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R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams

Update: 12:37 am Stanley "Tookie" Williams is dead. He went to his death at 51 years of age. Rest in peace, Stanley "Tookie" Williams. A press conference will begin shortly, with reports from the warden and the media visitors. Here it is (live blogged):

Steve Lopez, LA Times: He came in without resistence, shortly after 12, he was helped onto a converted dentist's chair. He gave no resistance at any point. He lifted his head several times to look at people. He was declared dead at 12:35.

Reporter Two: There was a problem with the second IV, he grimaced at the difficulty. At 12:22, a female guard announced it would begin. So it was a 13 or 14 minute actual execution. He breathed heavily, his stomach area rose several times, then his breathing slowed, and there was no movement.

Reporter Three: Has witnessed six executions, this one was different. Williams had supporters at the back of the room. When he was still conscious, they gave black power salutes to him. On their way out, they yelled "The state of California just killed an innocent man."

Reporter Four: Supporters blew kisses to him, whispered "I love you," "God bless you." He spoke a lot but they don't know what he was saying.

Reporter Five: It seemed to take long longer than Williams thought it would.

Reporter Six: All the prison staff attending to him were touching him the whole time. One guard touched his upper arm, as if to comfort him. He lifted his head a lot. It was at least 22 minutes from when he entered the room until he was dead. He talked a lot to the guards, and seemed exasperated it was taking so long.

Questions and answer segment (from the other reporters listening to the six): There were no last words spoken, he gave his last words to the warden who will release them. He kept his glasses on the whole time. His attorneys seemed frustrated it took so long.

Another six reporters are coming in now.

Reporter 9: There was a lot of trouble getting the needle in his left arm. He could see a lot of blood on a towlette that a guard was using. 12:18: They taped his arm cocoon style to the armrest. They used the entire roll of tape.

Reporter 11: (A radio reporter and former criminal defense lawyer)Williams was very active. It was very unpleasant. He felt himself getting physically ill. He was a very big guy. The nurse was sweating and asking for help. It took much, much longer than he thought it would. He doesn't think he'll ever agree to witness another execution.

Question and answer segment: He didn't show fear or remorse. Some thought there was an air of defiance. The process was so labored.

Third set of witnesses: Nothing new.

The warden is now here. He disputes one of the reporter's perceptions that Tookie was trying to intimidate any of the witnesses. Tookie declined a last meal and took milk and water. He refused the offer to have a spiritual advisor present. [Note: Jesse Jackson had been lobbying to be the spiritual witness.] He had no last words, but the warden believes he passed a statement earlier to one of his supporters to read after his death. Barbara Bechnel will take possession of his body.

My impressions of the reporters: A few seemed shell-shocked, a few seemed like they expected more, a few seemed biased in reporting their interpretations of Tookie's facial expressions, and a few were able to convey the relevant details with some feeling behind it.

1:40 am (PT), (2:40 a.m Denver time): I'm signing off. R.I.P., Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

*******
The death penalty system in this country is broken. It lacks basic safeguards to prevent arbitrary, erroneous and discriminatory application of the death penalty. Since 1973, 122 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. It's time for a moratorium.

Perhaps the bleakest fact of all is that the death penalty is imposed not only in a freakish and discriminatory manner, but also in some cases upon defendants who are actually innocent.” - Supreme Court Justice William J. Brennan Jr., 1994

12:01 am California time. There are 2,000 people gathered at San Quentin. The execution is going on as I write this. He is hooked up to a heart monitor, with two IV lines, in case one malfunctions.

Mike Farrell, President of Death Penalty Focus:

"The governor's 96-hour wait to give an answer was a cowardly act and was tortuous," said former "M A S H" star Mike Farrell, a death penalty opponent. "I would suggest that had he the courage of his convictions he could have gone over to San Quentin and met with Stanley Williams himself and made a determination rather than letting his staff legal adviser write this garbage."

More from Farrell:

"We will not allow cowardly politicians to drag us down their path ... we know it's a prostitute's path . . . all of us are disgusted by the decision of the governor. We will not allow them to drag us down to the gutter with them. We will stand as examples of what this country should be."

Best Headline, from Australia: Schwarzenegger Terminates Stanley Tookie Williams

Joan Baez sang "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" outside the gates to the prison.

A contingent of 40 people who had walked the approximately 25 miles from San Francisco arrived earlier at the prison holding signs calling for an end to "state-sponsored murder."

Tookie spoke through Jesse Jackson:

"Those who care about my legacy and my view, avoid violence and live on and work together...I feel good. I have no fear. I've been here before."

Jesse Jackson:

Jackson, who compared Gov. Schwarzenegger to Pontius Pilate, spoke to a crowd of more than 1,000 at the east gate of San Quentin State Prison.

"Tonight, have mercy on us and the painful wickedness of our ways," said Jesse Jackson, speaking in front of a crowd estimated to exceed 1,000 at the east gate of San Quentin Prison. "How do you handle him being wrongfully convicted and murdered? Long live the legacy of Tookie as redeemer and healer."

And not about Tookie, but check out the "I Oppose the Death Penalty" Photo Project.

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    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    Thanks for the report. Having this disgusting has-been movie star as governor of the nation's biggest state doesn't seem fun or funny any longer.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    I was wondering when Jackson would show up. Now you have to ask where's the appearance money. BTW, where was Jackson, Farrell and Baez for numbers 1-1000? Not a big enough names for them? Does anyone remember the name of the last person executed without cheating?

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    I wonder if he really was innocent or guilty? Makes you wonder if O.J. would've been executed if he didn't have all that money? Don't answer that, I already know the answer to that.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#4)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    My impressions of the commenters: A few seemed shell-shocked, a few seemed like they expected more, a few seemed biased, and a few made a knee-jerk troll post about Jesse Jackson.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#5)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    I, of course, think this calls for a passage from the Gospel of Republican Jesus: "Verily, Jesus changed his mind and killed the tax collectors and prostitutes. The end."

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    Tookie was the man's middle name --a family name. It is incorrect to use quotes around it. Many of the anti death penalty advocates such as Farrell have shown up for other state sponsored death fests. I found Rita Cosby's behavior to be gross and disgusting. She was so proud to among the reporters to watch the execution.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    ps from today's Chronicle Jon Carrol The death penalty is wrong because the state (which is to say: us) should not be involved in killing people, particularly in cold blood. To kill people because they killed people -- it doesn't make any actual sense. A society should be slightly more civilized than its sociopaths. Revenge is an understandable emotion. Greed is an understandable emotion too, but stealing is still not legal. The death penalty does not deter and it does not cure.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#8)
    by learned hound on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    I am revolted and angered by this execution. I am disgusted by the disgraceful document the Governor released to "explain" the denial of clemency. May Tookie rest in peace. I'm also shocked that there have so very many nearly anonymous executions in the last six months. Take a look at this. If we're serious about ending state killing, we cannot allow the killing to proceed under the radar, out of our awareness. It really is time to abolish the death penalty.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    A very sad day it is. Too bad Tookie couldn't turn himself into a fetus at the very last moment. Then he would have had every Republican thug in the country falling all over themselves to save him.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#11)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    I don't support the death penalty but I do support the law and in this case the system worked. Tookie got 27 years to prove his innocence and he failed. If you think the death penalty is wrong then change it through the legislature. But don't blame the govenor, or the Supreme Court for doing their jobs. Tookie brutaly kille 4 people and for that under the law he paid the ultimate price. The most telling quotes came from the people that worked at San Quentin and they did not believe for a moment that Tookie was rehabilitated. They believed that this was just his last ditch attempt to avoid his fate. Maybe their biased but in legal terms there was no reason not to execute Tookie and his supposed redemption wasn't enough to counter that. May God have mercy on his soul.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#12)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    Donald Beardslee was the last California execution. IIRC

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    Jessie Jackson comparing the Governor to Pontius Pilate? Following that scene we would find that "Tookie" represents Barabbas. In that wonderful scene we find the people wanted the vile over the one who was innocent. Since we are drawing Biblical illustrations...
    "It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the innocent of justice. Prov. 18:5"
    Even Paul (and Jessie should know this) was not afraid to die if he did something deserving death.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    There is abosolutely no escaping the consequences in the natural for the actions we commit. The Gov. had to deny clemency... His [percieved] change of heart has nothing to do with what he had done. Forgivness is between him and God... but he must pay his debt to society. Thi sis why he have law. Not to be underminded by an "easing" social "values"; but by exacting the standad when needed... when you fall short of a clearly drawn line, you must be held accountable. Tookie was held righty accountable. He killed four people in cold blood. Store clerks or aborted children... makes no difference to you liberals? where is your value? where is the standard? You cannot remain hypocritical about this.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    I'm no expert on the case(s) against Mr. Williams or his claims of innocence. Regardless, innocent or not, clemency is not about "got 27 years to prove his innocence and failed." Clemency definition: Clemency is leniency or compassion shown towards convicted offenders by those empowered to administer justice. It's not about innocence, or even redemption. It's about compassion. So "don't blame the govenor" for doing his job, doesn't make sense. It is well within his job description to grant clemency, just as it is within his job description not to grant it. But trying to say he's just doing his job is a sad excuse.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#16)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    mr. williams was by no means "innocent". hopefully, he actually was guilty of the crimes he was sentenced to death for. if not, the jury, prosecutors and police have to live with that. however, mr. williams entire life was one of violence and thuggery, he should have spent the rest of it behind bars. the death penalty, like slavery, demeans all of society, doesn't bring back the victims, costs far more than life incarceration and hardly achieves "justice". retribution yes, justice no. since we're quoting the bible, try this on for size, "vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord". note that man is not involved in this procedure. that darn republican: please, spare us the false analogies between abortion and the death penalty, ain't going to fly. frankly, i've yet to meet anyone: conservative, liberal, or middle-of-the-road, who's in favor of abortion. i know i'm not. what i am in favor of is freedom of choice, that's the real issue. of course, you already knew that.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    Can't say I know too terrilby much about Tookie Williams trial and conviction, but it seems to me that those arguing for clemency should have done a bit more than say that he has reformed, gone on to be a spokesman about how kids need to stay away from gangs, and generally become a better person. Yeah he did alot of good, but was this strategy realistic. I don't think so. On the other hand I do think the case of Cory Mayes in Mississippi is something that not only left wing bloggers but bloggers in general should take up. Check out atrios or firedoglake if you want some background. Also there are quite a few big name right wing sites that have been championing this guys innocence so we on the left need to play some catch up since Cory's case is a real travesty of justice if ever I have seen one.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    Shermbuck: I do think the case of Cory Mayes in Mississippi is something that not only left wing bloggers but bloggers in general should take up. Cory Maye Waiting for Death in Mississippi

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#19)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    The govenor made it very clear why he wasn't granting clemency. Mr. Williams had not provided a case for his innoncence and since he didn't admit that he was guilty had not really redeemed himself. If he was not guilty then this execution was a travesty. I do not believe that he was innocent and if he wouldn't admit to his crimes and truely redeme himself then he didn't deserve clemency. As stated earlier his recent redemption was seen by many as a con game. What real reasons are there for the govenor to show mercy to an unrepentent convicted murderer?

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Just so I know where the confusion comes from, what part of "Clemency has nothing to do with redemption, rehabilitation, or innocence" doesn't make it through?

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Watching some the tv commentators last night and people they interviewed one thing really annoyed me. As a death penalty opponent why can't the majority of death penalty opponents simply say they are against the death penalty period; whether it be Hitler, Eichman, or Sadam. They asked sister Helen Prejan (sp?) and she kept waffling. I'm not usually a black and white person but it's wrong for the state to kill anyone. The hemming and hwaing made many of the anti-death people look like flakes. B

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    I saw Robert Martin, Tookie's prosecuting atty along w/a defense atty on Larry King last night and am listening to Martin on the radio right now. Be against the DP if you like but don't for one second believe that Tookie was innocent of these brutal, gratuitous murders.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    B, I agree completely. The death penalty needs to be abolished.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    B, I would suggest that is has to do with a desire to at least appear open-minded and capable of presenting an actual argument against the death penalty in a given case that leads people to waffle on the subject. For example, your stated position that you oppose the death penalty in all circumstances negates anything you care to say with specific regard to Williams and his case as it pertains to whether he should or should not have been executed for his crimes. You are opposed to the death penalty for all offenses, so saying you are against it for his offense, or because he redeemed himself, or whatever, is a nonstatement. In addition, your blanket opposition to the death penalty in all cases makes it an issue no one will care to discuss with you, unless they happen to also oppose the death penalty in all cases, in which case you can get together and talk about how even mass murderers and psychopathic rapist cannibals deserve a second, third, fourth, or fifth chance. Everyone else knows going in that no matter what they say, you will not be moved with regard to Williams, as you have announced yourself unmoveable, and are therefore incapable of discussing the subject intelligently. None of which takes issue with your position, or is meant to say that it is an unintelligent one; I happen to disagree with you, but I can respect your stance, assuming it's based on a moral position regarding the state having the power to kill anyone. But, as noted, above, since you have made it clear that you are not open to discussion on this issue, there is no point in talking about Williams' case with you. And I suspect that a great many of your fellow death-penalty opponents do not wish to present themselves as closed to discussion because they want to continue to beat that horse.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Justpaul, I get your point and maybe this is just a topic I should pass on. But also I think the "opposed under all circumstances" position could be articulated better. Especially when you're intereviewing some of the leading, most out spoken anti-death representatives. Finally I don't think psychopatic killers deserve a second, third, or fourth chance. They get life in prison. B

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    To those out there defending Stan Tookie Williams and saying that he's an innocent man who was murdered by the state, you are truly scary! i have not heard any compelling evidence that reveals he could even for a second be considered innocent. a lot of people make the argument that the jury was all white. Come on! such b.s. indeed, many past verdicts from other trials have been overturned because they found that the jury had in fact acted in prejudice. But, for the case of Tookie, many judges have reviewed it and found no evidence that the jury came to verdict unfairly or without reasonable doubt. i'm no expert on this case, but from what i've read he didn't have much going for him as being a poor ol' innocent man being convicted of a heinous crime. most fair and objective people familiar with the case (who have no political agenda behind it) agree that his conviction is just. Look, he brutally killed 4 people. Think about that. Imagine witnessing that! Imagine watching him place a shotgun up to the back of a man and blow a hole in his back. then imagine him laughing at the sounds of agony coming from this poor victims mouth as he gurgles on his own blood. yeah really think about that because it happened! then imagine years later listening to a bunch of fools say that he deserves to live b/c he has his name on a couple of children’s books(which he only CO-WROTE) and that he also now admits that gangs are really bad (but won't help authorities tying to stop the gangs). awwww! hey that's great he changed his life around, but big freakin deal! hey he did do some good, but now that means he should also face his punishment like a man. he should be an example of true reformation-- a man who changed his life around, and then faced his punishment with true remorse, understanding, and self-dignity. how great would it have been for him make a statement to the youth? he could have been a true man! any true person would have turned down a clemency. so, imagine what he did and what he demanded later--that his life be spared! anyone who could have seen the murders would be absolutely disgusted. people have no vision! they don't really think of the crime and how cold-hearted you have to be to do such things, and so they have compassion for the murderer. it's not a fine-line between senseless murder and everyday normal living. it's the grand canyon that separates such actions, and for the people who cross it, don't expect that a couple of children’s books are going to change the wickedness that you chose to follow.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#27)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    To all those so certain of the DP's necessity and value: How many innocent people have been let off death row in the last couple of years? How many? Do you honestly believe they are the ONLY innocent people on death row? Tookie may not have been innocent, no one will ever know. The larger point is innocent people are put to death in this nation (see Ruben Cantu), will undoubtedly continue to be so, and that in a word is wretched. How much do you pay the family of a wrongly executed man? Half a billion dollars? A billion? They'd deserve it. And these kinds of monitary judgements are made to PUNISH the guilty party (in this case the state) to such an extent that the chance of this kind of mistake happening again are lessened greatly. Mistakes will be made? Uh-huh, and I'm sure you'd say that were it your family member, husband, whomever, who is put to death by "mistake". And I've had someone in our extended family murdered, stabbed to death. I remember being so affected at his funeral, the open casket, his nineteen year-old face as still and lifeless as I'd ever seen, that I almost collapsed. And, still, the death penalty is not something I think a civilized society should consider, much less practice with as much zeal as we do. Right up there with Iran, China, North Korea, etc. How THAT'S something to be proud of.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Very well expressed, Dadler... ...

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    if people object to the DP just b/c there might be an innocent man onboard that's just lame. i'd rather hear about it being brutal than that. okay, sure there are mistakes and maybe a few innocnet people are on death row, but that doesn't mean throw out the whole system. i mean if you're wrongfully accused you're getting screwed no matter what! if you spend your life in jail and you're innocent is that much better? so should we throw away life without parole b/c there might be an innocent man convicted? no! hey i understand the arguemnt: if you kill an innocent man you also take away his chances of resolving the conviction. but realize that most death row inmates do appeal the conviction (meaning thier case is reexamined to see if there are any significant errors in it), and it's literally decades before exucution. so there is pelnty of time and opportunities for an innocent man to get off. it's not like they execute the day after the trial. your logic is basically this: just in case there's a few innocent people on death row, we should let them all serve a lesser punishment, which would include the ones that did do the crime? now a days with DNA it is less likely that people will be wrongfully convicted than in the past. Tookie even had his case reveiwed a number of times. if you're against the DP that's fine, but don't give me the case of the innocnet man who gets executed as the reason why it shouldn't be used. that's a problem of the judicial system not of the punishment.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Dadler,
    And, still, the death penalty is not something I think a civilized society should consider, much less practice with as much zeal as we do. Right up there with Iran, China, North Korea, etc. How THAT'S something to be proud of.
    You know as well as I do that China's "zeal" for the DP accounts for the vast, overwhelming majority of executions in the world. No one is in the same league as China. Compared to Iran and N. Korea on a per capita basis - which is the only intellectually honest way to compare such numbers - we are nowhere near their league either. We're far from being "right up there" with these nations. You know this stuff, why do you make the claim that you did?

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    one more point: the DP is based on the details of the murder itself. they don't just hand these things out. it has to be extemely brutal. it has to show planning and intent. very few people get DP for heat of the moment murders. DP is for special cases. people seem to forget that. we're not this evil country like Iran just exacuting people off. we have strict guidlines for the DP.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#32)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    How about this: for every person executed and later proven innocent, one death penalty supporter must die. The retribution crowd oughtta get right behind this one!

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Fine by me, if you'll agree that for every person murdered by a convicted murderer, one anti-DP activist is killed.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Why is it that Abortion is now the rule of law, and us evil republicans need to agree to leave Roe as it is. However, the DP is a completely different story. Is this more hipocrisy, or is there an actual explanation for this disparity.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#35)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    sarcastic:
    Compared to Iran and N. Korea on a per capita basis - which is the only intellectually honest way to compare such numbers - we are nowhere near their league either.
    sun78:
    we're not this evil country like Iran just exacuting people off. we have strict guidlines for the DP.
    If you're going to look at the death penalty internationally, take a look here at the list of countries where the death penalty is outlawed, and compare with the company the US keeps. "Intellectually honest", indeed.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    I believe that it is mostly because abortion is about choice. Trying to define when life begins is highly debated. Remember, just becuase one believes it to be so, doesn't make it true. Because it is much more difficult to deny the existence of life after a person has been born, the debate on capital punishment is much more certainly about murder, regardless of whether or not that person is innocent or not- the fact that it IS murder is something everyone can agree upon, unlike the abortion debate. Then it's just whether or not killing is right or wrong.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Al, Dadler's comment was very specific, as was my response to it. You bring up something else entirely. Interesting link, btw. I hadn't realized the the DP was allowed in so many nations.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    The real bottom line: Since 1973, 122 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. Think about that number. What if a serial killer had been out there for thirty years, and had 122 murders to his name? Our current system IS that serial killer, and has been proven so. I understand vengeance as well as anyone. But I also understand the need to overcome its often overwhelming grip with rationality and humanity.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    I should add, how much larger would that number of exonerated be had the resources been available, the science, the will? Sadly, I doubt we'll ever know. Much higher, obviously, is my guess.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    how much larger would that number of exonerated be had the resources been available, the science, the will?
    One of the anti-DP orgs have concluded after doing a bunch of research that there have been 23 innocents executed between 1900 and 1992. So, I guess your answer is 23 more.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Sarc, I'd assume that 23 number represents cases for which evidence still EXISTED to question. Physical evidence that could be tested. "Witnesses" who could still be interviewed. You have a link to that org? Interesting tho. Thanks.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#42)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Sarcastic, I'm sure you realize that the list of nations where the death penalty is outlawed is much longer. And if you compare the number of democracies on either side, the discrepancy is much higher still. But you knew that already.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Dalder, here: 23 innocents have been executed. Although, apparently, the research has come under enough fire such that the authors have had to restate their case to "(of the 23) there is a good chance that one or more might be innocent."

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    okay this whole numbers game on how many innocent people have been exacuted or held in death row not accurate and at times totally false. most of these people who were freed after convictons were in fact later aquited becasue of errors in the trial, such as police procedure, handling of evidnece/witmesses etc. it's mostly dealing with technicalities. it's not like the aquital is suggesting complete innocence, such that the convicted had nothing to do with the crime.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#45)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Some of the common anti-DP arguments can be used to argue against pretty much any punishment. Execution is irreversible. So is imprisonment -- you can't give back time. In that sense, the impact of even temporary imprisonment is permanent. Ditto community service. Innocent people have been sentenced to death, and (probably) even executed. Some have also spent some or all of their lives in prison. Some have been fined or done community service. Nasty countries like China and Iran practice execution. They also imprison some criminals. I suspect they also levy fines and sentence people to community service, but that sort of thing wouldn't show up on CNN. Advocating execution indicates that one doesn't value life. OK, but advocating imprisonment indicates that one doesn't value freedom. I don't mean that as a snark, but literally. Most of us don't value either life or freedom as absolute, unimpeachable trump cards over all other concerns. They may have profoundly high value, but not absolute. (Just to clarify: if you think there is any situation in which potentially deadly violence is acceptable, I claim you don't value life as an absolute) I don't represent this as the entire list of anti-DP arguments. There are others. For instance, I oppose executions because life in a secure prison is adequate to accomplish government's legitimate goals, and I don't like the government to have more power than it strictly requires.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:58 PM EST
    Sarcastic, I'm sure you realize that the list of nations where the death penalty is outlawed is much longer.
    Jeez, AL, you making me go count? OK, from your link: DP outlawed: 86 countries. Outlawed except for war crimes and such: 12 countries. Not outlawed but not practiced: 24 countries. Allowed and practiced: 76 countries. So, the DP, in fact, is lawful in more countries than it's not.
    And if you compare the number of democracies on either side, the discrepancy is much higher still.
    Well, I'll let you go do the counting to prove that one.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:59 PM EST
    Europeans Outraged at Schwarzenegger Could the widespread publicity given to this particular US execution, and the widespread condemnation of it outside the US, actually help hasten the abolition of the death penalty in the US? Or will those who support the death penalty react with the typical american isolationist responses of "mind your own business" and "we don't care what other people think about us"? And if so, would those same people still feel that it's OK for the US to intervene in Iraq and other countries?

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#48)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:59 PM EST
    Sarcastic, I'm sorry I made you go and analyze data, which was clearly harder for you to do than I expected. Outlawed: 86 countries. Outlawed except for crimes under military law and in war time (not war crimes, as you say): 11. The only one where this might be a relevant exception is Israel, I suppose, although I'm not aware of any such executions in Israel or anywhere else. De facto ban (meaning no executions have taken place in 10 years): 24 So, the death penalty is not applied in 121 countries in the list. Countries where the death penalty is permitted (including several Caribbean island "nations", and the likes of Uzbekistan: 76. The only major democracies in this group are Japan and India. 121/76 = 1.59. As for the countries that stand on either side of the death penalty issue, this world map tells the story very well. Don't play little semantic games with this issue. The US is virtually isolated among western democracies in its systematic use of the death penalty. Defend the death penalty if you will, but don't try to pretend this is not a particularly acute problem in the US.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:59 PM EST
    Yes, Cymro, the same people who are pro-Death are the ones who don't care what the rest of the world thinks -- whether it's torturing prisoners, invading countries, lying about WMD, etc. These are the same people who "value" life so much they want to monitor the movement of every conception in every woman's uterus or in her reproductive endocrinologist's lab yet, "value" life so much, they don't mind cutting funding - in the millions of dollars - from programs like Food Stamps, child care subsidies for low income families, child support enforcement. So, see, they only value the life of the pre-sentient, pre-fetus -- everyone else is on his own.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#50)
    by krazycory on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:00 PM EST
    i've been to the big house and i can honestly say that if i were on death row i wouldn't want any appeals just kill me and get it over with!! level 1 is no fun

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:00 PM EST
    Labyrinth.... Too bad Tookie couldn't turn himself into a fetus .... Then he would have had every Republican thug in the country falling all over themselves to save him. Too bad you libs can't discern the difference between an innocent fetus (that never hurt anybody) and a cold blooded killer! The REAL crime here, and the real problem with the DP is that it took 24 years to extract justice! Thanks to all the bleeding hearts in this country. I'm sure Tookie's victims would have loved to have had just 24 more hours!!!! brave... same people who are pro-Death are the ones who don't care what the rest of the world thinks -- That's right! Screw em' Do they care what we think aboout what they do in their countries? they don't mind cutting funding ... LOL on that one

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:00 PM EST
    Yeah RIP Tookie... I'm sure your victims & their families aren't!!!

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:00 PM EST
    Al, I'm not going to quibble. You said outlawed, not "not applied." In case you're not aware, there is a world of difference between those two words. Giving you the 11 "outlawed except under special circumstances" countries, the DP is outlawed in 86 + 11 = 97 countries, and allowed in 24 + 76 = 100 countries. But, hey, you may certainly choose change your statement to "in the majority of countries it's either outlawed or not applied" and if you do so, I'll agree with you. Thanks for this discussion, previous to it I was under the mistaken impression that the US was part of a very small minority of nations that allowed the DP. But, in fact, (just) over half the world's nations allow the DP, almost 40% of the nations practice it, and if you look at it by population - w/ India and China in the "DP allowed" category - it looks like the large majority of the world allows it. "Defend the death penalty if you will, but don't try to pretend this is not a particularly acute problem in the US." It's a "problem" only to those who are against it, Al. Don't try to pretend otherwise.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#54)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Oh, Al, btw, all this talk of numbers aside, I'm certainly not of the opinion that whether the US is in the majority or minority on this issue has any bearing at all on whether the US's position is right or wrong.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#55)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Sarcastic, you try to ignore in vain the question of which nations accompany the US in the barbaric practice of killing convicts. Look at that map; it's interesting that all of western Europe is on the opposite side, while you are accompanied by the likes of Uzbekistan, or Antigua & Barbados. And yes, it should matter to you what the rest of the world is doing. But I understand that you are far too arrogant to accept that.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    And on that note, Al, I think we should end our discussion.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Question to the death penalty supporters: why were black people excluded the the jury hearing the Williams case? The big problem I have with the death penalty is that you are asking people who are inherently prejudiced (as all people are to some extent) to determine who should be killed. I have been on juries and I what I saw wasn't pretty. People are prejudiced and the court accepts that. It's a fundamentally flawed system, but then again so is our society.

    Re: R.I.P. : Stanley "Tookie Williams (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Dec 23, 2005 at 12:33:53 PM EST
    people need to wake the the hell up. the man never recieved a fair trail to begin with.he had an all white jury, the prosecutor used racial slurs during the trial, there was no scientific evidence to prove he was guilty. the man pleaded he was innocent the whole way thats why he never apologized for the murders. all u have to do is a little research on his case, instead of watching the news and listening to bias people state there personal opinions about a man whom they judged from the outside. this execution is nothing more or less than an old fashion HANGING!