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NYT: Viveca - Luskin Conversation Later Than We Thought

The New York Times details Time reporter Viveca Novak's conversation with Robert Luskin, lawyer for Karl Rove, that supposedly led to the discovery of the Rove-Hadley e-mail and Karl Rove's return to the grand jury in October, 2004, during which appearance he acknowledged his conversation with Matt Cooper.

As far as I can see, there is only one thing in the article that Jane of Firedoglake and I have not previously reported: While the subpoena for Novak-Luskin's conversations dates to May, 2004, sources tell the Times that the conversation at issue (when Novak told Luskin that Rove had talked to Cooper about Valerie Plame Wilson) didn't take place until late summer or early fall, 2004. This puts the conversation much closer to Rove's October 15, 2004 recantation to the grand jury. It also puts the conversation after Cooper was ordered jailed on August 6, 2004 for not complying with his subpoena about Libby and perhaps after his August 26, 2004 deposition about his conversation with Libby, which he provided to avoid going to jail.

It looks to me like Viveca Novak spoke to Luskin after Cooper's first deposition and probably after September 13, 2004 when Cooper received the second subpoena. (Court opinion detailing dates here (pdf).) Will Fitzgerald take this as a sign of spontaneity and poor memory by Rove that spares him from a perjury charge? Or will he believe that Rove only came forward after he found out from his lawyer that Cooper would cook his goose if forced to testify?

The Times also has a clarification on how the Hadley e-mail was discovered. I've noted previously that some sources say Luskin turned it over to Fitzgerald while others say the White House turned it over.

....after his conversation with Ms. Novak, who is not related to the columnist, Mr. Luskin asked Mr. Rove to have the White House search for any record of a discussion between Mr. Rove and Mr. Cooper around the time that Ms. Wilson's identity became public in July 2003.

There are a couple of loose ends here:

  • The discrepancy between Cooper and Rove's description of the call which Rove said centered around welfare reform while Cooper doesn't recall that being discussed. [Added note: See commenter below who takes issue with my use of the word "centered."]
  • Cooper's July, 2003 articles mention White House sources. How could Rove not remember his own conversation with Cooper when Cooper said Rove asked him to treat the conversation as "deep background?"

In fact, I told the grand jury, Rove told me the conversation was on deep background." I explained to the grand jury that I take the term to mean that I can use the material but not quote it, and that I must keep the identity of my source confidential.?

Cooper continues:

Rove went on to say that Wilson had not been sent to Niger by the director of the CIA and, I believe from my subsequent e-mails--although it's not in my notes--that Rove added that Dick Cheney didn't send him either. Indeed, the next day the Vice President's chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, told me Cheney had not been responsible for Wilson's mission.....Rove told me material was going to be declassified in the coming days that would cast doubt on Wilson's mission and his findings.

This is a lot more than a "I heard that too" type comment that Rove or anyone might have forgotten. It also seems like Rove and Libby may have spoken about Rove's call with Cooper - and that Libby's call the next day was meant to buttress what Rove told Cooper. How likely is it that Rove would have forgotten talking to Libby about Cooper as well talking to Cooper?

Bottom line: The call between Cooper and Rove is too detailed for Rove to have forgotten it. I think he erroneously calculated that Cooper wouldn't be forced to testify.

Now here's a question: When exactly did Luskin tell Fitzgerald about the Hadley e-mail? And when did Fitz schedule Rove's October 15 grand jury appearance? If the Luskin-Fitzgerald conversation about Rove's recovered memory took place before September 6, 2004, when Cooper received his second subpoena, and they set the October 15 grand jury date then, Rove has a stronger case. If it occurred after Cooper received his second subpoena, I think he has a weaker case.

But why did Luskin wait, as the Washington Post reported, until days before the Libby indictment in October, 2005 to tell Fitz about his Viveca Novak conversation?

Background: Viveca, Luskin and Fitzgerald: Do Dates Tell Us Anything?

Jane weighs in on today's Times article here.

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