home

Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineup

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 12:11:51 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

WtVD, the local ABC news station in Durham has viewed the transcript of the photo identification made by the rape accuser in the Duke Lacrosse player case.

Eyewitness News was allowed to look at the 15-page document describing the process. The accuser looked at pictures of 46 lacrosse players on April 4 in a police department Powerpoint presentation. She would look at a picture, then see a blank screen before looking at the next image.

She identified Reade Seligmann, 20, with 100-percent certainty as the man who forced her to perform oral sex on him. She also identified Collin Finnerty, 19, as the man who raped and sodomized her.

And how about that bond bonus for Kim Roberts?

Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 - eight days after the party - on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.

On Monday, the same day a grand jury indicted lacrosse players Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, a judge agreed to a change so that Roberts would no longer have to pay a 15 percent fee to a bonding agent. District Attorney Mike Nifong signed a document saying he would not oppose the change.

"It seems she is receiving very favorable financial treatment for what she is now saying," Thomas said.

Sunday's New York Times attempts a timeline in the case. Item of interest: The grand jury meets May 1 and the DA's election is May 2. Any bets there will be another indictment?

One fact I think the NY Times gets wrong:

When she arrived about 11:30 p.m., she was wearing a negligee and shiny white strappy high heels, and met a second dancer, Kim Roberts. They entered the house by the back door.

Kim Roberts had been inside the house for a while before the accuser got there, from accounts I've read. The Times may be referring to when they both re-entered the house after being coaxed back in.

Newsweek:

The accuser is dropped off at about 11:45, about a half hour after the other (second) stripper arrived. By midnight, according to a photo, the two are almost naked on the beige carpet in front of their visibly happy audience. But by 12:03, the mood has turned'

< Duke Lacrosse: The Impropriety of the DA's Comments | Newsweek on Duke Rape Case: Open Thread >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineup | 36 comments (36 topical)
    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:31:29 PM EST
    This is what I was looking for. It seems to me that if Reade was in front of her forcing her to perform oral sex (which by the way is hard for me to understand) and scractching and clawing, that those fingernails would of gotten some kind of DNA. Why didnt she just bite the thing off? I know that is funny, but if you are being raped, then i dont think you can perform someone to do that. I dont think you can force someone to do that? Come on!!! If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...then it is...

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:44:00 PM EST
    SupaMike: You wrote:
    I know that is funny, but if you are being raped, then i dont think you can perform someone to do that. I dont think you can force someone to do that?
    Yes, I think its high time we had a statute that defined all fellatio as consensual. On a historical note, I understand that Teddy Roosevelt considered the concept of "voluntary motherhood" to be "race suicide." Some cultures are just resistant to change.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:48:06 PM EST
    PB said:
    On a historical note, I understand that Teddy Roosevelt considered the concept of "voluntary motherhood" to be "race suicide." Some cultures are just resistant to change.
    I am sorry the more I think about this, the more I think this accuser was decribing some porno movie she has done, or has seen. I am guess this 3rd assailant that she has ID'd is the choker, beater, and kicker. Since the other two were the rapist, sodomizers... Right? Is this thing falling apart for you? It is for me... Where is the DNA?

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:53:11 PM EST
    Also here there are 2 accounts of the timeline. But what I think we can count on is that the accuser probably showed up at around 11:45. Like it was said that the accuser showed up one half hour after the 2nd dancer. This to me means that these women probably spent some time alone before they both went inside the house. I am now seeing the womens plot in all this...Call me bias, but to me I think they agreed to try and get in that house and dance for a short period, and get the money and jet out. The drunk boys were not having it...and that is how the arguements started. To me, the 2nd dancer persona, seems like the one who would bring this up.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#5)
    by Teresa on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:07:30 PM EST
    I wish I could remember his name, but the black attorney who represents one of the captains said on TV that Kim arrived at 11 and the accuser about one half hour later (11:30). It also say this in the search warrant for the boys' dorm room. I think the 12:45 timeline is from when Mr. Bissey saw them enter the house at 12:50. I think that could be the second time the women entered the house, not the first. Mr. Bissey had run an errand or taken a shower or something and wasn't outside when they intially arrived. What the heck did they do for 1 (Kim) and 1/2 (accuser) hours before they started dancing if the 12:00 pictures were from the first dance? I think those pictures are from after they were coaxed back in. How do you explain the arrival times otherwise?

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:18:41 PM EST
    To me the arrival times are not that crucial because we know that no rape occured before the midnight hour. But you are right, that the midnight pictures could be after thy were coaxed back in. If that is true, then that would be one thing that we can match up with the accusers story. That gives her a few points for me. But still we have to find a 15-30 minute rape in the time from 12:05 to 12:45. Keep in mind that the ladies had to leave again after the 3-4 minute dance, so is this a 2nd time they leave? So the time that she could have been raped is when she went back to get her shoe, but that does not fit her story, because she said both of them were coaxed back to the house and were separated, and she was forced in the bathroom...

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#7)
    by Teresa on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:39:06 PM EST
    supamike, how do we know they left again at 12:04? The picture only shows them walking to the back of the house. I think they only left once and it COULD have been before 12:50 when Bissey saw them entering for what would be the second time. I wish we could see pictures from their arrival time before the 12:00 dance so we could see the accusers behavior. Maybe the DA has pictures from the cameras he got in the first search warrant that show a more complete time frame. I think IF she was raped it was after 12:04 and before the 12:30 pictures of her leaving.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:44:04 PM EST
    Bissey has said in his account that he saw them all coming out from 12:20 to 12:30. Bissey's account is crucial becuz he did say he saw them coming out after the midnight hour, right? I have to agree with you that if a rape occured it had to happen from 12:04 to 12:30...we can all agree this is the opportunity for that to happen. I am gonna go back and check Bissey's account again.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:54:05 PM EST
    Exclusive: Battle Lines Are Drawn Over Duke Rape Charge

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:54:24 PM EST
    Supamike, et.al. I think that the idea of being forced to participate in oral sex is based more on the idea of fear and control. Psychological factors that are hard to quantify but are nonetheless very real to victims of abuse. Unfortunately, like almost any law that relates to sexual activity between people in this country, there's far too much opportunity for people to abuse these claims. The fact that so many people use sex and failed relationships to materially enrich themselves is a by-product of the mindless Corporatist materialism that grips our country. It is disgusting the things we do to one another for money and ego in this country. We reward people seeking revenge with money (and sometimes, blood). It is even more tragic that actual cases of rape and abuse (physical or psychological) are sometimes harder to spot because of the bogus cases - both criminal and civil. We can't succumb to viewing "clean-living" people as credible while assuming that people some people label as "Morally Bankrupt" are inherently un-credible. We're never going to know for sure what happened and the accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty. "Out-call Exotic Dancer" is usually a false-label for prostitution. The problem that presents itself when weighing abuse of a prostitute against activity willingly performed by a prostitute shows us the wisdom behind prostitution's illegality. Sans the materialism, people can still be fickle.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:03:06 PM EST
    If the judge allows the photo lineup identification, the defense will tear it apart. The police/DA really screwed up by only showing her photos of lacrosse players. The 2nd dancer has imploded this case by contacting a publicist seeking advice on how to "spin this to her advantage." Evidence that she changed her story in order to benefit. She also received a major financial break from the DA/Judge when she was arrested for embezzling a week after the incident. They let her slide on $3800 bond in exchange for her testimony. She may be able to testify about the accuser's condition when she arrived, but her credibility is now completely shot. If the judge doesn't surpress the identification, then I'd expect to see a motion to dismiss as the next filing by the defense and it might just be granted. This DA really blew it big time!

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:29:22 PM EST
    Hi SupaMike, You wrote:
    Bissey has said in his account that he saw them all coming out from 12:20 to 12:30.
    A better account from Bissey says this...
    "I went inside to take a shower. And when I came out, this entire alley was full of men kind of yelling, and I overheard a lot of talk about getting money back and the money they'd spent or whatever. And the young women were back in the car in front, and one of the young men was leaning into the driver's side door, speaking with her. But at that point, the situation seemed to calm down a little bit, and they were able, I guess, to convince one of the girls to go back inside.
    And that's at the point where I overheard her talking about going back and getting her shoe. So the young ladies went back into the house, and at that point, nobody was out in the alley. The situation seemed pretty calm.
    Comment: I don't think he did actually see them come out.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 06:25:15 PM EST
    BUt he did also give a time with which he saw all of this. And what time was this?

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 06:58:49 PM EST
    What a strange coincidence there was no photo taken between 12:10 a.m. and 12:30 a.m. If a rape occured by the accused players this is the time frame it occured. Strangely no photo taken. Another interesting point according to accuser's statement the guy who left the party at 12:19 was the first in the rape who forced her to give oral sex which fits to the story if raped occured at this time frame assuming that he didnt wait for the other guys taking their turns. I think defence trying to create a fog about the timeline to win public opinion. It looks like it is working.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 07:15:32 PM EST
    SupaMike:
    BUt he did also give a time with which he saw all of this. And what time was this?
    I have no first-hand claim from Bissey on the time. All I have are the estimates assigned to Bissey's statements by whoever put together the time-line for the News and Observer. They were using Bissey's police report, I believe, which I haven't seen. WCNC has Bissey himself estimating the time between the two women entering the house and time of the sequence in the alley as 15 - 20 minutes. That would be the time when he took his shower. The 27 minute gap between photos is clearly where our lens needs focusing. The story from the accuser is quite different from the story of the defense attorneys, and it appears the second dancer, who could well have put the nails in the coffin of the accuser's story, does not have a significant problem with it. Clearly the two dancers did not spend 27 minutes in the bathroom changing and doing their nails. Who coaxed the dancers back into the house and when did that happen? The lawyers' haven't blessed this part of the accuser's story yet, because it's something they want the prosecution to have to prove. They have, however, admitted that the accuser returned to the house for her purse, during which time she may have been alone for as long as 10 minutes. Alone? Where, in a house with 41 lacrosse players would she find a quiet place to be alone? The bathroom?

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 07:46:43 PM EST
    There is a confusion again because of the fog defense created. I think second stripper never went inside after 3 minutes performing ended with an argument at 7:03. In her interview she says she could have drive away but she didnt want to leave her there which implies that she waited in the car after she left the house till the alleged victim came out. Just look at the photo descriptions taken after 7:03. The second stripper is on none of them because probably she was waiting for her friend in the car.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:01:51 PM EST
    Actually I saw the interview with Bissey on TV, and he was vry clear about his times, and they were taken straight from him. I think it suits people who are trying to fit a rape into this timeline, to discount Bissey's account. He will be a key witness in this case. And his times are very important, and he actually has evidenc to show how good his times were. You cant build a timeline without his account included...YOu just can write it off, because it does suit all your speculations. Bissey's account and Seligmann's time reciepts blow a big hole in theat 12:10 to 12:30 opening, and people dont want to deal with that.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#18)
    by Teresa on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:15:23 PM EST
    12:20 TO 12:30 a.m.: Tuesday, March 14, Bissey hears voices in the alley beside the house. At least two men are discussing money, one saying, "It's only $100." Bissey sees a man leaning into the window of a car parked outside the house. One of the women he saw earlier gets out of the car and says she needs to get her shoe. She walks to the back door of the house.
    This is from the News & Observer if this helps your conversation. I don't have a clue how to link on this site but you can find the entire timeline from Bissey on their website. It's the April 1 dated article.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#19)
    by Teresa on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:19:12 PM EST
    Supamike, I'm not saying I believe this accuser but their was plenty of time from 12:04 until 12:20 for this to occur. If Seligmann's cell phone records pan out I'd say he's off the hook. I can't imagine why he made 3 calls 2 minutes apart and then called a taxi while there were strippers in the house though.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:36:04 PM EST
    Supamike, I'm not saying I believe this accuser but their was plenty of time from 12:04 until 12:20 for this to occur. If Seligmann's cell phone records pan out I'd say he's off the hook. I can't imagine why he made 3 calls 2 minutes apart and then called a taxi while there were strippers in the house though.
    I would even give it to 12:25pm, but the woman never re-entered the house after 12:30. She was locked out. Okay if we want to break it down from 12:05 to 12:25 it is still 20 minutes. But the problem I have with this is that Seligmann, who the accuser said that she pointed out with 100% certainty, had to make the phone call for a taxi at 12:14. The cabbie has that in his log. Also they have photos in the house all the way up to 12:10. Now these photos may not be of the women, but they are pics inside the house. Now you say that Selgimann is cleared, but how do we clear Seligmann without clearing everyone? If its not Seligmann then why is that we need to clear everyone else? He is not a part of any rape at 12:14, right? So how is it that him and Finnerty are in the bathroom raping this woman, she said this right? This is the accusers account, right? Now if we want to say that the rape occured after 12:14 then we have to agree that it could not of went on past 2 or 3 minutes because he was gone by 12:19.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:39:03 PM EST
    Supamike, I'm not saying I believe this accuser but their was plenty of time from 12:04 until 12:20 for this to occur. If Seligmann's cell phone records pan out I'd say he's off the hook. I can't imagine why he made 3 calls 2 minutes apart and then called a taxi while there were strippers in the house though.
    Why not? Maybe he was not interested, which actually proves why he left so soon. If the strippers where there and he was not fascinated with that, he was ready to get up and go. And that is what he did. In fact, the 2 or 3 calls from his cellphone proves that he was not to fascinated with the strippers...

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#22)
    by Teresa on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:55:30 PM EST
    supamike, the photo's stop at 12:03. If we assume Seligmann wasn't involved we have 24 minutes potentially. Even if he was involved it doesn't take more than a couple of minutes for his part (the oral sex). If he is okay because of the alibi that doesn't mean the other guy plus the third 90% identified guy is off the hook. Granted, it hurts her identification credibility. The DA needs one of the other boys on his side to prove this or the new DNA better be positive. I'm pretty sure a rape didn't happen there but if it did I can't believe that someone hasn't talked. Also, we don't know for sure she didn't go back into the house. I thought the defense said originally that those 7 minutes were when it would have had to happen and that that wasn't enough time. Remember they kept saying the only time she was alone (without Kim) was during that time? I don't think that 7 minutes matter but I wonder why she layed on the steps that long before someone helped her to the car?

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#23)
    by Teresa on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 11:14:21 PM EST
    DNA not expected before May 15 per Herald-Sun. This must be some super duper testing they're doing.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 11:42:19 PM EST
    I know that there are those who think that whatever comes out of the defense in this case is a lie, and what the DA says is pure truth. But for the sake of it, the defense has said that the team requested white strippers for their party.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#25)
    by lewke on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 11:50:28 PM EST
    "the photo's stop at 12:03" I forget which timeline I was looking at, but it said something like "There were no photos taken between 12:10 and 12:30" That last photo mentioned with the strippers was at 12:03 (almost 12:04). So there are photos between 12:03 and 12:10, apparently just not ones involving the strippers. That gap with party photos but no stripper photos doesn't really help either side unless they contain one of the accused..

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:03:55 AM EST
    I forget which timeline I was looking at, but it said something like "There were no photos taken between 12:10 and 12:30" That last photo mentioned with the strippers was at 12:03 (almost 12:04). So there are photos between 12:03 and 12:10, apparently just not ones involving the strippers. That gap with party photos but no stripper photos doesn't really help either side unless they contain one of the accused..
    That is correct, and that is what I read also. That there are party photos up to 12:10. But maybe those photos are being held by th defense, because they are important to the case.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 01:33:33 AM EST
    SupaMike, You wrote:
    I know that there are those who think that whatever comes out of the defense in this case is a lie, and what the DA says is pure truth.
    Yiddish Proverb, quoted at Duke's Center for Academic Integrity-
    "A half truth is a whole lie"
    I think several of the defense attorneys have done the players a tremendous disservice through the publication of half-truths. How much of the soup do you have to drink to know its poison? We have heard from the defense that the accuser had "a major grin". We have heard from the defense that accuser was substantially impaired before she got to the party. We have heard from the defense that one of the two suspects wasn't even at the party. Do these statements serve the defendants' interests? What reasoning person does not immediately think "consciousness of guilt" when faced with transparent used-car salesman-style manipulations such as these? When lawyers show little concern for the appearance of forthrightness (never mind being forthright), I always interpret that as a hint that they do not believe in their clients. And that somewhere in their subconscious minds they are hoping, for the good of society, to find a way to lose their case. Seligman's phone records, if genuine, show that somebody used his phone to make some calls. It is claimed, not ascertained, that the records are genuine and that it was Seligman who used the phone. Spyderman wrote:
    If the judge doesn't surpress the identification, then I'd expect to see a motion to dismiss as the next filing by the defense and it might just be granted.
    You just don't understand what a Judge's job is. Crudely put, the jury referees the facts, the Judge referees the law. If a motion to dismiss is filed, a Judge will not take into account factual assertions by the defense before making a decision. He will view the case in the light favorable to the prosecution. The accusations in combination wit the medical report already pass the threshhold necessary to force a trial on the merits.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#28)
    by Scrutinizer on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 05:19:45 AM EST
    Hi, PB-- You wrote
    The accusations in combination wit the medical report already pass the threshhold necessary to force a trial on the merits.
    Accusations plus a medical test do not necessarily force a trial, if there is enough evidence to show that either the accusations are wrong, or that the cw was mistaken in the identification of the suspect. If the defense can show at a preliminary hearing that one or both defendants were positively not at the party, for example, the judge can refuse to let the case go to trial. You seem to believe that slleged crime vicitms have the right to a trial, but in real life that's just not generally true. You also wrote
    When lawyers show little concern for the appearance of forthrightness (never mind being forthright), I always interpret that as a hint that they do not believe in their clients. And that somewhere in their subconscious minds they are hoping, for the good of society, to find a way to lose their case.
    I've known a number of defense attorneys, and most of them don't want to know whether their client is guilty---such knowledge would limit their ability to put on an effective defense. If a defense attorney knows that the client is guilty, often s/he is pretty much limited to negotiating a plea. The idea that defense attorneys lose cases because they secretly wish to see their clients go to jail is a Hollywood fantasy. As for the public statements of the defense so far, what else are they supposed to do? Nifong has been trying his side of the case in public. Among other things, he has determined the suspect guilt before trial, which is not his function, he has issued statements that are clearly prejudicial to the defense, and he has conducted identification procedures that are clearly not in keeping with accepted standards. I'm not going to call Nifong a liar, or say that he's just a venal politician---I think he's sitting on a case that he really believes in, but he has a lot of problems clearing up, because the team members aren't falling all over themselves to give each other up, and that the complaining witness may or may not be able to give a good ID. I think he has made some bad tactical decisions, at least in how he managed the public appearance of his case. In making the statements he's made, he's created an atmosphere which has forced a response from the defense. If the defense team allows the prosecutor to make unchallenged assertions about the guilt of the defendants, the character of the defendants, and the conclusive power of certain pieces of evidence, then they would allow potential jurors to be unfairly tainted by the prosecution's statements. At the same time, they don't need or want to try their entire case in public, so they aren't going to give the prosecutor a look at it before trial. I haven't agreed with some of your positions on these threads, but I strongly agree with you that we don't know all the facts yet, and what we're looking at (on both sides) is an attempt to paint the prosecution and defense in the best possible light. I don't have a problem with that, although it gets out of hand in cases which the media decide are "newsworthy". It's silly to be arguing the merits of what has been released (on either side), because we don't have enough information to make a determination of guilt in this case, and we won't until there is a trial, if there is one. I appreciate the way you've been knocking down assertions that the "evidence" released by the defense "proves" that the team members weren't guilty. I think all it proves is that there are issues in doubt that should be settled at trial.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:33:29 AM EST
    Hi Scrutinizer, You wrote:
    The idea that defense attorneys lose cases because they secretly wish to see their clients go to jail is a Hollywood fantasy.
    I don't know where Hollywood comes into it. I got it from thinking about the Skakel case. It's not the only case by any means that fits this model, it's just one I know a lot about.. Being a defense attorney is a challenge to ones conscience. Defense attorneys routinely make arguments that they only choose to believe in, on the only-so-sacred grounds that everybody deserves a defense. The positions they take can and often do set the foundation for murderers (the people who most clearly disagree with the principle "everybody deserves a good defense") being set free, sometimes to kill again. If defense attorneys don't feel pangs of conscience about that, I guess I would respect them less not more. If they don't secretly believe that its a good thing when they lose cases where their clients are actually guilty, again, I respect them less, not more. As far as this idea of conscience "leaking out" in the form of dishonest half-truths, it's the most generous explanation I can give for the practice of promoting half-truths. It's entirely unprofessional, after all, turns off the very people these lawyers are hoping to influence, and sets up the conditions for an "own goal." The idea that it is also "unconscionable" has occurred to me, but I have more faith in people than that. So I view it as a symptom of conscience. You wrote:
    You seem to believe that slleged crime victims have the right to a trial, but in real life that's just not generally true.
    No. I believe true victims have a right to a trial, and that the significant threshold that victims, true or alleged, must meet to get to court is not demonstrating whether their account is credible, but only whether it is possible. It's a jurors job to assess the credibility, employing that hazily defined "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:15:25 AM EST
    We have heard from the defense that the accuser had "a major grin". We have heard from the defense that accuser was substantially impaired before she got to the party. We have heard from the defense that one of the two suspects wasn't even at the party. Do these statements serve the defendants' interests? What reasoning person does not immediately think "consciousness of guilt" when faced with transparent used-car salesman-style manipulations such as these?
    None of these things have yet to be proven to be a lie from the defense. How would they be doing the players any dis service, if they are trying to show their innocence?
    Do these statements serve the defendants' interests?
    Probably...why wouldnt they?

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:37:28 AM EST
    SupaMike, You wrote
    None of these things have yet to be proven to be a lie from the defense. How would they be doing the players any dis service, if they are trying to show their innocence?
    They're half-truths, not lies. The "major grin" it should be no surprise, it turns out is less than "major." The claim that the dancer was impaired before the party is disputed by Bissey and the second dancer, and is supported by ... a photograph taken in the middle of the party. Ouch! And the defense that one of the players wasn't at the party is disputed by eyewitness testimony of the second dancer and supported by... uh. Well, that's why I call it a half-truth. It needs a little more support. As for Thomas's claims that the second dancer is only in it for the money, well, she's rubber and he's glue. The pot does itself no favors by calling the kettle black. It just reminds us all how the pot is the blackest cookware in the whole wide kitchen.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#33)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:12:55 AM EST
    The date rape drug scenario seems to be gaining some steam: Newsweek May 1, 2006 p. 3
    According to Roberts, who was interviewed last week by NEWSWEEK, the boys gave each of them mixed drinks. Roberts says she did not drink hers, but the other dancer did, knocking her cup over after finishing half her drink, then imbibing Roberts's. Roberts said that she thought the other woman arrived sober. But when the two began their strip show around midnight, the other woman began having trouble. "She started stumbling," recalled Roberts. "When I think back on it, she had a glassy look in her eyes." Roberts says she "gave her a look that said, 'C'mon, girl, what's going on?' "--but got no response.
    News and Observer Friday April 21, 2006:
    Jason Bissey, who lives next door to the university-owned house, said Thursday that he had a clear view of the accuser's arrival and that she did not appear to be impaired. He said he saw her walk up a long alley to the rear of the lacrosse house, then talk to the other woman hired to dance before entering the home.
    "They were both totally lucid. [The accuser] was not impaired in any way, I remember clearly," Bissey said Thursday. "It was a kind of a long way to walk so it would have been pretty clear if she was messed up."
    If she arrived wearing the white high heels in the photographs, that long walk would be quite a feat if she was "messed up." From the accuser's cousin, Jackie:
    "Before she went to the party she was not intoxicated, she was not drinking," Jackie said. "There's a great possibility that when she went to the party, she was given a drink and it was drugged."
    Rita Cosby's interview with Kim Roberts:
    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was talkative and friendly and smiling, and definitely--we talked for several minutes, you know, normal conversation. We were getting to know each other. She was fine. She was absolutely fine.
    COSBY: Did she seem that she had been on drugs or drinking?
    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not at all. She did not seem like that at all. COSBY: Are you surprised that they're saying that, Look, maybe she arrived, you know, banged up and bruised? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I mean, like I said, I just didn't notice anything. There was nothing overtly banged up or bruised about her, or I would have noticed it.
    COSBY: How much of a contrast was her behavior from when she arrived to when she left? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was very different. She was different from the person that I met in the beginning of the night. COSBY: A 180? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. At least.
    Involuntary Intoxication? Newsweek April 18, 2006
    "What does it mean that she was intoxicated?" said Nifong. "Just as an example--speaking hypothetically--if I had a witness who saw her right before this and she was not intoxicated, and then I had a witness who said that she was given a drink at the party and after taking a few sips of that drink acted in a particular way, that could be evidence of something other than intoxication, or at least other than voluntary intoxication," Nifong told NEWSWEEK. "There are many explanations for someone appearing to be intoxicated," he said. Asked if he had any evidence suggesting this scenario took place the night of the alleged rape, Nifong responded, "I don't have any evidence that I want to talk to you about right now." Still speaking hypothetically, he went on to say that depending on the circumstances, an alleged victim's intoxication might make her a more credible witness.
    It's too bad the police didn't get the party clean up trash bags off the curb. A couple of cups with lipstick on their rims might of yielded some useful evidence.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:49:11 AM EST
    The date rape drug scenario seems to be gaining some steam:
    Actually the article said, that the DA said early on in this case that the date rape scenario would prove to be true, just like he said the DNA would finger the right guys...the DA had no idea then, and still has no idea now. This is not gaining steam at all, its old news recycled by Newsweek.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 11:50:30 AM EST
    TalkLeft is one of my favorite blogs, I read it daily, but I can't for the life of me understand why you're unabashedly cheering for the accused rapists in the Duke LaCrosse case, hungrily skewering the prosecution with razor-sharp skepticism while giving broad gentle-minded leeway to the defense. Fact is, we just don't know what happened, either way, so prematurely throwing your weight behind one side -- perhaps in hopes of eventually being proven right so that you can then engage in chest-beating claims of prescience, or perhaps simply out of class allegiance -- just strikes me as lame. Personally, I'm not about to take sides in this unfortunate melodrama, but I will say this: There's a profound asymmetry in the societal power equation between the Duke athletes and the alleged victim. As such, I have more sympathy for members of a historically oppressed community prematurely taking the accuser's side than I do for members of a historically privileged community prematurely taking the defendants' side; when looking for misconduct on the part of either oppressor and oppressed, I know where the smart money falls.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:16:56 PM EST
    Hi Nice Guy, You wrote:
    "Apparently the "second stripper charged with embezzling $25,000" changed her story etc."
    Changing one's story and changing one's mind aren't exactly equivalent. Ms. Roberts has said that she changed her mind... and we can psychobiographize wht all we like. But do you have any examples of how she has actually changed her story? The court isn't going to care to hear her opinions, after all. Only her observations.

    Re: Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineu (none / 0) (#37)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 03:46:59 PM EST
    In police lineups, is the method the suspect?

    Transcript Details of Duke Accuser Photo Lineup | 36 comments (36 topical)