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LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld


Bump and Update: the LA Times tells Bush to dump Cheney and Rumsfeld . As to Cheney:

Unlike most vice presidents, Cheney does not aspire to be president, and he is the consummate Bush loyalist. He would not be giving up a political birthright by agreeing to retire (citing health reasons or a concern about the publicity surrounding the trial of his former chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby). And the problem of taking sides in the 2008 election is easily solved. Bush could nominate as Cheney's successor an elder party statesman -- Bob Dole, anyone? -- with no interest in the 2008 nomination.

As to Rumsfeld:

The secretary should go not because he has been criticized by a group of retired generals but because he embodies the smugness and inability to acknowledge error that has characterized both the Iraq war and the wider war on terrorism. Rumsfeld has been the pinched public face of an administration that has cut legal and humanitarian corners in dealing with people -- including U.S. citizens -- suspected of involvement with terrorists.

I'm torn between thinking it's better for Democrats in 2006 and 2008 if Bush keeps Cheney and Rumsfeld--and hoping they go for the good of the country. Your thoughts?

******
Original Post: Republicans to Bush: Dump Cheney, Elevate Condi

The Timesonline (U.K.) reports Republicans are asking Bush to dump Dick Cheney and replace him with Condoleeza Rice:

REPUBLICANS are urging President George W Bush to dump Dick Cheney as vice-president and replace him with Condoleezza Rice if he is serious about presenting a new face to the jaded American public.

They believe that only the sacrifice of one or more of the big beasts of the jungle, such as Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, will convince voters that Bush understands the need for a fresh start.

The Times quotes Weekly Standard's Fred Barnes, a Bush sympathizer, as saying Cheney might go voluntarily:

Fred Barnes... said: "There are going to have to be sweeping personnel changes if people are going to take a second look at the Bush presidency."

Barnes, who is close to the White House, said he believed Cheney would be willing to stand down in order to help Bush. "It's unlike Bush to dump somebody whom he likes and respects," he cautioned. "But the president needs to do something shocking and dramatic such as putting in Condoleezza Rice."

The recent photo of Cheney napping might allow people to believe he's stepping down for medical reasons.

Hogwash. If Cheney steps down, I think it's for one reason -- he's expecting a knock on the door any time from Patrick Fitzgerald.

More from Barnes:

"If the Democrats win either the House of Representatives or the Senate it will be death and torment. It will be horrible for Bush," said Barnes. A Democrat win could lead to moves to impeach Bush for leading the country to war on allegedly false pretences, or at the very least, to bog down the president's legislative programme until he leaves office in 2008.

The article has quotes from other Republicans and party strategists, some of whom favor dropping Cheney and others who think dropping Rumsfeld would be sufficient.

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    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#1)
    by Johnny on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 09:30:59 PM EST
    What? Fire the brains behind the operation? Might as well cut the coke-heads left nutty off.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 09:45:00 PM EST
    Hogwash. If Cheney steps down, I think it's for one reason -- he's expecting a knock on the door any time from Patrick Fitzgerald.
    First Rove steps down and gets indicted and then Cheney steps down and gets indicted. What's the grand finale? It would be ironic if Fitzpatrick could wind up doing what Congress can't. Justice would be served.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#3)
    by Al on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 10:14:40 PM EST
    I wonder. Rice has presidential ambitions of her own. I wouldn't be surprised if she left this sinking boat before Cheney.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#4)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 11:08:58 PM EST
    The Times quotes Weekly Standard's Fred Barnes, a Bush sympathizer, as saying Cheney might go voluntarily: Fred Barnes also speculated that Cheney would be lifted out of the White House by a joint effort consisting of a team of winged pigs and a jet of monkeys flying out of his behind.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#5)
    by Rational on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 11:47:05 PM EST
    This is amazing. Cheney is an elected official. He is not an appointee. Could you imagine the hearings on replacing him? Espiacially since it is so transparently for political reasons. Rice would have to be sworn in and the D's could go to town on questions about Iraq, 9/11 and other scandals. Won't happen.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:33:31 AM EST
    rational, The 25th Amendment provides for replacing the vice-president: Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#7)
    by TomStewart on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 01:04:51 AM EST
    Remember Agnew.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 01:41:47 AM EST
    I think I was commenting on this subject a few days ago. It was in connection with the presidential pardon post. Let me see if I can go find it.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#9)
    by roxtar on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:23:06 AM EST
    The notion of moving Condi out of the State Department ties in nicely with the recent WaPo story on Rummy's plans to infiltrate certain State Department functions with military Special Forces. Here's a link to a DailyKos diary on the subject. Scary, but not surprising.....

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:44:03 AM EST
    "First Rove steps down and gets indicted and then Cheney steps down and gets indicted. What's the grand finale?" What a state the country's in, Whitehouse bulls**t wearing thin. So we must, In pardons trust. One for you and one for him.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:45:59 AM EST
    rational is right. They've lost track of the differences between our system and theirs. The vice president was elected (or not) just as much as the president was. If presidents could replace VPs at will, we'd be wide open to all kinds of electoral conspiracies -- presidents could win elections by offering centrist or popular VP running mates, and then replace them -- by prior arrangement -- with ideologues. Boy, is that ever a precedent to warm the cockles of Rove's heart.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#12)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:52:13 AM EST
    cosgrove, edger is right. We are open to all sorts of electoral conspiracies.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#13)
    by Kevin Hayden on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 05:03:37 AM EST
    I agree, IF Cheney steps down. I seriously doubt he'd appoint Condi, though, as she's stated she has no presidential aspirations and her decisions have been suspect to many, too. Look for another Cabinet Secretary or a governor (he can't afford anyone from Congress unless they're clearly in a GOP region so their replacement would stay GOP.) Maybe he'll choose a General to give him more military cred?

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 05:57:40 AM EST
    One word: 2006 Cheney better step down before the elections (or before January 2007). A new VP will need to be confirmed and that would be so much easier w/ a rethug House and Senate.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#15)
    by marty on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:58:46 AM EST
    Is there one solitary reason that this woman should be considered by anyone other than a Bush sycophant a Presidential candidate? She was, by even the accounts of some who were in the NSC, a failure - unable to manage the infighting between Powell and Cheney/Rumsfeld; she was in charge of the Iraqi Stabilization Group, another failure. Her only skill seems to be her "close" relationship with her "husband" and her apparent ability to dumb things down enough so Shrub can grasp them. Why does anyone think she would be a good (or God forbid, a "great" President, according to one survey of Republicans) President? She's one more in the cartoon character candidates Repubs seem to favor (Ahhhnold, Giuiliani, etc,)

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:01:09 AM EST
    Can someone tell me who those Repubs are that are urging Bush to get rid of Cheney? Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Or do we have the ususal RINO suspects? Names? Anyone? None?

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:08:39 AM EST
    Opps.... I failed to include "elected" Repubs in the above. Reporters, staff nembers and strategy people don't count. It should also be remembered that Cheney has been remarkably loyal to Bush. Why would Bush bring in someone who has "that lean and hungry look?" Besides, I think Bush knows that you can't satisfy the mob by throwing people overboard. All you do is put them in a feeding frenzy..

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#18)
    by Rich on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:23:50 AM EST
    This could be the "October Surprise", orchestrated by Rove, who is the" main brain". Another scenario--Lieberman replaces Rumsfeld. This is a longstanding rumor and it would be smart politics---the Dems get rid of a troublesome member and the White House gets a candidate that will be easily confirmed, who enables them to blame a Democrat for the ineviatble problems on the ground.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#19)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:35:26 AM EST
    Replacing Cheney may give him a chance to catch up on his naps. Strangely enough I agree with PPJ on this. The GOP has so strongly tied its fortunes with Bush that you could argue that the GOP is Bush. If you like Bush and his decisions vote Republican. If you don't, vote for the Dems. From my perspective the GOP Congress has long abandoned its responsibility towards being a check and balance on the executive branch. PPJ may disagree with this but on one point I think we do agree. It is too late for GOP Senators and Reps to disentangle their fortunes from Bush, Delay, Ney, and Abramoff. They've made their beds, now lie in it.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#20)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:37:18 AM EST
    Oops, my bad. Sorry about the format problems on the last post.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#21)
    by lilybart on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:53:40 AM EST
    But he won't really be GONE. He will stay in some "advisory" spot so he can run the neocon ops.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:31:44 AM EST
    Why don't Republicans urge all 3 to step down. It makes no sense to have the Haliburton leader stepdown. Cheney made 8 million in 2005 and had a tax refund of 1.9 million because he overpaid.Cheney likely provides a big tax relief to all republicans.Don't look now Haliburton Company is in your neighborhood. I think someone is pulling everyones chain.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:40:49 AM EST
    Can someone tell me who those Repubs are that are urging Bush to get rid of Cheney? From the article:
    Tom Edmonds, a leading Republican consultant, said the White House had failed to grasp that the party was in desperate straits. "I have never talked to so many disenchanted Republicans," he said. "The president even stonewalled the minor changes he made by talking about how he was really perfectly happy with his team. He didn't even give himself wiggle room."
    From Mr. Edmonds' company website:
    Tom Edmonds is a former president of the American Association of Political Consultants and a veteran Capitol Hill strategist. As CEO of Edmonds Hackney and Associates, Inc., he has developed and executed media campaigns for Republican candidates at all levels of government, and implemented independent expenditure campaigns for major conservative political organizations. Most recently, Edmonds helped coordinate and produce the media for the National Rifle Association during the 2000 campaign cycle, an effort that was recognized as decisive in the defeat of Al Gore by a number of publications, including Fortune, Newsweek, and USA Today.
    Sounds like one of those peacenik anti-war America-hating leftist types, PPJ. You can rest easily, he's just another RINO.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:48:38 AM EST
    Neocons have most surely, Run the gov. extremely poorly. Better fun, If they did run. A p*ss up in a brewery.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:50:11 AM EST
    Nixon nominated Ford as vice-president after Agnew resigned. In effect, Nixon appointed his own successor...

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:52:13 AM EST
    Does it really matter? I view the current admin. like a multi-headed monster...chop off a head a new one grows back, same as the last one.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:57:23 AM EST
    Reptiles regenerate lost limbs.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:02:30 AM EST
    Tricky Dicky to Gerald said, Be VP it's serious bread. Just one favour, Might need a saviour. No problem lets go ahead.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#29)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:23:53 AM EST
    I don't see why Bush is replacing anybody or talking about replacing anybody given the peace and prosperity that has characterized his administration in the last 6 years. The Bush administration has been such a paradign of competence and honesty. Given that they have never made any mistakes, why replace a winning team? (warning - sarcasm alert)

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:30:17 AM EST
    Good one, John! As Charlie might say if he were here today: "George - we're proud of you - you're ridin' the crest of a slump, boy!"

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#31)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:40:14 AM EST
    20%, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Cheneyprise. Its eight-year mission: to explore strange new doctrines, to seek out new crimes and new oil fields, to boldly go where no Cons have gone before.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:42:00 AM EST
    President number forty three, Part the job foreign policy. Condi give me a lesson, So I'm not guessin. Just where all these countries be.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:44:14 AM EST
    Scar, I was going to ask you if it's really a good idea to let Cheney off the planet and into space, but then I thought better of it. ;-)

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:52:34 AM EST
    Might come as a big surprise, Don't need no starship Enterpise. As in the past, One quick blast. That coke sure do widen your eyes.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#35)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:20:24 AM EST
    The speculation on the elevation of Condi Rice is utter crap. Has there ever been anyone as searingly incompetent as Condi Rice, as elevated far beyond her abilities, other than George himself? (Okay, I'll give you Rumsfeld.) Her "Peter Principle" level is being a high school principal. I think Bush keeps her around because neither threatens the other with an overload of ability. When she lies, which is whenever she is talking about anything other than the weather, her voice shakes and her eyes dart around and she looks guilty as hell. She can barely handle the podium she has, insulated as she is from hard questions. A confirmation hearing would toast her.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:24:03 AM EST
    A confirmation hearing would toast her. With a republican dominated house and senate? Could happen... as long as he does it before November...

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:37:40 AM EST
    Repack Rider-
    Has there ever been anyone as searingly incompetent as Condi Rice,
    If you are basing her 'competence' on how she performs for the ordinary american person on the street, you are right. But that is not her job. She is a shill for the Admin. and is quite competent at that. She may be transparent, but she is no fool nor is she dumb. Her problem, for us, is that she believes wholeheartedly in the ideology of the Bush machine with all its neocon bells and whistles. Chevron did not hire her for equal opportunity reasons.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:47:28 AM EST
    Neocondi for VP, What a site that would be. It would be nice, If little miss Rice. Had a touch of diplomacy. Sunday bloody Sunday!

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#40)
    by oldtree on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:56:59 AM EST
    always humorous how our country goes down the path to crap replace one POS with another POS. Both incompetent, vindictive, irresponsible. these are their choices? tuck your head between your knees, bend over and kiss it goodbye. you have been warned

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#41)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:57:12 AM EST
    I'd stop linking to the London Times. They just rehash old old news. Fred Barnes, who is quoted in the LT artile, called for Cheney's resignation and replacement by Condi Rice in a March 20 WSJ op ed. More recently he's praised Bush for ignoring his advice and making only modest changes. The London Times appears to be a hack newspaper. Their "40,000 Iranian suicide bombers" article to which you linked was based on a 2 year old news story.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 11:30:03 AM EST
    Susan: Perhaps all any Democratic presidential/vp candidates have to do to win in 2008 is to run against the record of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice and come up with a platform that counters it.

    I agree, though in running against that record I think they need to develop their mass communications much farther and into much more robust machines than they were in the past two elections, to be able to repeatedly drive home the message, continually remind people of bushco's dismal record, and make that record the preeminant issue of both this years and the 2008 elections. Rove will still be a huge force to contend with, and have more time to concentrate on electioneering since his recent function change.

    One of the few things I think bush has ever said that has more than a grain of truth in it is:

    See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.
    --George W. Bush, May 24, 2005

    That is their, and Rove's, thinking, and that is what they do best. Democrats have to become at least as effective, and unremittingly put the republicans into a position of having to defend an indefensible record, never stop hammering at it, and never give them a chance to define the issues no matter how hard Rove tries.

    Developing a coherent well thought out and intelligent platform, especially a foreign policy that will define new directions for America in the 21st century is even more important for the longer term, and will help immensely as it will provide the sorely needed positives to accentuate while shining the brightest light possible on bushco's record of drastically expanding the murderous and interventionist foreign policy that has been pursued by successive US administrations for nearly a century.

    The details of that new foreign policy are beyond my ability to map out, and much more capable and experienced people than I will do that hard work, but I think that the mindset that is needed to develop it must be based upon beginning to move towards working and living with the rest of the world, rather than attempting to force the world at gunpoint and through bombsights into submitting to its will and its all-consuming and all-corrupting desire for the resources of the planet.



    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 11:41:02 AM EST
    I been warped by the rain, driven by the snow I'm drunk and dirty, don't ya know, And I'm still willin' Out on the road late last night, Seen my pretty Alice in every head light Alice, Dallas Alice ... I've been kicked by the wind, robbed by the sleet Had my head stoved in, but I'm still on my feet And I'm still... willin' --Lowell George and Little Feat


    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 11:49:48 AM EST
    I find it interesting that these reports of this purported Republican call for Cheney to resign and be replaced by Rice are featured by news organizations in the UK. (Some well-placed interviews proffered by the administration's PR machine. . . ?) (1) That suggests a publicity effort much like a play opening "out of town" before it opens on Broadway; (2) It calls up again why such a positive feature about Condi Rice's being a pianist in a chamber music group appeared on the front page of the Arts & Leisure sec. of the NYT a couple of weeks ago (humanizing her and protect her from prior demonizing in the media); (3) This "trial balloon" appears to be yet another attempt to deflect the attention of "the American people" and the world Plamegate and from Iraq (and getting rid of Sec'y Rumsfeld) to Iran, fears of nuclear arms build up in the Middle East, etc. To keep some perspective on "the gruesome foursome," see this letter (published in the Salt Lake City Tribune (from the part of the country that serves as the setting of Big Love). It will make no difference at all for the country and the world if the Bush administration replaces any one of the "gruesome foursome" with the other (or another--cut from the same PNAC cloth)--all of them have to go and be replaced with new directions for America in the 21st century. The crucial question really is: when (how soon) and how? We already know the who, the why, and the what for. Yes, let's elect (not select) a majority of Democrats in Congress and turn around the current direction of the country. Even if we didn't get a Democratic president/vice president in 2008 (which I hope we do, of course), we'd at least have leveled the playing field. BTW: Perhaps all any Democratic presidential/vp candidates have to do to win in 2008 is to run against the record of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice and come up with a platform that counters it. Put Rice in place of Cheney, and that would still be the case. Bush would still be the symbol of the past administration.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:18:39 PM EST
    Rice has presidential ambitions of her own. That's a nice thought, Al, but it goes against every public uttrance I can find her having made on the subject. Do you have any evidence that she is playing Hillary's game, or is this just an empty assumption?

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:23:43 PM EST
    JR- ever heard of google? Rice has presidential ambitions of her own

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:24:34 PM EST
    Sorry JR I meant JP for the above link.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#47)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:24:36 PM EST


    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#48)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:31:01 PM EST
    I'm torn between thinking it's better for Democrats in 2006 and 2008 if Bush keeps Cheney and Rumsfeld--and hoping they go for the good of the country. Your thoughts?
    The good of the country will be served if the Republicans lose the next two elections. The albatross of Rumsfeld/Cheney hurts the Republican party and that's why some have floated the idea of replacing them. In any case, Cheney and Rumsfeld leaving will not help the country unless the national security policies they have espoused are changed also. This will not happen because they are Bush's policies also, and he is unlikely to change them, especially since he is not running for reelection but running for his place in history.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#49)
    by Al on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 12:50:35 PM EST
    JP, certainly I think Rice will run if she feels she has a chance, whatever she says at this point. I'm sure she is just as ambitious as Hillary Clinton.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 01:13:01 PM EST
    Cheney and Rumsfeld leaving will not help the country unless the national security policies they have espoused are changed also. This will not happen because they are Bush's policies also, and he is unlikely to change them, National Security is inextricably tied to Foreign Policy. The latter is in fact driven to a great degree by the former, but is driven perhaps even more so by the desire to keep the US economy afloat and growing. In that context the motivations of bushco supporters become clearer. Money to buy the things they think they want, and future prosperity, to be able to continue to do so. Everything around them in their lives looked peaceful and wonderful for so many years. Nobody gets hurt. The resource wars are just TV shows. There are no "real" people being maimed shredded and killed that they can see up close and personal to provide them with all the comforts they enjoy. In their minds only "demons" are killed and there is never any blood spattered on them. They can just push a wall of 20 year olds into the line of fire while they vote with their wallets for anyone who will promise them the eternal valueless sameness of life in a glittering amusement park. US Foreign Policy has provided this for them for a hundred years. "Why change it if it ain't broke", they ask. If anyone is now attacking us it must be unprovoked and they are just demons and bogeymen who deserve to die. They can't be "real" people who are attacking in retaliation because they have been burned and killed by the murderous policies of the past hundreds years, can they? WE can't possibly own a share of the responsibility for what is happening can we? Of course not. Just kill more of them and the problem of "terrorism" will magically go away? ----- Why is is so hard to see that digging up the root will stop the terrorism? Why is it so hard for otherwise ordinary people so see that there can be no true National Security without a Foreign Policy that is geared towards living and working with the rest of the world, rather than provoking them into retaliatory attacks, to acquire the resources necessary to keep the amusement park operating? Things might cost few cents more? Is that the problem?

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#51)
    by Aaron on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 02:11:10 PM EST
    Now we have George W. Bush standing before the American people red-faced and defiant, telling us all that he's going to do what he thinks is best regardless of our will, or the criticisms of US military professionals. And, there's been talk of use of nuclear weapons in a preemptive strike. Hard to believe that any responsible US leader would for one moment considering such a thing. More and more George W. Bush's actions and words sound like those of a dictator, acting out of a Machiavellian certainty that he does and what he's creating will be best for all. This is the very antithesis of a democratic society. It is nothing less than fascism incarnate. We now know for a reasonable certainty that George W. Bush misled the entire nation in order to take us to war. At this point there is little to prevent him from from continuing to act upon his own personal convictions regardless. Interesting development, the president of the United States, our elected representative, choosing to ignore the wishes of the people he represents. Makes you wonder if he's ever consider them at all. George W. Bush has already betrayed the oath of office he took when he swore to uphold the Constitution. I have no doubt that he will continue along this disastrous course to the detriment of all humanity. For in his mind the only thing that matters are his beliefs. Beliefs and a belief system which have been carefully constructed for him. Those that control this man's actions must be very proud of their creation.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#52)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 02:13:06 PM EST
    Why is it so hard for otherwise ordinary people so see that there can be no true National Security without a Foreign Policy that is geared towards living and working with the rest of the world, rather than provoking them into retaliatory attacks, to acquire the resources necessary to keep the amusement park operating?
    Because to most people such a defense policy sounds weak and feckless (and self hating). Right now the Democratic defense policy is that the Repubs are "incompetent" and we, the Dems, can do "it" better. What that "it" is, the Dems are afraid to say, but most espouse the same goals as the Repubs. The problem with the Democrats on defense policy is that no one believes they will kill for what they believe in. Until they can project a level of gravamen and steel eyed courage, the Dems cannot risk articulating more reasonable and less chauvanistic goals than the neo-cons. The "they are incompetent" campaign may be enough for the Dems to barely retake congress. Who knows. That's why it's important to keep Cheney and Rumsfeld around as the symbol of Republican incompetence.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 02:24:47 PM EST
    Aaron: We now know for a reasonable certainty that George W. Bush misled the entire nation in order to take us to war. At this point there is little to prevent him from from continuing to act upon his own personal convictions regardless.
    ...regime change in Iran not only may appear doable, it may also look like the only way out of the spectacular mess they have created in Iraq.

    The logic is understandable, if malevolent. Instead of creating a secular, pro-American client state in the heart of the Middle East, the invasion of Iraq has destroyed the front-line Arab regime opposing Tehran, installed a pro-Iranian government in Baghdad and vastly increased Iranian influence, not only in Iraq, but throughout the Shi'a world. It's also moved the Revolutionary Guard one step closer to the Kuwaiti and Saudi oil fields - the prize upon which the energy security of the West depends.

    By the traditional standards of U.S. foreign policy, this is a fiasco of almost unbelievable proportions.
    ...
    In other words, the administration, and the Pentagon, have gotten themselves into one hell of a jam - militarily, strategically and politically. As desperate and reckless as attempted regime change in Iran might seem to us, to the Cheneyites it may look like the only move left on the board. The Flight Forward?



    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 02:37:03 PM EST
    Aaron-
    More and more George W. Bush's actions and words sound like those of a dictator, acting out of a Machiavellian certainty that he does and what he's creating will be best for all.
    Actually the Chimp plays the part of the jester/clown/adolescent boy king who prances around making jokes while the heavy guns propping him up are pointed at the audience. Not to say he is a just a paper tiger and those around him have all the muscle. No, he has the muscle and is not to be underestimated. That personal power is what affords him the luxury to play the fool. He smugly trots about as the clown while thumbing his nose, because he is untouchable and he knows it. That is, he is untouchable today. We will see what happens to his power in November, that is, if another war of convenience doesn't rig the whole game once again.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#55)
    by swingvote on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 03:10:16 PM EST
    Squeaky, Ever heard of reading the links a Google search pulls up? The headlines may say Rice has presidential ambitions, but she keeps saying she doesn't. I was asking for a direct quote from her that she doesn, not some liberal dimwits conspiracy theory prognostications that she really does no matter what she says.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 03:11:41 PM EST
    Squeaky: ...the Chimp plays the part of the jester/clown/adolescent boy king who prances around making jokes while the heavy guns propping him up are pointed at the audience. Fortunate Son?
    Some folks are born made to wave the flag, Ooh, they're red, white and blue. And when the band plays hail to the chief, Ooh, they point the cannon at you...


    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 03:15:42 PM EST
    JP-It is common practice not to announce your run for presidency too early. Hillary has not announced her run for presidency but you seem to have no problem claiming that she is running. You can not have it both ways. Don't you read what you write?

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 03:16:57 PM EST
    justpaul -
    I was asking for a direct quote from her that she doesnt, not some liberal dimwits conspiracy theory prognostications that she really does no matter what she says.
    Insults are all this guys got to offer? An innuendo is an "italian suppository", jp. You know what to do with suppositories, don't you? Jeralyn - delete this comment if you want, but I think he asked for it.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 03:40:39 PM EST
    Get ready for a long tantrum.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:13:41 PM EST
    The tantrum can go in the same place.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:15:50 PM EST
    "I'm torn between thinking it's better for Democrats in 2006 and 2008 if Bush keeps Cheney and Rumsfeld--and hoping they go for the good of the country. Your thoughts?" I guess the "good of the country" is not enough for some people.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:33:26 PM EST
    The problem with the Democrats on defense policy is that no one believes they will kill for what they believe in. The problem with the Democrats on defense policy is that they so far haven't been able to clearly get the message across to a public paralyzed by fears manufactured by imaginationless republicans who treat them as children and idiots and who have coldly used 9/11 to fan the flames of fear and hate, that there are ways to enhance National Security far beyond anything bushco can do, and that the republican party has tied it's fortunes to not only keeping terrorism alive, but to seeing it grow. But they are learning...

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 04:45:01 PM EST
    Correction, They are both learning. The Democrats, and the public.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:24:51 PM EST
    Aaron writes:
    Now we have George W. Bush standing before the American people red-faced and defiant, telling us all that he's going to do what he thinks is best regardless of our will, or the criticisms of US military professionals.
    In case you have forgotten, or perhaps you never knew, we have a constitutional republic in which people are elected for a defined period of time. We don't have government by poll, or any other inane device supposedly revealing the "will of the people." Traslation - "Will of the people:" In this case, what those who lost the election want done. Edger writes:
    Why is it so hard for otherwise ordinary people so see that there can be no true National Security without a Foreign Policy that is geared towards living and working with the rest of the world,
    Maybe because it is so totally wrong that just about everyone can recognize it for what it is. Nonsense. Really Edger, your continuing defense of

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:32:08 PM EST
    Mmmmm, hmmmm.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:33:38 PM EST
    Frank Zappa observed, "It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity, and make it work for you."

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:22:42 PM EST
    edger writes:
    Mmmmm, hmmmm
    I'm channeling a picture of edger with hands over ears...

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:45:38 PM EST
    Jim, being elected does not mean you stop listening to the people. Since Bush is at 33%, some people that voted for Bush are disappointed and dissatisfied with him. Being elected does not mean you can do whatever you want - we still have laws. Nixon was elected, and that didn't help him.
    Traslation - "Will of the people:" In this case, what those who lost the election want done
    Like I said before, Bush is only at 33%, so some of the people who won the election now are unhappy!!!!!
    Maybe because it is so totally wrong that just about everyone can recognize it for what it is. Nonsense.
    Have I missed something? What is nonsense is a foreign policy that is NOT geared towards living and working with the rest of the world. Bush sure worked hard to get along with the president from China!!!

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#69)
    by chew2 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:14:50 PM EST
    The problem with the Democrats on defense policy is that they so far haven't been able to clearly get the message across to a public paralyzed by fears....
    Perhaps because the Dems look fearful themselves? When I spoke of "killing" for what you believe in, I should have said "killing and dieing for what you believe in". 9/11 has understandably heightened American's fear of Islamic Jihadis. They shouldn't be that afraid, because they are only a small number of enemies with a bankrupt ideology. Who will tell the American people to be brave and not to fear? The same lefties who panic at a hyped story of 40,000 Iranian suicide bombers? We need brave lefties.
    They are both learning. The Democrats, and the public.
    Dream on.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 01:34:04 AM EST
    chew2, I know you had trouble understanding everything, except your own posts, that was posted in the thread about 40,000 Iranian suicide bombers, and I can see that your'e having the same problem with Frank Zappas comments today as well. It's bad enough to have the problem by itself, I do hope it's not intentional.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:00:37 AM EST
    Posted by Squeaky April 23, 2006 04:15 PM JP-It is common practice not to announce your run for presidency too early. Hillary has not announced her run for presidency but you seem to have no problem claiming that she is running. You can not have it both ways. Don't you read what you write?
    Nobody else does, why should he? You were expectin' rational thought from the jeepster? Perish the thought.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:28:46 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ April 23, 2006 07:24 PM
    Aaron writes: Now we have George W. Bush standing before the American people red-faced and defiant, telling us all that he's going to do what he thinks is best regardless of our will, or the criticisms of US military professionals. In case you have forgotten, or perhaps you never knew, we have a constitutional republic in which people are elected for a defined period of time. We don't have government by poll, or any other inane device supposedly revealing the "will of the people." Traslation - "Will of the people:" In this case, what those who lost the election want done. Edger writes: Why is it so hard for otherwise ordinary people so see that there can be no true National Security without a Foreign Policy that is geared towards living and working with the rest of the world, Maybe because it is so totally wrong that just about everyone can recognize it for what it is. Nonsense.
    We do, eh? Then Gore is well into his second term and our Long National Nightmare really is over. Lucky for us. Lucky for the rest of the World. Not unless ya like what they say. Still leadin' that wack-wide boycott against spell-check I see, Jim. Oh, so that's why he's at 33 percent in the al bushira poll. Nice try. Show yourself out.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 06:43:52 AM EST
    charlie - Glad to see you back from your jet trip. Was the seat comfortable? Now let me see, I point out we have a constitutional republic and that people aren't buying into the one world nonsense spewed by Edger and you counter by claiming that Gore won, and that I don't use spell check. Careful there charlie. If such strong arguments get out of the laboratory they could destroy the world. Wow! BTW - 34% and still the Pres. I'm LOL. debbie - If you want to believe that Bush should be impeached, believe away. It is not going to happen. As for your claim that Bush is "supposed" to listen to the "people," nice try but no cigar. That is a dream of the those who lost the election. It is not in the Constitution. And nations do not have "friends." Nations have "interests." You really should study that concept. You should also study the concept that in situations in which you have two interest groups, another country and the US, our government is supposed to place our interests first. Then, if possible, we can consider the needs of others. Which, btw, we have done very well.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#74)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 06:54:23 AM EST
    The entire infrastructure of Iraq has been collapsed, there has been total anarchy in the country, even the US seems to be helpless to find peace in stability in Iraq, yet, the Bush administration is now planning to deal with Iran with another military action on Iran's nuclear issue.

    Things are much better in Iraq now, thanks to bush being such a great president and visionary leader...



    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:22:34 AM EST
    BTW - 34% and still the Pres. I'm LOL. Unless the number goes up, most of the GOP Congressmen and many of the GOP Senators (who are running this year, lest ye forget) will be running as far from aWol as they can because being linked to him will be the kiss of electoral death. Them are the hard facts, PPJ. Oh, and you haven't explained why the guy who makes money at politics(who was the answer to your question) is wrong and you're right. Remember, PPJ: Repeating yourself and telling us how much you're laughing proves a point, but not the one you think it does.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#76)
    by Aaron on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 12:32:01 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ I'm not surprised by your attempt to cloud the issues with these condescending arguments and continual attempts to obfuscate the larger issues. Apparently you don't realize that when the President of the United lies to the people of the US in order to make war on another nation for personal motivations, that's a treason. Here's a little refresher course on the definition of that word. Treason -- 1. A crime that undermines the offender's government 2. Disloyalty by virtue of subversive behavior 3. An act of deliberate betrayal As a member of the military, I'm sure you realize that if you knowingly lied to your superiors, and those lies led to the United States going to war unnecessarily, you would be charged with treason and subject to the death penalty for your crimes, not to mention being personally responsible for every death which resulted from your disloyalty. Perhaps during your career in the military you yourself betrayed America, and found a way to rationalize away your actions. Maybe that's why you're willing to give George W. Bush or pass for his treasonous disloyalty. That would not surprise me. And judging by your arguments, you seem to think that this is about partisan politics, it isn't, it's about right and wrong, it's about a president putting his loyalty to to a small number of friends and supporters ahead of his loyalty to all the people of the United States of America. But perhaps concepts of loyalty and honor are difficult for you to grasp, and judging by your your willingness to overlook such transgressions and high crimes simply because they were committed by someone you support politically, apparently that is the case.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#77)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 12:48:58 PM EST
    Aaron-The only problem with your air tight logic is that you forget that the infallible one claims special dispensation because there is a war. So what if he started it illegally, now that it is on all the rules change. He claims unitary executive status and the Justice department (Abu Gonzales) backs him up on it, Treason is legal for the president. If he does it, it is not a crime. Why, well because he is the president, and we are at war.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 05:11:53 PM EST
    Jim, Bush is suppose to be the president of America, and yes he should listen to Americans. We all pay his salary not just the people that voted for him. Like I said before - Bush is only at 32% now, so that means that people that WON the election are upset with him now. I hate to break it to you Jim, but the constitution does not say that the president should not listen to the people or that the president should completely disregard the people.

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 06:57:40 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - How they run is of no importance to the Repub party. If they win... That is the question. And I'm still LOL. ;-) debbie - Fact is we do not have a parlimentary system, so there is no way to force an election based on "no confidence." Really, debbie, did they teach anything about our government when you were in high school? And no, I'm not being snarky. Based on your comments, I get the feeling they didn't. Aaron writes:
    I'm sure you realize that if you knowingly lied to your superiors, and those lies led to the United States going to war unnecessarily, you would be charged with treason and subject to the death penalty for your crimes,
    Huh? Really? Tell me, Aaron, when did you become an expert on the UCMJ? I think treason is "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." Also stated as:
    the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family
    So be careful when throwing that word around. It may fall on places, people and things that you would not want. Of course you might get me for filing a false report. Or perjury.... Wait! That's already been done... a few years back. Edger - Psst! Pass this along to your friends at Peace Journalism, "Iraq has been invaded. That tends to destroy infrastructure."

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:26:37 PM EST
    This could be interesting. linked text
    The Senate Armed Services Committee will vote on a request by Senator Hillary Clinton to take testimony from six retired generals who have called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's removal."
    13 r's against 11 d's, Some r's would have to regain their sanity. Unlikely, hard to imagine as they have too much to lose. Some might like to distance themselves from the Lame Chimp in November's elections. .

    Re: LA Times: Dump Cheney and Rumsfeld (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 08:56:11 PM EST
    How they run is of no importance to the Repub party. I didn't say that it was, but it's funny how you twist things around to "I'm always right, you're always wrong!" Sorry to use facts and logic on you, but the two scenarios are pretty clear: 1: If they run from the President, it could discourage the true believers like yourself,(thus depressing turnout)who aren't the majority these days, as you can see from any poll taken in the last 90 days or, 2: They run with the President, they risk being limited to the base while running off those voters who aren't BAK. And I'm still LOL. ;-) You should share your joy with the aforementioned Tom Edmonds, PPJ, he certainly sounds as if he could use the cheering up :)
    Debbie - Fact is we do not have a parlimentary system, so there is no way to force an election based on "no confidence." Really, debbie, did they teach anything about our government when you were in high school?
    She wasn't implying that, PPJ, but it's funny how quick you are to accuse others of ignorance when you have run out of other accusations or snarkiness to throw against them, but the fact that you don't realize how it makes you look is a point in your favor :) YMMV