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German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist Forever

Bump and Update: Here is the Der Spiegel interview with Chancellor Merkel in which she discusses her view of U.S. interrogation tactics applied to terror detainees.

SPIEGEL: The US government feels it is legitimate to hold prisoners under water until they believe they are drowning. Is this acceptable to you?

Merkel: There was a similar debate in Germany over the 2002
kidnapping of Jakob von Metzler, the banker's son. The issue then was whether it is legitimate to threaten or use torture to save the life of a child. The public debate showed that the overwhelming majority of citizens believed that even in such a case, the end does not justify the means. That is also my position.

SPIEGEL: Do you agree with Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble's view that in the fight against terrorism, it is necessary to use information that may have been obtained through torture?

Merkel: Not in a criminal proceeding. Information obtained under dubious circumstances cannot play a role in legal proceedings in a constitutional state. But everything that's available must be taken into account in threat prevention. What do you do when other countries' intelligence agencies give you information and you aren't entirely certain about its source? Simply ignore it? That's impossible. We have a duty to guarantee the safety of our citizens.

SPIEGEL: In the interest of threat prevention, can German officials be sent to the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay to interrogate detainees?

Merkel: An institution like Guantanamo in its present form cannot and must not exist in the long term. We must find different ways of dealing with prisoners. As far as I'm concerned there's no question about that.

SPIEGEL: Will you address Guantanamo with President Bush?

Merkel: We will certainly talk about the whole issue of combating terrorism. But it's also important to me, and I'll make this clear during my visit, that our relationship with the United States is not reduced to questions of fighting terrorism and the Iraq war. German-American relations were so good for so many years because they extended deeply into the normal lives of people.

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Original Post: 1/8/06

The new Chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel, will be making her first official U.S. visit later this week. She is scheduled to meet with President Bush on Friday, during which she will ask that Guantanamo be closed down.

"An institution like Guantanamo can and should not exist in the longer term," Merkel said in an interview with Spiegel. "Different ways and means must be found for dealing with these prisoners."

Der Spiegel will publish the entire interview with Chancellor Merkel tomorrow, in English. You will find it here. The German Blog, Atlantic Review, and its commenters, will be discussing the interview, and are hoping for participation by American bloggers.

What do you guys think about this? Are you pleased, disappointed or surprised by Merkel? Are US-German relations still going to improve?

The Atlantic review is edited by three German Fulbright Alumni: Jörg Wolf (Berlin), Sonja Bonin (Seattle) and Jörg Geier (Hamburg).

Here's an example of their prior Guantanamo coverage.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#1)
    by Al on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 05:23:10 PM EST
    What do you expect from people who wear short leather pants in public?

    Not funny. Please post your insults elsewhere.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#3)
    by Sailor on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 06:16:51 PM EST
    I think we should take good advice from people who know a bit about prison camps ... and what a long lasting stain they can have on a country.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 06:32:06 PM EST
    If Chancellor Merkel's reasoning is reflected at all by the Atlantic Reviews past coverage and comments it will be hard to imagine Germanys concerns could be made any plainer:
    "In a wiser past, we tried Nazi war criminals in the sunlight. The extraordinary fairness of these hearings is an attribute of our strength." --Jackson at Nuremburg "The world has never doubted the judgment at Nuremberg. But no one will trust the work of these secret tribunals." --Willett on Guantanamo


    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#5)
    by demohypocrates on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 08:42:05 PM EST
    can and should not exist in the longer term
    that is far from:
    Shut Down Guantanamo
    What part of honesty is a problem???

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#6)
    by Al on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 09:37:02 PM EST
    TL, that was not an insult. It was a joke. If you've read any of my comments about Guantanamo, you know I completely agree with Chancellor Merkel. I was poking fun at the right's rubbish about "old Europe".

    edger, I am not sure what exactly you are trying to say. Please elaborate demohypocrates, "can and should not exist in the longer term" is indeed a call for the closure of Guantanamo. This is how politicians from abroad politely say "Shut it down."

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 05:31:44 AM EST
    Perhaps President Bush can ask her to exaplain the German government's actions in the following matter.
    Germany’s secret release of a Lebanese Hezbollah terrorist convicted of killing a U.S. Navy diver during the 1985 hijacking of TWA 847 revives memories of past German deals with terrorist and their supporters......On Tuesday, German court officials confirmed that they had released Mohammed Ali Hamadi, who had been given a life sentence for killing Robert Stethem..."
    Countries that do such things really shouldn't be paid a lot of attention. Their sense of right and wrong has already failed, yet she wants to lecture us?

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 05:37:17 AM EST
    Atlanticus, Merkel said: "Different ways and means must be found for dealing with these prisoners." In light of the comments published by Atlantic Review that I quoted above, I take Merkel statement to mean that secret prisoners held in secret prisons questioned (tortured?) in secret and their fates decided by secret tribunals is the "dark side" and destroys America reputation and standing in the world, and that there are better methods, in the light of fairness and impartiality, that will contribute to strengthening America, not militarily, but in more important ways. e.g. "If you want the world to look up to America, not hate America, then show them an America they can look up to". I am probably projecting my own wishes and feelings, since we won't see her interview in Der Spiegel till later today, and I don't know Merkel's backround, so those are my hopes for the general tone of what she will have to say.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 09:43:11 AM EST
    From the post:
    "Different ways and means must be found for dealing with these prisoners."
    The above is, of course, like saying that sin is bad and love is good. Yes, the system is imperfect, but what would you actually do with these people? And let us example this statement from the link:
    U.S. military intelligence and German law enforcement authorities had largely concluded
    That statement has a HUGE qualifier. Now, would you let the man go based on that statement? Remember, this isn't the US. He will not be supervised. So, who will be responsible for his actions if the "had largely" becomes, "he was a terorist and just killed 30 people." Who of you will step forward and post his bail? Who of you will serve his time should he kill?

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#11)
    by Sailor on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 10:01:04 AM EST
    This thread is about shutting down gitmo, try to concentrate.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 10:41:39 AM EST
    Is the motivation for opening Pol-e-Charki in Afghanistan, and moving Gitmo detainees there, anticipation of calls like Merkels for closing Gitmo, in the hope that it's far away, out of sight and mind, and that if the pressure to close Gitmo grows too strong, the administration can try to paint themselves as "good guys"? --- Mike Ditto: why when I use "preview" it sometimes takes me back to the old layout?

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 11:01:00 AM EST
    Sailor - You should take your own advice. My comments have been spot on. First, the person suggesting Gitmo be shut down represents a country that secretly released a terrorist who hijacked an airplane and killed an innocent US civilian. Because of that she has little room to discuss anything that has to do with what to do with prisoners in GITMO and US security. She has already demonstrated what Germany would do. Secondly, the example in the post has the huge qualifers I noted. So my question, which is very logical, would you let them go? And if they returned to fight and kill, would you accept responsibility? Actions have results and those results need someone to claim responsibility.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#14)
    by desertswine on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 11:07:38 AM EST
    This thread is about shutting down gitmo, try to concentrate.
    I second the motion.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#15)
    by Andreas on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 11:07:48 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ wrote: "Countries that do such things [as releasing Hamadi] really shouldn't be paid a lot of attention. Their sense of right and wrong has already failed, yet she wants to lecture us?" It is obvious that JimakaPPJ neither knows the facts (nor cares for them) regarding that court decision. It would have been illegal to keep Hamadi in prison for a longer time. Even the US government was aware that it would have been illegal to send Hamadi to the United States (a country which systematically murders and tortures prisoners). BTW: Nationalist arrogance and disregard for the law were (and are) important characteristics of fascism.

    Andreas.... It would have been illegal to keep Hamadi in prison for a longer time. So there ya go PPJ... get your 'facts' straight will ya? You now have the answer... let them go and if they kill again... so what! At least we didn't violate their "rights". You know, the "right" they have to kill people and not be held liable because of 'legal' technicalities.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 11:18:54 AM EST
    Well, the attempted diversions have been pretty well documented, so I'll re-ask: Is the administration trying to set up to be able paint themselves as "good guys"? by moving Gitmo detainees to Pol-e-Charki in Afghanistan, in anticipation of calls like Merkels for closing Gitmo?

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#18)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 11:25:22 AM EST
    Shorter PPJ and BB the president is not bound by any law. Long live fascism!

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 11:48:13 AM EST
    BB: if they kill again... so what! At least we didn't violate their "rights". You know, the "right" they have to kill people and not be held liable because of 'legal' technicalities. The thread here is about closing down Gitmo... not about the rights of cheney/bush/et al...

    The German government itself (albeit the one prior to Merkel) actually sent agents to Cuba and interrogated Murat Kurnaz, a German resident detained at Guantanamo Bay (and for whom the German government has, thus far, not lifted a finger to help, despite our military's conclusion that he has no ties to Al Qaeda or to terrorism). There is a serious question about how serious the German government is about this issue, or if this is simply a political play in light of the Al-Masri rendition fiasco for the benefit of the rubes back home. We'll see...

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#21)
    by aw on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 12:56:41 PM EST
    Well, if we're gonna go off on tangents, PPJ, what about us coddling Cuban terrorists here?

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 03:32:45 PM EST
    So a prison camp on american soil, (see landlord/renter rights), holds prisoners including children w/o charges, tortures them, refuses to ever release them and at best subjects them to a military tribunal w/o a lawyer. This is America? BTW, watch the Poles put an immediate stop to this. I have a feeling some there still remember Treblinka.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 03:37:56 PM EST
    aw, please don't encourage thread hijacking.
    At least we didn't violate their "rights".
    I'm always amazed that some folks who comment on this site are always so unconcerned about human or even American's rights.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#24)
    by aw on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 04:00:27 PM EST
    Hey, Sailor: I knew he wouldn't answer.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 07:35:06 PM EST
    Germany has an interesting way of staying out of the so-called war on terror. They follow the law. I don't see any mushroom clouds over Berlin. Do you, Condi? How about you...DICK?

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#27)
    by aw on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 07:58:58 PM EST
    aw - You like to tag along, what's the answer?
    What's the answer to what? You're all over the place. You didn't answer my question. Sailor, you were right. I will try to never do it again.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#28)
    by Sailor on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 08:04:00 PM EST
    aw, dammit, I warned ya 'bout pokin' the whizzy;-) Che, too f@#$&^ funny!!

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 09:00:55 PM EST
    aw - Nice way to avoid. Che - Yet. Sailor - Don't depend on aw. You the man.

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#30)
    by Andreas on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 10:59:59 PM EST
    There are now 6 "comments" by "JimakaPPJ" in this thread. All of them trollish. I really wonder why such troll activities are accepted here.

    Sailor... I'm always amazed that some folks who comment on this site are always so unconcerned about human or even American's rights It aint about being 'unconcerned'... it's about being "overy" concerned. So much so that you let the few bad ones literally get away with murder! There is a fine line here but for some reason you all don't get it. The choice (as I see it ) is very simple. The rights (lives) of the many outweigh the rights (lives) of the few. You know... Majority rules! It's always been that way and I see no good reason to change now. If tapping the phone of someone in the US or keeping our enemies locked up stops another 9/11.... as far as I'm concerned... that's a no brainer. Why is it you feel the need to protect someone that wants you (and all the rest of us) dead? Please explain this to me?

    Re: German Chancellor: Guantanamo Can't Exist For (none / 0) (#32)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 08:39:46 AM EST
    The choice (as I see it ) is very simple. The rights (lives) of the many outweigh the rights (lives) of the few. You know... Majority rules! It's always been that way and I see no good reason to change now.
    Uh no. The US Consitution and especially the Bill of Rights are written to protect the few from the tryanny of the majority. Back to middle school history class for you

    soccerdad.... to protect the few from the tryanny of the majority Oh yeah...that well known "tyranny" of protecting millions of people from a few hundred of religious maniacs that want us all dead. How dare our Government try and stop these people! I'm sure the authors of the "bill of rights" had this in mind? "we must make sure that anybody that wants to actually bring the country down is protected and has all the accesses to our legal system......so even if they succeed, and we are no longer a country, we will still go down in history as not having offeneded anyone..." Yeah...that sounds good to me... print it!

    Charlie... Good answer....as usual you have nothing!