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Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allegations

Newsweek has an excellent wrap-up of the Duke Lacrosse team rape allegations, including a few new facts. One seems to make more viable a theory I floated in comments here and mentioned on Fox News yesterday-- that there may have been a physical altercation over the money, rather than a rape, that led to the broken fingernails.

In recounting the accuser's side, Newsweek writes:

They had just begun their performance when the men became "excited and aggressive." According to Nifong, one of the players called out, "Did you bring any sex toys?" When the women answered no, a man said, "That's OK, we'll just use a broom." Frightened, the strippers ran outside to their car. One of the men followed and coaxed one of the women to come back in. When she did, she told police, she was forced into a bathroom and held down while three men forced her to have sex. According to Nifong, she claimed that the men robbed her and that she broke off several fake fingernails clawing one of her attackers.

I wrote in the comments:

Fake fingernails can come off pretty easy, and as I said above, there could have been a physical fight when the players wanted their money back because the woman left after just a few minutes of dancing that could account for the external injuries....as to the sex, maybe it occurred at the house, maybe it happened before or after. Maybe it was with one person, maybe he was a lacrosse team member or maybe he was just a guy attending the party.

Too few facts are known right now, it's too soon to convict anyone of anything, particularly an entire team of lacrosse players.

Newsweek reports that the neighbor, Jason Bissey says the party broke up five minutes after the women left. Now for Newsweek recapping the defense side:

But if the three lacrosse captains who occupy the house had anything to hide, they didn't act like it. They cooperated in the search and voluntarily went down to the police station to give statements, without lawyers present. Their offer to take a lie-detector test was rebuffed by police. No one accompanied her into the bathroom, the players told police. Defense lawyer Cheshire says, "Evidence I've heard indicates that the accuser was acting as if she was inebriated by some substance at the party." He added, "The defense is looking closely into the background of the accuser."

The players' families reject the cliché that the Duke players are privileged louts. Two of the players are sons of retired New York City firemen who responded to the 9/11 attacks. (The proprietor of one local escort agency who refused to be identified because she did not wish to get involved in the probe told NEWSWEEK, "I don't send people to Duke. College students are immature, not alone and there's usually drugs and alcohol.")

On the politics involved in the crime:

Joseph Cheshire, a lawyer representing one of the players, says that the prosecutor has unfairly tried the players in the media to serve his own political agenda. (Nifong is up for re-election in May and one of his opponents is black.) "The real story," says Cheshire, "is how he has pandered to the public to stir up race and class division." Nifong did not respond to repeated requests for comment on Cheshire's charge.

Signifying Nothing, one of whose authors is Chris Lawrence, a visiting political science professor at Duke this year, has been writing some good stuff.

Update: More timeline details from the Charlotte News Observer reporter who interviewed the accuser afterwards.

She got the call about 8:30 that night; she was to show up at about 11:30. The first time that she had ever met that co-worker she says was at that location.

Update: Comments are just about at 100 , time to close them. There will be an updated thread when more news breaks on the case. Thanks to all for your thoughts.

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    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#1)
    by Jlvngstn on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 01:55:47 PM EST
    Jeruglusiac, I could not post in the other thread so here is my follow-up: It is a crappy situation either way. Some people will take their side because the women were "strippers" other people will say "college athletes are barbarict" and no one but hose involved will ever know the truth. I don't know what happened in the room but I do know that their is precedent for someone claiming to be raped and thanks to video that proved otherwise the men were not arrested and falsely convicted. On the other hand there are countless cases of men date raping women and getting off because the jury could not agree that it was not consensual. As far as the fingernails go that tells me nothing. What if there was an argument over money and the women started to get physical? The vaginal bruising I know squat about. If there were multiple consensual partners could that have happened? I don't think so but again, I am not a doctor nor well versed on the subject but at first glance I take it as evidence of a sexual assualt but again, with multiples is it possible. As a father and husband and brother and someone who knows 3 rape victims personally, I think it is a horrible, horrible crime, but I find it hard to come to judgement based on the limited facts I have read and with precedent demonstrating that it is better to have a video tape than not. If there was a sexual assault I hope all 46 get prosecuted, those who did not participate were complicit for not intervening. IF there was not a rape, then I hope the women get counseling, not charged.

    What makes you think all 46 team members were at the party? And according to the accuser in the search warrant affidavit, the three closed the bathroom door where the alleged rape occurred. If there were just the three and her in the bathroom as she alleges, maybe no one else heard or saw anything.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jlvngstn on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 02:14:31 PM EST
    The way I read the story I assumed they were all there during the incident. I must have read that wrong, and if so I apologize.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 02:17:31 PM EST
    to Sadie B. who commented in the other thread-From my point of view the guys fit my stereotype of the worst our society has to offer. I think of our dear leader in his younger days as fitting into that crowd. So, I was taken aback by TL' s post because it reminded me that stereotypes have no place in the application of justice. They are bad business all around.
    We should not value the tool of presumption over the goal of justice.
    These two things are inseparable. And yes, those with less power often never get to see justice. It would be wonderful if we could hold off judgment of others until we know who they really are and what they did. Yes, I would love to see people ordinarily assumed to be macho racist a**holes treat others with respect as you muse, but shouldn't that go both ways? Surprise is a good thing here. I was surprised by TL's position, as in her blogging she most often supports those with the least amount of power over those who are more powerful. Often the power balance falls along lines of race and class and gender, but to assume that is always true is a big mistake. BTW- I do not assume that by being cooperative the guys appear less likely to have commited a crime. The fact that they are not all upper class rich kids also does not suggest that the policemen did not make them feel 'comfortable enough' to come in on their own without their lawyers. Do you think that if the accused were not white and the dancers were white, the police would have acted in the same way. I don't.

    TalkLeft, again, not trying to be a jerk, but in the last thread you accused me of distorting your words, yet the words in question were written after my post.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jlvngstn on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 02:45:38 PM EST
    TL - 3 white guys at a party disappear with a black stripper into a bathroom and no one pays attention? I find it hard to believe that if there were a rape being committed by 3 men in a bathroom that no one else in the house took notice. Whether or not there was screaming the fact that they took the woman into the bathroom some of the other attendees would have crowded around the door to hear what was going on. Even if it was consensual, my guess is that the other party attendees would want to find out if the guys were paying for sex and curiousity would have gotten at least some of them to investigate. A false rape charge is monumentally more significant and damaging than a false theft charge, especially when the media is involved. Another textbook example of why we should protect the rights of the accused especially as it relates to their identity until they are proven guilty. What I find really perplexing are the posters here that are certain these women were raped. I don't think any of us were there and cannot say for certain either way. It would seem to me that trials serve that purpose. JERU - Who is trashing the alleged victims? It sounds to me like you are bashing the alleged accused. Is it your contention that every woman who makes an accusation of rape was raped? I provided in the previous thread very similar situations and the best you can come up with is that the alleged rapist convinced the woman to act like she was having a good time on video while he was taping it (without her knowledge) and she was such a good actress that she fooled those who reviewed the tape as they all believed she was a willing participant. Just another reason to say no to strippers and hookers.........

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#9)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 03:11:03 PM EST
    TalkLeft, again, not trying to be a jerk, but in the last thread you accused me of distorting your words, yet the words in question were written after my post.
    The same can't be said about you misquoting my statment.
    Posted by Sadie B. April 2, 2006 10:01 AM Big Tex says, "prostitutes always cry rape when you don't pay them." I say, "If you don't pay a prostitute, then it is rape."
    Posted by BigTex April 1, 2006 06:52 PM At the very least, prositiutes are known to cry rape when they aren't paid.
    Your quote was April 2, while mine was April 1.

    Christ, this is unbelievable. Yes, our working girls could be telling the truth. On the other hand, they could be lying. What say we let the authorities investigate, shall we? Once again, the University should force the entire team to cooperate fully or face loss of scholarship and expulsion from the Duke University. They should be tried charged and convicted before they're crucified. Assuming they're charged in the first place. This is not Kobe Bryant. This is not the Movie Accused. This is not a metaphor or a surrogate for every college campus or other ramp ever committed. This is this case. That's all it is.

    Tex persists in trying to paint the accused as the victims, saying: "The harm to reputation is real, and a finding of not guilty doesn't erase the stigma because of the difficult nature of proving rape." To my mind, this is a good thing. The boys are guilty of hiring a pair of escorts (i.e. prostitutes), and at the very minimum, assaulting one of them. The fingernails in the bathroom tell us something happened in there, even if the boys are maintaining that no one followed the victim into the bathroom. Even if there is never a conviction in this case, everyone who attended that party should have to hang their heads around the Duke campus for a while, they should have a hard time looking their professors and the other students in the eye. One likes to think that the next time somebody says, "hey I have a great idea, let's hire some prostitutes for our next party!" someone else will say, "let's don't."

    Jerulasic, I didn't trash the accuser and you know it. You are about to be limited to four comments a day, you are starting to chatter on this topic. If you have something substantive to say, fine. If you are going to distort others' comments and repeat your position over and over without adding anything new, then you are chattering, see the comments policy. Sadie, you're not being a jerk (at least not yet). But I never claimed any of those things. And this comment, written before your's, make that clear.

    And Tex, that was a paraphrase. Soira wanted to know where you got your information. I assumed it was experience but I was too generous to say so, until now.

    Are you suggesting that false accusations are not a problem? Any false report of a crime is a problem, but with rape it is a sepcial category. Rapists are considered to be the worst of the worst. They are deemed such a threat to society that we make them register on sex offender lists. They are branded with a scarlet letter that fegally follows them around for the rest of their lives.
    What I'm "suggesting" is that false reports of rape occur with the same frequency of other false reports, which is between 2 and 4 percent. Of course it's always a bad thing when someone files a false claim of ANY crime. However, I don't think a 2-4 percentage rate is a signal of a problem, no matter which type of crime we're referring to. So I refuse to give a tiny percentage rate of false reports of rape any undue significance. Not only is it a tiny percentage, it's the same percentage as other reports. Nothing at all to warrant extra consideration. As for the idea that accused rapists experience an extreme degree of societal backlash, that claim just doesn't hold up under the light of reality. Accused rapists don't have their reputations dragged through the mud. Where a rape VICTIM has the entirety of her sexual history and other facets of life put on public display for people to judge whether or not she was pure enough to have been raped, a rapist's background is displayed so that people can see what a wonderful guy he is. [remainder deleted due to length.]

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#16)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 03:59:23 PM EST
    And Tex, that was a paraphrase.
    Then don't put quotes around it.
    Soira wanted to know where you got your information. I assumed it was experience but I was too generous to say so, until now.
    I know people on both ends, those who have been raped, and those who have been accused of rape. Thankfully, I am in neither category. However, I've linked my sources for all to see.
    The boys are guilty of hiring a pair of escorts (i.e. prostitutes), and at the very minimum, assaulting one of them.
    Not the entire team. The former is likely true for those at the party, but the latter we don't know. However, we can be relativly sure no more than 3, if any at all, went into the restroom with the alleged victim. No one is claiming more than 3 people at the party were in the bathroom. So that gives 43 people who were not in the bathroom, and an unknown number of the 46 who weren't even on the premesis when the alleged assault took place. I'm not soft on criminals, but when someone is called in and forced to give a DNA sample for an alleged rape, when they weren't even at the location where the rape took place, and the DA says he doesn't care, that's a big big problem. Thats a strike at the 4th Amendment, which protects us all. This isn't even a case where the wrongfully implied can even stand on their 4th Amendment rights. To do so would make it look like they were covering for their teammates.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#17)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 04:00:29 PM EST
    Anyways, most here have already made up their mind on the position, and no meanigful dialogue is taking place anymore, so will bow out of the conversation at this point.

    I was unable to comment on the previous thread, so here is what I wanted to say to BigTex:
    At the very least, prositiutes are known to cry rape when they aren't paid.
    How do you KNOW this to be an incontrovertible fact, out of curiosity? Prostitutes know all too well the nature of their business and the way it is perceived by society. You're going to be hard-pressed to convince me that any measureable number of prositutes will report an actual rape, much less make a false allegation. For a prostitute, even when rape does happen, it's even more difficult for them to be believed than it is for women who aren't prostitutes, due to the whole "you can't rape a prostitute" myth. To say nothing of the fact that most prostitutes are afraid to go to the police, their profession not being exactly legal. Women in general are disbelieved, ridiculed, shamed, and threatened when they report rape; for prostitutes that reality is even more hostile. So. You claim that it's known that prostitutes "cry rape", and present this supposed fact as if it's a common problem. Got any actual cites to back this up?
    I wasn't doing that at all. I was referring to the instences of when a charge leveyed years after the fact. One of the Priests where I attend receintly had an allegation made against him. The alleged incident took place 29 years ago. It is difficult to believe that a person suddenly is offended or suddenly gains the courage to report 29 years after the fact. Rather it seems more likely the claim is either false, the result of an implanted memory, or the person simply did not care at the time. It is difficult to believe a person would not have filed a claim at this late date if not for collateral purposes. Now, maybe I'm wrong here, but waiting 29 years to report doesn't sound like someone who cares about what happened 29 years ago, espically since a different accusation was leveled at the Priest in question in the interviening 29 years.
    Only someone who's never been sexually assaulted and has negligible reason to ever fear being assaulted would say something so assinine. [remainder deleted to length. Please stay on topic of the Duke case.]

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 04:11:14 PM EST
    How do you KNOW this to be an incontrovertible fact, out of curiosity?
    At the very least it has been the genesis of some legal cases. Note, I didn't say it happened in this case, only that it happens. If you are going to be intellectually honest, you will admit that it happens. Whether or not it happened here I neither know nor claim to know.
    If someone waits a number of years after the abuse to come forward, the chances are that they planned never to come forward at all, but something happened to trigger a need in them to become public about it.
    Why then not come foreward when another similar charge is leveied? Waiting almost 3 decades makes belief difficult. At the very least memory is fuzzy. Memories change over time. False memories come home to roost.
    Only to someone who has an invested interest in making them a problem. False rape accusations are no more a problem than false accusations of any other crime.
    Are you suggesting that false accusations are not a problem? Any false report of a crime is a problem, but with rape it is a sepcial category. Rapists are considered to be the worst of the worst. They are deemed such a threat to society that we make them register on sex offender lists. They are branded with a scarlet letter that fegally follows them around for the rest of their lives. Also, there is a counter stigma to what you suggest attaches to rape victims. Some say shame and stigma on the female, but others say a female wouldn't make such an accusation up. To those, a person accused is a person guilty. To be accused as a rapist is to attach the stigma of rapist. The harm to reputation is real, and a finding of not guilty doesn't erase the stigma because of the difficult nature of proving rape.
    Claims of false reports being as high as 25% ... always stem from biased groups with, again, a vested interest in high percentages.
    Those groups may seize upon the stats, but the source I gave was neutral. It was the DoJ which doesn't have an interest in creating inflated false report numbers.
    Rape cases in small towns are more likely to be written off as false because there's a greater concentration of Good Ol' Boy syndrome .
    Once again, what you say does not mesh with the studies cited. The study I cited did not tally the rape as a false report unless the person making the report recanted the statement. If the LE department didn't believe the person that wasn't enough for a false report. The only way a report was tallied as false was if the person making the report said it was a false report. Now, that doesn't mean that a rape didn't occur, only that the person who initially cried rape said a rape didn't occur. Let's say that in half of those cases a rape actually took place. That still leavs 20% of the time a false report has been filed. Not an unfounded report, but an actual false report. ...I never said that the true figure was 40+%. I said that it was likely somewhere between 3% and 25%. [edited for length]

    If there is one obvious parallel between this case and the case of Michael Skakel, it is that society has little patience with material witnesses who feel they have no duty to help the police investigate the circumstances surrounding violent crimes, whether real or pretended. I appreciate living in a society that is impatient with such people. Justice is best served when it is least stalled. Justice delayed is justice denied.

    Can everyone who is calling these women escorts or prostitutes please STOP it right now? They were dancers. It's just as much a crime to rape a prostitute as it is any other woman, BUT THESE WOMEN WERE not PROSTITUTES!

    Soira, sorry. Someone else earlier called them escorts and I assumed that was true, but Newsweek says they were strippers. I stand corrected.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 04:41:57 PM EST
    To bring another piece of writing into this thread, here is an interesting ESPN online piece about the incident, though more about the rocky relationship between Duke U. and the city of Durham than about the exact details of the case, but enlightening nonetheless.

    The dancer provided her version of events to the Charlotte News Observer.
    The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week. "It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule. This was the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively for a group, she said.


    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#23)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 05:15:07 PM EST
    Escort/Dancer/Striptease Artist, can't a girl multi-task? Not to be flip, but when do we start acknowledging the simple fact that these kinds of claims from "these kinds of women" are viewed with more scrutiny and skepticism than usual because of one thing: a ton of public prejudice. They have a harder claim to make for no other reason than what they do for a living. Firemen get injured in fires and we don't say, well, you kinda had it coming to you.

    Okay you have 46 partygoers and your victim says she was raped by three of them. She can't tell you anything more than "they were white." You have fake fingernails with somebody's DNA underneath them, but the witnesses at the party are all sticking together, claiming that none of them know anything about it. They are not surrendering three of their own. Anyone else have any idea of how one goes about identfying which three are your suspects, besides testing all of the white males at the party? And if the DNA under the nails does not match any of the partygoers, wouldn't that be useful information as well?

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 05:22:27 PM EST
    I wonder if those women (or their possible employers) knew they were going to be dancing for 46 college lacrosse players? That was a stupid business decision. OTOH I think these kids assaulted the women. According to the Newsweek article they were not seeking help. A grocery clerk called 911. The medical report states there were injuries consistent with assault. Money and makeup bag left behind. There were more quotes from the neighbor. Stupid business decisions notwithstanding, these kids f***ed up big time.

    A mistake is a f-up. This was not a f-up, this was a crime. As for "bad business decisions", that is completely irrelevant to the case. NOTHING the women did or their employers did has any bearing on their being assaulted and raped.

    Sadie, She named the three, Adam, Bret and Matt in the affidavit for the search warrant. There are more than one matt on the team. Matt Zash who lives in the house immediately offered to take a lie detector and went right away, the night of the search to get DNA tested. He was interviwed. So did the other two guys who live at the house. They did this without lawyers. I don't believe there is an "Adam" on this year's team. Not all of those at the party were on the Lacrosse team, and not every lacrosse team member was present at the party.

    troll comment deleted. This person continues to post the same thing over and over in an insulting way. She is banned from the site.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#15)
    by rigel on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 05:44:22 PM EST
    "The harm to reputation is real, and a finding of not guilty doesn't erase the stigma because of the difficult nature of proving rape." this is horse*** a few years back at UF, there was a similar rape case. a stripper came to a frat party, was raped ON VIDEO (the narrator even did a sports-announcer-type play-by-play, calling it rape several times), but i presume because of the fact that it was at a frat house (i.e. college property) and the necessity of publishing the yearly crime statistics, they were never actually charged with rape. the stripper ran down the street naked to a cousin or aunt's house a couple blocks away to escape this situation. but no rape charges. the kids involved all finished their stints at UF. no stigma whatsoever, despite everything being documented. the state attorney simply decided not to charge them with rape. oh, and to charge the stripper with soliciting prostitution. so let's wait and let the facts come out before picking sides, hm?

    I've heard enough from people talking in generalities about rape. This is a criminal defense lawyer's site. The purpose of talking about the case is to discuss the facts as they come to light, theories about what might have happened, not to prejudge the guilt of those accused. If you want to argue for guilt, or go on and on about your views of rape or statistics, please find another blog. I think every possible view has been aired in this comment thread and the earlier one, and my interest is in the factual and legal aspects to this particular case, not any other case, and in any political overtones it has. (As in the DA proclaiming on the Abrams report that a rape has occurred --and the fact that he's running in a tough reelection campaign in May.) Additional comments that are not about the facts, law, and new developments risk being deleted.

    I'm not clear on where the line is drawn between theories on what might have happened versus prejudging the accused, so if I'm on the wrong side of the line go ahead and delete me and I won't take it personally. I'm not a lawyer, as I've already said, but my father is, and a criminal defense one, too, so I was not being facetious when I said the world would be a terrible place without them. I grew up with a charcoal drawing of Clarence Darrow scowling down at me, it was titled "Attorney for the Damned." These two threads have been, for me, like nothing so much as dinner table conversations with my father, and it is in that spirit that I would like to offer one final observation. If I were the defense for the accused in this case, the Loose Woman/ Reverse Racism Conspiracy Defense would be my absolute last choice. If I had any stronger hand to play, you can bet I would be playing it.

    It's been reported in the press that the boyz who did this -- er, were ALLEGED to have done this -- told her they were active in other sports than LaCrosse. IOW, they were lying to her in order to protect their identities. Why wouldn't the boyz lie about their names too? The facts in the case are that the woman was raped-- both her own report, witnesses and medical examination certainly convinced the DA. Yet people here want to act as if the rape itself is in question. Here's a question about the law and the practice of it in our society: Is there any other type of assault -- er, alleged assault -- where the victim is automatically, as a matter of course, NOT believed about whether a crime took place or not? Are people who were burglarized or mugged disbelieved as a matter of course? How 'bout people reporting stolen cars, or kidnapping? The discussions I've seen, and not just on this blog tho plenty on this blog, and the discussions about Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney's latest press (also elsewhere) have shown me how incredibly racist and sexist our culture really is -- and you bet that's a legal issue as well as a moral one. Overwhelmingly, people (mostly men) are more than willing to disbelieve and discredit and place the blame or responsibility on these two black women. The alleged rapists get the presumption of innocence while a presumption of wrongdoing lands automatically on the victims' shoulders. That is misogynist and racist, and you darned well better believe that affects our laws, our law enforcement, judicial system, etc. It affects all that to such an extent that statistically very, very few criminals who rape ever get convicted and even fewer serve time. Yet women who study this know that every rapist is a serial rapist. There's something wrong with a legal system -- and a culture -- that facilitates and enables sexual violence against women while actively protecting perpetrators. There's something wrong with a society that believes all other victims of crimes EXCEPT women who've been sexually assaulted. And I don't give a darn about the so-called "presumption of innocence" in the rape case -- when every victim of every other type of crime is treated as callously and with the same suspicious incredulousness about their veracity, then maybe we can talk. In the meantime, as has already been pointed out, the "price" any woman pays who dares come forward and report her ACTUAL rape is so high (tho one regular here wants to minimize it) that few women do it. The shame and humiliation of enduring the assault in the first place aren't bad enough; the victims get raped all over again by the legal system which is supposed to protect and support her but in practice routinely protects her rapist at her expense. All that has to change. And that, Madame Blogster, is a legal matter.

    "There's something wrong with a legal system -- and a culture -- that facilitates and enables sexual violence against women while actively protecting perpetrators. There's something wrong with a society that believes all other victims of crimes EXCEPT women who've been sexually assaulted." Well said Marilese! It perplexes me that some people still fail to recognize the continuity between culture, law and those punished under the law. Your strong voice is refreshing!

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#33)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 08:59:55 PM EST
    Yes you are right. They should have been arrested by now. And not only are these guys protected because of their gender, but also because of their race. They had two days before the warrant was executed. It reeks.

    If the woman's fingernails were still in the bathroom two days later, I doubt those boys did much in the way of "clean up." The police seized four lap tops, two cell phones and three digital cameras from 610 N. Buchanan. If something happened at that party, most likely, there will be evidence of it on those items. Any photos taken would be on those cameras or already downloaded onto the lap tops. Contents of e-mails sent and received (even if they have been deleted) will be retrivable from those computers. If the cell phones are camera phones, they too, may be a source of evidence. If the rape and assault happened, I doubt the perps will get away with it.

    "Fake fingernails can come off pretty easy" Unless she was using the kind of fake fingernails that come in a pink packet with glitter and sticker decals - no they do not come off that easily! Most likely they were acrylic nails which are basicall cemented onto your fingernail like - well, cement and would be excruciatingly painful if they were suddenly ripped or torn off. I once had my nails done when I was younger for a wedding and tried to take them off after they had started to grow out, the fake nails literally took off all but a paper thin layer of natural nail underneath. It was really painful and it was hard for me to hold or grasp anything for weeks. Anyone who thinks fake nails come off easily should get there nails done, try yanking them off and then try to write about how "easily" fake nails come off.

    Marilese wrote: Overwhelmingly, people (mostly men) are more than willing to disbelieve and discredit and place the blame or responsibility on these two black women. The alleged rapists get the presumption of innocence while a presumption of wrongdoing lands automatically on the victims' shoulders. My impression is that public sentiment among men, women, blacks, and whites is overwhelmingly against the manner in which the lacrosse students lawyered up and banded together to form a thick blue line. It compares to the sort of outrage felt when people took the fifth before HUAC in the 50s. That is why the story has gone national. The race and misogeny discussion is a second order discussion. The first order discussion is the way defense lawyers do business. One lawyer was quoted as saying the students who are remaining silent are "doing their job." If you want to find the moral epicenter of the Duke lacrosse story, you need look no further than that quote. Kitty Genovese was raped and killed in front of something like 22 witnesses, none of whom came forward. Were they doing their jobs? I don't know whether the allegations are true or false... What I do know is that the people who we rightfully presume to have a duty to assist in determining that are resisting that duty. To the extent that corrupt defense attorneys are complicit in that resistance, they earn our disrespect.

    I can't seem to find it now, but I read that an escort service owner said they send out White dancers unless the clients asked for a Black dancer. I wonder if the lacrosse team asked for a Black dancer and if so, why? Here's some fodder for one theory: Not your video ho

    This case with very few facts available sure has generated a lot of impassioned comments that border on hysteria. Some of the comments are reminiscent of the mass hysteria which brought us the pre-school/day care scandals of yesteryear.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 09:27:03 AM EST
    IMHO - I was thinking the same thing. I cannot help but think that they wanted two black dancers so they could treat them like crap but that does not lead to rape as far as I know. Where is Patrick on this, I am curious.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#40)
    by Slado on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 10:01:53 AM EST
    While in college I attended two parties with strippers put on by my fraternity. So unfortantely I can picture this situation and what might have happened. First of all the women always brought a bodyguard or another dancer because they were dealing with a group. I wonder if we're getting the whole story from either side in terms of what was said to get her back in there. Second, some form of sex was available for an extra charge. Women that do home stipping are usually also providing other services for a fee. Is their any evidence that the sex might have at first been an agreement and it got rough or that maybe they tried to stiff her? Someone commented that more then likely this involved a minority of individuals. All 45 or whoever was there probably participated in the "strip show" but a minority either attempted or received a bonus party or services and that's when things went bad. Either way this is a bad situation and until all the facts are known we shouldn't pass judgement on either party.

    Having been in a frat and on sports teams and been in attendance at a pile of bachelor parties over the years, I was going to say exactly what Slado just said in his points 1 & 2. The strippers always had bodyguards and the difference between stripping and hooking at these parties was only a matter of $. In addition I would suggest that bachelor parties with strippers always involve plenty of alcohol and that unless you were actively involved in a specific activity/ocurrance your awareness/knowledge of what happened in that activity/ocurrance is likely close to nil. iow, the other 40 probably have little specific knowledge of what these 3 guys were doing or not doing. For example, in discussing my brother's upcoming B-party with him last week, he described some events that occurred at my B-party over 10 years ago that I was, a decade later, completely unaware of.

    Some of you disgusting men could turn a staunch conservative into a raging feminist. Which, by the way, would be a good thing! Just ask if you can buy a clue.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#43)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 10:41:39 AM EST
    Overwhelmingly, people (mostly men) are more than willing to disbelieve and discredit and place the blame or responsibility on these two black women.
    Conversely, overwhelmingly people tend to believe that a woman would never lie about rape despite several recent cases where video documentation proved otherwise. Which of course is the reason why falsely accusing someone of rape is so bloody horrible, it not only ruins the life of the accused but puts a significant strain on real victims. If the argument is that rape is a crime about power, than it seems the argument should be the same about false allegations. Again, I wish this would be argued in court and not in the court of public opinion.

    All the people talking about how "sure, they probably got two black women so they could treat them like crap, but that doesn't lead to rape so far as I know" and whining that there's no enough facts or evidence in the case... Are you all just completely disregarding the medical report? Why? Because it puts the lie to what you're claiming about the lack of evidence? It's been released that there was evidence of sexual assault that lined up with the victim's story. The typical argument to that is "okay so maybe she had consensual sex and used it to get revenge", but it doesn't hold up well when you consider the timeline of the events. She didn't have TIME to consensual sex in order to stage a rape. The fact that not ONLY does the medical evidence back her story, but so do the witnesses' reports of overheard racial slurs, and the evidence of a struggle in the bathroom also lines up with her claim. If there truly wasn't any release of information, I could understand all the cries of "but there's no proof!" But there IS considerable evidence, and it points in favor of the victim. You'd have to be willfully blind and have an agenda not to see this.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 11:45:53 AM EST
    According to Dr. Michael Baden bruising is not exclusive to sexual assault and can be a result of multiple partners in a consensual setting. Need I say more? Or does Baden have another agenda? I speculate on why 46 white guys wanted to black dancers, I do not think I have or will get any push back from any of the white males on this site for that question. Strippers as a rule put up with a lot of sh*t, let alone 2 black ones at an all white party. So, if you are an MD and wish to take Dr. Baden to task, by all means do so. But unless you were in that room SOIRA, you know as much or as little as me.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#46)
    by Slado on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 11:51:36 AM EST
    Soira, you raise good points but in the end you can't pre-judge the defendents unless you happen to be the victim and know for a fact you were raped. This women was a prostitue/stripper who may or may not have been involved in other nafarious activites in the same night. She did not immediately flee the scene to a police station. She was found in a grocery store after said incident occured. It is only her word against the 3 defendents until the DNA evidence comes in. Once that is in then we'll get a better idea of what we're dealing with. But if I was a defense lawyer I'd make the above point, bring in her past, bring up the fact tht the defendents tried to submit to a lie detector, bring up the fact that her stuff was still in the house (meaning they didn't think they'd done anything wrong) etc... Lots of facts line up against the victim if the DNA evidence doesn't tie the defendents to the crime. Since i graduated for Law&Order las school will a real lawyer comment on what we're looking at? All feeling aside.

    What on earth does her past have anything to do with? Neither her job as a prostitute/stripper are relevant. Nor is her past. The ONLY thing that is relevant are the facts of what happened during that night. NOTHING else.

    Jlvngstn posted
    IMHO - I was thinking the same thing. I cannot help but think that they wanted two black dancers so they could treat them like crap but that does not lead to rape as far as I know.
    I wasn't thinking that, but it is quite possible. The "Hey, b____, thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt" declaration the neighbor claims to have heard is an indication that at least one person at the party treated her like crap. It doesn't show premeditation, though. sarcastic unnamed one posted
    iow, the other 40 probably have little specific knowledge of what these 3 guys were doing or not doing.
    The police would be grateful for even less than "specific knowledge." How about, "I saw ______, _______, and ______ enter the bathroon with her?" How about, "I got to the house at 2:00 pm, ________, _________, _________, ______ , and _____ were already there. The dancers came around 11:00 pm, they danced for 20 minutes and left, I never saw anyone enter the bathroom with her?" Other than the three captains that gave statements before anyone lawyered-up, the DA is saying no one else is talking. Why not? What is wrong with coming forward and saying, "This is what I saw." Even if they saw nothing incriminating they should come forward to say just that. Think how different this would be treated in the press if they had all come forward and given statements to the police and given their DNA VOLUNTARILY - if they had their attorneys refrain from characterizing the women's stories as sounding fishy. BTW - in some media accounts the second dancer is reported as being white.

    The second woman can't be white, she made the 911 call saying she's black and was freaked out by the racial slurs.

    The second caller says that she was with her black girlfriend she doesn't say that she herself is black.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 12:29:39 PM EST
    IMHO - Any person at that party who does not seek counsel immediately is suffering from a real lack of common sense. Rape charges, especially when one side is arguing it was consensual can be more than a bit damaging, and the tendency is to believe the alleged victim almost on every occasion. Whether or not you have "nothing to hide" is irrelevant, if you were ACCUSED of wrongdoing you have a constitutional right to have an attorney represent you as well as the constitutional right to only speak to the attorney. Should we get rid of that right? If I were at that party, I would have "lawyered up" immediately, like every politician does when they are accused of wrongdoing. I have read about way too many cases of late where the incident was videotaped and the rape charge was proven completely false for me to want any part of a false allegation in any way shape or form. It always amazes me when people make reference to "lawyering up" about the regular guy, but not a damned soul complains about every politician who gets in trouble immediately hiring the "best lawyers".

    Talk Left posted
    The second woman can't be white, she made the 911 call saying she's black and was freaked out by the racial slurs.
    Do we know it was the second dancer that made the 911 call? According to the DA, the 911 caller has not been identified.

    There should be a lot of commenters ashamed of themselves after this debacle of a post. Not only is the information that has been released scant and questionable, thus far you only have a "he-said-she-said" scenario (until DNA results are returned). Remember: nothing has been proven, so these gents are innocent. As much as many of you would like to slam college athletes from a prestigious institution like Duke, you're just going to have to be patient. So long as we're playing the game of who's more trustworthy, I'm going to throw my hat to the college students ring and not the strippers/whores. Call it experience.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 12:38:23 PM EST
    Chase, and if the DNA comes back and the men say that the 3 of them agreed to pay for sex, what then?

    I say cross that bridge when it occurs. But to play your game: bust the "hookers" hard, bust the pimping escort agency to make an example of them, cite the students as Johns and move on. What makes you think this will be the case? Gut feeling? Did I overlook a statement or something?

    and the tendency is to believe the alleged victim almost on every occasion.
    Yeah. That's why 5/6ths of rapes are never reported, and that's why only 16 percent of rapists are convicted. That's the most idiotic statement I've heard on this thread yet. Women are NOT believed most of the time. They're not even believed HALF of the time! Either they're accused of lying outright, or they're told that they're making a big deal out of nothing, or they're told that it was their own fault. Gods above. You only have to look at the statistics on rape to realize how utterly untrue it is to claim that rape victims are usually believed. There's a reason why almost all rapes go unreported, and that's directly because of the fact our culture embraces rape and condemns victims.

    IMHO - Any person at that party who does not seek counsel immediately is suffering from a real lack of common sense.
    I think we can establish anyone that stayed at that party once the women were threatened with a broom (assuming that part of the story is true) is suffering from a real lack of common sense. I'm not talking about taking away anyone's constitutional rights. I'm not saying they don't have a right to a lawyer. I'm saying everyone involved should give a statement to the police, even if they had sex with the woman. I'm talking about doing the right thing as opposed to covering one's ass.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 12:59:51 PM EST
    5/6 rapes are not reported NOT because the women feel the guy is going to get off, but that they will have to relive the experience and have to face the person again. Let's not twist facts to muscle a point. so if 16% of rapes result in conviction either a. Lots of women are lying about rape or b. it is incredibly hard to prove. Based on the amount of disgust I have seen on this site for anyone who dare say maybe the men are innocent, I would argue that your point is not only incorrect but an attempt to intimidate. Castigating someone for their belief in innocent until proven guilty deomonstrates a real values problem and a highly judgemental person. Where is the judgement for the women who were escorts and strippers? Again, morality playing itself out toward ones political leanings is dangerous. I find it hard to believe that 84% of rape cases that do not result in conviction that 99.9% of them are guilty. So which is it? I know that every time there is a high profile case especially when it is not date rape, there is almost always a conviction. I also find that EVER questioning a woman's allegation relative to rape designates one as "rape friendly" or a moralist blaming the woman. I have no idea if she was raped because I was not there. I do know that several cases of collegiate athletes have been proven false by videotapes and that is enough evidence for me to raise a red flag here.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#60)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:07:28 PM EST
    Actually it is 45% of reported rapes that result in convictions, 44% for burglary. I have no idea where you get the 16% from other than the amount of reported rapes. it would seem that with dna, the conviction rate should have increased dramatically over the past few years if 99.9% of the rape allegations are correct. Yet there has been no such gain in convictions, why not? And dna is not just found in semen so the condom argument only goes so far...

    I have news for you. A lot of women choose not to report rape for the simple reason that they know they won't be believed, either because the guy in question is hugely popular or because they know that people are going to think that the woman's sexual history means she can't have been raped. It is not solely about fear of reliving the rape and it's sometimes not about reliving the rape at all. A woman's fear of being maligned by the community while the man receives an outpouring of support is one of the top reasons why the vast majority of rapes go unreported. You're trying to pretend that the stigma of rape is always on the shoulders of the accused, but that is simply a dishonest refusal to accept reality. If rape victims were easily and nearly always believed, a crapload more than 1/6th of all rapes would be reported, because women would not be afraid of being labeled as lying sluts. I noticed that you neglected to consider the third possibility of why only 16% of rapists are convicted. You said it was either/or--either a lot of women are lying, or else rape is hard to prove. Here's a third one for you: Men are rarely convicted because most of society doesn't think rape is a real crime or else think that women who get raped deserve to get raped and constantly come up with excuses as to why men aren't to blame. Our culture is HUGELY biased against rape victims. But you didn't even consider that as a possibility. You went straight to an either/or scenario that completely excluded men as capable of wrongdoing. It was either "women are liars" or "hard to prove". Well, buddy, if a lot of women are capable of lying about rape, why aren't a lot of men capable about lying about it?

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:14:53 PM EST
    Of course men are capable of lying about it, I believe I concede that earlier. As to why women do not report it, there are a myriad of reasons. You have convicted these young men already which of course is horsepucky and you have no credibility. I know 3 women who were raped, 2 did not report it one did. All 3 were date raped. I know another who accused someone of date rape and was completely lying. For those who were date raped and not beaten or left bruised and bloodied I can see them feeling like they will not be believed. None of the statistics you cite prove that any of those women were raped. Based on the media coverage on this story, your analogy that they will not be believed is horsepucky.

    If chew2's timeline is accurate, I am now of the opinion that the two girls were most likely flat-out hooking. Not that that makes it OK for any sort of physical abuse, like if the "deal" went south...

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#64)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:20:17 PM EST
    Lastly, you are living in an alternate world to suggest that society thinks "women deserve it". If women deserved it so to speak, the press would NEVER cover the story. After all, why would they ruin a young mans life if the woman deserved it anyway? These arguments were valid 40 years ago, they are inaccurate and insulting. Your premise suggests that no woman could lie about rape, your premise is not only wrong it hurts your campaign. When a woman lies about a rape and is proven as such, that does more damage to the movement than any other single factor. Want to further the cause? Allow for the criminal justice to determine guilt or innocence and stop blindly supporting anyone that cries rape. There are two sides to every story and this one stinks.

    Jlvngstn posted
    According to Dr. Michael Baden bruising is not exclusive to sexual assault and can be a result of multiple partners in a consensual setting. Need I say more? Or does Baden have another agenda?
    I speculate on why 46 white guys wanted to black dancers, I do not think I have or will get any push back from any of the white males on this site for that question. Strippers as a rule put up with a lot of sh*t, let alone 2 black ones at an all white party.
    So, if you are an MD and wish to take Dr. Baden to task, by all means do so. But unless you were in that room SOIRA, you know as much or as little as me.
    Funny you should ask if Dr. Baden might have another agenda. I'm not an MD, but I can tell when one is lying. In my ever so humble opinion, Dr. Baden did lie about evidence in an on going case. He consulted with the Greenwich police on the Martha Moxley murder and was given access to the autopsy report. He later claimed during an interview, where he appeared with members of her convicted killer's defense team, that the autopsy showed "there was evidence from fluorescence of semen." The trial transcript clearly states there was not. I couldn't figure out why Dr. Baden would lie. I then found out that his "significant other," Linda Kenny, is an attorney on Michael Skakel's defense team. proof of lies

    You're absolutely right I think the men are guilty. Witnesses corroborate the victims' stories about racial epithets. Medical reports corroborate the claim about rape. Police evidence corroborates the claim that there was a struggle in the bathroom. Either these women are telling the truth, or else they went to an awful lot of effort to stage revenge. And if this is, as has been postulated, revenge for the racial slurs, my Gods, but these women must've been psychic enough to know beforehand, in order to so quickly concoct and pull off a revenge scheme. The evidence backs up the victims' claims, and in the face of that, I see no reason at all to wail that there's not enough evidence and certainly not to make the absurd suggestions to explain what else this evidence could mean beside what the victims say it means.

    Also, your allegation that you know at least one person who made a false report. How, exactly, do you know beyond any reasonable doubt that she fabricated the whole thing? Even if it's true, and I doubt it is, it's an ancedotal example of a singular event and does not stand as evidence that a lot of women lie about rape. Oh, and I'm sick of listening to you talk about how rape allegations ruin men's lives. They don't. But to focus on what you said, in a case where a victim is perceived as having brought it on herself, the man's life is hardly ruined by the media. If anything, he's celebrated as a downtrodden hero of the common man. You keep talking about cases of videotaped evidence proving that rape was not committed, but I've heard of only one such case, and one case does not translate into hundreds or even just dozens. Got any sources to back this up? And I'd like cites of cases where it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that a woman lied about rape. Videotapes don't always show the whole story. We don't see what happens before or after the videotape, to start.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#68)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:12:51 PM EST
    First - The woman who made it up confessed to making it up. Second, some women lie about rape, period. Third, research this site, I have posted 2 cases where it was videotaped and there are others. Lastly, I am grateful you are a poster on this site and not a juror, because your bias is frightening. IMHO - thanks for the info on Baden, i had not seen that before. Lastly Soira, I do not begrudge you for your ardent beliefs, I think you are impulsive and wrong and more worrisome irresponsible. The greatest thing about our legal system is that we are innocent until proven guilty. If that is too much for you to swallow, write your congressperson to change that law. Until then, I will agree to disagree.

    You're absolutely right I think the men are guilty.
    And with one fell swoop, one of the most biased commenters of the day pronounces judgment, completely disregarding the ongoing investigation and that pesky judicial process. Pah-lease. Soira: What access to evidence do you have that the rest of us don't? Let me guess: you have none. I don't know these guys and I surely don't know the strippers/whores making claims against them. If it becomes apparent there was a crime, then of course they should go down (and given the coverage, I bet they will). It's a little premature, however, to start measuring them for prison jumpsuits right now. What's most disgusting is the campus reaction to this whole imbroglio: someone was quoted saying this alleged incident reflects the "culture of rape at Duke." Culture of rape? Give me a break. A converse hypothetical: what if it become obvious that no rape, or no sexual assault took place and the allegations were just a stripper/whore's attempt to "drop a case" in the laps of these guys?

    Soira, you're done here. You're a chatterer and I stated above this is not a place to proclaim guilt or repeat your views of rape in general or statistics about rape. Please visit another blog.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#71)
    by Peaches on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:22:05 PM EST
    Between 12:45 AND 1 A.M.: Bissey sees a car, which at least one of the women had been in earlier, speed away. One man standing across from the house, on the Duke campus, shouts, "... Thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt."
    This is not enough evidence for me to include beyond a reasonable doubt that a rape occurred, but it is enough to form an impression that at least one of these guys was an freaking a$$hole and put me in the camp wih the viewpoint that these are "spoiled fratboys" with the capability of cmmitting more than a little prank and who were just having a little fun--even if they alleged victims were hookers. And I know I like to bust his balls in the past, but Chase wrote in the case of prostitution:
    But to play your game: bust the "hookers" hard, bust the pimping escort agency to make an example of them, cite the students as Johns and move on.
    Nice equal appropriation of justice here. "cite" the Johns and "bust" the hookers hard. Any wonder women don't trust mens intuition here on whether or not a rape occurred?

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:25:02 PM EST
    Chase-Nice to see you are right up to date with the wingnut echochamber spew:
    ...On his national syndicated radio program, Rush Limbaugh referred to the alleged victim of a rape by members of the Duke University lacrosse team as a "ho[]."
    Funny how you reveal your comtempt for the alleged victim while calling for others to suspend their bias. link via think progress

    First - The woman who made it up confessed to making it up.
    That alone is not proof that she was lying, for the simple reason that rape victims often are pressured or outright threatened to revoke their claim. Also, the question put to me about asking what evidence I have access to. I have repeatedly pointed out the evidence that we ALL can see, about the medical report, witnesses, and the struggle. All three of which back up the women's claims. Why is this being ignored? But I see that I'm done here, according to Jeralyn, although I have to say that I'm still waiting for her to answer several points: She has not addressed the point made that this "innocent until proven guilty" bit is utter junk in the case of rape trials, simply because in EVERY other case, we treat the accused as innocent until proven guilty WITHOUT condemning the accuser in the process. However, in cases of rape, and in this case also, the accusers are being maligned as liars by the people screaming "innocent till proven!" It's a fair question to ask why accusers of rape face societal condemnation that accusers of murder and theft do not. For that matter, your ridiculous claim that fingernails are easy to remove has been challenged, as well as the claim that rape is an easy charge to make, thankfully. I understand that as a defense lawyer it is your job to degrade plaintiff arguments, but you should be able to do this by relying on a sound foundation of facts, not easily disproved statements.

    Peaches: My assignment of punishments for that specific hypothetical was done that way on purpose. If you read back, the hypothetical dealt with a situation where a rape did not occur and it become apparent that it was prostitution. I would punish the women much more severely for falsely alleging a rape with malice aforethought. I would take down the escort agency with extreme prejudice for facilitating the abuse and subjugation of women. Even though I'm personally a civil libertarian and would be reluctant to even punish the men (or the women, absent the rape claim) the law is the law and they have to be punish too. If the hypothetical posed were to come true, they lax players would be the most innocent. Does that explain my position?

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#54)
    by chew2 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:37:41 PM EST
    Here's the most complete timeline I could find from the Raleigh News and Observer: [Links must be in html format. You may quote short paragraphs from news sources but not reprint them in full.]

    Jlvngstn wrote: "IMHO - Any person at that party who does not seek counsel immediately is suffering from a real lack of common sense. Rape charges, especially when one side is arguing it was consensual can be more than a bit damaging, and the tendency is to believe the alleged victim almost on every occasion. Whether or not you have 'nothing to hide' is irrelevant, if you were ACCUSED of wrongdoing you have a constitutional right to have an attorney represent you as well as the constitutional right to only speak to the attorney. Should we get rid of that right?" Everytime you exercise your right to remain silent, you have given up your right to free speech. Everytime you exercise your right to free speech you have given up your right to remain silent. I would prefer, when I exercise my rights, that I exercise them in the service of justice. I'm not seeing that ethic being exercised here by the lacrosse players, whether or not they are guilty of anything at all.

    The three who lived in the house went in and were interviewed the night of the search warrant, without lawyers. Everyone who is a suspect in a crime should exercise their right to reamin silent. The jails are filled with people who thought the police would see it their way if they told their side of the story. There's a reason Miranda rights include the phrase, "Any you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

    Everyone who is a witness to a crime should exercise their duty to report that crime.
    PB, are you absolutely sure there are witnesses to what you label a "crime" other than the three?

    ...although I will admit we're in a grey area here, and this sounds a little like TL's meme of "Nobody talks, everybody walks" crusade...

    Talk Left posted
    The three who lived in the house went in and were interviewed the night of the search warrant, without lawyers.
    Was that on the advice of their attorneys? (insert rofl emoticon here) That was the night of the search while they were still hoping this mess could be taken care of without their parents finding out that they hired exotic dancers. Are those three young men still cooperating with the police?

    Talkleft wrote: The three who lived in the house went in and were interviewed the night of the search warrant, without lawyers. Yes, I think all agree that that goes on the credit side of their balance sheet. You wrote: Everyone who is a suspect in a crime should exercise their right to reamin silent. My response: Everyone who is a witness to a crime should exercise their duty to report that crime. When a duty collides with a right, let your conscience, not your lawyer, be your guide. You wrote: There's a reason Miranda rights include the phrase, "Any you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." I ask: Why stop at suspects? Why should anyone report crimes? Don't get involved, you might get hurt. The people who built our rights, like John Lilbourne, weren't soft on principles, or worried about going to jail for being innocent. They stood up for the rights of others, despite the risk to themselves. I'm not seeing that here.

    Sarcastic Unnamed one, you wrote: PB, are you absolutely sure there are witnesses to what you label a "crime" other than the three? No. I don't even know that "the three" witnessed a crime. It may be that the police were the only ones who actually witnessed the crime (the filing of a false report.) The way for society to properly ascertain what happened is for the material witnesses to the relevant events to come forward. They can exercise their right not to do that and go on and lead happy lives pleased that they didn't wind up in jail, if that's what common sense and some attorney tells them is best for them. But they don't have to live in a soul-less culture. They can do the right thing instead.

    Alleged Victim's Father Speaks
    The man described what his daughter looked like when she was released from a hospital. "Her face was all swollen up, her jaw. She couldn't half walk. One of her legs was hurt," he said.
    from the same article
    "There is no doubt in my mind, because I've seen the look in her face. I've seen the bruises on her face," the alleged victim's father said.
    I doubt she looked like that before the party.

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#83)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:39:36 PM EST
    PB, the exonerated list is full of people that went in for questioning only to have their words twisted toward prosecution. My freedom of speech is not intertwined with my 5th amendment right lest we be confused. The last thing in the world I would want is for any confusion on my part relative to time or my interpretation of events to be misconstrued. I am sorry that I used the common sense argument but out of curiousity how much talking did Libby do prior seeking counsel? The whole "someone has got to pay" mentality creates bad convictions and I would rather be advised by counsel than take a chance with a cut and paste of my words. There is a reason why those with adequate counsel fair better in trials than those without good representation. It is funny to me how people are criticizing these kids for lawyering up when every politician repub or demo lawyers up immediately when they are accused. I cannot think of a more un-american thing than not exercising your rights under the constitution. Getting a lawyer is not a sign of guilt, rather it is a sign of maturity and intellect. Most people over 40 have seen or heard of enough wrongful convictions to allow for any margin of error in these circumstances. It is also amusing that our gov't continues to make up laws regarding the detainment of people all over the world, utilizing attorneys that share their convictions. But let an every day person seek counsel and lo and behold they must be guilty. When the government, politicians specifically, lead by example in criminal investigations by not hiring lawyers immediately and cooperating fully with the prosecutor, perhaps I would consider advising others to do the same. Until then, take the forest out of their eyes and leave the sliver in mine.

    Hi Jlvngstn, You wrote: I cannot think of a more un-American thing than not exercising your rights under the constitution. These students have a right to report what they know, yet are not exercising it. Un-American indeed!

    The way for society to properly ascertain what happened is for the material witnesses to the relevant events to come forward.
    PB, well said and you won't get any arguments from me. I assume, though, that if the police wish, they can depose the others? In which case, they'll be compelled to come forward and also have legal representation. Is that not OK?

    Re: Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allega (none / 0) (#86)
    by cpinva on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 09:59:19 PM EST
    interesting threads, both filled with claims of stastistics pro and con, with zero factual support either way. as near as i can tell, and i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, the only facts in evidence in this case, so far, are these: 1. some members of the duke lacrosse team held a party at a home rented by three team members. 2. this party was attended by some, or maybe all, team members, as well as other, non team members. 3. two women, at least one african american, were hired to dance at this party. 4. during the course of the party, one of the women broke some fingernails. it isn't certain how this occured. 5. apparently, racial slurs were shouted at the woman, by the party crowd. 6. some time after leaving the party, one of the women reported having been the victim of rape by 3 of the party attendees, in one of the bathrooms in the house. 7. a medical exam indicated genital bruising, of a type consistent with both forced and consensual intercourse. 8. to my knowledge, no dna evidence was recovered during the medical exam. by itself, this means nothing either way. 9. 46 of the 47 team members have voluntarily provided dna samples. those comparitive results, if any, are some time away. 10. no one has actually been charged with any crime. i'm sure i left something out. bottome line: we know as much now as we did when this was initially reported, which is............not much. we know that a rape allegation has been made, period. there's a far stretch twixt allegation and conviction. this has only just barely gotten out of the blocks. i've no clue if this woman was raped or not. i hope not. neither, it appears, do the durham police, the idiot da's comments notwithstanding. that said, it does seem odd that anyone with something to hide, would, as willingly as these guys have, allow their home to be searched without warrant, and voluntarily give dna samples. they are either all innocent, or unbelievably stupid.

    There was a search warrant: search warrant The three players that voluntarily gave statements before they had attorneys also voluntarily gave DNA samples. The rest of the team gave their DNA samples under court order.

    What I find atrocious is the Duke student body seems to have already convicted the lax team. They seem to have thrown out the entire US judicial system and decided these guys are guilty. That alone seems quite un-American to me. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Right now, it's a case of she-said-he-said. What I find extremely interesting is the 911 call at 1am. Where a woman claims to have been called a racial slur, and then gives the exact address of where the alleged rape occured. Now, from my understanding the address of the house isn't even visable from the street. Yet she knew it and said it three times on the 911 call. No, boys and girls, something doesn't smell right about this claim. Here's my supposition of how the events of that evening unfolded: I think it got racial, and the dancers got upset and left. The students felt they got ripped off, tried to get their money back. In doing so, perhaps it got a little rough, and some fingernails were lost. The dancers were pissed about the racist slur. Good nails are also expensive. Called 911 about a racial slur. Didn't wait around for the cops. Still pissed cause she got roughed up, she left the money, and her stuff... Now, if she doesn't claim rape she has got to pay the escourt service outa her own pocket. Again, all this is just supposition on my part. But I think ya gotta look at that 911 call, reporting the racist slur, suspiciously. How did this woman know the exact address of the house if the address isn't visable from the street?

    Hi Sarcastic One: You wrote: "I assume, though, that if the police wish, they can depose the others? In which case, they'll be compelled to come forward and also have legal representation. Is that not OK?" I think it's okay that they be compelled to come forward, and okay that they have a lawyer when they do. This is true whether they have "okay" character or not.

    According to the search warrant: The numbers 610 are black and are on the front door of the residence. photo of 610 N. Buchanan I don't know how large the numbers are, but it doesn't look like there is anything obstructing a view of the front door.

    Spyderman, You wrote: What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? ...after which you surmised that the accuser was filing a false report to get back at the lacrosse players. What's wrong with that picture? Well, at least you have drawn attention to the problem. We can't assume everyone is innocent. The first 911 call may not be related at all to the second. But the timing is consistent with when the neighbor saw the car the dancers came in depart. Within the next two minutes, police found few traces of the party at the house. The woman who made that first 911 call, if she is the so-called second dancer, will be a very important material witness. While she was probably not a witness to what went on in the bathroom, she may be able to confirm important details of other people's stories, and explain why she directed police to the house in the manner she did. Numerous non-fishy models come to mind. If you listen closely there does appear to be a whimpering woman in the background of that first 9-11 call, consistent with the state of the women later heard whimpering in the second 9-11 call. Rape victims often complain that the justice system rapes them a second time. It's part of the defense attorney playbook to do that, but it is inconsistent with the values of the left. That's why I think this case in particular points up the incongruities that are built into the entire concept of this website.

    Comments are just about at 100, time to close them. There will be an updated thread when more news breaks on the case. Thanks to all for your thoughts.

    [quote=Inmyhumbleopinion]I don't know how large the numbers are, but it doesn't look like there is anything obstructing a view of the front door.[/quote] Actually, there is something obstructing the address on the front door. There's a shuttered screen door in front of it, which appears to have a knocker. I certainly don't know what happened that night, but there is something highly suspicious about the first 911 call.

    Hey PB, I'm just pointing out there could be motive for a false claim. She may have gotten roughed up and was forced to give them a refund. If she was selling extras, she couldn't exactly call the police and tell them she got stiffed. She was in a bind. She would have to pay the escort service out of her own pocket. Now, what happens when the DNA comes back and it doesn't match anyone on the lacrosse team? Say there is semen but it comes from her boyfriend or another "John?" I think there has been a rush to judgement by the student body and the community. Don't get me wrong, if a rape occured then I hope everyone involved is held accountable.