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Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today

By Jeralyn, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 12:05:53 AM EST
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Tennessee's new shaming law applicable to drunk drivers goes into effect today.

Starting Sunday, convicted drunken drivers are required to spend 24 hours cleaning roadsides while wearing orange vests emblazoned with the phrase "I am a Drunk Driver." You cause them to go out and pick up trash in front of their friends and neighbors, the embarrassment is going to be such that they're never going to want to go through that again," said state Rep. Charles Curtiss (D). "Hopefully you can turn them around to never become a second-time offender."

...Tennessee offenders will have to spend at least one day in jail, followed by three eight-hour cleanup shifts. The previous minimum sentence for driving under the influence was 48 hours in jail.

No, that's not how it will work. It will cause a group of people to hate authrority and be bitter over the shaming treatment which will reduce their self esteem. And, as one cop says,

"At the end of the weekend, we're going to have a person who has picked up a lot of litter but is still addicted to alcohol," he said.

Treatment, not shame, is the answer.

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    • Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today | 46 comments (46 topical)
    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 05:47:34 AM EST
    Nashville's police chief's son has been stopped on numerous DUIs that always make the front page (with photo). Chief Serpas has issued media statements that he will not put up with his son's behavior and lets him know he will be treated just like everyone else. This young man has been put in a no win situation. Now we have this brilliant shaming tactic going statewide. Way to go Tennessee! Let's humiliate people so they will get the message and never do such horrible things again. With these tactics I'll never want for clients. Their mitigation will include treatment by law enforcement. God, when will we wake up???

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#2)
    by DonS on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 06:06:05 AM EST
    OK, there is a continuum of substance abuse from misuse to physical addiciton. But we know that shame is a core condition for a lot of folks who get in trouble because of substances. I have found, working with addicts who are connected to the legal system, that there is a pathetic lack of understanding of addiciton by most in the legal professions; judges, lawyers, prosecutors, the lot. That's not unexpected. But an awful lot of them feel competent to diagnose and meet out "treatment" (read punishment) rather than call in treatment professionals at an appropriate stage. This shaming gambit seems unlikely to do more than reinforce existing shame and harden attitudes for most offenders.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 08:09:46 AM EST
    The problem with treatment is that only the addict can make the decision to quit. Perhaps this will be the straw that will push them into AA.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 08:25:07 AM EST
    I have 9 years clean and sober. I gotta tell you that I have no problem with this in the least. As long as people think they are able to hide their addiction, they are likely to continue. This eliminates that self-deception. Good for you, Tennessee. Quit being so namby pamby people. This sort of stuff is exactly why liberals get made fun of in the first place. If we ever want to regain some of the middle ground from the right, we've got to show backbone somewhere.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:13:12 AM EST
    Hmm. Back when our daughter was younger, we told her that bad behavior would result in leaving a place she wanted to be (friends, DisneyWorld, whatever), and that it would be explained to the people we were with why we had to leave. Oddly enough, she doesn't hate authority, and she's now a very polite, well mannered pre-teen. Shame works. Especially with those who have something to be ashamed about. Or, perhaps you would just prefer longer jail sentences?

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:27:00 AM EST
    I would think this kind of public shame will simply not work. Those susceptable to shame would have already changed because of their shame in getting arrested in the first place. The more serious repeat offenders will not be affected since shame has never been shown to cure alcoholism. Now JR sets up the usual artifical alternative, more jail time. But since the right can only think in terms of punishment the idea that treatment for the underlying alcoholism might be helpful never enters their mind.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#7)
    by BigTex on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:31:10 AM EST
    Both sides seem to be falling into group think here. I do not drink, so have been the automatic designated driver for the past decade now. As such I've seen plenty of my friends get legally intoxicated. Most of the time though, alcholism isn't the problem. The drinking is a symptom of another issue. Maybe it is being a stupid college student and drinking to fit in. Maybe it is simply not realising they have had too much to drink. Maybe it is underlying depression. Maybe it is a female who some guy was trying to intice to go home with him for the night. Maybe it is someone who is in full control, but has a BAC of 0.08. For those who need treatment, then Poker is right, they have to make the decision. Forcing them to go to AA or another treatment propgram not only will not help the individual, but also harms the treatment program because resources are being spent on a person who does not want to change. For those who do not need treatment, then this is a sentencing option that allows them to continue to be a productive member of society. They only spend 1 day in jail, and then three 8 hour shifts on cleanup duty. This means they can continue to provide for their families. Contine to go to work. Continue to contribute to society. Will some be lost in the system? Sure. But a heck of a lot fewer are lost in the system this way. The law is not perfect, but helps to mitigate the damage done, overall, to the non-alcholic driver who was at 0.081 because they had a six pack over four hours. They have to spend a night in jail, and have some embarassment. But that is a lesser punishment than months in lock up, losing their job, and having a conviction on their record hampering their ability to find a new job, all because their BAC level was technically too high, despite them being in full control of their abilities. BAC level to reach intoxication is the real culprit here. At least with the new law, the offender has a chance to avoid the harshest collateral aspects of punishment.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#8)
    by Johnny on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:38:40 AM EST
    Huh.... Perhaps if someone, somewhere, could provide more than anecdotal evidence (thanks for trying JR lol)that publically shaming people results in anything more than a human being with reduced social skills, I would go for this. As it stands, I believe this should be illegal under the 8th.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#9)
    by Johnny on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:40:45 AM EST
    Also, any and all business owners that are found to be harboring illegals need to be paraded around with a sign that says "I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR THE IMMIGRATION PROBLEM. I HATE AMERICAN WORKERS, BUT I HAVE TWISTED THE SYSTEM TO MAKE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN WORKER HATE THE BROWN PERSON, NOT ME"

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#10)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:44:10 AM EST
    Tex makes the excellent point of the need to understand the underlying cause of which there may be many. Do they address these issues for first time offenders or do they automatically do the shame patrol? If the latter than I'm against it. It may be too simplistic to say that offenders need to want to change. Although I believe this is basically true do all who dont want to go to treatment feel this way because of not wanting to change or being affraid of the unknown treatment? In the latter cases sending them once might work out. Anybody know a study?

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#11)
    by Lora on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 10:41:20 AM EST
    I think the day in jail and roadside clean-up shifts are appropriate. I'd even go with wearing the orange overalls. That draws enough attention. I would draw the line at putting "drunk driver" on the overalls though. I'd think resentment and revenge might come to mind, not "I'm sorry and I will never do it again." It might work for some, but I think it could end up causing more harm than good overall.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#12)
    by Dadler on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 10:53:25 AM EST
    Ah, the ol' Scarlet Letter. While I have as much instinct as anyone to humiliate those I think deserve it, I also realize, as an adult, that vindictiveness doesn't change anyone. Buddhist compassion and insight would do far more, as my mother would say.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 11:08:39 AM EST
    Soccerdad: Tex makes the excellent point of the need to understand the underlying cause of which there may be many... Anybody know a study? I think there are many complexities to this idea of shaming, whether or not it works, produces resentment, and what the longer term psycholgical and social effects are. For myself I admit to a bias towards accentuating positives as being stronger motivators to acceptable behavior than to accentuating negatives like shaming. But I've also long thought that Judeo-Christian and Catholic efforts to control with guilt are in some respects forms of "psychological terrorism". Here is one view:
    Shame sanctions should be seen as a form of officially-sponsored lynch justice; and the evil in shame sanctions should be understood as an evil growing ultimately out of the relationship those sanctions establish between the state and the crowd it stirs up. This does not mean that shame sanctions do not arguably do harm to the offender's dignity: they threaten harm to what the paper calls the offender's "transactional dignity." But the evil in shame sanctions goes beyond any harm to the offender. For such sanctions lend themselves, even if only potentially, to a style of demagogic politics, and encourage an ugly species of mob psychology--especially when those sanctions are imposed on sex offenders and commercial offenders. The evil in American shame sanctions is, in fact, akin to the evil that we sense is present in the shame sanctions of Maoist China: They belong to an ordering based on governance by mob. --James Q. Whitman, Yale Law School
    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 11:18:47 AM EST
    Edger, I agree with you. I don't think I made my points clear.
    Tex makes the excellent point of the need to understand the underlying cause of which there may be many...
    The point I wanted to make is that do they address these or do they go straight to the shame. I feel they should address underlying causes. WRT to the study here's what I want to know. PPJ made the point that addicts need to want to change. But that's not the same as sending people to treatment against their will. Some people may fear treatment rather than not want to change. Treatment, physcological treatment still has a stigma for many people. So what I would like to see is if you do send people to treatment who say they don't want to go, how many change their mind once there and how many don't participate in treatment?

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 11:32:41 AM EST
    Soc: PPJ made the point that addicts need to want to change. But that's not the same as sending people to treatment against their will. So what I would like to see is if you do send people to treatment who say they don't want to go, how many change their mind once there and how many don't participate in treatment? I can only speak for myself Soccerdad, and for what I've seen in my life. I think people do need to want to change, before they can make a change in themselves. I think that is self-evident. I have had the fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on whether you think you can gain useful self-knowledge from such things - I think we learn more from pain than from pleasure) experience of spending 5 years working my way out of a pit of addiction. It was not fun or easy by any means. Probably one of the hardest things I've ever done. I did it without any treatment or programs like the 12 step ones. I just had very strong desire. I've also seen many people forced by courts into treatment programs, or shamed into them by family and friends, and seen it to be in most cases useless. because it was forced upon them and not something they chose out a desire to change, the lying to themselves and others continued.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 11:41:35 AM EST
    I think people do need to want to change, before they can make a change in themselves.
    Absolutely true, but not the same as fearing treatment. Forcing treatment would only be worthwhile if some percentage changed their mind and accepted treatment once there. Thats my only point. The fact that some won't doesn't by itself negate the idea of forcing people to treatment.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 11:46:06 AM EST
    The fact that some won't doesn't by itself negate the idea of forcing people to treatment.
    I agree completely with you in that too. Being forced or shamed into treatment can, in some cases, enough of a "wake up" call to stimulate real desire to change. That's the nut of the issue, I guess, and I assume it's the reason you asked if anyone knew of a study on this. Be interesting to see some real stats.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#18)
    by cpinva on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 11:52:00 AM EST
    JR and mrpeebles, neither of you has the slightest clue, judging from your equally clueless posts. JR, did you put a sign on your daughter's back, and parade her around in public? didn't think so. mrpeebles, hiding an addiction denotes a sense of self awareness that most hard core addicts lack. if they had it, they would already have done something about the underlying cause. shaming them in public will have no effect on their addiction at all. what this will do, as noted by the cop, is produce really ticked off people. really ticked off people are a danger to society, because they tend to commit violent acts. another brilliant, short-sighted bit of transparent political grandstanding, with nothing of actual value gained.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 11:56:51 AM EST
    I personally could give a fig about the effect of shaming these people on their self esteem. They chose to drink or use drugs, it was not forced upon them, and neither was it a necessity in order to live. I am saving my sympathy for their victims: their families who suffer emotionally and/or economically because of their weak character and their innocent victims on our highways. Perhaps the Tennessee program will so shame these people that they will stay home and indulge themselves as much they want and where they won’t be out on the roads killing innocent people. Yes, I am indeed a member of MAD.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 12:01:02 PM EST
    I personally could give a fig
    But of course any excuse to exclude people from consideration. Addicition does have biological underpinnings, so its not completely choice especially if they slowly drift into the full addiction.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 12:04:33 PM EST
    SOmething to think about from a California program called "Rational Recovery". I don't know how they collect their statistics, but their comments may be useful here:
    AA is not about addiction recovery; AA is about AA and nothing else. The steps have no suggestion on how to quit drinking/using, and AA members are forbidden to quit their addictions once and for all. Abstinence is always an indirect spin-off of working the 12-step program, one-day-at-a-time, for the rest of your life. Addiction treatment doesn't work. The abstinent outcome of addiction treatment is so low, approaching zero, that abstinence outcome statistics aren't even collected. All that is measured is program compliance and indirect outcomes like feeling better or keeping out of trouble. There is no treatment for addiction because addiction is not a disease. But you probably already suspect this is so. Addiction treatment benefits those giving the treatment far more than those receiving it. Forced AA participation can be very harmful to you. You are taught that your original family values and your own beliefs about life are unworthy, and must be replaced with the religious 12 steps. You are required to surrender your life, your independence, your judgment, your time, your critical judgment, and your autonomy to the group. In other words, you are prohibited from thinking for yourself, exactly as in any cult. For most people, addiction appears more attractive than AA's design for living. Anyone can quit an addiction. It's not hard, if you know what you are doing. Of all who actually get better, 80% do it on their own, without groups, counseling, or treatment. LINK


    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 12:45:08 PM EST
    Clincally, the nature of "shame" is a response of indignation, anger and rebellion. Where's the "rehabilitative" value here? Aren't treatment or a simple court sentence sufficient? Probably not, considering we've got an administration whose morality has been to offend so many so deeply on so many levels.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#23)
    by DonS on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 01:19:59 PM EST
    Intentionally shaming people because of a behavior is a moral judgement based on status and behavior, as opposed to punishing the behavior based on legal violation. What, besides puritan principles makes us identify alcoholism, which some believe to be a disease, with moral failure suffcient to publically shame the individual. If it is a "disease", moral judgement is as inappropriate as shaming someone for heart disease or diabetes. Only the truly ignorant would characterize all alcoholism and addicition as a completely volitional behavior. If its a legal violation, impose the penalty of the law. Leave the moral dimension, to the extent that such judgement is even appropriate, to the institutions of morality. However, I have little doubt that supporters of shaming would extend the principle, say, to alarm systems on convicted shoplifters when they enter a store, or maybe requiring sex offenders to be prominently tatooed. Why not publically shame all convicted criminals anytime there is the remotest chance that the behavior could cause physical harm to others. Slippery , slippery slope when the legal system turns moral police as well. Oh, and by the way, what accommodation should we make for those DUI offenders who are wealthy enough to buy off the legal system as occurs routinely?

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 02:28:11 PM EST
    I don't have a problem with drunk drivers helping keep our roads clean, or better yet, getting them some help with their addiction. But trying to shame them will end up counterproductive. Invariably, someone will take exception to that, and in their anger they will do something far worse than driving drunk. I understand where James Robertson is coming from on his point. That's just good old fashioned discipline, something every parent should do and absolutely not out of the ordinary. But let's be realistic--if someone shames me in public, I'm going to be looking for an opportunity to get even. It may not be in public, but I will have the final word.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    Isn't it possible that a parent's way of dealing with their own kid, with whom they have a relationship, would be quite different from a government agency's tapping the shoulder of someone who has no emotional or historical relationship with them? This is asked poorly, but you get what I'm asking?

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 06:57:43 PM EST
    cpinva: I would ask that you kindly refrain from such razors-edge ad hominem attacks. They only serve to hurt feelings. They aren't particularly effective at bolstering arguments. In fact they force the person on the recieving end to waste energy deflecting the personal attack, rather than answering the question at hand. I guess I will have to do that. I consider myself something of an unfortunate expert in addiction, as I am an addict. Thankfully I am in recovery, and, as I mentioned, have 9 years without a drug or a drink. I was a hard-core addict, too. Crack was my drug of choice, along with alcohol. I spent many a night on the forty deuce in NYC or in the projects on the Lower East Side smoking rocks 'til my eyes damn near popped out of my head. I had my share of waking up in strange places drenched in piss. It wasn't fun. I will tell you also that I thought that I was fooling people. And, for the most part I was. And the ones I wasn't were afraid to call me on it. I wish they had, in retrospect. As such an expert, as non-academic as my resume may be, I can tell you that one of the major underpinnings to addiction is self-deception. As long as one believes he is not an addict, and this includes what one believes others percieve of him, one is likely to be able to avoid having to face the actuality of his addiction. So, I see this as a way to smack a little reality into drunk drivers. I have a great deal of sympathy for addicts. And alcoholics. But the minute they step into a car and jeopardize someone else's life I lose all sympathy. I am a Jeffersonian liberal. Do what you wish as long as it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket. As for alcoholics taking revenge, I will say that most addicts take out their anger on themselves. That's why they are alcoholics. As far as a biological underpinning for addiction, well, duh. That doesn't mean, however, that social castigation won't make a difference. Quite the opposite. Reason shame is effective is precisely because it has a powerful effect on the limbic system which is intimately tied to the entorhinal/hippocampal complex in the temporal lobes that governs memory, as well as the prefrontal cortex, which governs executive decision-making. If something feels bad, we tend not to do it again. Shame feels bad. Addicts respond to this. Please don't be so touchy-feely. It doesn't help anyone, except you, since it makes you feel good being "understanding and open-minded." Addicts love touchy-feely people. We call them suckers and enablers, though.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 07:10:46 PM EST
    mr.p:
    as non-academic as my resume may be, I can tell you that one of the major underpinnings to addiction is self-deception.
    sweet irony.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 07:29:46 PM EST
    Jeepers, "punisher," thanks for adding something substantive.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 08:20:29 PM EST
    Peebles, I wouldn't want to distract from your brilliant lectures on the treatment of addiction.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 08:45:54 PM EST
    Au contraire, mon frere! I am most interested in the punisher's *guffaw* opinion. Have you nothing but one-liners up your sleeve? Enquiring minds and all that...

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#31)
    by Aaron on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 08:56:19 PM EST
    As far as I'm concerned, people who drink and drive should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail. And if you kill someone behind the wheel, you should have their hands cut off to prevent you from ever driving a car again. I come to this hard-line the hard way. In the late 80s I lost my first girlfriend to a drunk driver. Lisa Marie West and her cousin Lisa Ann were riding in their truck two blocks from my house when they pulled out on to US1 and were hit from behind by a car traveling at an estimated 80 mph. My friend's cousin was decapitated and died instantly, and my girlfriend was horribly mangled, only living for about eight hours before dying in the hospital. The driver was a foreign national who fled the country after the Broward sheriff's office allowed him to be released on bail within hours of the accident. I still have a picture of this individual that I acquired from BSO. Should I ever run across this person anywhere in the world I won't hesitate to exact my personal version of justice upon him, and I won't be merciful. A few years prior to this, another girlfriend of mine was walking across US1 after leaving a nightclub and was struck by a car traveling at a high rate of speed. She later died in the hospital. This hit-and-run went unsolved for more than three years until the woman driving the car was later apprehended after fleeing the scene of another hit-and-run, with a blood alcohol level of .29. She was eventually tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident with injuries to which she received probation. Not exactly what I'd call justice. In the late 90s a local FBI agent left a local sports bar after drinking a large amount of beer. He wound up getting on interstate I-95 going in the wrong direction and had a head-on collision with two young men killing them both. He survived with broken wrists and proceeded to convince the Florida state troopers that the other car was traveling in the wrong direction, after a lengthy investigation and protracted trial he received 90 days in jail. Disgusting! David Farrall vs. State of Florida Ferrell gets 90 days in wrong-way case In Florida we have the 10-20-life law for people who commit crimes with firearms. I'd like to see something similar enacted for drunk drivers, because it seems that the only way these people will ever receive justice is if we have some kind of mandatory minimums.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 09:18:45 PM EST
    nice post. thanks.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#33)
    by cpinva on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 12:36:01 AM EST
    brendabee, i have little, if any, use for MADD, an organization with far more influence than their "work" warrants. their "work" being mostly to scare the daylights out of everyone, while offering nothing much of constructive use in return. as far as i'm concernced, their 501(c)(3) status should be revoked, as they are a political organization, not an educational one. your MADD talking points show just how little they, and you, know about addictive personalities and disease. do some real research, before exhibiting your ignorance for all to see. mr.peebles, i'm happy for you that you're clean and sober, however, you're still clueless. the issue is not addiction per se, but the "punishment" imposed by the TN courts, for the DUI infraction. Hell, why stop with a sign on their back? put them in stocks in the public square too, and let passersby throw rotten veggies at them. that'll teach 'em! except, well.........it won't. ultimately, it won't change their personality, except to make it uglier, it would mine. i can assure you, i would get revenge on any judge stupid enough to sentence me to it, were i an addict of any sort. bear in mind, there are a lot more offenders, many of whom are nasty drunks, than both judges and police. is this really what you want for our society, a vendetta mentality? aron, if you kill someone as the result of DUI, you should be charged with negligent homocide, period. it has happened here in va, finally, after years of liquor industry lobbyists fighting it tooth and nail. i am at a loss as to how cutting their hands off is going to solve anything. geez, they can get prosthetic ones, and be out driving, drunk again, in a year. people, don't let your emotions blind you to the overt stupidity of laws like this; they "feel good" but accomplish nothing of substance.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#34)
    by BigTex on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 06:08:29 AM EST
    CP - what about those arrested who are not addicts? While I would agree an addict that voluntarilly, and in good faith, enters into an addiction program should get a pass if they are also placed on the drug that causes violent illness in response to alchol (better safe than sorry here.) However, for those who are not addicts, then this punishment has a greater deterrent effect, while still allowing them to continue on with life relativly unharmed. Take the college student... if imprisoned for 30 or 90 days that is the end of their semester. However, three 8 hour shifts of cleanup detail won't end their semester. Or the father who can keep his job with the 3 shifts of clean up, but not if he is sitting in prison. This law isn't perfect, but it is a distinct step in the "better" direction. Soccer has an excellent point in needing to determine the root cause of the incident, but even failure to do that, this is a better solution than a mandatory 180 day revocation of drivers liscence and some prison term.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 11:22:52 AM EST
    Charlie: I posted Rational Recovery's stuff only because it was one view of addiction treatment/help. I've never had any troubles with alcohol so I don't know whether what they say makes sense or not. It was their contention that anyone can quit an addiction, that it's not hard, etc. I know from my own experience that it is hard, and from seeing other peoples experiences that not anyone can quit without help or at least a great deal of support.
    it's easy to quit smoking, I've done it thousands of times.
    Me too! So many times I know how by now, so I don't have to bother anymore (/sarcasm). I'm 53, been smoking since I was 12... this month I'm having all my top teeth (what's left of them) pulled and a full upper plate installed. But I still smoke.... pretty "fookin'" stupid I know, but It's a tougher addiction than almost any other I think. I figure that the best way to get past any addiction, alcohol, drugs, or tobacco, sex, gambling, power... whatever... is just to use whatever works for each individual. I don't think there are any "one size fit's all" cures. I do think though that nobody will make a painful change unless they first want to. So I'm not big on forced treatments or shaming. With the caveat that sometimes I suppose they can be enough of a "wake up" call to be the seed of a real desire in a person to want to make a change, even a painful and hard one. I agree with you, in short...

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 11:37:01 AM EST
    Just to add one more thought to what I said above, I also think (at least it's a big factor in my own experiences) that one thing that is prbably necessary for getting over an addiction is that people need to have something they really want more than what they are addicted to, as well as having some hope that they can get it. I think that a desire for a minimum level of self respect is that thing. It was, for me.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 12:45:07 PM EST
    When I did a search in the medical literature database called PubMed, for studies on addiction treatment protocols that utilize shame therapeutically, I expected not to find any. My expectations were fulfilled. Shame and guilt are examined from time to time in addicted populations, usually being found to be even more maladaptive and problematic for those populations then for compared norms. Here's one example: J Psychoactive Drugs. 1996 Apr-Jun;28(2):125-34. Guilt, shame, and depression in clients in recovery from addiction.
    Men and women in recovery from addiction were compared on levels of depression, guilt, and shame... The recovering subjects were compared to nonaddicted subjects and established norms, and it was found that the recovering people were higher on depression, shame, and the subscales of maladaptive guilt. Both men and women in recovery were significantly lower than norms in adaptive guilt.
    In other words, this study found that the recovering addicts in their sample already had more shame then norms. Also more maladaptive guilt and less adaptive guilt.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:04:17 PM EST
    The butts and the sauce killed my old man. The butts mostly. He still couldn't kick the things. It's an evil one for sure. My grandfather (fathers side) kept telling me to quit. He couldn't. One day in the nursing home he was smoking a cigarette and telling me: "quit!" "these things will kill you..." "look what they're doing to me! He died that day. He was 99 years old... ;-) (true story) I'm afraid I might be lucky (or cursed) the same way :( There is no history of cancer in my family on either side. What luck... I wonder how many times I'll have to get new teeth in the next forty years? That should demonstrate that when it comes to addiction, mere intelligence alone is insufficient in conquering the disease. I really don't think intelligence has much to do with kicking addiction. It's kind of like getting wealthy, I suspect. there are a hell of a lot of dummies that make a lot of money. The things that separate them for the ones who don't is just desire and persistence. Yes? No? :-)

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:10:29 PM EST
    Punisher: In other words, this study found that the recovering addicts in their sample already had more shame then norms. Interesting. Maybe that has something to do with why they seem to kick and fight if people try to pile on any more shame or guilt.... hmmm.... it would be pretty counterproductive wouldn't it?

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:10:31 PM EST
    Edger and Charlie, interesting discussion. It also reminds me a nobel prize winning novelist whose doctor told him to cut salt from his diet, because his high blood pressure was a problem. The novelist refused. "Salt is life," was his answer.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:12:08 PM EST
    Edger: ...it would be pretty counterproductive wouldn't it? Yes.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#42)
    by DonS on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:13:47 PM EST
    Re: the butts. I've been working with addicts almost 25 years. I would confidently estimate 95% of the folks I've worked with smoke cigarettes, or chew, or both. Draw your own conclusions.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:17:14 PM EST
    DonS: Draw your own conclusions. For me anyway, I think it's just a deep psychologically as physically. It becomes part of your personality and self image, you know?

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#44)
    by DonS on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:20:35 PM EST
    . . . and the physical side of the addiciton is about as tough as any drug out there for a lot of people.

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:22:30 PM EST
    It's good for you. Puts hair on your lungs! ;-(

    Re: Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 06, 2006 at 03:15:50 AM EST
    hydrocodone addiction

    Tennessee to Shame Drunk Drivers Today | 46 comments (46 topical)