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U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 01:16:30 PM EST
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From our compassionate Department of Homeland Security, via Duke at Daily Kos: The AP reports:

China is refusing to take back an estimated 39,000 citizens who have been denied immigration to the United States and have clogged detention centers at federal expense, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said yesterday.... Currently, 687 Chinese are being held in federal detention facilities, at a daily rate of $95 each, while some 38,000 have been released on bond or under a monitoring program, such as wearing an electronic surveillance bracelet, the Homeland Security Department said later yesterday. Illegal immigrants can be held for 180 days before they are released.

Chertoff also said Homeland Security would open detention facilities in the next few weeks to house entire families of illegal immigrants who hope to bring their children along in order to avoid jail time. "It'll be humane, but we're not going to let people get away with this," he said.

Chertoff's remarks comes as the Homeland Security Department aims to end its "catch and release" immigration policy by Oct. 1. After that date, all illegal immigrants will be held in U.S. detention centers until they can be returned to their nation of citizenry.

And if they can't be returned because their countries won't take them? Congress is planning on indefinite detention, see Senator Arlen Spector's proposed immigration bill and James "The Menace" Sensenbrenner's House version, H.R. 4437 .

Section 602 of HR 4437 would permit indefinite detention of an increased broad class of non-citizens, including:

* those with a contagious disease
* any non-citizen convicted of an "aggravated felony," (see above)
* non-citizens whose release would pose foreign policy problems
* non-citizens charged even with very minor immigration violations who, based on secret evidence, are deemed a national security risk.

As Duke says:

With HR 4437's provisions for indefinite detention and the reclassification of even minor offenses as aggravated felonies it is quite possible that all 12 million undocumented immigrants in this country could shortly end up in internment camps no different from the refugee camps we see throughout the rest of the world. We just never thought it could happen here.

Guess who has the contract on building the new detention centers? Kellogg, Root & Brown,a Halliburton subsidiary.

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    U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps | 42 comments (42 topical)
    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 01:55:17 PM EST
    We're going to put enough people to populate a state into camp? What a bunch of hateful people. And you know that the press isn't going to cover any of this. On another note, we can't rebuild New Orleans but we can house 12 million illegal immigrants as long as Cheney's Cronies gets the contract?

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#2)
    by swingvote on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:35:51 PM EST
    And if they can't be returned because their countries won't take them? What an interesting twist on the great people's worker's paradise. Not only will they not let you out, if you manage to get out, they won't let you back in. Communism just looks better everyday, doesn't it? Not happy about the idea of internment camps, but what is the alternative? Sending them on to yet another country or changing the inscription on the Statue of Liberty to read "Send us your criminals, your psychopaths, your incorrigibles. We won't send them back"? China once again fails to live up to even the most basic of human standards and naturally it's our fault.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#3)
    by Sailor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:41:22 PM EST
    Communism just looks better everyday, doesn't it?
    Yeah ... just like democracy.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:42:01 PM EST
    Homeland Security Detention Centers....sounds scary. Judging by the way the HSA has been run up to now, I am not confident in their ability to detain people "humanely". And why would we try to send these people back to totalitarian China, when if they were Cubans they would be allowed entry. That ain't right. BTW...Is there even a way to detain people against their will in a humane manner? Isn't putting someone in a cage inherently inhumane?

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:43:20 PM EST
    I am very much pro-immigration but this raises some tough issues. Countries can simply "refuse" to take back their citizens? At the same time, my US citizen Chinese-born wife is considered a Chinese citizen in China and could in theory be arrested for "subversive" activities for which they would probably only deport me. (These are theoretical activities, not real ones -- it takes way too much time dealing with Bush to spend too much time protesting the CCP). Why can these illegal immigrants not be deported back to China given that they are Chinese citizens? Some diplomatic solution to this is necessary. I know it is more profitable for Halliburton the other way, but 39,000 just from China is one might big internment camp.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:46:59 PM EST
    But theyre a marvelous source of those two right/libertarians sin quo nons: dirt cheap labor, and nonexistent regulatory apparatus; which is why your pals invest so heavily over there.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#7)
    by Sailor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:47:45 PM EST
    Oh and the obligatory 'what part of illegal alien doesn't TL understand' can be skipped by JR this time.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#8)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:47:58 PM EST
    That was for j.p.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#9)
    by roy on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:50:12 PM EST
    jp, I don't claim to have a solution, but I suspect much of the Left would just like to make it easier to be here legally. Loosen visa and sanctuary requirements. Those immigrants who turn out to be criminals and psychopaths will go to prison, their home country, or the boobie hatch after an "innocent until proven guilty" bit of due process. Those who are incorrigible will stay there. It could be expensive -- especially if there's a disproportionate number of criminals in need of trials and appeals -- but it would also generate revenue. A lot of people who want to come to America want to come work. More workers and more consumers equals economic growth. They'd pay taxes and pump up the profits of their employers who pay the higher business tax rates. I apologize if I'm putting words in the Left's collective mouth. It's hard not to, their immigration policy is usually "there is a better way".

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 03:13:57 PM EST
    Not happy about the idea of internment camps, but what is the alternative? Sending them on to yet another country or changing the inscription on the Statue of Liberty to read "Send us your criminals, your psychopaths, your incorrigibles. We won't send them back"? China once again fails to live up to even the most basic of human standards and naturally it's our fault.
    Gee, JP, can you say Mariel Boat lift? Say hello to my little friend! Castro's been punkin' Florida since before I like Ike said watch out for the Military Industrial Complex on his way out the WH Door.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 03:14:29 PM EST
    but I suspect much of the Left would just like to make it easier to be here legally. Loosen visa and sanctuary requirements
    I'd go along with that roy. Asylum for all people escaping totalitarian regimes. After the asylum cases, I'd open our doors to anyone without a history of violence or violent crime, first priority to those who seek citizenship. Focus our immigration dept. resources on background checks to root out the violent criminals and terrorists. The Chinese people being detained should be offered the opportunity for asylum, if for no other reason than their country won't let them access all of the internet. I'd bet they'd be lining up to become citizens and pledge allegiance. That would be a beautiful thing. The Chinese government is whack...no doubt about that. Let's be better and give these people a shot to take a dip in the melting pot.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#12)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 03:51:05 PM EST
    Theyre "totalitarian", but we'll give them all the positive reinforcement they need to remain that way as long as its profitable in some quarters. Yeah, we're about "spreading democracy.'

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:15:14 PM EST
    roy writes:
    Those immigrants who turn out to be criminals and psychopaths will go to prison, their home country, or the boobie hatch after an "innocent until proven guilty" bit of due process. Those who are incorrigible will stay there.
    roy, maybe you failed to notice that China is refusing to take ANY of them back. That would include the good ones and the bad ones.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#14)
    by Steven Sanderson on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:17:24 PM EST
    How long will it take before the right wing nincompoops decide to make the internees work to earn their keep? It's a sure bet that when the forced labor begins that there'll be no pesky unions butting in.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:29:05 PM EST
    Jim - Fill us all in on how your heros are committed to spreading democracy ( thier highest priority aside from cheap labor, deregulation and paying back The Pioneers) in China.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:34:39 PM EST
    Well, they're really up against it Jondee, let's face it, things are pretty bleak when ya can't pull a thousand pieces of lint over Jessica Simpson's eyes anymore. Even she's cracked the code.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:41:03 PM EST
    roy, maybe you failed to notice that China is refusing to take ANY of them back. That would include the good ones and the bad ones. Gee, imagine that. And they've got such an underpopulation problem, too. All those wide open spaces. That's really gonna hurt them.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#18)
    by roy on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:57:40 PM EST
    Jim,
    roy, maybe you failed to notice that China is refusing to take ANY of them back. That would include the good ones and the bad ones.
    If my reading of the Left's group mind is correct, those Chinese aliens who haven't commited a serious crime (breaking immigration law doesn't count) should simply be released in America with a visa. Those who have commited a serious crime should be fairly tried and -- if the crime merits it -- imprisoned. More generally... The list of deportable offense would be much shorter under my hypothetical liberal's proposal than under current policy. Even illegally crossing the border might not merit deportation. If someone commits one of those crimes, and is convicted in a fair trial, we try to deport him. If his home country won't take him, we punish him the same as we would a citizen, potentially including imprisonment. When he completes his sentence, we let him out, with a visa. Appealing of convictions needs to go in that plan somewhere. My hypothetical liberal hasn't worked that part out yet.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 05:15:31 PM EST
    roy - At the very least they are guilty of being an illegal alien. I think we should put'em in parachutes, do a fly over the coast and push'em out. And yes, my sense of humor over this type of stuff has evaporated.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 05:42:05 PM EST
    roy: I suspect much of the Left would just like to make it easier to be here legally. Loosen visa and sanctuary requirements. I suspect you're probably right, roy. Speaking for myself, that would be a good move, and probably be less costly to Joe Taxpayer than running camps. The good ones, which in any random group of people I think generally turns out to be most, would probably live and work and integrate into society like anyone else. The bad ones, like the minority of any group, i.e.: Those immigrants who turn out to be criminals and psychopaths will go to prison, their home country, or the boobie hatch after an "innocent until proven guilty" bit of due process. Makes sense, Roy. Not rocket science. Just takes someone who can think straight to see it.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#21)
    by swingvote on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 05:43:45 PM EST
    But theyre a marvelous source of those two right/libertarians sin quo nons: dirt cheap labor, and nonexistent regulatory apparatus; which is why your pals invest so heavily over there. Typical Jondee BS. Wrong on som many counts (and in so few words) it's not even worth rebutting. Jondee makes bold assumptions and, as usual, get it wrong. can you say Mariel Boat lift? Say hello to my little friend! Castro's been punkin' Florida since before I like Ike said watch out for the Military Industrial Complex on his way out the WH Door. Is this Charlie channeling Jondee, or Jondee pretending to be Charlie? It's hard to tell, the similarities are so strong. But it must be Charlie, given just how wrong it is and how, as is so often the case with Charlie, it's a nonresponse to something no one said while at the same time attempting to validate one nations bad behaviour by citing another's. Typical rubbish. Save the bandwidth, clowns.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 06:06:40 PM EST
    j.p - "So few words," You should try it sometime. I think I can whittle your typical offering down even further: the reps are too liberal and the dems are socialists. Btw, great, cogent, refutation. Viva Joe and Zell.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 06:31:40 PM EST
    Posted by Jondee March 17, 2006 07:06 PM
    j.p - "So few words," You should try it sometime. I think I can whittle your typical offering down even further: the reps are too liberal and the dems are socialists. Btw, great, cogent, refutation. Viva Joe and Zell
    Ya gotta love the Jeepster, Jondee. Mr. Tell you what you really mean himself. The fella engages in more of the very behavior he's constantly accusing everyone else of than maybe even ppj himself. The sad thing is, with all that practice, ya think they'd be better at it. They really are pikers. Still, high marks for enthusiasm. The boy is just a jeepster for his shrub.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 06:38:28 PM EST
    A prison camp where you can bring the whole family. Truly bizarre. And free electronic surveillance bracelets. Cool. I want one. You'd think with all the 'extraordinary rendition' going on, they could just render these guys to one of the ready-made death camps the US already has in Roumania or Bulgaria. Well, maybe 39,000 Chinese is a lot of air fares. What do you make of the Homeland Security man's comment: 'It'll be humane, but we're not going to let people get away with this.' It sounds very grudgingly humane. If not ominous. And what are they getting away with besides a spell in the slammer?

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 08:55:45 PM EST
    So, what TL is saying is that we can't refuse anyone admission to the U.S. Instead of complaining about China refusing to take their people back, she wants to complain about the U.S. What if 1000 people came here with very infectuous cases of TB? Would TL allow us to ask the sending country to take them back, or would we have to spend the millions of dollars necessary to take care of them just because we're who we are? Does TL or TC have any concept whatsoever of national sovereignty?

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 05:52:31 AM EST
    the reps are too liberal and the dems are socialists. Show me where I have ever said such a thing Jondee. You don't even lie well. You just continue to make assinine accusations with no merit or thought. You paint everyone you disagree with, on anything, with one broad brush, label them "neo-cons", make assertions about who their friends are, and then sit there feeling smug about yourself. What a waste of effort, but I guess it's all you have to offer where you're not cutting-and-pasting from another blog. And speaking of lies, Charlie (aka Jondee) kicks in with: The boy is just a jeepster for his shrub. My shrub, Charlie? I thought he was your shrub. After all, you're the one in favor of internment camps, racism, and screwing the little guy, not me. Just another typcial case of projection in Charlie's small-minded world. Keep up the good work. You're "dismissed" now Charlie. Such a waste of time.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 06:15:21 AM EST
    After all, you're the one in favor of internment camps, racism, and screwing the little guy, not me. Got a link, or even a quote to back that up? Didn't think so. You don't even lie well. You just continue to make assinine accusations with no merit or thought. Just another typical case of projection in your small-minded world.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#28)
    by jen on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 06:36:34 AM EST
    I suspect much of the Left would just like to make it easier to be here legally. Loosen visa and sanctuary requirements.
    "suspect"??? really? After so many of us have been advocating that for decades you "suspect" that? No wonder if feels like talking to a brick wall sometimes.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 07:08:54 AM EST
    Jen - With a world population of around 6 and a half BILLION people most of who want to come to the US, you might start thinking about where we will put them, and what our country will look like and be after they get here. Remember that our basic background is European and Common English Law. How long do you think that will last if you bring in hundreds of millions who have no concept of what that means? Especially when the Left wants to "celebrate the differences" by not demanding that they learn English and recognize the supremacy of our legal system? For a quick look at what happens, check our Europe/Australia and remember the Moslem riots.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#30)
    by roy on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 07:15:53 AM EST
    Jen,
    "suspect"??? really? After so many of us have been advocating that for decades you "suspect" that? No wonder if feels like talking to a brick wall sometimes.
    When I claim to know what "the Left" wants, I catch flak for putting words in others' mouths. When I admit that I don't, I drown in sarcasm. Fantastic. While some Leftist politicans have surely advocates specific plans over the decades, that's only so helpful for fueling discussion. The problem here is that immigration threads typically start with TL calling our attention to the disadvantage to the current policy, without offering her own ideas beyond strengthening due process requirements. Other commenters follow up, complaints but no ideas. That's not a bad thing. There's plenty to complain about. It just doesn't help move the debate past one side advocating fences and deportation and camps, and the other side pointing out the problems. There have been few exceptions; Johnny suggested we fine employers $1M if they an illegal. It made for a good debate, but I don't think it helped bring a typical Leftist border and immigration policy into the discussion. So instead of complaining about my over hedging, maybe you could help flesh out the idea or advocate a real Leftist's plan so we don't have to go by my guess?

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 07:46:56 AM EST
    Here is the DOD document that details the plan for civilian imate labor program: www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf I have wondered for a while who the hell would be occupying the labor camps. Now, the answer is clear. Be sure to read page 16, which specifys the type of imate who cannot be housed in the camps.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#32)
    by jen on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 07:47:45 AM EST
    1. not all 6.5 billion want to come here 2. the better things are where they are the fewer will want to come. trying to make things better instead of worse might help. 3. give it a few years and the number of americans and residents emigrating will become a little more visible. They are making room for others. 4. who else would do the work at the wages no one else wants

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 07:53:18 AM EST
    Gee, JP, don't blow a fuse, fella. So, now you're sayin,' what? That me and Jondee are the same person? That we're like each others evil twin or something? You're gettin' a little carried away with this "they all look alike" stuff.
    So, now I'm a shrub fan, eh? An acolyte of the gospel according to dubya.
    My shrub, Charlie? I thought he was your shrub. After all, you're the one in favor of internment camps, racism, and screwing the little guy, not me. Just another typcial case of projection in Charlie's small-minded world. Keep up the good work.
    And I said all this, when? That's what I thought. JP, I don't mind ya stealin' my old lines. Lord knows ya gotta class up your act some how so I'm happy to do my bit for the Community at Large, but when you continually do a preposterously poor job at outright slander like linking me to the nitwit in chief, I've gotta draw the line.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 11:41:29 AM EST
    Jen - Okay. Let's knock it down to 25%. 1. That leaves only 1.75 billion wanting into a country with 300 million now. Try thinking about 2 billion people in the US. 2. True. But if we continue to take the people who are disatisfied, change in the parent country is reduced. 3. Emigration out of the US will never be a factor. I mean all of Hollywood keeps threatening, but no one ever goes. Damnit. 4. Labor is a commodity and the illegals flood the market with a cheap product. Shut down the illegal immigration and wages will rise. Of course that means that you'll have to pay a bit more to Americans. Now, if you have a problem with that, I don't want to hear anymore complaints about "outsourcing." You ignore the culture problem.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#35)
    by jen on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    I'm not talking about hollywood, I'm talking about normal everyday people. There has always been a normal level of emigration. Canada at least seems to be seeing a rise. I don't know about other countries.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 01:11:04 PM EST
    Check out Munich Chief of Police Himmler's March 21, 1933 letter, A Concentration Camp for Political Prisoners in the Dachau Area, reprinted at Counterpunch.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 04:13:28 PM EST
    Jen - I understood. And I again say the outflow will never be significant. The Hollywood comment was just a wishful statement. TalkLeft - These are not political prisoners. They are illegal aliens whose country will not take them back? At what point would you say no?

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 05:42:53 PM EST
    TalkLeft - These are not political prisoners. They are illegal aliens whose country will not take them back? At what point would you say no?
    Gee, That's funny. They always political refugees when they're Cuban and they wash up on Florida shores. And yet, when they're Haitian, they're not. Why do you think that is, Jim? One would almost think the repos are just lookin' for a reliable voting bloc. Legal or not.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 19, 2006 at 12:33:34 PM EST
    charlie - And what is your point? That no Cuban is and 38,000 Chinese are?

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 19, 2006 at 12:40:55 PM EST
    jp - Youve called Kennedy and Clinton socialists ; made Kerry sound as if he were training a guerrilla army somewhere in the Bekshires (that is,when he wasnt "cavorting" in the Alps with the rest of the liberal elite), and now you get apoplectic when youre called on it. Try practicing a little self awareness; passive-aggressive wingnut you can get away with; name calling wingnut aint gonna fly here.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Sun Mar 19, 2006 at 01:32:16 PM EST
    That no Cuban is and 38,000 Chinese are?
    Strawman alert! One poster tries to expose the hypocrisy of the gov'ts policies, the other tries to distract from the discourse. Back on topic: The US gov't is opening yet another gulag.

    Re: U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 19, 2006 at 03:04:09 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ
    March 19, 2006 01:33 PM charlie - And what is your point? That no Cuban is and 38,000 Chinese are?
    Gee, Jim, I guess I've got to draw you yet another in a never ending series of maps. That if the Cubans are political refugees but the Haitians and the Chinese are not, then the hypocrisy of the repos and yourself knows no bounds. Ya follow?

    U.S. to Open Chinese Internment Camps | 42 comments (42 topical)