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UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 01:12:30 PM EST
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A new law went into effect in Great Britain today, allowing police to arrest for every offense, no matter how trivial:

Police are to be given sweeping powers to arrest people for every offence, including dropping litter, failure to wear a seat belt and other minor misdemeanours.

The measures, which come into force on Jan 1, are the biggest expansion in decades of police powers to deprive people of their liberty. At present, officers can generally arrest people if they suspect them of committing an offence which carries at least five years in prison. They will now have the discretion to detain someone if they suspect any offence and think that an arrest is "necessary".

This reminds me of Rudy Giuiliani's program to clean up Times Square and other areas by arresting the squeegee men that wanted to clean your car windows. It's taking the broken windows theory of policing to new and dangerous heights.

As Republican pollster and supporter Frank Luntz once told the Washington Post, in an attempt to praise Giuliani:

He beat crime, he beat drugs, he beat unemployment, he beat welfare, he beat trash in the streets, he beat the squeegee guy.

Sure he did, he put everyone in jail. Civil liberties disappeared and police brutality and the "blue wall of silence" ran rampant under his watch.

Great Britain is going down the same road. Check out the camera powers given to police in the article. Why should we care? Because it could spread here. Particularly with a President who thinks the Constitution doesn't apply to him.

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    UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense | 29 comments (29 topical)
    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 03:33:16 PM EST
    IS the power being abused? Well, I'm sure many on the far Left believe that the existence of police itself is an abuse of power
    Nonsense as usual.
    We are facing a terrorist threat of unprecendented proportions throughout the West.
    The usual gross overstatement meant to rally everyone around the fear factor. How many people have been klled in the West by terrorist and how does this compare to cars or regular crime? Lets see how many more innocent foreigners the British police can gun down. The other point is that the promise of some of these techniques actually working seems rather small. The bottom line of this is the usual fascist approach. You should be scared to death give us all the power and surrender your liberty. At least the trains ran on time in Italy.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#3)
    by Sailor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 03:51:04 PM EST
    Yo troll, at least have enough courtesy to follow the TL guidelines and learn how to form a link.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 03:57:09 PM EST
    OK Soccerdad, I get your viewpoint; the Blair government and the Bush administration are fascist regimes. 9-11, the Spain subway, The British subway, the bus bombings, Theo Van Gogh, the French rioting, the raping of non-muslim European women, the rocket attacks against Israel, the Indonesian club bombings...this is all false hysteria whipped up by the American fascists, after all, look how many people die in car accidents. Okey Dokey. Yeeeeow! Zing! Woob woob woob woob woob! Moe, Larry! Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 04:02:37 PM EST
    Why should we care? Because it could spread here. And it can go both ways, apparently. :-)
    St. Louis police officers often say they feel as if people are looking over their shoulders. ... The local chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, a frequent critic of the city police, says it plans to arm residents of the city's north side with video cameras to record officers' dealings with the public. The activist group says the department often mistreats and unfairly targets blacks and said it hopes the presence of cameras will act as a deterrent to police abuse and result in smoother dealings between residents and police. ... But Brenda Jones, the ACLU chapter's executive director, said some criticism of police is warranted. "People are being stopped by the police for no particular reason," she said. "A number who have run-ins have attempted to file complaints but haven't been able to get to internal affairs." ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH 12/31/2005


    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 04:05:28 PM EST
    Yeeeeow! Zing! Woob woob woob woob woob! Moe, Larry! Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
    Pretty good, rk... yep... very...impressive. I'm sold. Where do I sign up to be a certified wack?

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 04:10:30 PM EST
    RK:
    9-11, the Spain subway, The British subway, the bus bombings, Theo Van Gogh, the French rioting, the raping of non-muslim European women, the rocket attacks against Israel, the Indonesian club bombings...this is all false hysteria whipped up by the American fascists... Okey Dokey. Yeeeeow! Zing! Woob woob woob woob woob! Moe, Larry! Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
    I don't know who whipped it up, but you gotta admit, RK, you are sounding a little hysterical.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 04:55:25 PM EST
    OK folks, the above commentary was in response to Soccerdad. Concerning the terror threat he said: The usual gross overstatement meant to rally everyone around the fear factor. How many people have been klled in the West by terrorist and how does this compare to cars or regular crime? If you read the thread before posting it makes sense. I was using a little sarcasm.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 05:04:37 PM EST
    rk: If you read the thread before posting it makes sense. Woob woob woob woob woob! Zing!

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 05:35:37 PM EST
    RK said: We are facing a terrorist threat of unprecendented proportions throughout the West. SD said: The usual gross overstatement... RK said: 9-11, the Spain subway, The British subway, the bus bombings, Theo Van Gogh, the French rioting, the raping of non-muslim European women, the rocket attacks against Israel, the Indonesian club bombings...this is all false hysteria whipped up by the American fascists... Okey Dokey. Yeeeeow! Zing! Woob woob woob woob woob! Moe, Larry! Nyuk nyuk nyuk. I said RK is sounding hysterical. RK said: read the thread before posting... I was using a little sarcasm. Well I read the thread. RK could have responded directly to SD's suggestion that terrorism is not an existential threat to the West, but he chose not to. He instead chose to answer with the hysterial rant that he would rather describe as sarcasm. He can call it what he wants. If he wants to be engaged in constructive debate then he won't fly off the handle next time.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 05:36:08 PM EST
    I'm not quite sure how this is taking "the broken windows theory of policing to new and dangerous heights". Is the fear that the powers could be abused? Fair enough. I agree that we should always be on guard for the police abusing their powers. IS the power being abused? Well, I'm sure many on the far Left believe that the existence of police itself is an abuse of power, but most posters on THIS site seem far more rational than that. The context of this police power issue cannot be ignored. We are facing a terrorist threat of unprecendented proportions throughout the West. The fact is that Giuliani's theories were correct in that the people committing the small crimes were frequntly people who were also committing the large crimes. After the subway bombings in Spain, efforts were discussed to increase security in American subways, but civil libertarians began to protest the idea of searching people at random. Why? On principle? How are the police supposed to do their job if their not allowed to use their instincts and years of experience? Are we concerned about our right to carry an illegal gun or bag of weed? Fair enough; controls can be designed. But as one New York City policeman put it: "If we know that Russian gangs are preying on Jewish diamond merchants down in the diamond district, and we spot a Mercedes with 4 Russian gagsters watching a particular store from across the street, we aren't allowed to go and ask them for I.D.'s?" The civil libertarians seem to be far more concerned with the generalities of personal freedom than the specifics of the freedom to get on a subway without being blown up.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 05:45:34 PM EST
    Punisher: If he wants to be engaged in constructive debate then he won't fly off the handle next time. That's the nut of it, isn't it? But it appears that he is not here for constructive debate at all. Rather, it appears that he is here only to recite talking points, be an apologist for the BushCo, the WOT, the dismembering of rights, freedoms, and the constitution, and to troll and to promote his blog. Which is why I never engage him in conversation, which I would if I thought he ever said anything worth conversing with him about.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimcee on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 05:59:11 PM EST
    It would seem to me that Britain is effectively joining the EU with this shift in law. In France and Germany you can be 'retained' as long as the authorities see fit, without arraignment. An abridgement of civil liberties? Sure but none of these countries has had much regard for them in the past regardless of the unquestioning American Left's adoration of European liberlism. As far a comparison to the Guiliani administration's use of the 'broken window theory' there is one. A crime has to be committed in order for any action by the police to be taken. You jump a turnstile, you have broken the law and thus you can be searched, often with added charges, such as concealed weapons, drugs etc. Having lived there during the Koch, Dinkins and Guiliani adminstrations I would have to say that Guiliani was right. NYC was a violent place, especially under Dinkins and he didn't help when he declared that NYC was 'ungovernable' and allowed a virtual pogrom to happen in Crown Heights. This is just more exaggerated anxiety trying being ginned up by so-called civil-libretarians in the name of....well I'm not sure what. JK, don't waste your time with Soccerdad, trust me on this.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 06:22:19 PM EST
    So when faced with the fact that he cant respond to the arguments and having it pointed out that waht he said was gross over exaggeration he no claims he was being sarcastic. Sorry Ace if you reread your post with the idea of sarcasm in mind it no longer makes sense. Gee and I thought you were going to be a challange.
    JK, don't waste your time with Soccerdad, trust me on this.
    Why's that? Is it because you get your butt kicked everytime you post your nonsense (btw not all your posts are nonsense). BTW JK you made a claim earlier I asked for the statute. I'm still waiting. Or are details like logic and facts beneath you.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 06:33:37 PM EST
    TL:
    Particularly with a President who thinks the Constitution doesn't apply to him.
    jimcee:
    more exaggerated anxiety trying being ginned up by so-called civil-libretarians in the name of....well I'm not sure what.
    I think the name jimcee is trying to think of is "the Constitution."

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 01, 2006 at 08:24:01 PM EST
    I don't know why we're outraged by this. In most states (including Missouri, where I live) police have the power to arrest for any offense under the sun, no matter how minor. And the Fourth Amendment does not limit states' power to allow this (see Atwater v. City of Lago Vista) The Missouri Supreme Court recently refused to examine the issue under the state constitution (I know--I filed the application ...)

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 07:45:25 AM EST
    Morning sunshine. Hodo writes:
    I did. It doesn't. Nice try, shmendrik. Sarcasm is about 9 or 10 levels beyond you, sport. You couldn't reach it with a hook and ladder. You're wrong on the facts, you're utterly clueless and you couldn't pull off sarcasm if your fookin' life depended on it, putz. It does. You didn't. Better luck in the next life, sport. Dismissed.
    Little out of control this morning, eh Hodo? Now, leaving aside his final sentence, and going back to his original comment, to which SD replied, and Kessler was using sarcasm on: Can you prove he is wrong? I mean using something besides your unsupported accusations and insults? All Rudy's police force did was return control of the streets and neighborhoods to the citizens. No one has the right to run out and mess with your windshield and demand a "tip." No one. No one has the right to break windows. No one has the right to own porn houses in the middle of what once was, and is now again, a historic site. No one has the right to "jump" and avoid paying the fees for public transportation. Note that none of these involve actions done in private. All are in public and cause problems for the public. Ignoring them cause the public to leave the scene, turning the streets and neighborhoods over to the vandals. And if you tolerate that, why not hugger-mugging? A little extortion of the local merchants? Where does it end? Doesn’t the right of the public to be secure in their person and property exist in your world? Robert Kessler - Now you know not to use sarcasm. The usual suspects will immediately become obtuse and act like they haven't the least idea of what you have done....as they have now done.... again and again... as they ignore the main point.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 08:19:37 AM EST
    The basic problem with the "broken windows" theory (that you come down hard on the most minor crimes as a way of documenting a "tough" law and order regime and because many petty criminals are also doing bigger crimes) is that it sounds plausible, but doesn't work. Proof? Well, crime declined in the '90s in cities with "broken windows" policing (NY, LA) at roughly the same rates as cities with opposite policies (Marion Barry's DC). Chalk it up mostly to bigger factors (demographics, good economy, even availabilty of abortion per "Freakonomics"). Moreover, the problem with broken windows policing is that it's just a subterfuge for many warrantless searches and seizures for drugs and a way of providing a lot of inner cities residents with a one way ticket to an upstate gulag. And as much as beggars, the homeless, "squeegee men", bag ladies and even the hated graffiti artists and turnstile jumpers definitely were offensive to the businesspeople and gentry, a society that condones making the poor criminals to get them off the streets so they won't afflict the comfortable is kind of scary. To say nothing of the fact that when the Cromwellian Guliani finally turned his fury on bicyclists and jaywalkers, many saner and more tolerant urbanites finally saw he was getting way too authoritarian for even their tastes. Luckily, as much as he's revered by well-off Manhattanites, his petty anti-drugs crusade won't save him, since there's no room for a pro-choice eastern Liberal pol in Gooperland.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#18)
    by SeeEmDee on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 08:32:54 AM EST
    The standard catechism of terrorists is to cause such panic and fear that the people beg the government to 'protect' them. The only way the government can appear (if it really could have, the terrorist incidents would have been impossible in the first place) to 'protect' the public is to enact laws that are, by their nature, increasingly destructive of the public's civil liberties, causing chafing under those ever restrictive laws until the people themselves throw off the oppressing government, thus doing for the terrorists what the terrorists could not do themselves. No less an authority than that bloody-handed old butcher Lenin said as much. All too predictably, the US government has done just that with the nascent fascism contained within the terribly misnamed PATRIOT Act lying in wait like a coiled snake for the next terrorist event. But it won't be the terrorists who get bitten by it. It remains to be seen just what does indeed trigger its' strike...and who actually triggers it. That a powerful NGO called the Project for a New American Century (nearly all of whose membership now reside in positions of power within the Bush 2 Administration) had called for a "Pearl Harbor type" incident to launch what became the de facto Bush foreign policy as we know it today should give pause as to motivations for desiring such rights-restricting legislation. Fish rot starts with the head; so, evidently, does political rot.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 11:12:33 AM EST
    Jackl writes:
    The basic problem with the "broken windows" theory (that you come down hard on the most minor crimes
    Define hard. Is enforcing the law "coming down hard?" Do you, or do you not, believe that people should be secure inside their property, and that property should be protected? And understand. The "gentry" didn't live in the neighborhoods under attack.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 01:20:51 PM EST
    ppj: Yes, I support all citizens' rights to be secure in their homes and property. You'll note that most of these crimes such as I mentioned were not victimizing people in the neighborhood and in their homes in the way you suggest (by robberies and burglaries, which are "real" crimes and not trumped-up "broken windows" anti-social type behavior ordinances. Rather, the rich and middle-class folks I referred to were definitiely affronted by homeless squeegemen as they waited to get into the Lincoln Tunnel at 30th St and 12th Ave to commute back to New Jersey, or by kids selling or smoking marijuana in Washington Square or Central Parks where they had expensive townhouses and apartments. Also, the super-aggressive street policing in Harlem and elsewhere during Operation Condor where citizens such as Diallo and Dorismund were shot and killed by overly amped up vice cops...I'm not so sure the people in those neighborhoods (except for some clueless clergymen and community leader types) think that the "cure" of white cops was better than the "disease" of street gangs and drug dealing.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 04:07:51 PM EST
    jackl - What you claimed was that society makes poor people criminals to get them off the street. That is hog wash. The people being hurt by these lawless actions were the poor and the middleclass. For ever jumper someone else has to pay his fare. For ever tourist who didn't come to Times Square someone lost their job. For every business that gave up and left the city because they became tired of the aggressive panhandling and fear that their cars would be damaged, someone else would have to pay the taxes they would have paid. The inability of a society to provide a safe and secure environment for ALL its members is a failure. The rights of some to break the law is not protected in our constitution or in our history.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#23)
    by aw on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 06:14:54 PM EST
    For ever tourist who didn't come to Times Square someone lost their job.
    hahahahahahaha ha

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 09:44:59 PM EST
    I really hate it when wingnuts put words into our mouths, like "I'm sure many on the far Left believe that the existence of police itself is an abuse of power", This as they defend the right of police to hold someone for the most minor misdemeanors. I will do the same thing to illustrate the tactic. I'm sure many Republicans would prefer that the President had the power to have any prominent opposition politician, perhaps Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid, put into prison or shipped to Guantanamo. Just by a secret Presidential order, with no right to appeal. See, it really is that easy.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:37:22 PM EST
    The police here in the UK have been given sweeping new powers on the premise that they are too thick to know which law should be applied when arresting someone. I have dealings with our Police every day at my place of work which is London's Metro system, London Underground, I and all my colleagues have known for years that the Police generally don't know what they are doing, and ALWAYS want the easy arrest. As far as the Police are concerned, the biggest problem we have in this country is that most people do not understand that the Police are human beings too, and are just as good or just as corrupt as every other member of society. I wouldn't mind giving extra powers to them if they could be monitored and recorded at all times, accountable for their actions with extremely severe penalties for them if they step out of line, instead of being retired without charge when found to be breaking the law themselves. Yesterday was the first working day for the majority of Londoners after the Christmas break, welcomed back to higher train fares and disruption on several of our lines, our customers can get understandably frustrated, and the first customer who I witnessed swearing at a member of my staff was put to the floor, handcuffed, dragged to his feet and carted off to the Police station. I know that technically he was committing an arrestable offence, but surely that was overkill, and we were only three days in from when the new laws were introduced, last year he would have been taken aside and advised to calm down. This is the tip of the iceberg, worse is on it's way I am sure. By the way, last year it was made illegal for us to demonstrate, without prior permission from the authorities. So, if too many people are going to turn up or the subject of demonstration is distasteful to the Police or Government, permission will not be granted. Totalitarianism indeed.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:03:10 PM EST
    This was written for Hivemind, his countymen and his customers: "No freeman shall be taken, imprisoned, disseised, outlawed, or in any way destroyed, nor will we proceed against him or prosecute him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers, and by the law of the land." --Magna Carta 1215 Chapter 39 This was written for Jose Padilla, and for all American Citizens: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment by a grand jury; Nor shall any person...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." --The Constitution of the United States Amendment V ----- This was written by Joni Mitchell, for everyone. "Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got till it's gone."

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 09:14:36 PM EST
    That's scary Hivemind. Watch yourself brother. But come to think of it, what's the difference really between the new official UK police policy and the old NYPD standbys "disturbing the peace" or "resisting arrest"? Bottom line, police most everywhere in the free world can arrest anybody for anything at anytime. All the free man can do is try to keep his governemt in line. Free men in the so-called free countries are failing miserably in this regard lately.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:26:16 PM EST
    In the UK the Magna Carta is not like a bill of rights or an official constitution, there is no such thing here, it was supposed to be our constitution, but was not or has not been taken up in any official way. Apathy is a big player with the voters in the UK, we don't like ANY politician let alone trust them, they seem only to be able to feather their own nests, and help for the common man is grudgingly given only if the Government's power is seriously threatened. Most laws these days are designed to protect themselves and not the public, our politicians now stink of something awful.

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:34:08 PM EST
    Hivemind: In the UK the Magna Carta is not like a bill of rights or an official constitution You're right of course... I just used reference to it to illustrate the heights that have been lost in the UK and are rapidly being cut down in the US. Totalitarianism indeed...

    Re: UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 24, 2006 at 07:05:12 AM EST
    Welcome To The New World Order. Big Brother Is Watching YOU.

    UK: Police Can Now Arrest for Any Offense | 29 comments (29 topical)