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Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:58:00 PM EST
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Bruce Schneier has an excellent article up at Wired, The Eternal Value of Privacy, examining security and privacy in the context of the NSA warrantless surveillance program.

After examining privacy rights, and the intent of the framers of the Constitution in this regard, he writes:

How many of us have paused during conversation in the past four-and-a-half years, suddenly aware that we might be eavesdropped on? Probably it was a phone conversation, although maybe it was an e-mail or instant-message exchange or a conversation in a public place. Maybe the topic was terrorism, or politics, or Islam. We stop suddenly, momentarily afraid that our words might be taken out of context, then we laugh at our paranoia and go on. But our demeanor has changed, and our words are subtly altered.

This is the loss of freedom we face when our privacy is taken from us. This is life in former East Germany, or life in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. And it's our future as we allow an ever-intrusive eye into our personal, private lives.

Also on the NSA surveillance, Patriot Daily asks what is the real purpose behind Bush's NSA surveillance program?

Marty Lederman at Balkinization writes about General Michael Hayden and Article II.

And Cato reprints one of its classics, Don't Militarize Our Borders.

< Salon Interviews Truthout Re: Partial Apology Over Rove Article | FBI Saturday Night Raid on Rep. William Jefferson's Office >

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    Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty | 24 comments (24 topical)
    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#1)
    by johnny6644 on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:27:40 PM EST
    Just the other day, at lunch, my friend was holding aloft USA Today and getting angrier and angrier. Suddenly he stopped speaking and looked around. Then he spoke again, but in a whisper. I interrupted him. "Do you realize that you were afraid to speak out loud," I asked him. "See what we've come to?"

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#2)
    by jondee on Sat May 20, 2006 at 11:24:51 PM EST
    More government on the way to "less government", less freedom in order to protect "our freedoms", more wars in order to "make us safe"; how much longer before they start printing up the Ignorance is Strength bumperstickers?

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sun May 21, 2006 at 08:10:59 AM EST
    Above all there was fear, fear of today, fear of tomorrow, fear of our neighbors, and fear of ourselves. ... It was the old, old story of the sacrificial lamb. What about those of us who knew better, we who knew the words were lies and worse than lies? Why did we sit silent? Why did we take part? Because we loved our country. What difference does it make if a few political extremists lose their rights? What difference does it make if a few racial minorities lose their rights? ... And history tells how well we succeeded, Your Honor. We succeeded beyond out wildest dreams. ... And then, one day we looked around and found that we were in an even more terrible danger. The ritual begun in this courtroom swept over the land like a raging, roaring disease. What was going to be a "passing phase" had become the way of life. More...


    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#4)
    by profmarcus on Sun May 21, 2006 at 08:17:40 AM EST
    i came to the conclusion a number of years ago, after reading over the aclu's documentation on the echelon project, that all of my electronic communications and transactions were subject to being logged and data-mined... i am quite certain this has been nsa s.o.p. for many years and, true to the 5-country nature of echelon, when the u.s. was at risk of illegal activity within its own borders, it would simply ask another country to do the dirty work and then pass the information back... the only difference between then and now is that bush is claiming, through the twin chimeras of the aumf and the unitary executive, that he can dispense with the illusion of legality and simply act directly without resorting to the "pass-through" strategem... it is only through the sheer grace of god that, thanks to conscientious leakers, we are finding out about this pervasive and nefarious practice... otherwise, it would have remained shrouded in secrecy as it has since the late 1940's... Visit my blog: And, yes, I DO take it personally

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sun May 21, 2006 at 08:26:35 AM EST
    Maybe we didn't know the details. But if we didn't know, it was because we didn't want to know.
    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun May 21, 2006 at 08:52:57 AM EST
    "If only the Furher knew!"

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sun May 21, 2006 at 09:58:57 AM EST
    Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans -- born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage, and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. ... Now the trumpet summons us again -- not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need -- not as a call to battle, though embattled we are -- but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation," a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself. More...

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sun May 21, 2006 at 10:06:20 AM EST
    In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course.
    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Sun May 21, 2006 at 11:50:11 AM EST
    As Public Enemy rapped almost twenty years ago...Fight The Power!

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#10)
    by azbballfan on Mon May 22, 2006 at 12:10:46 AM EST
    edger, Thanks for the link. Does anyone else think the time is ripe for a dramatic leader to rise up and reinvigorate our country? I noticed six years ago that I became much more careful about my personal telephone and electronic communication. It came from the aura of intimidation and universal power of the then Republican party. I will openly admit that at first I was enthralled and excited by what we found out about President Clinton's personal life through unwarranted and unnecessary invasion of his privacy. Then, over the course of the investigation, I realized that the media frenzy about the case and the complete disregard for the invasion of his privacy for some silly 'right for the people to know' spelled pending doom for all of our personal liberties. My father is a 30 years retired, but at one time had one of the highest security clearances available to private citizens. He was an engineer and was careful only to let me know about technologies available after they had been declassified and made relatively public. I'm afraid to talk to him on the phone. Not only about politics, anything. It's affected my life significantly and caused some deep scars. I know for certain that I'm in a file somewhere. I have no idea what's in it. Depending who has the keys to access, I could be painted out to be a potential traitor based upon what I read on the internet. It's affected all my job related decisions and some of my personal decisions. I've lost faith and hope in our country.

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 08:21:07 AM EST
    I, as well, have a friend that is afraid to speak. She is married to a brown person, from "over there". No matter that he is a highly skilled, sought after physician. No matter that he has been here for over twenty years. No matter that he is Catholic... I am sometimes amused at the charges of "rage! against all things Bush". I speak only for myself - what I feel is not rage, but it does, on occasion, manifest itself in a very similar way. I wonder, is it my fault? I believed every word of the Pledge I swore every morning. I stand, with hand over heart, singing the Anthem (sometimes, all by myself) at football games. I watched in tearful,silent wonder, the first plane that I saw after 9/11. I LOVE my country, and would defend her to (and with) the last pitchfork. Is it my own fault that my heart is broken? Did I believe too much in " the land of the free and the home of the brave"? And so, it is not with rage that I watch the desecration of all that America once was... For my Country, I grieve

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Mon May 22, 2006 at 08:38:04 AM EST
    azbballfan: Does anyone else think the time is ripe for a dramatic leader to rise up and reinvigorate our country? ... I've lost faith and hope in our country. I think that many in Germany in the 1930's and 40's, felt the same way, and many in Poland felt similarly during their long domination by the Soviet Union. But look at Germany today. After suffering through the results of the mess that Hitler made of their country they have proved themselves one of the most advanced nation on earth in many ways, not the least of which are their respect for each other, other peoples, their incredible contributions in literature, in philosospy and in the sciences. And look at Poland today. The solidarity movement was one of the best examples of what seemed to be powerless and despairing people rising up and throwing off the darkness that had enveloped their country. There are many other examples throughout history. We don't really have to look much farther back than 1946 and The Battle of Athens, Tennessee to find people refusing to give in:
    On August 1-2, 1946, some Americans, brutalized by their county government, used armed force as a last resort to overturn it. These Americans wanted honest open elections. For years they had asked for state or federal election monitors to prevent vote fraud (forged ballots, secret ballot counts and intimidation by armed sheriff's deputies) by the local political boss. They got no help. These Americans' absolute refusal to knuckle under had been hardened by service in World War II. Having fought to free other countries from murderous regimes, they rejected vicious abuse by their county government.
    While I understand and symapthize with how you feel azbballfan, I suspect that this rule by predatory reptiles that America is going through is, in some senses, perhaps something that happened because people had become too comfortable living in their consumer paradise hat they had slowly forgotten how to even notice the signs when tyranny starts to slowly creep back in while everyone is looking the other way, or distracted by the promises and the trappings of material success. But I also think that they are waking up, all across the country, and when they start to roar it will cause a wind more terrible than Katrina, and will be heard around the world.
    In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. --John F. Kennedy
    The sun rises in the morning and lights the day. But the sun also sets in the evening and darkness blankets the earth. Both light and darkness depend on the other for their existence.

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 09:17:38 AM EST
    Posted by johnny6644 May 20, 2006 10:27 PM Just the other day, at lunch, my friend was holding aloft USA Today and getting angrier and angrier. Suddenly he stopped speaking and looked around. Then he spoke again, but in a whisper. I interrupted him. "Do you realize that you were afraid to speak out loud," I asked him. "See what we've come to?"
    Wow! There must be thousands of cases by now of innocent citizens being arrested for speaking against the Bush administration, Can you provide any examples? Were the Dixie Chicks ever released from the Gulag?

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Mon May 22, 2006 at 10:05:29 AM EST
    jrt-
    Wow! There must be thousands of cases by now of innocent citizens being arrested for speaking against the Bush administration, Can you provide any examples?
    because of your faith in the WH and willingness to allow the decimation of the constitution the answer is no. The numerous examples of innocent citizens arrested for speaking against the Bush administration is now classified super duper tippity top secret. Not even their mothers know. Thanks JRT for your part in the 'un' back into unamerican.

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Mon May 22, 2006 at 10:05:45 AM EST
    Americans Pay Price for Speaking Out: Dissenters Face Job Loss, Arrest, Threats but Activists Not Stopped by Backlash Free Speech Under Fire: The ACLU Challenge to "Protest Zones":
    • Phoenix, Arizona On September 27, 2002
    • Stockton, California On August 23, 2002
    • Evansville, Indiana On February 6, 2002
    • Kalamazoo, Michigan On March 27, 2001
    • St. Louis, Missouri On November 4, 2002
    • Trenton, New Jersey On September 22, 2002
    • Albuquerque, New Mexico On April 29, 2002
    • Neville Island, Pennsylvania On September 2, 2002
    • Columbia, South Carolina On October 24, 2002
    • Houston, Texas In September 2002
    • Richmond, Virginia On June 23, 2003
    • Washington, D.C. On June 17, 2003
    FREEDOM UNDER FIRE: Dissent in Post-9/11 America (PDF): 1 Introduction 2 In the Streets 5 On Campus 7 In the Mall 8 On the Waterfront 8 On the Sidewalks 10 In the Park 11 In the Public Square 11 At Presidential Appearances 13 At Vice-Presidential Appearances 14 On Military Bases 14 In the Schools 16 In the Marketplace 17 Under Surveillance 17 At the Airport 18 Conclusion

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 10:37:41 AM EST
    Yes, there are some arrests at protests that probably should not have happened, but these are by local cops who are certainly not following orders from the White House. I know that many of these arrests happened in Chicago, a city ruled very corruptly by Democrats for decades. The idea that someone talking politics in a restaurant is in some kind of danger is ridiculous.

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Mon May 22, 2006 at 10:51:37 AM EST
    Florida Green Fights Efforts to Limit Free Speech - Posted Aug 11, 2005:
    Standing at Second Ave N and Second Street, the group portrayed Saturday night's arrests as part of a broader effort to stifle dissent in favor of business interests and a squeaky clean downtown image. "We will not give up the public sidewalks that are paid for by all of the citizens of St. Petersburg," Winnie Foster said, fanning herself with a copy of the Constitution. A few motorists were not impressed. "Losers," one man called out. On the balcony of Dish, a BayWalk restaurant, several children stood with an adult and called out, "George Bush. George Bush."
    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Mon May 22, 2006 at 10:53:54 AM EST
    but these are by local cops who are certainly not following orders from the White House.
    Do you also think that the 1800 arrested at the NYC RNC convention were because of a few bad apple cops? You are in denial

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 11:01:33 AM EST
    Yes, there are some arrests at protests that probably should not have happened, but these are by local cops who are certainly not following orders from the White House.
    How precious! The 'few bad apples' meme morphs yet again. Hell, in TX they told people not to look when the motorcade went by. bushco was the one that set up cages as free speech zones:
    The local police, at the Secret Service's behest, set up a "designated free-speech zone" on a baseball field surrounded by a chain-link fence a third of a mile from the location of Bush's speech.
    The police cleared the path of the motorcade of all critical signs, but folks with pro-Bush signs were permitted to line the president's path. Neel refused to go to the designated area and was arrested for disorderly conduct; the police also confiscated his sign.
    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 12:31:15 PM EST
    Posted by Squeaky May 22, 2006 11:53 AM but these are by local cops who are certainly not following orders from the White House. Do you also think that the 1800 arrested at the NYC RNC convention were because of a few bad apple cops? You are in denial
    You are straying from my point- How many of the 1800 were discussing politics in a restaurant? I don't agree with mass arrests of orderly protestors if that is what they were, but you cannot stretch that into saying that ordinary citizens are in danger of being arrested for private conversations. That is just plain hysteria.

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#21)
    by Sailor on Mon May 22, 2006 at 12:38:48 PM EST
    uhh, JRT just moved the goal posts. Remember when JRT said:
    Yes, there are some arrests at protests that probably should not have happened, but these are by local cops
    Then several instances, with attributions, were supplied to show it is a wh directive, now he expects us to suddenly forget 4 posts above and think the conversation was about:
    you cannot stretch that into saying that ordinary citizens are in danger of being arrested for private conversations
    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Mon May 22, 2006 at 12:45:14 PM EST
    Hysteria has its uses. The current chump wouldnt be in office without hysteria. Think "terror alerts" and "September the Eleventh", "The WOT, terror, terrorist, terrorism" references inumerable in practically every speech Bush has given since he entered office.

    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Mon May 22, 2006 at 12:48:33 PM EST
    That is just plain hysteria.
    And [...], worse than any of them because he knew what they were, and he went along with them. [...]: Who made his life excrement, because he walked with them. [...]


    Re: Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sun May 28, 2006 at 07:45:13 AM EST
    Flew in to Miami Beach, BOAC,
    Far too tired to go to bed.
    Telephoned my friends just to say hello
    The Feds recorded everything we said. I'm back in the USSA The home of freedom they say, boy Back in the USSA Was it so long ago that the USSR disintegrated? A mere 15 years, yet it seems Americans have forgotten their enthusiasm for criticizing the Soviet state for its close scrutiny of people's lives. It was revealed after the collapse of the USSR that Soviet secret police, and the not-so-secret KGB (I actually got to visit their headquarters in 1982, on Moscow's Lubyanka Street), had kept detailed records of the telephone and correspondence activities of Soviet citizens. Americans were among the most vocal of the smug Westerners to condemn that kind of infringement on personal liberty. And it gave a further boost to their already inflamed view that they were the bestest people in the whole world. Now that it has been revealed that they are manipulated and managed and scrutinized at least as much as the former Soviet republics, with elections that are just about as fair, many simply shrug. Many more actually seem to think it's a good idea.


    Privacy vs. Tyranny and Security vs. Liberty | 24 comments (24 topical)