home

Sunday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun Dec 11, 2005 at 11:45:10 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

I'll be out for the afternoon so I may miss the Tookie clemency announcement. Here's a place to discuss it, or anything else you want.

Kevin Drum has an interesting post up about our secret laws. Arthur covers torture. Avedon Carol of Sideshow has her usual excellent roundup of the blogoshpere, as does Memeorandum.

< Viveca Novak Takes Leave of Absence From Time | California High Court Denies Tookie Williams Latest Appeal >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Sunday Open Thread | 42 comments (42 topical)
    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    My take: What freakin' war on christians? If I say 'happy holidays' it means I am inclusive of all others who share this time. If I say 'merry christmas', it means all of my Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Kwanzaan, Wiccan friends are excluded. What is wrong with being inclusive, especially this time of year?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Any ideas on why Gov. Arnold is taking so long to decide on the fate of Williams. The latest news is that there will not be an announcement until Monday -- less than 24 hours before he is scheduled to be executed. Do you think it is because he is struggling with a decision or because he is going to deny clemency and wants to do it so close to the time of the execution so as to tamp down on the public protests. Any thoughts?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    et al - I don't think he is required to do or say anything.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    et al this was from the Novak thread. Menlo Bob wrote:
    Reporters should never be allowed to talk to people who have something to gain from conversation.
    Well, there goes the CIA leaks.
    Reporting should be about hurting the right people.
    Ooops. We just got the CIA leaks back. Sailor - Merry New Year.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    "
    We have 50 percent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3 percent of its population. . . In this situation we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will allow us to maintain this position of disparity. We should cease to talk about the raising of the living standards, human rights, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better." -- George Kennan, Director of Policy Planning of the U.S. Dept. of State, 1948


    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Ohhh, cia leaks! Remember when the wrongwingers on this site demanded (and folks such as myself endorsed) an investigation into who leaked the cia black sites? I wonder what happened to that? IOKIYAR

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Sailor, You can bet that those politicans calling for an investigation probably already know who did it and what party they are affiliated with. Including the Plame case. If Dems are calling for it, it's probably a GOP srew up and vice versa. That's my opinion anyway. Both parties are in on it, and like to keep the public as ill informed as possible.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Sailor here is the problem with the War on Christmas. The war on Christmas is being waged from a PC standpoint, not an attack on Christianity standpoint, though I have no doubt that the Madaline O'Hare and Michael Neaudow types are in the same camp in carrying out their war on Christianity... remember I don't have a problem with Happy Holiday's or Season's Greetings. The answer more percisely is because the war on Christmas is political correctness run amok. Specifically there are three problems with forcing Happy Holidays (voluntarally saying it is different.) First, this is a crusade by liberals to speak for a class of society who may not want to be spoken for. Not all athiests have a problem with Christmas. Ditto not all Muslims, Jewish, Hindu's etc. PC is presuming to speak for them, when they may not want to be spoken for. Second, this is trampling majority's rights, when the majority isn't trying to harm anyone. This isn't like using a racial epithat. If saying merry Christmas is bad because it forces Christmas on people, the ill of forcing people to say happy holidays is just as great. It is the same ill, only one side is saying merry Christmas, and the other side is saying you can't say merry Christmas. No difference. Third, this is causing more offense than it removes. Now if we were dealing with epithats or other hateful remarks, then that would not be a problem. Here, however, no one is saying merry Christmas to be untoward. Rather they are saying so to spread holiday cheer. More people are offended by the now allowing of the phrase merry Christmas, than who are spared an innocent merry Christmas. Keep in mind the Supreme Court has held that Christmas is a secular holiday as well as a religous holiday. They held so because Christians and nonChirstians alike celebrate Christmas.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Need your opinion: Online political news survey ($10 reward possible) Hello, all. My name is Daekyung Kim, a Ph.D. student studying journalism and mass communication in Southern Illinois University at Carbondale. I am emailing to ask you to do me a favor. I am now working on my dissertation whose topic is about online news and want to gather information about how and why Internet users are using news Web sites for political information based on an online survey. This online survey will approximately take 15-20 minutes to complete. After collecting the data, I will draw to pick up 50 respondents among those who complete this survey and each will be given $ 10 gift card. Your experience will be very useful in understanding how politically interested online users are using online news and the consequent effects on traditional news. Would you please spend some time to fill out this survey ? http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=594061481532 (please click on the address, OR if not working, copy it into the URL address) You can withdraw the survey at any time you want. All responses will be kept confidential and only be used for academic purposes. This survey has been reviewed and approved by the SIUC Human Subject Committee. So, there are no questions that may identify personal information. Thank you very much in advance for participating. Please email me back if you have further concerns or questions.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Tex, forget the PC crowd, you should be much more concerned about the people who have turned a religious holiday into a secular attempt to sell thousands of tons of cheap plastic crap made in Chinese prisons to American families.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    Happy Solstice and Merry Perihelion to all. My understanding is that human sacrifice is not required for this, or any other observance. I don't understand why so many people are being executed for Christmas this year. Usually we just have turkey or ham.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    SD - Of course you realize that living standards all over the world are much better thant they were 55 years ago. Mostly thanks to western civilization. Especially the US and England? Doesn't that just frost you? Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year. Tex. Well said.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    SD - Of course you realize that living standards all over the world are much better thant they were 55 years ago. Mostly thanks to western civilization. Especially the US and England? Doesn't that just frost you?
    WTF You are an idiot. Of course you ignore the point. The disparity of which Kennan talks about still exists today mush as it did then. Our foreign policy combined with the IMF make sure that has stayed that way. There are a few emerging countries, but much of the world remains in abject poverty; especially when compared to the living standards of the west. But as we all know there are not enough resources for everyone so someone has to be at the bottom right?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    Big Tex - keep drinking the kool aid and do you have any proof of your assertions. The war on Christmas is just the religious right keeping its followers in a state of outrage. One does not want to let that subside, they may actually see things more clearly. Good little wrong winger sheep!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall
    Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
    -- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933 by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    Soccerdad: The war on Christmas is just the religious right keeping its followers in a state of outrage. One does not want to let that subside, they may actually see things more clearly. Dadgummit! They's eveywhere! Is you an idiot? What dontchyoo git, boy? ;-) On the 12th day of Christmas my true love gave to me: 12 nuclear holocausts, 11 cans of nerve gas, 10 nuclear submarines, 9 cans of mace, 8 bayonets, 7 electric cattle prods 6 molotov cocktails, 5 sticks of dyn-a-mite, 4 tommy guns, 3 M-16's, 2 handgrendaes, and A knife with a very sharp blade

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    And to make the hypocrisy of this nonsense emenating from the usual religous leaders on the extreme right crystal clear, as has been reported in the media many large evangelical churches will actually be closed on Christmas day! The last time Christmas fell on Sunday, no one came. Note, Lutherans, methodists, Catholics etc will be open holding services.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    The WOC is about as legitimate as the WOT or the WOD. It is a manufactured controversy to promote religious extremists' POV and keep the sheeple distracted from real problems. "If saying merry Christmas is bad because it forces Christmas on people, the ill of forcing people to say happy holidays is just as great." Christ's mass is about as secular as the Pope, and I've never heard anyone force anyone to use any greeting, including 'hello.' But it is a tyranny of the majority (via religious extremists) to force others who don't share your beliefs to acknowledge your god. You can't trample the majority's rights; it is the minority that needs to be protected. And it's just plain polite to be inclusive rather than exclusive. I can understand why some people would be offended by 'merry xmas', but I can't imagine anyone being offended by 'happy holidays.'

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    The War on Christmas? Are you serious? As a Christian, perhaps I dont see things quite like others do, but I suspect that noone is actually offended by being wished a Merry Christmas. Next should we stop saying Happy New Year b/c the Chinese New Year is not on January 1st? My point is, as a Christian, if Moslems wished me a happy Ramadan, and Jewish people wished me a Happy Honukkah, etc, etc, etc, I would not be offended. The different celebrations represent the same concepts of joy and good will. It doesnt matter what you call it or how you celebrate it or even that you celebrate it at all. The point is that for about one month out of the year we're supposed to be coming together in the name of good will. I have seen people on battlefields that understand this better than some of the people on this site arguing whether its ok to say Merry Christmas or not. There are Marine Corps storis from WWII where German troups within earshot of US troups sang Christmas carols at night on Christmas eave. They had no orders to fire, but they knew each other were there and they had their own little celebrations together in the trenches putting war and all the other bs aside. What diff does the name make? It's the point of good will that makes it all relevant.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    If you see me in the street and I say Merry Christmas to you, if you're Christian, I mean Merry Christmas. If you're Jewish, I mean Happy Honukkah. If you're Moslem, I mean Happy Ramadan. If you are another religion, I mean Happy (your version of Christmas). If you have no religion at all then I mean Happy December.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    Beyond all that, I doubt that anyone is actually trying to make media stop saying Merry Christmas. Perhaps they just choose to so that they can include everyone, which I am fine with. Everyone should be able to use the seasons greetings they want.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    I follow no organized religion. When I say Merry Christmas it is very simply a heartfelt expressed wish for happiness, peace, and good days for the person I say it to, and for their loved ones. With that in mind:
    Merry Friggin' Christmas!!! to all... ;-)
    Lighten up a bit. It will make your life that much more enjoyable.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    well said edger

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    What diff does the name make? It's the point of good will that makes it all relevant. Even weller said. :-) Merry Christmas, peacrevol!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    If there is a war on christmas, christmas will win. No worries. To me, the real war on the meaning of Christmas is materialism.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    I don't qutie beleive in an all out war on Christmas but last night I watched a Honda commercial where they sang... "We wish you a Happy Holiday" I mean really? Why would they go to the trouble of removing Christmas in a song that 99% of the country knows should have Christmas not Happy Holidays. Why not use another song? They are purposely trying not to offend somebody and I don't understand why? I mean it's like singing..."I'm dreaming of a white Happy Holiday" That is the kind of thingsthat has people in an uproar. Sure it's an overeaction becaus eventually we'll come to our senses but it's undeniable that for whatever reason people are trying to be more PC when it comes to the Holidays...I mean Christmas.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    "They are purposely trying not to offend somebody and I don't understand why?" Wow, a truer statement was never made on this site;-)

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    Touchee Sailor I only mean why pick an obvious Christmas song then only to remove the Word and make it sound ridiculous. I would think more poeple would be offended by that then leaving it in. Just seems silly.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    slado, I agree, that example seems very silly. I haven't seen the commercial, but I think you bring up an example of exactly what the WOC is; it's the commercialization, not how we greet each other.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    SD writes:
    WTF You are an idiot. Of course you ignore the point.
    What your potty mouth SD or else we'll think you haven't reformed. And what link can you show us that your 57 year old quote us true today?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    Stating the obvious is not being a potty mouth. Kennan's quote is obviously still true. Our invasion of Iraq, increased deployments throughout the oil rich portions of the former USSR and continued attempts at getting rid of Chavez clearly prove the second.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    SD - You like to quote Gen. Butler. First of all, a few things have happened since that 1935 speech. 1. Civil rights. 2. Equal rights for women. 3. Affrimative action. 4. EPA 5. NAFTA 6. WWII 7. Korea, Vietnam 8. Marshall Plan 9. UN 9. The death of the USSR 10. And on and on. 11. From the Link
    He was noted for his outspoken left-wing views and his book War is a Racket, one of the first works describing the military-industrial complex. After retiring from service, Butler was a popular speaker at veterans rallies, communist, pacifist and church groups in the 1930s.
    So why don't you quit trying to act as if he popped out of John Kerry's head yesterday and represents military thinking? He didn't, doesn't and will not.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    SD, you have to be like PPJ the pure and just use the words spank and b*** so you don't fall into 'potty-mouth territory" accidentally from now on. I didn't know that JM appointed you the word monitor here on TL, aka dim, but put on your grin and apron, and we'll get a cap that says Gadara Farms so that you can set to work properly attired.....(and I'm not trying to insult farm animals here, you know what I mean)...... TTFN, Whizzy.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    Thank you edger...And Merry Christmas to you and yours

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    Oh my dense PPJ, you didn't come up with much did you.
    So why don't you quit trying to act as if he popped out of John Kerry's head yesterday and represents military thinking? He didn't, doesn't and will not
    Nice change of goal posts. I never said he represented all military thinking. His thoughts are his own but are spoken from many years in leadership positions within the the Corp. Your lists of events is completely irrelevant. I'm also amused that you list the UN given your disdain for the organization. I see you didn't refute my later examples. What is and has been true is that American corporate self interests have greatly influenced foreign policy and those interests have been protected and advanced via the military and the CIA. It has happened regardless of the party in power see the Carter Doctrine. This administration has raised corporate interests to unprecedented heights and placed their interest over those of the common person. These old quotes are even more important today since we are returning to the early 1900's wrt to 2 class society and a ruling oligarchy. The middle class is disappearing slowly at the moment, but it will acclerate unless the bleeding of good paying jobs is either stopped or replaced.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    SD - No. You are clearly using a military person to try and make a point. No problem. We have had Lefties in the military. You want to use Butler. Okay fine, but quit acting like he is typical. He wasn't, and we all know it. As for your later "points," I must say that an assertion of a position without proof is not a "point." I mean what "corporate interests?" Some links, please. And could you find some that are not 75 years old written by an Leftist?????

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    Darkly - So, just because you "think" you know something it is true? Glad to see you are off your shift and are back in town.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    Soccerdad, You're back to your old invective-ridden ways I see. War on Christmas? Besides O'Reilly, who cares? I say 'happy holidays' at work because I want to not because anyone told me I had to. If they told me I had to then perhaps I would say Merry Christmas. Yeah it is PC run amok but so what? SD, you have said in the past that you work in academia so I would guess that you are a member of TIAA-CREF which owns those stocks from the corporations that you hate so much. Unless you have divested yourself of all your retirement investments (including thier so-called socially responsible ones) I would say that you are a hypocrite in the first degree. But then again I'm sure you have some fine invective for me as well. Best to you and Merry Solstice to all.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    I just came across an excellent truism...
    "Under Republicans, man exploits man. Under democrats, it's just the opposite."
    A sharp witted commenter at this website used it as their signature. I have added it to my permanent collection.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Tampa Student, The original of that quote was:
    Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. -- John Kenneth Galbraith
    I agree - it's a great one worth remembering. Kurt Gödel had a really good one as well:
    All generalizations, with the possible exception of this one, are false. -- Kurt Gödel
    :-)

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    DA as usual PPJ's only response to an quote or argument is to denigrate the person who made the quote or argument. Anything more than that would take knowledge or at least some google skills ans well we all know about how eager he is to obtain either. Jimcee My response is as usual to one of your illogical posts - WTF

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Darkly - My apologies. I thought you liked butt spanking. Sorry. Now. Feel better? Here's some advice. Why do you get yourself in such positions?? And just think. My "meds" will be almost 100% taxpayer paid in 18 days. Thanks, Darkly. I'll send the savings to the Reoubs in your name. ;-)

    Sunday Open Thread | 42 comments (42 topical)