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Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 06:13:48 PM EST
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Megyn Kendall of Fox News is reporting that she spoke to the accuser's father who relayed to her that his daughter told him she was sodomized with a broomstick and isn't certain of the third player's identity.

Last week I predicted Gloria Allred would show up to represent the accuser. She's in New York tonight on Hannity and Colmes, talking about how the accuser needs excellent representaton.

Is she making a pitch?

Update: Two of the legal commentators on Greta's show just came out opining the accuser needs representation and suggested Gloria. One of them is in California, and said, "maybe she's [Gloria] is in that part of the country right now.] He knows she was on the H & C segment Allred a few minutes before he went on.

Someone should point out that if Gloria gets in the case, the accuser's life will be dissected in public 100 times more than it has been to date. Every time Gloria says something negative about the players, their lawyers will have new grounds under the ethical rules of conduct (see safe harbor rule discussed here) to go on tv and say why it's false.

I don't doubt the accuser needs a lawyer, but I don't approve of trolling to get the job on cable news.

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    • Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick | 116 comments (116 topical)
    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#1)
    by Teresa on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:40:43 PM EST
    I can hardly tolerate Gloria. Can't someone else advise that woman? TL, are you always on Fox? It's so hard for me to watch their shows but I will if you could put time estimates on here for us.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#2)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:13:09 PM EST
    Accuser's father interviewed by Rita Cosby: Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for April 25

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:59:52 PM EST
    I don't believe that the search warrants listed a broom as an item to be searched for or as an item to be seized. Isn't that right? And doesn't it say somethng about this theory if it wasn't listed in the search warrants? Perhaps the father is confused. Perhaps this is an after-arising story. Any thoughts?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#4)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:19:46 PM EST
    DO in San Mateo It could be an evolving story. CNN ran a story which indicates the sad state of emotion and fear the alleged victim is in right now. She's received innumerous death threats - including a stack of flyers with death threats thrown on her parents' lawn. Her parents don't know where she is - she calls up to say "I'm allright" then hangs up because she's afraid her phone is being traced. I hope that she comes under the protection of someone soon who can get her some psychological help. In a similar sad story - a Southern California co-ed accused a high profile quarterback of sexual assault earlier today. Within a couple of hours, threats have been posted on the college sports forum. Speculation is fun - I feel for what the accused have to go through - but all these threats have to put the alleged victims off base.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#5)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:59:12 PM EST
    She's received innumerous death threats - including a stack of flyers with death threats thrown on her parents' lawn. Her parents don't know where she is - she calls up to say "I'm allright" then hangs up because she's afraid her phone is being traced.
    Inumerous threats might be an exageration. But all this white male resentful whining about how all the poor little lacrosse team members are being villified and their lives ruined sounds like a total wuss out. Woman have had too endure much more. If the lacrosse team members had cooperated with the police, we wouldn't have to call them chicken.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:11:42 PM EST
    Chew2, Wouldn't you listen to the advice of your atty if you were facing serious criminal charges? I was involved in a case where a wife filed a restraining order against her hubby. The husband wanted to speak, but it would have subjected him to cross from the DA. You could see it in her eyes that she just wanted to hang this guy, regardless if he was innocent or not. Never expose yourself to an overzelous prosecutor. They'll take you down any chance they get. (Especially one involved in a re-election campaign.) You might just say the wrong thing and they could twist what you said and use it against you. C'mon man, think about it! Innocent til proven guilty.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#7)
    by chew2 on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:26:58 PM EST
    Spyderman, It seems that every man who whines about the poor lacrosse players, has had some issue with a woman or a stripper. So much of the male comments on this blog, sound like guys who have been played by some stripper or woman and can't get over it. ( (And then there are the politically conservative white males, who have to defend their position from those attacks by undeserving black folks and woman.) Who is getting villified in the press? It's not the lacrosse players. The defense attorneys have made sure of that.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#8)
    by cpinva on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:05:48 PM EST
    chew2, get off your morally ignorant high horse, it's getting dull, as are you. the accused don't have to prove a thing, that is the state's bar to hurdle. were i the father of one of them, i would tell him to shut the hell up, until his attorney got there, regardless of his guilt or innocence. they aren't required to "cooperate" with the police, especially since they are suspects. to do so would be sheer idiocy on their parts. the police in those circumstances are not your friend, they are the enemy, who will, and legally can, lie to you. why would any rational being, in similar circumstances, cooperate with them, regardless of guilt or innocence? what other woman have gone through is irrelevant. only what happened in this case matters. that the accuser has received threats is horrible. anyone who can be proved to have done so should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, regardless of how the case itself turns out. that has nothing to do with due process, which, as i recall, everyone is entitled to, accused as well as accuser. unlike you, and many other posters, i have no idea what actually happened in that house. that's why i'm reserving judgement until all the facts come out. one thing i will say, any woman who willingly puts herself in that situation is an idiot. this doesn't mean she "deserved it", whatever "it" turns out to be, just that exercising a tad more common sense might have kept her safe to begin with. hopefully, this might serve as a warning to others, but i'm not going to bet the mortgage payment on it.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#9)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:50:01 AM EST
    unlike you, and many other posters, i have no idea what actually happened in that house. that's why i'm reserving judgement until all the facts come out.
    cp, I don't think anyone really knows what happened. That's why we're sitting here coming up with scenarios that try to fit both sides. I think it's hard to deny that the players are getting the benefit of a huge PR campaign on their behalf. I think that's what causes some of us to try and defend the accuser to an extent. But like you, I will wait for all the evidence to come out, if it does. I think this massive media campaign will cause her to drop the case before it goes to trial so we may never know.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:01:31 AM EST
    Cpvina writes to Chew2,
    get off your morally ignorant high horse
    and then writes
    [The Duke students] aren't required to "cooperate" with the police
    Your position, Cpvina, doesn't strike me as having anything to do with morals. It's not immoral to trust the police, or to provide evidence to help them when a crime is alleged. It may or may not be stupid to do so, but that isn't a moral question, it's a practical one. The Duke students' decision to play the justice system as a team sport is a tactical decision, not an ethical one. Nothing would be "wrong" with any one of them taking a different approach. Right? The portrait of this Prosecutor as someone who is going to try and convict the lacrosse students no matter what evidence they provide isn't an immoral portrait. It's obviously a socially retarded portrait. But right and wrong have nothing to do with it. It's not that there aren't moral elements to this story. Race and class-baiting are immoral in addition to being socially retarded. But the grandfather statement alone wouldn't have catapulted this story to the cover of Newsweek. The addition of awall of silence was required to make it worthy of all this attention. You have to understand you're talking to the "candid world" here. The "candid world" is a subset of the general public. We're the people who are interested in the truth. It's a fair question whether we, the candid world, have any business worrying about these Duke students at all during this early stage of their ordeal. I think we obviously do, since there are fair trial issues involved, and it's our job to vigilantly safeguard fair trials. But if the Duke students don't care to appeal to the candid world for aid, that's certainly their business. The candid world is not particularly user-friendly.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#11)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:04:45 AM EST
    cpvina posted:
    one thing i will say, any woman who willingly puts herself in that situation is an idiot. this doesn't mean she "deserved it", whatever "it" turns out to be, just that exercising a tad more common sense might have kept her safe to begin with.
    hopefully, this might serve as a warning to others, but i'm not going to bet the mortgage payment on it.
    Might the same be said of the people who attended the party knowing the entertainment for 40+ guys, who would have been drinking for some time by the 11:30 pm showtime, was two women they were hoping would be gyrating in a near naked state? Why direct your warning to only the women involved? If you think the women were idiots for showing up at the party, what do you think of those who planned, paid for, and attended their performance? Surely you realize the women merely showing up for their gig did not create this situation? The party-goers idiotic behavior, before, during (whatever that turns out to be), and after the party, is what did. How about tweaking your cautionary tale a bit? any person who willingly puts themself in that situation is an idiot. this doesn't mean they "deserved it", whatever "it" turns out to be, just that exercising a tad more common sense might have kept them safe to begin with.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:01:23 AM EST
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they had used a broom stick on her wouldn't the charge have to be "rape with a instrument" or something like that? I know there is a legal difference when a instrument is used and they charge you differently than just rape.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:06:56 AM EST
    I have to agree with IMHO, getting drunk and hiring a stranger to come to your house to strip is almost as stupid as going to some drunk strangers house and stripping. I believe they are innocent, but stupid, and put themselves in a position to be charged.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:32:30 AM EST
    Who is getting villified in the press? It's not the lacrosse players. The defense attorneys have made sure of that.
    So you think you would have heard about that guy beating and calling the other guy gay if these charges didn't come up? What about public urination, you think the would be front page news? Both sides are being vilified, it's a real shame.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:49:36 AM EST
    It seems to me that every person supporting the woman in this case wants to be a knight in shining armor and demonstrate how compassionate they are for rape victims. I have not heard one of the AV defenders come out and question the criminal background of the AV or her possible motivations. Conversely, I have seen many of the alleged defenders of the rich whiteys state on several occasions that the email that was sent along with the racist comments proves that they are sh*theads. So I guess it boils down to which camp do you want to be in, the compassionate knight in shining armor camp, or the camp that supports the alleged racist, homophobic arsewipe raging whiteys. Let me say it again, I have no idea what happened that night as I was not there, but there is absolutely no reason any names should ever be disclosed until the end of the trial.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#16)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:13:59 AM EST
    GUNSHY posted:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they had used a broom stick on her wouldn't the charge have to be "rape with a instrument" or something like that? I know there is a legal difference when a instrument is used and they charge you differently than just rape.
    In North Carolina, First Degree Sexual Offense - N.C. GEN. STAT. § 14-27.4 - they are both charged with - covers penetration with an object.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#17)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:30:23 AM EST
    Gunshy, The "broomstick" allegation was discussed extensively towards the end of the prior duke lacrosse thread. The pertinent NC criminal statutes were quoted and discussed, as well as a Rita Cosby interview with the father in which he talks about the broomstick allegation. You can still see a video of this interview on the Rita Cosby MSNBC page. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8828200/

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:38:38 AM EST
    A question for TL: This morning's Durham Herald Sun is reporting, regarding the player that the IV identified with 90% certainty, "the dancer told police the man in question 'looks just like him without the mustache.'" From the article, it seems as if the player didn't have a mustache, either then or ever. If this is true (and from photos, I assume it would be easy to establish), and in combination with the DA's decision to restrict the photo line-up to just the players, wouldn't this be a compelling argument for a judge to suppress the other two photo IDs--ie, that the AV identified someone with 90% certainty who apparently doesn't exist?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:46:10 AM EST
    Okay thanks, One more question, if she had claimed that they used a broom when she was first questioned, do you think the DA would have made such bold statements about the DNA ? It seems that they are changing the story to fit the lack of evidence.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#20)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:47:36 AM EST
    I've noticed that the less facts that there are coming out about the case the more sniping there is between posters. Please, folks. This universe is big enough for both strippers who lie and frat boys who rape. I think what most of us want to know is what happened. At this place there is an emphasis by our host on individuals' rights in these legal proceedings. You can defend the rights of the accused without being a white, testosterone-driven, woman-hating guy. You can question the DA's tactics without being absolutely sure of the indicted men's innocence. You can believe the probability of a rape but not be sure there's a provable case. There are a myriad of positions. I know, because I seem to shift from day to day depending on what the latest news is. I learned from the OJ Case that the best way to know about a current legal proceeding is to not watch the stupid TV coverage of it (apologies to Rita Cosby et al). I guess people enjoy the name-calling or they wouldn't do it, but I prefer less slandering.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:53:01 AM EST
    I'm not sure that this guy knows what he is talking about, it may be a good point:
    With the indictment that the prosecutor had, he had three choices, aiding and abetting which he chose both for rape one and sex offense one. But he also had two other choices. He could go with serious physical injury having occurred during the rape or using a dangerous instrument or a weapon. Now, it's very interesting to note what he didn't choose. He didn't choose serious physical injury as a element and he didn't choose a dangerous instrument as an element.
    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#22)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:01:16 AM EST
    Less than a year removed from a one-goal loss in the National Championship game, the Duke men's lacrosse program is facing a precarious future
    Coaches and administrators from peer institutions have confirmed that there are several Duke players and recruits seeking to transfer or sign elsewhere. Syracuse Head Coach John Desko told the Syracuse Post Standard last week that Zack Greer - a Duke sophomore who led the country with 57 goals last season - had expressed interest in transferring to the Orange. Syracuse Director of Athletics Daryl Gross said his school would not actively pursue Duke players or recruits, but individuals who express interest in the school would be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
    I hope that evaluation includes an assessment of the player's involvement in the party and his conduct in its aftermath. I wonder if the players requesting transfers will reveal more information about the night in question to their prospective coaches than they did to the investigators? According to news reports, "several Duke Lacrosse players are breaking their silence." They have already told reporters/commentators more than they have told the police. In the ESPN article they have admitted to acts that could, arguably, be in breach of Syracuse's code of conduct:
    2. Harassment, whether physical or verbal, oral or written, which is beyond the bounds of protected free speech, directed at a specific individual(s),easily construed as "fighting words," and likely to cause an immediate breach of the peace.
    Does anyone think calling a black person a n*gger isn't using "fighting words?" Should the prospective coaches ask the players which teammate made the "I'm gonna shove this up you" remark, will they break their "Blue Wall of silence" to get into a new lacrosse program?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#23)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:01:24 AM EST
    There was no broomstick mentioned in the first search warrant and no broomstick was seized in the first search. Someone here (I think it was here) posted that it was mentioned in the second warrant. Being raped with a broomstick, especially after the odious comment right after the strippers began dancing, would seem to have been an important part of the story that an AV would tell to the nurses at the rape exam and to the police. On the other hand, the father is a second-hand source of information. He could have misheard, he could have exaggerated. Or the AV could have lied to him. We know little about their relationship. If the broomstick allegation shows up in Nifong's case now then it shows that the case is probably weak and falling apart. Otherwise, the father's comments are just part of the sideshow that is there to entertain us until the trial starts.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:04:38 AM EST
    This is such an obvious set up. Don't Strippers have escorts to these lap dance parties. Or at least some force (usually a man with muscles and sometimes a gun) within calling distance. Or they was doing it for the fun of it just to make some money.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#25)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:11:53 AM EST
    WSJ reports: "Wade Got Hookers for Duke--and Others?" http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000481.php

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:19:24 AM EST
    On Gloria Allred: I remember seeing a copy of an FBI memo from the 60s discussing the then-nascent feminist movement. This was during the COINTELPRO period when anti-war and civil rights movements were being infiltrated by the FBI and military intelligence in order to weaken and control them. I was in the anti-war movement during Vietnam. You could guess who an infiltrator was. He was the new guy in an otherwise peaceful group who wanted to bomb the induction center. Anyway, in the memo on feminism, it described how the movement gave the government an opportunity to cause mischief in the anti-war movement by dividing leftist men and women. About a decade ago I came across excerpts from an expose from the Redstockings, a leftist feminist group out of NYC, that detailed Gloria Steinem's work for the CIA in the "student movement" before she became known for being a feminist. Now whenever Steinem says something which sounds to me as intentionally divisive I wonder which station she is coming from. The same with Allred. She seems to insinuate herself into flashpoints and do nothing more than inflame passions without bringing much light to the situation. Just see how she divides, and try to monitor your own feelings once she opens her mouth. It's an amazingly effective strategy.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:27:42 AM EST
    Does anyone think calling a black person a n*gger isn't using "fighting words?"
    I think both sides are alleging racial statement were made, but nothing confirmed yet.
    Should the prospective coaches ask the players which teammate made the "I'm gonna shove this up you" remark, will they break their "Blue Wall of silence" to get into a new lacrosse program?
    What the players say happened was that the stripper were asked if they brought "toys", they said no, then one of the boys said "use this" reffering to the broom. Pretty disgusting and immature but not a threat.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#28)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:28:31 AM EST
    GUNSHY posted:
    have to agree with IMHO, getting drunk and hiring a stranger to come to your house to strip is almost as stupid as going to some drunk strangers house and stripping. I believe they are innocent, but stupid, and put themselves in a position to be charged.
    almost as stupid? Some of them have put themselves in a postion to possibly serve 12 - 16 years in prison. How about "just as stupid?"

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:50:42 AM EST
    And she could have been killed.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#30)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:54:02 AM EST
    DO in San Mateo posted:
    I don't believe that the search warrants listed a broom as an item to be searched for or as an item to be seized. Isn't that right? And doesn't it say somethng about this theory if it wasn't listed in the search warrants? Perhaps the father is confused. Perhaps this is an after-arising story. Any thoughts?
    The "broom comment," made by a player, was not mentioned in the first search warrant, but it was in the second. The first warrant was written two days after the party. Maybe she had not disclosed the broomstick assault part of the attack to the SANE nurse or the police yet, maybe she still has not, maybe is not true. The second search warrant was written about three weeks after the party. Maybe the broomstick quote came after they had a chance to interview Kim. If Kim talking about the broomstick got the accuser to reaveal that part of the assault, it still would not have been mentioned in the second search warrant - that warrant was for McFadyen's dorm room. Some people consider certain types of sexual assaults more humilating than others. Some could be more traumatic than others. There are reasons this could be a later disclosure on her part, then again she may have been telling this story from the start. I noticed the search warrant listed garbage as an item they could search, but I didn't see garbage bags on the list of items siezed. I wonder when the garbage pick up day for that street is. You'd think two days after the party there would be bags of trash from the clean up. I would have taken every speck of trash if I was serving that warrant. Bet you would find a cup with lipstick on it in those trash bags.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:55:19 AM EST
    Come one IMHO concede just one point, You can do it :)

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#32)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:55:50 AM EST
    And she could have been killed.
    And Kim could have been "packin' heat", or at least run them over.
    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#33)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:58:01 AM EST
    GUNSHY posted:
    Come one IMHO concede just one point, You can do it :)
    You'll have to make a good one to find out.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#34)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:59:11 AM EST
    Hate speech used by the students goes to their character. I doubt that most people in America haven't condemned people by their race at some point in their lives. chew2 here seems to keep bringing up the her presumption of racial identity of those who disagree with her. And she brings it up in negative terms. Is saying that someone is a white testosterone-driven male better than dropping the n-word? I guess you could say it has the veneer of bad science to it, which would put that kind of name-calling in "bell-curve" territory. In a society so divided by class I find it unexceptional that these men would use racist hate speech. I wouldn't doubt that Kim Roberts or the AV haven't at some point had derogatory comments about some of their clients based on or colored by the clients' race. Racism is a sore that lots of people are drawn to, and they inevitably tend to expose their own beliefs in condemning others. There is an element of racism among the privileged. Just like the rest of us. It doesn't prove or disprove the rape.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:59:12 AM EST
    not gonna do it huh :) If it is determined they got rid of the broom, I may have to change my mind.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:01:19 AM EST
    Jlvngstn wrote:
    Let me say it again, I have no idea what happened that night as I was not there, but there is absolutely no reason any names should ever be disclosed until the end of the trial.
    On principle I oppose prior restraints on the press, which is all this amounts to. There are remedies for false accusations, but the least appropriate of these is the gagging of the people whose accusations are in fact true. For the same reason Holmes found it valuable that innocent people not be convicted though guilty people go free, I think it is important that honest people go uncensored though liars get to speak.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:03:13 AM EST
    If they are looking for a white college-age male with a mustache, it should be pretty easy to narrow it down. I work on a college campus similar to Duke, and mustaches are nearly unseen on white male students unless they are growing them as a joke or a contest. In other words, a mustache would be extremely memorable to other students -- if there is a mustachioed rapist, expanding the search and/or sharing this info to ask for leads from other students would have helped a LOT.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#38)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:13:33 AM EST
    GUNSHY, how do we know that there was a broom? Roberts mentioned the comment. Was someone brandishing the broom? Anyone else mention the presence of a broom? Maybe they have a vacuum cleaner. Here's another question: Do people normally keep a broom in the bathroom? In a bathroom with four people, how easy is it to rape someone with a broomstick? I've heard that the room is 5x8. The bathroom had a toilet, presumably a sink and quite possibly a shower or bathtub. Older houses don't generally have large bathrooms with lots of floorspace. While it's true that people can be humiliated by rape and may fail to report some details, being raped with a broomstick seems like a pretty big issue to ignore. I would imagine that as part of the rape examination the nurse would specifically ask who stuck what where. If you report being raped in a bathroom by three men, why hide this detail? My guess is that the father threw it out as a hail mary under the kleig lights. I don't expect to hear anything about it from the DA. But that's only my expectation.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:13:40 AM EST
    IMHO, the second warrant mentions the broom comment, but it doesn't list the broom as something they are specifically searching for or seized. To me, that indicates that it was not considered to be all that significant. Either the DA at that time did not consider the broom to be the instrument of crime, or he had already obtained the broom through another source (landfill with the rest of the trash? a cooperating witness who we don't know about?) It could be either but I think the father (who we know has very imcomplete communication with his daughter) is just making stuff up.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#40)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:14:38 AM EST
    khartoum posted:
    This morning's Durham Herald Sun is reporting, regarding the player that the IV identified with 90% certainty, "the dancer told police the man in question 'looks just like him without the mustache.'" From the article, it seems as if the player didn't have a mustache, either then or ever.
    From the article:
    But the alleged third rapist had no mustache on the relevant night, if he ever had one, according to attorneys. They said photographs and eyewitnesses would prove their point.
    Maybe this is why the investigators were asking that reporter about the defense photos. They asked about the player(s) cropped out of the photo of the accuser being helped into Kim's car.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#41)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:27:00 AM EST
    GUNSHY posted:
    not gonna do it huh :)
    If it is determined they got rid of the broom, I may have to change my mind.
    I thought you were talking about your "she could have been killed comment." If it is the "broom search warrant" point you want me to concede: In my response to "any thoughts ?" on the no broom in the search warrant, I did include the option that the broom is not listed because she did not tell the nurse or police because it is not true. If it is a lie, it's a lie. Not much to discuss there, so I discussed the other options. Are you going to concede I did, in fact, make that concession? :)

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:29:57 AM EST
    Are you going to concede I did, in fact, make that concession? :)
    Yes I am, good job!

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#43)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:47:12 AM EST
    We know from Roberts, the security guard and the cop that around 1:20 the AV (by the way, what does IV stand for?) was extremely intoxicated. The 12:41 photo seems to indicate she was really out of it. It's been reported that the AV couldn't tell anyone her address at Kroger's. There is a report that the AV reported the rape at Kroger's which seems to be contradicted by her first being taken to the substance abuse center, and by both Roberts and the security guard not knowing of the claim of rape at that point. All of this goes to the question of her ability to make any ID of the alleged rapists. If she is having problems with the third, and if Seligmann's alibi is as good as it appears, without physical evidence connecting these guys to a rape the prosecution may have a hard time getting a jury to accept her IDs. If the victim was so out of it between 12:41 to 1:30 that she couldn't remember where she lived, is it possible that she could remember who raped her at 12:15? This is actually a question for someone who knows more about rufies than I do.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#44)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:48:48 AM EST
    PB - What are the remedies for false accusations and how do these men recover? Financial? Blood from a turnip. A not guilty verdict in a trial will do nothing for these young men, they will always be presumed guilty by a certain segment of society and wil find it difficult to secure employment, friends etc. If the remedies could heal the wounds I would be all for it, but it just does not seem to me to be equitable. I believe in a free press and what is wrong with having a free press that reports it after the verdict? Thanks PB.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:58:29 AM EST
    I would also argue that an extrapolation of Holmes' argument here would not be to villify the innocent so that the media could make exorbitant fees in advertising. This is a reverse case scenario for what Oliver was speaking to in my opinion. Better to let 1000 guilty go free to me means to err on the side of restraint and civility, no?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:07:46 AM EST
    Jlvngstn-- I'm all in favor of restraint and civility. The question is how to convince Rita/Sean/Nancy, et. al. to see the light.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:41:40 AM EST
    Posted by chew2 April 27, 2006 08:11 AM
    WSJ reports: "Wade Got Hookers for Duke--and Others?" http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000481.php
    This post exposes Chew2's complete lack of credibility. The article has nothing to do with Duke or the Duke Lacrosse issues....it references someone whose nickname is "Duke" who hired hookers. To post such an irrelevant and utterly unrelated article with the hope of creating a false bias is outright disingenous, despicable and pathetic.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:42:04 AM EST
    Posted by chew2 April 27, 2006 08:11 AM
    WSJ reports: "Wade Got Hookers for Duke--and Others?" http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000481.php
    This post exposes Chew2's complete lack of credibility. The article has nothing to do with Duke or the Duke Lacrosse issues....it references someone whose nickname is "Duke" who hired hookers. To post such an irrelevant and utterly unrelated article with the hope of creating a false bias is outright disingenous, despicable and pathetic.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:42:48 AM EST
    Posted by chew2 April 27, 2006 08:11 AM
    WSJ reports: "Wade Got Hookers for Duke--and Others?" http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000481.php
    This post exposes Chew2's complete lack of credibility. The article has nothing to do with Duke or the Duke Lacrosse issues....it references someone whose nickname is "Duke" who hired hookers. To post such an irrelevant and utterly unrelated article with the hope of creating a false bias is outright disingenous, despicable and pathetic, and the act of a loser.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:43:43 AM EST
    Posted by chew2 April 27, 2006 08:11 AM
    WSJ reports: "Wade Got Hookers for Duke--and Others?" http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000481.php
    This post exposes Chew2's complete lack of credibility. The article has nothing to do with Duke or the Duke Lacrosse issues....it references someone whose nickname is "Duke" who hired hookers. To post such an irrelevant and utterly unrelated article with the hope of creating a false bias is outright disingenous, despicable and pathetic, and a cowardly act of a loser.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:48:23 AM EST
    Sorry about the multiple posts...my interent connection had technical difficulties and I did not realize my post went through.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#52)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:50:51 AM EST
    Kalidoggie Chill out. It was a humorous but true headline. LOL! Not only that you're a slow reader. You should know who "Duke" is. TL knows who Randy "Duke" Cunningham is. He's the poster boy for the Republican congress sleaze machine, and pled guilty to selling congressional favors for big money from lobbyists and contractors.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#53)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:56:41 AM EST
    kellcat posted:
    IMHO, the second warrant mentions the broom comment, but it doesn't list the broom as something they are specifically searching for or seized. To me, that indicates that it was not considered to be all that significant.
    The second search warrant was not for the party house, it was for Ryan McFadyen's dorm room. While they did list the white shoe as something they were looking for, they would have to have thought he also may have taken he broom to his dorm room with him and still had it there three weeks later. Though, he might have thought it would look nice mounted on the wall next to his "The Shocker" poster.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#54)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:03:32 AM EST
    WSJ reports: "Wade Got Hookers for Duke--and Others?" http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000481.php
    I almost fell for it. Before I read the article I thought it was going to claim that one of the defense attorneys (isn't one named Wade?) had procured prostitutes for Duke admins. , though I didn't think the article was going to turn out to be true. I thought the post was funny.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#55)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:10:09 AM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    This post exposes Chew2's complete lack of credibility. The article has nothing to do with Duke or the Duke Lacrosse issues....it references someone whose nickname is "Duke" who hired hookers. To post such an irrelevant and utterly unrelated article with the hope of creating a false bias is outright disingenous, despicable and pathetic, and a cowardly act of a loser.
    Kali, Dude, chill. It was a joke.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#56)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:27:37 AM EST
    IMHO, I thought this observation was particularly funny:
    The article has nothing to do with Duke or the Duke Lacrosse issues..
    Ummmm. That was the point. LOL! However, I do think the misdeeds of Randy "Duke" Cunningham do deserve some attention. And maybe thru some great cosmic convergence which I can't yet forecast, "his hooker" story will connect with Duke university. I hear a lot of Duke alumni work in D.C.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:36:48 AM EST
    Was the word "broom" actually used in the alleged comment by the player? Or was merely the handle held up and referred to as "this" or "it" or something? The reason I ask is because it seems odd that if the comment was made by a lacrosse player, in a crowd of lacrosse players, in a house who's residents were lacrosse players, that the comment would be referring to a broom stick and not, say, well, a lacrosse stick. Maybe the girls just assumed the handle they saw had a broom on the other end? Did even they see the object itself? Stupid detail, I'm sure, and has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, but just something that occurred to me...

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:40:13 AM EST
    I'm reposting this, I asked this at the end of another post and really would like to know if anyone has info: When the DA said that 70% to 80% of rape cases don't have DNA evidence, how factual is that? Is the media even looking into that or are they just taking him at his word? It seem way too high to be true. I believe a large part of the % are date rapes, in that there is DNA but it is not useable because the accused is admitting there was sex but claiming the sex was consensual. I would like to know in the cases that a rape test was done in a timely manner, and the accused has denied that any sex took place, what are the chances that there would be not be DNA? If anyone has a source of DNA statistics, would you be kind enough to list a link? Assuming of course what the Father said about the broom is made up....

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:44:03 AM EST
    IMHO, I don't think it matters that they were searching the dorm or the house. If the police thought the broom was that important, they would have been looking for it. If they though MacFayden were dumb and evil enough to hold onto a shoe, he would be dumb enough to hold onto a broom. Serial killers hold on to trophies on the time. The broom comment was probably mentioned because it was rude, violent, and graphic, just like MacFayden's email was rude, violent, and graphic. Thus the LANGUAGE was deemed relevant, but not the OBJECT itself. Hey, I could be wrong about this. I think the broom is just a red herring thrown up by a well-meaning but clueless parent who does not even know where his daughter is but would like to present himself as a confidant. Unless there is a corroraborating report another source (like the AV, DA, SANE nurse), this doesn't seem too relevant.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:44:25 AM EST
    IMHO, I don't think it matters that they were searching the dorm or the house. If the police thought the broom was that important, they would have been looking for it. If they though MacFayden were dumb and evil enough to hold onto a shoe, he would be dumb enough to hold onto a broom. Serial killers hold onto trophies on the time. The broom comment was probably mentioned because it was rude, violent, and graphic, just like MacFayden's email was rude, violent, and graphic. Thus the LANGUAGE was deemed relevant, but not the OBJECT itself. Hey, I could be wrong about this. I think the broom is just a red herring thrown up by a well-meaning but clueless parent who does not even know where his daughter is but would like to present himself as a confidant. Unless there is a corroraborating report another source (like the AV, DA, SANE nurse), this doesn't seem too relevant.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:46:48 AM EST
    Either the DA at that time did not consider the broom to be the instrument of crime, or he had already obtained the broom through another source (landfill with the rest of the trash? a cooperating witness who we don't know about?) It could be either but I think the father (who we know has very imcomplete communication with his daughter) is just making stuff up.
    Agreed. Your reference to a cooperating witness got me thinking about the late night e-mail which was obtained (if I remember right) from a "confidential source." Has there been anything more on this? I'm figuring that the "confidential source" is one of the captains sharing material in the early stages of the investigation. I don't think the university would search e-mail accounts, but that's another possibility. Or, as you note, a co-operating witness that we don't know about. That seems like a real long shot.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#62)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:07:53 AM EST
    SUO asked:
    Was the word "broom" actually used in the alleged comment by the player? Or was merely the handle held up and referred to as "this" or "it" or something?
    From the March 27, 2006 search warrant - McFadyen's dorm:
    One male stated to the women"I'm gonna shove this up you" while holding a broom stick up in the air so they could see it.
    SUO posted:
    Maybe the girls just assumed the handle they saw had a broom on the other end? Did even they see the object itself?
    Stupid detail, I'm sure, and has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, but just something that occurred to me...
    I like the idea. The women should be asked if they are sure it was broom stick that was held up. The night of the party the women thought they were on baseball and track teams - a lacrosse stick wouldn't have entered their minds.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:13:31 AM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion posted:
    From the article: But the alleged third rapist had no mustache on the relevant night, if he ever had one, according to attorneys. They said photographs and eyewitnesses would prove their point.
    Maybe this is why the investigators were asking that reporter about the defense photos. They asked about the player(s) cropped out of the photo of the accuser being helped into Kim's car.
    Agreed. But this seems like this matter is something easily established: either the player who was ID'd with 90% certainty had a mustache or he didn't. Since white college men with mustaches are pretty rare (there weren't any in the posted photos of the Duke team), and given the defense attorney's claim, my question is what happens legally if the AV's 90% certain ID can be established as false? How does that affect the credibility of the other two IDs?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:17:17 AM EST
    chew2, wow. How to link (without skewing the website beyond recognition): -highlight your URL -copy the URL ("edit" then "copy") -highlight the word(s) in your comment that you want to be the link -click the "URL" button above the comment box -hold down the "Ctrl" button and type "v" -click "OK" -click "Preview" below the comment box before you click "Post"!!!

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#66)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:25:40 AM EST
    SUO Baby, Thanks. I tried using the url button and my link disappreared. So I stopped trying. Seems I have to associate it with some title text. I'll try that next time, and I can look like I'm html saavy!

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#67)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:33:20 AM EST
    kellcat posted:
    Either the DA at that time did not consider the broom to be the instrument of crime, or he had already obtained the broom through another source (landfill with the rest of the trash? a cooperating witness who we don't know about?) It could be either
    I agree with the first part, but not with this part:
    but I think the father (who we know has very imcomplete communication with his daughter) is just making stuff up.
    Have you seen/heard the father's interviews? I get the impression he is not lying, especially about the broom. If he is saying things that are not true, he could be being lied to.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#68)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:43:28 AM EST
    Looking at a photo lineup, the dancer told police the man in question "looks just like him without the mustache," the lawyers said, citing a written investigative report. But the alleged third rapist had no mustache on the relevant night, if he ever had one, according to attorneys. They said photographs and eyewitnesses would prove their point. _________________________________ Above is from the aricle. I am confused. If she says he looks just like him WITHOUT the mustache, isn't she agreeing the man had no mustache that night but obviously did in the picture they showed her?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#69)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:50:15 AM EST
    From the article:
    But the alleged third rapist had no mustache on the relevant night, if he ever had one, according to attorneys. They said photographs and eyewitnesses would prove their point.
    "according to attorneys" why does that phrase, in conjunction with this case, always give me pause? Using photoshop, I once put a mustache on my sister, though it's a little bit more work to take one off. kellcat posted:
    But this seems like this matter is something easily established:
    Yeah, I guess if the players had turned over their cameras and agreed to answer the investigators questions it would have been and the other two alleged rapist might have avoided arrest. If I was Nifong and the defense attorneys came to me with statements from the players and photos of the third alleged rapist without a moustache, I'd tell them to get the Hell out of my office. They want to present "evidence' now? Maybe Nifong will get all of their "exculpatory photos" thrown out. Who knows where they've been?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#70)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:57:30 AM EST
    Teresa posted:
    Above is from the aricle. I am confused. If she says he looks just like him WITHOUT the mustache, isn't she agreeing the man had no mustache that night but obviously did in the picture they showed her?
    That's how it sounded to me, until I read what the attorneys claim:
    But the alleged third rapist had no mustache on the relevant night, if he ever had one, according to attorneys.
    I know they are bold, but I don't think they would use the phrase "if he ever had one" if he has one in the photo she identified. The attorneys may not have access to that photo, but the player in question knows if he was photographed by the police with a moustache or not.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#71)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:06:54 PM EST
    Thanks imho. I thought of that later. She's saying the guy had a mustache but not in the pictures. I've read that 3 non-team members were there and Tucker says his inside source says 5 were there. Wonder if one of them had a mustache. My ex-husband could grow a mustache in just a few days. Since it was sprink break wonder if one of them didn't shave for a while. Kind of an Adam whatshisname from Gonzaga mustache. I think a lot of this case will depend on what photos, if any, the prosecution has from the cameras taken in the March 16 search. If she's making this up why complication the situation with mustaches?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#72)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:18:06 PM EST
    From Court TV's Lisa Bloom's blog: Is this any way to resolve a rape case? *disclaimer* for Gloria Allred haters: Lisa Bloom is Gloria's daughter

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#73)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    Craig, they thrive on this coverage and are making their networks millions, the only way to convince them is to legislate it away from them. Of course, we could ask every american to get a sense of decency and turn off those clowns but I do not think that is going to happen. Hannity hates attorneys save for the ones defending republicans...

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#74)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:01:31 PM EST
    Abrams Report April 27, 2006: Former FBI digital photo expert said if the average person altered the time stamps or sequence of the photos on a copy or even the original chip or disk from the camera, experts could detect it, but if someone knew what they were doing, they could change the time stamps and/or sequence of the photos without experts being able to detect the alterations. Abrams did not appear to be very happy with his answer.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#75)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:20:43 PM EST
    Here's a question for all you partygoers out there. This is something I'm not familiar with. Is it unusual for a large party involving strippers to be "male only" if the performers are dancing only? Just wondering. I was just wondering at the total lack of women at the party. Granted, I wouldn't care to go to a party with female strippers, but it is not unheard of for women (girlfriends etc) to be present at strip shows....is it? I'm just speculating that someone was anticipating sex with the performers and that's why no other women were around. Or am I way off base here?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#76)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:26:43 PM EST
    Someone should point out that if Gloria gets in the case, the accuser's life will be dissected in public 100 times more than it has been to date.
    Essence Magazine is reporting that the AV's mother has met with "famed" black "civil rights" attorney Willie Gary, and both she and the father hope their daughter will seek his advice and representation. The daughter has not yet met with Gary. The family was given Gary's name by Jesse Jackson. Accuser's Mother Meets With Famed Attorney ssence Magazine details the AV's fears and the parents concious efforts to discuss their daughter's tough past life, including her prior hospitalization and a rape when she was 17 or 18. (I wonder whether Willie Gary advised them to do this.) I didn't post the link since there seems to be a limit. But you can go to the essence Magazine website.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:33:20 PM EST
    JLvngstn wrote:
    I would also argue that an extrapolation of Holmes' argument here would not be to villify the innocent so that the media could make exorbitant fees in advertising. This is a reverse case scenario for what Oliver was speaking to in my opinion. Better to let 1000 guilty go free to me means to err on the side of restraint and civility, no?
    I don't see the idea of twelve murderers going free for every innocent man convicted as an example of restraint or civility, nor do I view the object of the free press as being a restrained or civil press. Under this system you propose where accused people's names aren't allowed to be published until after trial, do you further suggest that if these people aren't convicted that the restraint continue? In other words, do you view criminal trials, where the accuser is actually not a party, as binding on future accusations by the accuser for some weird reason? I'm just trying to see what's the point of this constraint other than to stop people from making public accusations except through some government controlled filtration system ... precisely the sort of social engineering experiment the first amendment was designed to reject.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:38:01 PM EST
    JLvngstn, I mean, what is it that you don't understand about "make no law."

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#79)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:40:42 PM EST
    "Racing back and forth to undisclosed locations with her two small children in tow, the young woman has not spoken to anyone from the press and will only call her parents. Sometimes, said the aunt, she doesn't even talk to her mother and father when she calls, but simply blurts out, "I'm okay, Mama," before quickly hanging up. The alleged victim is also so afraid that someone will find her, the aunt said, that she doesn't tell anyone where she is staying, and she won't provide any way for them to reach her by phone." Essence Magazine Nowhere to Turn

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#80)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:45:33 PM EST
    Family Defends Daughter's Painful Past The parents of the alleged victim talk to ESSENCE about their daughter's medical history, a previous sexual assault and why they believe their daughter isn't getting a fair shake

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#81)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:48:58 PM EST
    PB: I think the argument you present on the civility and restraint of letting 12 go free is a glass half empty/half full argument. It is less civil to me to incarcerate one innocent than to have 12 guilt roam free and I believe that was Holmes intent. Unless you have a link that demonstrates otherwise, which I would be more than willing to read. I was having the discussion with my wife last night regarding the freedom of the press and I kept going back to "make no law" so I understand it and it works against me in my own argument because I fully support it. to your point as to the releasing of the accused name post verdict, if the press were to release the names of the accused they would be held to stricter slander/libel laws, no? I am not interested in restricting the rights of the press to cover the stories before or after verdict, I am advocating that the names of the accused not be released until after the verdict. I am trying to determine what redeeming value releasing the names in any of these cases has to our society and I can find none. The media is making a fortune at the expense of the accused and can speculate wildly as to what happened painting a verdict in the minds of millions or idiot americans (i have no issue with the statement there, the lowest common denominator is used in advertising as a rule not an exception). The press will not be suffocated by the law as they can continue to report the news as they see fit sans the names and there is no irreparable harm. You have not addressed the remedies availed to the young men charged in this and I am curious as to what extent they can get their life back should they be found innocent. I am not asking for suppression, merely responsibility and civility.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:50:22 PM EST
    "Racing back and forth to undisclosed locations with her two small children in tow, the young woman has not spoken to anyone from the press and will only call her parents. Sometimes, said the aunt, she doesn't even talk to her mother and father when she calls, but simply blurts out, "I'm okay, Mama," before quickly hanging up. The alleged victim is also so afraid that someone will find her, the aunt said, that she doesn't tell anyone where she is staying, and she won't provide any way for them to reach her by phone."
    To be honest these are the actions of a liar. People usually do not hide if they stand for truth. I am sorry, no one is scaring this woman into fear, if she is telling the truth, then she need to stand up and go and get her justice.... The Rape Shield Laws are allowing this woman to exploit these 2 boys, and now it seems that their will be a 3rd... I sure hope these people dont settle, when she decides not to testify... Its woman like this that hurt the problem of rape.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:54:03 PM EST
    Lora, most guys do not bring wives and/or girlfriends with them to strip shows, especially if the guys are going with a group of their male friends. It's a "guy's night out" type of thing.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:59:20 PM EST
    As long as we are paying tribute:
    President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Holmes to the United States Supreme Court in 1902. A cornerstone of Holmes's judicial philosophy was his opinion that, "The life of the law has not been logic, but experience." He insisted that the court look at the facts in a changing society, instead of clinging to worn-out slogans and formulas. Holmes convinced people that the law should develop along with the society it serves. He exercised a deep influence on the law through his support of the doctrine of "judicial restraint" which urged judges to avoid letting their personal opinions affect their decisions.
    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#85)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:00:20 PM EST
    I don't blame her for hiding Supa. I would if every media outlet in the country was after me. It disturbs me that her family says she was raped before and it is disputed as to whether or not she went to the police. It's like she may be having some sort of flashbacks and is alleging these guys did what actually happened to her ten years ago. I really wish we knew the details of her medical report. As TL pointed out "consistent with rape" does not mean she was raped. I wonder just how severe, or not, her injuries were. Without very strong medical evidence this case will go nowhere.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#86)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:02:21 PM EST
    People usually do not hide if they stand for truth. I am sorry, no one is scaring this woman into fear, if she is telling the truth, then she need to stand up and go and get her justice....
    BWahahahahah!!! Tell that to all those brave lacrosse team members. And they haven't even any received any death threats yet, like the AV and her family. You seem so suspicious of strippers, like someone who had a bad experience in the past.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#87)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:04:30 PM EST
    suo, Ok thanks, that does make sense.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#88)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:10:08 PM EST
    Teresa
    it is disputed as to whether or not she went to the police.
    Well, both the parents and "other family members" confirm that she went to the police, and that she was treated for one year afterwards. Post traumatic flashbacks are a possibility, I suppose. But at this point that's pretty speculative. In any case, vaginal and anal bruising don't last 10 years.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#89)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:19:39 PM EST
    Lora, Woman on occasion go to strip clubs, sometimes with a BF or with GFs. Private strip parties are another matter. Even if no sex is going to be provided, the men might want to get down and be dirty, so it would be rare for them to want woman friends there. Besides men are always hoping for sex. That said. I've read claims by some college kids that it was common for both fraternities and even sororities to have had stripper parties. And of course at Duke, there was reportedly a party last year in which skimpily clad coeds were wrestling in oil at some fraternity party, and everybody was drunk.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#90)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:28:16 PM EST
    chew2, I see...then it's possible that sex with the strippers was hoped for, but not necessarily expected.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#91)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:33:49 PM EST
    Regarding the Essence story: "Nervous breakdown" is not a diagnosis. Being hospitalized for a week for severe depression is possible but unlikely without threat of suicide unless insurance coverage for NC college students is a lot more generous than I imagined. I would expect a diagnosis more like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, although the parents saying that she completed her course of medication doesn't make sense for any of those diagnoses, even a depression so severe that she required hospitalization. That she became drunk and stole that taxicab and took the police on a wild chase three years earlier is not a common theft or mere intoxication. It's beyond normal irrationality for a 23 year-old. It sounds like the beginning of the end of this case, unless there is physical evidence connecting anyone at that party to a rape. The family's story of a previous rape that went unreported is also troubling. The immediate thought is that she didn't report that first rape because it didn't happen. In any case, I don't know how much faith we can put in the family's version of events. Just like pointing out the lacrosse team members' criminal past is fair game in the press but not necessarily on point with this case, a woman's mental illness so severe that a year ago that she had to be hospitalized is soon going to be fodder for the talking heads, whether or not a rape occurred. This won't help Nifong's campaign.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#92)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:35:57 PM EST
    Lora, in my experience, most, but not, all, strippers that do private parties offer additional "services" for a price. That is not to say all, or any, even, attendees at such a party will avail themselves of the additional services.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:43:45 PM EST
    I don't blame her for hiding Supa. I would if every media outlet in the country was after me.
    If the media was telling lies about me, I would be very forward to go out there and prove to them that I am telling the truth. To me that makes no sense whatsoever.
    It disturbs me that her family says she was raped before and it is disputed as to whether or not she went to the police. It's like she may be having some sort of flashbacks and is alleging these guys did what actually happened to her ten years ago.
    Geesh. I must of been away for too long. When did we hear about her being raped before? Did she report it to the police? I smell more rats...I am sorry I have looked at the case alot, and I dont believe the accuser, and I think that she needs to go to jail. I do see the media spinning the facts now, and milking this case as much as they can. This new thing with the cabbie, is just media spin. Attorney Filan is trying to say that maybe Seligmann was raping her, while someone was using his cellphone, or that he was on the cp, while raping her? Alot of this makes no sense, and now people are reaching so far. Truth is that lying about rape is not good for anybody. And that is what we are learning today. This woman lied.
    I really wish we knew the details of her medical report. As TL pointed out "consistent with rape" does not mean she was raped. I wonder just how severe, or not, her injuries were. Without very strong medical evidence this case will go nowhere.
    Rape kits are very bias. I learned that the hard way in the KObe case. All the alledged victim needs to do is go in and say they hav been raped, and the medical report will say that.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#95)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:50:18 PM EST
    I would expect a diagnosis more like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia,
    Huh? Schizophrenia. Bipolar? Where the do you get that from? Yikes, you and Senator Frist on Terry Schiavo, making diagnoses from afar. At least Frist claims he's a doctor. Maybe she had PTSD from her basic training time in the Army?
    It's beyond normal irrationality for a 23 year-old.
    LOL!! She was drunk, and wanted to go home. The strip club owner said he got a cabbie who agreed to take her home. She couldn't wait. Impulsive. Joy riding!

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#96)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:51:21 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one:
    Lora, in my experience, most, but not, all, strippers that do private parties offer additional "services" for a price.
    Private parties? Even parties of two? ;)

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#97)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:51:35 PM EST
    supamike, go read "Family Defends Daughter's Painful Past" on Essence. chew2 posted the link above.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:56:02 PM EST
    imho, I have no experience with two person private parties with strippers. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#99)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:56:53 PM EST
    Here is a really good article tha sums it up for me. Duke Rape Case Raises Issue of Protecting Identity of Accused

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#100)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:56:58 PM EST
    supamike posted:
    If the media was telling lies about me, I would be very forward to go out there and prove to them that I am telling the truth. To me that makes no sense whatsoever.
    Are you talking about the lacrosse players? I know, they should be refuting that "Blue Wall" B.S.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#101)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:04:25 PM EST
    chew2, what mental illness would your insurance company hospitalize you for? Feeling a little down? Okay, we'll send chew2 to a nice place in the country for a week, apple blossom clinic, maybe. Pick some flowers and come back when you're ready to. The state of medical care in this country is atrocious. And you're saying that a college student is hospitalized for a "nervous breakdown" that isn't something serious? What I said was that I expect when we hear the diagnosis it will something that fits with being hospitalized. Like I said, unless she was threatening suicide or harm to others she is unlikely to be hospitalized for any mental condition unless she has something very, very serious. And threatening harm to self or others is also serious. Most depressions, without that threat, are treated with an anti-depressant, not hospitalization. That's why it strikes me that her mental illness is more than being a little mopey. Not looking at a video, but knowing what it takes to get hospitalized for a "nervous breakdown." I guess your comment on the car theft was a little joke, so maybe the rest was too?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#102)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:10:41 PM EST
    chew2, the last time you stole a car?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#103)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:12:34 PM EST
    You know, because you wanted to go home.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:18:05 PM EST
    Wow maybe this accuser has some serious mental issues. I think that is easy to see. And I dont expect her parents to admit it. Most parents stay in denial about things for a long time. BUt it seems to me, that the accuser in this case is not really close to her parents at this point and time. The father did not even know that she was stripping or doing this one-on-one escort thing. And right now, this case is more about political battles, and trying to save the Rape Shield laws. Becuz of this women alied, then many will use this as an example of why we need to change the law to protect the accused as well. I actually think that when someone accuses someone of a crime against them, they both should come forward for justice equally. Rape is a touchy issues for both the accused as well as the accuser, but for the longest when someone is accused of rape, it is the accused that is smeared all over the media. This puts accusers the right to destroy people reputations, just on their word. If this case preoves that, than many will take notice of false rape allegations

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#105)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:21:19 PM EST
    Bob, Did I say it wasn't serious. Did I say it was "mopey". No. I made no diagnosis. You did. Depression is one thing, Schizophrenia or BiPolar sounds like unjustified speculation.
    chew2, the last time you stole a car?
    I'm taking the 5th on that one. But I do know some joy riders.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:22:32 PM EST
    Tell that to all those brave lacrosse team members. And they haven't even any received any death threats yet, like the AV and her family. You seem so suspicious of strippers, like someone who had a bad experience in the past.
    HUH? None of this has to do with me. And I have never even met a stripper I dont think. Truth is that the players have done everything that has been asked of them. It is just put out there that these guys are not cooperating. But their lawyers have told you what their side of the story is, maybe it is not what you want to hear, but its their story, and it seems the are sticking to it pretty well.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:28:53 PM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion said:
    Are you talking about the lacrosse players? I know, they should be refuting that "Blue Wall" B.S.
    Me: to be honest the players have been really effective in getting their story out there. While they may not be able to come out in public to say anything, becuz their lawyers have obviously asked them to do so. But the DA is the one that is saying that they are not cooperating, but he doesnt say how... Bottom line...if they did not do it, they didnt do it...You seem to be calling it a "blue wall" until they blurt out that they raped the girl...And the truth, that they didnt... That does not make it a blue wall if you are telling the truth...YOu guys really need to stop that...Its a pure cop out...

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#108)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:43:13 PM EST
    Supamike, 1. You don't know if the AV lied. You just think so. 2. The AV is afraid for her safety. That's why she's hiding out. 3. The players have not done everything that has been asked of them, like answer questions. 4. If medical evidence supports a rape, perhaps a woman was raped. 92% of rape accusations are real (FBI).

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#109)
    by Teresa on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:45:26 PM EST
    Rape kits are very bias. I learned that the hard way in the KObe case. All the alledged victim needs to do is go in and say they hav been raped, and the medical report will say that
    That may be true in some cases but my point was we don't know what the report says in THIS case. Shouldn't we consider it before we say she's lying? By, the way, my niece that I spoke of earlier spent 6 days in a mental health hospital/clinic last June and came out with a diagnosis of "overwhelmed" and possibly bi-polar. Follow up with 2 different doctors resulted in her being taken off medication. The state we reside in paid for her stay based on the doctor's say so. So it may have been a serious medical issue and it may not have been.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#110)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:47:07 PM EST
    Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see if a diagnosis comes up. But like I said, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't at least depression with the threat of harm to self or others. And that kind of depression generally means a serious underlying mental illness. I'm not joking about a 23 year-old stealing a car for a "joyride." This kind of thing happens with teens but by the time you turn 23 if you're still stealing cars, it strongly suggests a problem with impulse control. There's a book by Jonathan Pincus called Base Instincts where he examined killers on death row. Most of them had measurable deficits in their frontal lobes that inhibited their ability to control impulses. They almost all had a history of physical and mental abuse, often sexual abuse. Often depressives have frontal lobe impairment, though it's a little different from the psycho killers. The brain takes longer to develop than what was previously thought, into one's early twenties. That's why soldiers in their teens are more likely to suffer PTSD than older men. Their brains aren't fully developed and thus can be more affected by violence. On the other hand, they can more easily be coerced into violence and so make great soldiers for the army. If you are 23 and stealing cars for joyrides you probably have some serious catching up to do in the front room of your noggin. If you suffered a rape and then you choose to support yourself by being a stripper it suggests, at the least, that you are not making good decisions.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#111)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:50:34 PM EST
    Comments closing and Chewy 2 skewed the page with a bad link, please remember to put your urls in html format. New post is coming momentarily.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#112)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:51:38 PM EST
    imho, I have no experience with two person private parties with strippers. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    LOL!

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#63)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:52:12 PM EST
    Megyn Kendall of Fox News is reporting that she spoke to the accuser's father who relayed to her that his daughter told him she was sodomized with a broomstick ...
    Are you sure it was Megyn and not one of the other Fox News blondes?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#113)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:52:50 PM EST
    supamike posted:
    Truth is that the players have done everything that has been asked of them. It is just put out there that these guys are not cooperating.
    They cancelled the interviews they had agreed to give the investigators. No player has talked to the investigators since March 16th despite Nifong's and the Duke administrators' pleas for them to come forward. abcnews.com:
    Nifong said today that the 46 members of the No. 2 ranked team are united in silence and refusing to talk with investigators probing the rape case.
    Duke University Provost Peter Lange said, "The students would be well-advised to come forward. They have chosen not to."
    supamike posted:
    if they did not do it, they didnt do it...You seem to be calling it a "blue wall" until they blurt out that they raped the girl...And the truth, that they didnt...
    That does not make it a blue wall if you are telling the truth...YOu guys really need to stop that...Its a pure cop out...
    A simple "I didn't do it and I didn't see anyone else do it", would be an improvement on their silence since March 16th.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#114)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:00:33 PM EST
    A simple "I didn't do it and I didn't see anyone else do it", would be an improvement on their silence since March 16th.
    That is what has been said, and if you hav enot heard that yet, its becuz you have put your fingers in your ears everytime they dont say what you want to hear.... Every rightminded person on this case has heard what has to be said by these players... With 46 guys all holding on to a lie for this long period is just not be real here. By now one guy would of cracked. This is evidence that all of them are telling the truth. They even said that they gave the wrong names to get the stripper, they agreed that their was underage drinking, So no one has anymore to give you. They have said nothing happened like rape at that party. You can tell the reaction of these buys, by the strategy of their lawyers. Lawyers came right out and did not even leave open whether consentaul sex happened. That should tell you a whole lot right there. They are saying NOTHING! happened at all. No sex, no rape...Period!! Most lawyers would not go out with their whole hand like they have, in they did not belive their clients. You want to claim some "white boy" blue wall that men seem to have, that it is just bogus, is actually kind of funny to me.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#115)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:15:01 PM EST
    Imho stated... A simple "I didn't do it and I didn't see anyone else do it", would be an improvement on their silence since March 16th. To which supamike replied...
    That is what has been said, and if you hav enot heard that yet, its becuz you have put your fingers in your ears everytime they dont say what you want to hear....
    When did the remaining 43 team members sit down with police investigators and give their statements?

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#116)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:19:02 PM EST
    New thread is here.

    Re: Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick (none / 0) (#93)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:24:06 PM EST
    Honor Missing at Duke Ray McNulty - Scripps Howard News Service
    Honorable behavior, though, is a choice. Sometimes, it's a difficult choice, because doing what's right isn't always easy, or convenient, or popular. Sometimes, it's a matter of putting principle before people - even your friends, even yourself.
    Duke Accuser's Father: Assault by Broomstick | 116 comments (116 topical)