet income?

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    jimcee...Don't confuse me with a big college fan, I think it's over priced and unnecessary, except for the professions that require it. I dropped out when I realized I was wasting my money and not learning anything of value. My point is, if we are stuck with a huge money spending bueracracy, lets spend it on good stuff. Education, health care, the poor, foreign aid etc. Give a kid from modest means some help to be an engineer, a doctor without starting 30 grand in the hole. A noble effort in my eyes. Not more weapons, wars, bridges to nowhere, corporate handouts, wars on drugs, the FCC, etc. But we are stuck with the huge bueracracy absent a total makeover of the govt.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#36)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    You obviuosly ... socidety... bout
    Slado, I've read your posts before, I never recall you being interested or even accomplished in forms of debate. (but WTH, everyone makes typos, especially me with low vision and antiquated software at home to make up for it.)
    Not to cast judgement but in my parents day
    Uhh, would that be 1980!? Did you read any of the other posts? Inflation 3%, College Ed 10%. Your grand parents could not have afforded your parents college ed under those conditions. Once again, the whole country makes more money (even if just limited to taxes) by educating its citizens. Since it was in the dark ages, (AKA before you were born), you probably aren't aware that the GI Bill, and an huge influx of $$ into science education in k-12 was how we became on top of the world (ma*;-) Was it a personal attack? Maybe, but if you went to school on your parents dime at a 'top 20' (whatever the heck that means) university, I would think that you could at least spell. Frankly, from your posts, I'm finally starting to understand how GWB graduated Yale. * yeah, a gratuitous remark for filmophiles;-)

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#37)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Slado, The reason that the federal government has had to cut financial aid is because you can't continue to give huge tax breaks to the wealthy and fight a war without having to also reduce domestic programs. I get tired of hearing that anyone who proposes that something be done about this is accused of "Bush bashing." I get it. Republican wars and tax cuts are untouchable and off the table, but domestic programs aren't. jimcee If you don't need to go to college then why did your son go? Why didn't he sit it out until the price of tuition went down? If you should pay for it yourself, then why didn't you make your son pay for it himself? By the way, did your son go to a public college? Did you know that public colleges are subsidized by public taxes? I can't think of a better social investment than financial aid. Society gets reimbursed tenfold through higher taxes and increased productivity. That is why I can't understand those who propose making it more difficult to get an education. By the way, anyone who thinks that kids nowadays are getting an easy ride just doesn't know what they are talking about.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#38)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    i've been a faculty memeber at 2 univeristies and can shed maybe a little light on one or 2 issues. Why is tuition so high? Because they can charge it and people will pay. Its supply and demand coupled with elitism. The largest tuition increases generally occur at well known private colleges. Tuition room and board at the good private colleges are nudging 40k/year. Parents have come to rightly realize that going to college is not good enough. Its going to the elite college thats important. Not necessarily for the education but for the connections and networking. Kids are tutored pushed and prodded to achieve. At the moment, demographics are favorable so there is a reasonable supply of talented qualified applicants. So the parents are willing to pay under the belief that its crucial to go to such a school. The private schools realize that the key to their long term existance depends on being considered an elite school. They compete for the very best students. To maintain their elite status they must be able to show these prospective high achievers that they should come to that school. Schools like Harvard don't have to do anything but there is a another tier that do. They have to have good dorms, good professors, good labs etc. That costs money. In addition in order to keep their ranking (eg, US News) they need to get those great students who can't afford to pay so they do the robin hood thing, take some of the money from those that can pay and give to those who can't. The criteria for ranking includes things like SAT, QPA, etc of incoming students. Should people go to college? Well that depends on what your vision of the US economy is going to be. I went to college in 1968. Then it was clear that the road to a better life was going to college. This resulted from a confluence of a number of things, e.g. explosion of technology, for the most part a strong economy, etc. The middle class which emerged after WWII held this belief fairly strongly. It was a worker oriented period, there was a rise in unions, good paying jobs, and jobs in technology that were new and required training. The current economic paradigm is extremely different. It is neoliberal economics which has adopted globalization. In the neoliberal paradigm, the worker is not important. The only thing that is important is the corporation. To be judged successful a corp. must not only show a profit but steadily increase its profits. The pressures to reduce costs become enormous. You add to this a extremely large pool of talented foreign labor and you have the drive to move jobs to foreign countries. Its not just manufacturing put now its technical jobs. For example, GE recently opened its Medical Imaging research center in China while IBM's new research facility is in India. So the flow of jobs to foreign countries will continue. These will be jobs normally taken by the middle class. If globalization continues unchecked combined with the neo-liberal based economic paradigm then our standard of living must decrease. It can't be avoided. The standard of living in the foreign country will go up and ours will go down. The balance of the change is determined by the relative size of the populations. There are not enough service sectors jobs for everyone. As the former middle class then turns to the trades for jobs, that will exert downward pressure on wages for those professions. In the end there will be few jobs that require a college education, doctors, a few engineers to work in the defense industry etc. The booming place to find a job will be the military. So unless the neoliberal train can be slowed or derailed, a college education will be available only to the elite and a waste of time for everyone else. Another result of this process is the destruction of the middle class. So from a historical perspective its back to the future, to pre-WWII with a very severe stratifcation of wealth and society.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Mr Horse, My son went to univerisity because he wanted to. I guess I didn't make it clear that I loaned him the money to suppliment his own income that he worked for. He now has a degree but works in field he chooses that has nothing to do with his degree. He paid me back very quickly by working hard. He runs his own business and he's getting by for a 30yr old. Funny how things work out. Soccerdad, Perhaps you have spent too much time sheltered behind the Ivy walls. Corporations are made up of stockholders who are for the most part private individuals or thier pension/retirment funds. (I'm sure if you're in academia you are a member of TIAA-CREF and so you own stocks.) The other angle is that there are folks who run small machine shops in the old 'rust belt' areas that supply specialty parts to international clients which only came about because of the liberalisation of international trade policy. That would be my brother-in-Law. He was a machinist in a small wire mill before it closed. So he started his own really small shop, found a niche and filled it. He now employs six people whose skills otherwise would have been wasted or left the area. So tell me again why globalisation sucks? In academia globalisation is in the abstract, in real life it is making life easier for those that see a need and fill it.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Jimcee The old "I know one case therefore you are wrong" approach. I've been in industry for over 10 years so I've seen both sides So instead of telling us how your relatives made out why don't you tell us how millions of jobs are going to be generated that also pay a reasonable wage. Why dont you also tell us why the participation rate (labor force) is at an all time low and while you are at it explain to me why the increase in people who are underemployed will not stop. And finally explain to the people who recently got laid off by GM to be replaced in part by workers in India what they are going to do. Maybe you should post the addresss of the machine shop so they can all get work there.

    Re: Burying Our College Kids With Debt (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 24, 2005 at 12:55:03 PM EST
    Awww, the poor babies....most college kids are stupid and very anti-intellectual. I go to school right now and all I ever hear is how much students hate school and love it when classes get cancelled. All they care about is hooking up, partying, frats/sororities and their cell phones. I could careless about their student debt or in the precarious situations that they find themselves in once they graduate.

    Burying Our College Kids With Debt | 41 comments (41 topical)