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Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail Revealed

Update: Ryan McFadyen, the lacrosse player who lived in the dorm who wrote the email described below has been suspended from Duke.

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Original post

The coach of the Duke lacrosse team has resigned. The Dean cancelled the team games for the rest of the season. This is on the heels of new developments in the lacrosse players' alleged rape case. The Court unsealed and Smoking Gun has published the search warrant affidavit and search warrant return for the dorm room and vehicle that was searched by police on March 27.

Less than an hour after a woman said she was raped at a Duke University lacrosse party, authorities say one of the team's players sent an e-mail message in which he talked about hiring strippers and killing them.

A lawyer representing one of the team's members said the e-mail, while in bad taste, does not show that a crime happened at the house, and in fact could help show what team members have said -- that no assault happened.

Another defense attorney agrees:

Joe Cheshire, a lawyer representing one of the team captains, said the e-mail helps support the team's story. Team members told police, according to Cheshire, that they hired women to dance and those women left the party early.

"This e-mail, while the wording of it is, at best, unfortunate, if you read this e-mail and you also are aware of other e-mails that exist contemporaneous with these events, it's quite clear that no rape happened in that house," Cheshire said. "These boys were frustrated because they, as is already been reported, they thought these women had come and taken a bunch of money and started dancing and just decided to leave."

...."If you see this case with things the police have not released, you see this case in a different light than the prosecutor going out there and saying, 'they're guilty,'" Cheshire said. "Is it a horrible e-mail? Yes. Does it make the writer look good as a human being? Are there all kinds of moral and social issues that can be discussed about what went on that night? This e-mail does not in any way shape or form show that there was a violent sexual act that went on in that house. I would tell you that it in fact shows the opposite."

The affidavit contains the text of the e-mail which was written by lacrosse team player and sophomore Ryan McFadyen, who lived in the dorm room. He is player 41.

The affidavit states the players used phony names to shield their identities at the party and that it was player Dan Flannery, a team captain who lived at the house, who called the escort service and used an alias. The accuser says that of the three men who raped her was named "Adam" but other players kept calling him "Dan." Flannery, as well as the other two house residents, went in the night of the search warrant, voluntarily, without a lawyer, and gave statements.

I wrote here that in the search warrant for the house where the party occurred, the woman named the three players who attacked her but I could find no record of of a player with one of the names on this year's team. That name was "Adam." But if this site is correct, there is an Adam.

Some random thoughts from a defense perspective (which unfortunately has to be based on media accounts, googling and two search warrant affidavits rather than the actual police reports, transcripts of interviews, and results of investigation.)

Notice that the first affidavit names "Bret." That's an unusual spelling of the name. Clearly, that's the cop's spelling and not the accuser's, because there is a "Bret" on the team. So apparently, not all of them used fake names. Unless one of those she is accusing lied and said he was Bret when he wasn't. In which case, Bret is eliminated as a suspect.

There's also some timeline confirmation. The accuser arrived at the house at 11:30. The other dancer was already inside. They began to dance. After a few minutes, they felt threatened by the racial and sexual comments, left and got in a car outside. They both were coaxed to go back in and they did, but got separated.
Here's where the criminal accusations begin. The accuser says Matt and Adam pulled her in the bathroom. "Someone" closed the door and then Matt, Adam and Bret said she couldn't leave and raped her for 30 minutes. She also says they physically assaulted her by strangling her and it was during this physical assault that she clawed at her attacker to be able to breathe and her nails came off.

The first 911 call came at 12:53 am, from the other dancer who said at first she was driving by the house, then in the same call, said she was walking by the house with her black girlfirend. I say it was the other dancer because,

Police said they don't know who made the 911 call to report the racial slurs, and the complainant was gone when police arrived at the house. But Durham police spokeswoman Kammie Michael said Thursday that they are convinced the call was not made by the same woman who later said she was raped and sodomized by three men at the party.

[The text accompanying the audio of the tape also says it's not the accuser.] On the other hand, police did say that the other dancer made the second call, having picked up the accuser on the same street as the party house and taken her to Krogers.

The second call came at 1:22 am. The accuser told police the rape happened between midnight and 12:55 am. The police arrived at 12:55 in response to the first call but the place seemed deserted and neither woman was present.

One interpretation could be that the nails did not come off during the alleged rape but during a physical assault over the money.

Other details: The accuser said that $400 was missing from her purse. $160 was recovered in the house. The second search warrant seeks permission to search for $340 at the dorm room in $20 bills. (I think they can't add, that's $500.00) Nonetheless, only three $20s were found in the dorm room .

In short, it doesn't look like anything incriminating or confirming a rape was found in the dorm room or the vehicle.

The e-mail mentions Arch and Tack and asks if any besides them want to respond. Is this a reference to?

38 Breck Archer MIDFIELDER 6-0 190 Jr. Sea Cliff, N.Y. (Taft)
3 Chris Tkac DEFENSE 6-0 185 Fr. Gaithersburg, Md. (Landon)

To be continued.

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  • Display: Sort:
    "So the nails did not come off during the alleged rape."
    Hunh? I don't follow. How do you arrive at that conclusion?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#2)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 03:12:47 PM EST
    You say: "So the nails did not come off during the alleged rape." I don't see the basis for making that statement. She was reported to have said she scratched at her attackers while she was being strangled. The officers later found her nails in the bathroom, which they characterized as consistent with her story. It's pretty clear that she was assaulted, including in the vaginal and anal areas, although there may have been no penile penetration. She required hospitalization and there was reportedly swelling and bruising. It seems unlikely she was assaulted in the short time elapsing after she left the "party" and when the police found her at Krogers. So it seems most likely she was assaulted at the party. It's likely that some of the men there wanted a sex show, or sexual services (a blow job or whatever) and its possible as you suggest they felt they hadn't gotten there money's worth and wanted their money back. But it appears that someone there used force to get whatever it was they wanted. The fact that everybody split from the party almost immediately after the dancers left after midnight suggests that there was some guilty knowledge. They had been drinking since at least 9pm and I'd assume some would stick around and keep on drinking long into the night. But they all left. Assuming the other dancer called in the first 911 call, I don't find it unusual that she didn't cry rape then. Maybe they were both in shock, maybe she didn't know that the other girl had been raped or thought she had just been roughed up (they had just met that night), maybe they hadn't decided whether they were going to file a complaint because they didn't think they would believed. Moreover, even in the second 911 call made by the Kroger security guard, the victim didn't cry rape until questioned by the police. She was still apparently in shock.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#3)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 03:18:21 PM EST
    I was wondering this also. I think she means that the nails did not come off around 12:55 because police drove by and noone was at the house. The only thing this demonstrates is that the accuser was not accurate in stating the time of the alleged rape, seems to me.

    That sentence was poorly worded, I've changed it. There could have been a physical assault without a sexual assault -- the players adamantly deny any sexual activity took place. There apparently was an issue about the money. They paid up front and were angry she quit after a few minutes and wanted their money back. That could have resulted in a physical altercation.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#5)
    by Peaches on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 03:32:23 PM EST
    They paid up front and were angry she quit after a few minutes and wanted their money back.
    or they could have wanted their money's worth. And that could have led to both a physical and sexual assault. Hey, I am not ready to say a rape accured. But, I tell you what, I feel no sympathy for some of the guys on this team. At least a few of them deserve to have their names dragged throught the mudd at the very least for being despicable--and I am not talking about just hiring strippers or even prostitutes. I mean their attitudes towards women and poor women in particular - black women. At least a few of these kids acted just like the stereotype of them--privileged college jocks who think they can get away with anything.

    They paid up front and were angry she quit after a few minutes and wanted their money back. That could have resulted in a physical altercation.
    Yes, I believe this to be the most likely scenario as well. An ugly incident no matter how you slice it. And, for those who wish to brand the Duke students as rich a-holes, Ryan McFadyen, the author of the vile email, apparently grew up in Mendham, NJ, and as such would seem to fit that particular suit quite well.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#7)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 03:38:42 PM EST
    "There was apparently an issue about the money." Even if these guys wanted their money back, they weren't privileged to assault her vaginally and anally to get it back. And its possible they assaulted her sexually precisely because they didn't think they'd gotten their money's worth, whether it was sexual services or just titillating naked dancing.

    I'm presenting possbile defense scenarios. I said that at the outset. That's what TalkLeft is all about.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#9)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 03:57:50 PM EST
    "I'm presenting possbile defense scenarios." I hope you don't mind my presenting other theories and interpretations. BTW how much less serious criminal liability would it be if this assault didn't involve any penile penetration, but just some "manhandling" in the vaginal and anal areas.

    The fact that everybody split from the party almost immediately after the dancers left after midnight suggests that there was some guilty knowledge.
    Where did you find that stated as a fact?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#11)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 04:24:10 PM EST
    "Where did you find that stated as a fact?" I recall reading in the Raleigh News and Observer (?) that the neighbor witness said the lacrosse team had all left shortly after the dancers left. Plus you have the police at the empty house at 12:55am. And the dancers may have left around 12:20am if you believe the time line is accurate. Why did they all leave? Another party? or guilt?

    The article you link to says that the police do not know the identity of the first caller to 911. Do you have another source that it was indeed the other dancer?

    Lizzy, I added two links that say the Police say it was not the rape accuser. So it has to be dancer number 1, whose name we know from the second call with the security guard is Kim.

    (sorry I had to disable the links to avoid the comment screening - last time I waited over ten hours for my post to pass screening) The News and Observer April 1, 2006 QUOTE: Between 12:45 AND 1 A.M.: Bissey sees a car, which at least one of the women had been in earlier, speed away. One man standing across from the house, on the Duke campus, shouts, "... Thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt." Several men come out of the house; Bissey hears at least one of them say, "Guys, let's go," repeatedly. Within minutes, there is silence. The lights at 610 Buchanan are dim, and no one is outside. Rita Cosby Live and Direct - Rush to judgment in Duke rape case? (sorry link disabled) QUOTE: And at that point, the young women were coming back out of the house, getting into the car and driving away. And there were a lot of young men running this way, towards Duke's east campus. And that's the point, when the girls were driving off, that I overheard the racial slur. One of the young men yelled, Hey, "expletive," thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt.

    The neighbor is the least reliable source. His timeline doesn't match up, doesn't account for the multiple entries and exits from the house, doesn't account for their separate arrivals and departures, and is off by almost a half hour on the arrivals. His memory now is an amalgram of what he recalls and post-event information from what he read and heard later. It's not a true memory. He had no reason to be out there with a stopwatch or even looking at his own watch. He's guestimating.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#16)
    by Lora on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 06:20:19 PM EST
    The email doesn't prove anything, one way or another. I agree that it doesn't show that a rape occurred; on the other hand it doesn't show that a rape didn't occur. It shows extreme hostility toward strippers, and that's about all it shows. To me, evidence from the hospital trip, the evidence found so far at the dorm, and the fact that the players all left quickly around the same time, is consistent with the story the alleged victim is telling. It seems the main inconsistency so far is in the timing, and frankly, if you've just been raped, you're probably not looking at your watch. I have a problem in calling the alleged rape victim the "accuser" as it implies that she is not a victim. I think this label does real rape victims, and she may well be one, a disservice. The word "alleged" in front of victim or rape should be enough. And, as has been noted by another poster, the vast majority of those who say they have been raped have actually been raped. I am not saying that it happened here, but it seems that there is enough evidence to suspect that a rape may have occurred.

    Talkleft wrote: "the Police say it was not the rape accuser. So it has to be dancer number 1, whose name we know from the second call with the security guard is Kim." Personally I don't share your confidence. Comparing the voice of "Kim" to the voice of the first 9-11 caller does not yield an obvious match.

    Lora, You wrote: "I have a problem in calling the alleged rape victim the "accuser" as it implies that she is not a victim." I disagree that the term "accuser" implies anything about the legitimacy of the accusation or that the term "alleged" represents an improvement of any kind over it.

    Posted by sarcastic unnamed one April 5, 2006 04:38 PM
    And, for those who wish to brand the Duke students as rich a-holes, Ryan McFadyen, the author of the vile email, apparently grew up in Mendham, NJ, and as such would seem to fit that particular suit quite well.
    So, just what are you contending here, suo? That the mere act of growing up in Mendham, NJ is prima facia evidence that one is an a-hole as you put it? 'Splain, Lucy!

    nbc17.com (sorry link disabled - I gotta fly under the post screening radar again. I posted this w/ the links almost two hours ago - my comment must be circling the airport - still not scheduled for landing....) QUOTE: "Her face was all swollen up, her jaw. She couldn't half walk. One of her legs was hurt," he [father of the alleged rape, sodomy, strangulation, robbery victim] said. "There is no doubt in my mind, because I've seen the look in her face. I've seen the bruises on her face," the alleged victim's father said. mercurynews.com (sorry link disabled - I'm apparently on a short leash here) QUOTE: In the MSNBC interview, the father said his daughter's face was bruised and swollen so badly that she could barely open her eyes, she was scratched and her leg was injured so badly she couldn't get out of the car. A fight over money? What would it take for athletic men to get a wad of 20's out of a woman's hands? Possible defense scenario? Heck, just about anything's possible. How about something more probable?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#21)
    by dead dancer on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 06:58:57 PM EST
    Personally I don't share your confidence. Comparing the voice of "Kim" to the voice of the first 9-11 caller does not yield an obvious match. Did you mean 911?

    I don't understand some of the assumptions you all are making - like why does the first call have to come from one of the dancers? Why not just another passerby? And what is the timeline problem? Also, in regard to the neighbor, I could definitely see him not having the times down exactly right as we don't all look to a clock as an event occurs, but he said that he heard the guys shouting at the strippers as their car drove away, and then right after that dispersing. I don't see why it makes his info uncredible just because the times are off a bit. I think what is significant about his info is a)the sequence of events and their relationship in time to each other (the party breaking up right after the strippers leave), and b)the yelling of the racial slurs and insults. It seems like even those who don't seem to believe a rape occured (or are just playing defense attorney) think that it is likely that the strippers were physically assaulted. That is still a serious crime and morally reprehensible for three men to attack a woman. Also I have heard people here (though not on this thread) argue that whatever happened, it happened in a bathroom and the rest of the team didn't know about it. That seems pretty unlikely - if the evenings main attraction is pulled into a bathroom and later goes running out with injuries, you are going to notice, and notice who emerges from the bathroom. I am pretty upset by all of this because up until 8 months ago I lived in that neighborhood, shopped at the Kroger's that call was made from. It is so ironic because there is this constant paranoia of Duke students that the (black) locals are going to come on campus and rape the (white) students. I have never lived anywhere where there is a weirder relationship between university and town.

    Nice post J.B. You wrote:"I don't understand some of the assumptions you all are making - like why does the first call have to come from one of the dancers? Why not just another passerby?" Because that version fits into Talk Left's "fishy story" scenario. It started as a scenario, she then tried to pass it off as fact: "the Police say it was not the rape accuser. So it has to be dancer number 1," It maybe true, but we don't know that yet.

    Lacrosse player suspended from Duke These defense attorneys should be fired immediately. Do the really think they are helping their clients by insulting the intelligence of people following this case?
    Glen Bachman said he did not know why McFadyen was suspended but believed it had to do with the player's safety.
    He said he did not know of any specific disciplinary action the school had taken.
    "I think it was a safety concern for him and the university," Bachman said in an interview.
    Suspension is a specific disciplinary action. I wonder how many students have been suspended for their own safety? I wonder how many students have been suspended w/o being told the reason for the suspension? Did he ask his client why he was suspened? This from Joe Cheshire, a lawyer representing one of the team captains:
    "These boys were frustrated because they, as is already been reported, they thought these women had come and taken a bunch of money and started dancing and just decided to leave."
    Just decided to leave? Yeah, after (according to the search warrant) "one male stated to the women, 'I'm gonna shove this up you,' while holding a broomstick up in the air." How stupid do they think people are?

    IMHO--You are the same chatterer from the Skakel threads. You are limited to four comments a day and you are over limit now. I've told you before that this blog is not a good fit for your views.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 09:17:45 PM EST
    TL, You said: The neighbor is the least reliable source. His timeline doesn't match up, doesn't account for the multiple entries and exits from the house, doesn't account for their separate arrivals and departures, and is off by almost a half hour on the arrivals. I tried the links in your original post but can't find anything that is the basis for that claim. Do you have a link?

    "I have a problem in calling the alleged rape victim the "accuser" as it implies that she is not a victim." Translated to what that really means, they are guilty until proven innocent. That has been a very effective ploy in the media (FOX makes bundles that way) to grind the Bill of Rights down to almost nothing. It is a very ugly sight to imagine some on the far left in bed with Bill O'Reilly. Shudder.

    You have one group of ill individuals interacting with another group of desperate and ill individuals, both believing that they're trading materials for objects (and vice versa). The only thing worse than the situation itself is the morbid sideshow fascination the public has with it -- completely missing the lesson to be learned in the process. Sex and money never mix to any positive ends. If there were less desperation and material programming involved, perhaps it could've been just a group of young kids getting together to have a good time.

    The accuser is not a victim until it has been determined that she suffered a a criminal act while at this house. Until then, she is the one accusing people of the act. She is therefore either an accuser or a complaining witness. It's inherently prejudicial to call someone a victim based upon a contensted accusation of rape. The jury will decide if she's a victim. Should charges be filed, there is another legal term for her. The complaining witness in a rape trial is called the "prosecutrix." Look it up, you'll see I'm right.

    IMHO, You wrote, "This from Joe Cheshire, a lawyer representing one of the team captains: 'These boys were frustrated because they, as is already been reported, they thought these women had come and taken a bunch of money and started dancing and just decided to leave.' Is Cheshire disputing that the "boys" got their money back, or just explaining why they coaxed the "women" back into the house. Talkleft, you wrote to Imho: "I've told you before that this blog is not a good fit for your views." I would add, these relevant passages from Talkleft's commenting policy: "TalkLeft is a personal site ... It is not a neutral site. It is intended to express and disseminate the authors' point of view." This blog is crafted in the model of a "vanity blog," Imho, by which I mean that it is designed to appeal to fans of a very specific subset of editorial opinions and conversations. If you aren't fan of those opinions or conversations (I know I am not), or don't regard the authors as honorable custodians of your point of view, (I know I don't) you will likely find frustration here. There's an architectural reason that science and politics don't mix well. That said, the truth does have its place, and I imagine I speak for everyone reading here when I say that I particularly appreciate your unrelenting efforts to uncover it. Truth for President!

    Posted by TalkLeft:
    IMHO--You are the same chatterer from the Skakel threads. You are limited to four comments a day and you are over limit now. I've told you before that this blog is not a good fit for your views.
    From TalkLeft 's Comment Policy
    A "chatterer," loosely defined as one who both holds opposing views from those expressed by TalkLeft and [emphasis to both and and is TalkLeft's, not mine] Posts numerous times a day with the intent of dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread; Posts numerous times a day and insults or calls other commenters names or repeatedly makes the same point with the effect of annoying other commenters.
    I don't believe I am guilty of any of the above, but does this mean dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread and being insulting and annoying would be allowed if I didn't hold opposing views from those expressed by TalkLeft? Dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread? I posted five times yesterday - I have posted a total of 30 times in two and a half months. Four of my five posts yesterday were in direct response to posts in the thread - three answering other commenters questions and one refuting your comment, the fifth post was my opinion on the tact taken by two of the defense attorneys. Though this statement supports your position that I am a pest:
    I've told you before that this blog is not a good fit for your views.
    Like other facts you have used to support your positions, it is not true. NEVER HAPPENED. I don't know why you bothered writing that tortured comment policy,"You all post at my pleasure," would be a more accurate and honest policy.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#32)
    by killer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:36:42 AM EST
    I recall Talkleft mentioning IMHO at least one other time recently (saying exactly what she says she said). Just in case you forgot, or skipped that comment.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:26:30 AM EST
    IMHO-
    "You all post at my pleasure," would be a more accurate and honest policy.
    Count yourself lucky to have been provided a free soapbox to grind your axe. I am not surprised that TL afforded you this for as long as she did. She has a high tolerance for dissent which is unusual for most blog owners. Most would have never allowed your grandstanding to see the light of day. Isn't is rather obvious that comments at a blog are always at the owners pleasure? Your indignation speaks volumes.

    So, just what are you contending here, suo? That the mere act of growing up in Mendham, NJ is prima facia evidence that one is an a-hole as you put it? 'Splain, Lucy!
    His vile email is evidence of his a-holeness. Growing up in Mendham is evidence that he likely comes from a wealthy family. Hence my comment that he "would seem to fit that particular (rich a-hole) suit quite well." Must I explain everything to you?

    Everybody who grew up in Mendham is wealthy? Have you ever been to Mendham, suo? I grew up about 30 minutes from there. I was through there a few years back. Yeah, it's a pretty wealthy town, now, but not everyone is rich. Not all rich kids are a-holes. Not all poor or middle class kids have exemplary values. You don't explain, sport, you demonstrate. Thanks for doin' such a wonderful job.

    His vile email is evidence of his a-holeness. Growing up in Mendham is evidence that he likely comes from a wealthy family. Hence my comment that he "would seem to fit that particular (rich a-hole) suit quite well."
    Reading is fundamental. Oh, since you seem to feel that ever having been to Mendham is important, yes, I've been there.

    One of the most important mechanisms for binding any company of men together involves shared transgression and mutual guilt. No matter how revolting or destructive the behaviour none of the men involved should ever breathe a word of it to an outsider; the penalty for doing so is the most painful of all, total and permanent exclusion from the group. Germain Greer, the Guardian, 12/17/03

    Suo, you're busted, sport. You're whole premise is, he's from Mendham, he must be guilty. His hometown is the source of his guilt. I've given ya 24 hours to say "allow me to rephrase," but you've seen fit to wallow in your whatever, so suit yourself.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#39)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:41:33 AM EST
    LMAO, is Haley's comet coming around again so soon? So it's clear Charlie, none of what you alleging was ever stated by SUO. It's clear to anyone with a smidgen of reading comprehension. Speaking of wallowing.....

    Thought I would throw in a couple of facts I just heard today on the Abrams Report. He reported that the fake nails were recovered from the bathroom of the home two days after the alleged incident. If the assault/rape took place wouldn't the players have cleaned up against themselves? Also reported that it was the accuser's boyfriend that took her to the hospital. Possible intervening sexual activity? The Durham D.A. has also stopped giving interviews about his case and his DNA is still absent. Is he seeing his case fall apart? Much has been made about the players actions and why would they act this way if they were so innocent. Look at the accusers actions and ask the same thing. She's raped and then goes to a Krogers? 911 caller talks about being offended by racial slurs but no mention of assault or rape or injuries? Father of accuser talks about how roughed up she was but again no medical treatment is sought immediately after the incident? Did the Kroger security guard make mention of these injuries? If I recall the security guard stated the accuser appeared drunk. And I'll throw in one on the player's behavior, they followed the women out of the house to hurl insults at them. Doesn't show much conciousness of guilt. I agree with Cheshire that the email probably helps the defense more than hurts. Easier to spin it showing the player was pissed that the dancers didn't perform for as long as expected. BTW, who was the email sent to? How detailed is the medical exam information? Its been my experience in other cases that doctors tend to take patients statements at face value and also have the tendency to attribute injuries to whatever the patient says caused them. Many times there are just as viable explanations for apparent injuries other than criminal behavior. Where is the idea that no penetration occurred coming from? This is a bit rambling but the story becomes less clear the more information that comes out. Unforunately the team members have already been branded in the public's eye. Even if charges aren't filed or they are acquitted, many will simply see them as having gotten away with it. CDG

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#41)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:48:33 PM EST
    TL, I did not suggest calling the dancer "victim," I said "alleged victim." And there is justification for that: see this from the Kobe Bryant case. Anyway the case isn't in court yet so how about "dancer." After all, the alleged perps are being called "team members," "Lacrosse players," "Matt, Adam, and Bret." And Prozac, no, I do NOT presume guilt. That's why I used the word "alleged." I said she MAY be a victim. Don't twist my words.

    Squeaky, You wrote in response to Imho: [Talkleft] has a high tolerance for dissent which is unusual for most blog owners. I haven't been reading here long but it is my impression that Talkleft doesn't have an "unusually high tolerance for descent." Nor does she pretend to. The only thing I see wrong with having editorial policies that favor those who preach to the choir is that these almost invariably lead to the dumbing down of content, much for the same reasons as fraternity life seems to invariably lead to a dumbing down of values in our current culture. Squeaky, you also wrote: "Count yourself lucky to have been provided a free soapbox to grind your axe." The problem with trying to grind one's axe on a soapbox is the soapbox inevitably is reduced to sawdust.

    Killer. You wrote: I recall Talkleft mentioning IMHO at least one other time recently (saying exactly what she says she said). Just in case you forgot, or skipped that comment. I remember TL saying what she says she sais, but not to Imho. Can't find it though, so I'm inclined to think all three of us, you, me and TL, are mistaken, and that Imho has been unfairly blocked from posting. By the way, I looked through every thread Imho has ever posted in before coming to gthis conclusion. Did you two?

    Hey, if they just wanna jump in the boat, how ya gonna stop 'em? Posted by Patrick April 6, 2006 12:41 PM LMAO, is Haley's comet coming around again so soon? So it's clear Charlie, none of what you alleging was ever stated by SUO. It's clear to anyone with a smidgen of reading comprehension. Speaking of wallowing.....
    Yak away, Mon Ami. And, for those who wish to brand the Duke students as rich a-holes, Ryan McFadyen, the author of the vile email, apparently grew up in Mendham, NJ, and as such would seem to fit that particular suit quite well.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:10:28 PM EST
    That was those investigative skills coming to the fore again.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#46)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:11:49 PM EST
    Still haven't got that whole quote thing down I see.

    Ya know, it's almost too bad that Ryan McFadayen isn't from Mendham, TX instead of Mendham, NJ. If he beats this rap or comes out of it relatively unscathed, in another 20 years or so, he can pretend to find Jesus, give some variation on the "When I was young and foolish, I was young and foolish." song and dance, and grow up to be President of the United States. He's got all the qualities at this stage of the game those folks hold dear. Judgin' by the current occupant, he's definitely Presidential timber. That young man's got a future in republican politics.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail (none / 0) (#48)
    by Patrick on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 09:23:16 AM EST
    Yeah and if he had killed her in a DUI accident he could become a Senator from Mass.

    Nah, he's President, dude. He'd probably have a wife to handle that sorta stuff.