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Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/11

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Trials
Posted on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:07:34 PM EST
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And the hits, they just keep coming. The latest is Osama bin Laden's newest audio tape in which he says Zacarias Moussaoui was not a part of 9/11.

"He had no connection at all with Sept. 11," the speaker, claiming to be bin Laden, said in the tape posted on the Internet. "I am the one in charge of the 19 brothers and I never assigned brother Zacarias to be with them in that mission," he said, referring to the 19 hijackers.

The al-Qaida chief said the Sept. 11 hijackers were divided into two groups, "pilots and assistants." "Since Zacarias Moussaoui was still learning how to fly, he wasn't No. 20 in the group, as your government has claimed," bin Laden said. "It knows this very well," he added. Bin Laden said Moussaoui's confession -- that he helped plan the attacks -- was "void," calling it the result of "pressures exercised against him during four and a half years" in U.S. prison.

Will Moussaoui's lawyers ask for a new trial based on newly discovered evidence showing he's innocent? Is it admissible, if authenticated? Would it have made any difference to the jury? Does anyone care any more about Moussaoui, or has he already become a footnote in 9/11 history now that he is languishing at Supermax?

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    • Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/11 | 61 comments (61 topical)
    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:17:40 PM EST
    Is it more likely that 1. Osama Bin Laden is an honest witness or 2. Osama Bin Laden is playing with our heads to try to weaken his enemy George W. Bush?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:28:50 PM EST
    Why would you put any stock in what Bin Laden says?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:30:09 PM EST
    How can you doubt that paragon of virtue, OBL? (sarcasm alert)

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:35:50 PM EST
    I didn't think watching Court TV was allowed under Islamic law. Can't you just see him yelling at the TV over the verdict, the same way we did with OJ Simpson?! In any event, he doesn't seem to be residing in a cave completely cut off from the outside world now, does he?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#6)
    by Sailor on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:52:31 PM EST
    so anyone keeping track of how many folks bushco has said was the '20th' hijacker? perhaps it's the same number that bushco claims it has 'captured the #2 leader of AQ.' actually, OBL has a much better track record for 'truthiness' than bushco has. e.g.
    "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - G.W. Bush, 9/13/01 "I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'" - G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI "...Secondly, he is not escaping us. - Bush, 12/28/01, as reported on official White House site. "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:58:02 PM EST
    I had thought "everyone" had decided that it wasn't that he was the 20th or 200th hijacker, but that he knew enough about it and should have told the Feds, but lied instead and that is why he must die die die. If so, then it really doesn't matter what OBL/UBL says.... (By everyone I mainly mean Glenn Reynolds and his merry band of idiots.)

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Tue May 23, 2006 at 04:09:06 PM EST
    It is more damaging when an enemy speaks the obvious truth, in this case, than when he lies. The court of world opinion is already laughing at the joke of the trial and conviction. OBL just adding a finishing touch. In terms of world opinion OBL's credibility is way ahead of our dear leader. Incredible how the chimp could squander all that good will so quickly.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Tue May 23, 2006 at 04:45:29 PM EST
    Can't this cat get on the CD bandwagon already? Tapes are so...yesterday. But seriously, we're good at nabbing those NOT involved. Osama, hey, Dubya said he doesn't really think about him that much. One question: what DOES he really think about? Fishing? Laura in a bodysuit? Beer? Hello? Are these on? Hmm. I guess they aren't.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 23, 2006 at 04:50:38 PM EST
    Sailor writes:
    actually, OBL has a much better track record for 'truthiness' than bushco has
    That is just so you.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#11)
    by Al on Tue May 23, 2006 at 04:55:32 PM EST
    Dadler:
    Dubya said he doesn't really think about him that much. One question: what DOES he really think about? Fishing? Laura in a bodysuit? Beer?
    The answer is (a) fishing. His best moment as president, apparently, is when he caught a big perch in his lake.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#12)
    by Dadler on Tue May 23, 2006 at 04:57:16 PM EST
    Al, That's JUST what I was thinking. Thanks for the link.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dusty on Tue May 23, 2006 at 06:11:59 PM EST
    Moussaoui,the man is so delusional who knows what he did or did not do.. Then he wanted to change his plea..I damn near bit a hole in my lip to keep from laughing..did he think it was a broadway play and the run was over? Bin Laden, he needs to worry about draggin his kidney dialysis machine around in those mt ranges he lives in.I think he figured he would of been caught by now, and really doesn't have a plan to fall back on since our wondeful federal employees can't find him to save their collective ass.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 23, 2006 at 07:10:19 PM EST
    Moosey was never charged with "being the 20th hijacker", but he did make it clear that he would kill any American at anytime and he wished that more would have died on 9/11. He deserves to rot in Florence for the rest of his disgusting life. You people actually hate Bush more than him, don't you? More than OBL? How about Hitler?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dadler on Tue May 23, 2006 at 07:42:59 PM EST
    JRT, Believe it or not, there ARE people on the planet (perhaps you aren't one of them) who are able to dislike the administration, detest Moussaoui, loathe Hitler and Osama and Stalin and Mao and King Leopold and Ghengis Khan and on and on and STILL be able to rationally and critically assess the process and means by which we mete out "justice". With that I'll bid you a polite good night.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#16)
    by jondee on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:39:27 PM EST
    You can get endless mileage out of the "wid 'r agin us" paradigm. As long as theres Bin Ladens, Moussaouis, Jeffry Dahmers in the world, and Bush is agin 'em, we're supposed to believe he's a he-ro and right up there with Lincoln and FDR. Dont matter who many people go broke trying to pay their medical bills; how many old men eat out of garbage cans; how much Bush's cronies pilfer from the till; how many apocalyptic religious bigots are given statesmen status; how many jobs get outsourced: Bush is always gonna be the the good wrassler who's gonna git the bad wrassler 'n anybody who says different must be a terrorist lover.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:53:27 PM EST
    Moosey was never charged with "being the 20th hijacker"
    clever parsing, of course he wasn't charged with it, they had no grounds. But he was accused of it, over and over. Just google Moussaoui "20th hijacker" trial ashcroft.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#18)
    by peacrevol on Wed May 24, 2006 at 06:45:41 AM EST
    Well it sounds like OBL has some good information. We should go get him and bring him in as a whitness for the defense in the next trial. Perhaps it's time to make him a priority. In early 04 they put a navy seal in charge of his search and apparently he got pretty close and then OBL vanished into thin air.
    Will Moussaoui's lawyers ask for a new trial based on newly discovered evidence showing he's innocent? Is it admissible, if authenticated?
    I truly doubt that a tape is admissable in any way b/c anybody can record themselves and pretend to be someone. Audio analyses could ambiguously suggest whether it's really him or not, but I still doubt that's sufficient.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:05:12 AM EST
    Why would you put any stock in what Bin Laden says? Of course not. The last thing anyone would want to do is put any stock in what he says. That would be much too dangerous to the whole propaganda machine, since if you do you find yourself caught in the leg hold trap of your own complicity as Bin Laden's words put the lie to the entirety of bushco justifications for the so-called "war on terror".
    "The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced." "I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy." "The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond." "And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children."
    "We've entered a great ideological conflict we did nothing to invite." George W. Bush State of the Union, Jan. 31,2006 Right George, whatever you say...

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:24:51 AM EST
    Posted by Sailor May 23, 2006 09:53 PM Moosey was never charged with "being the 20th hijacker" clever parsing, of course he wasn't charged with it, they had no grounds. But he was accused of it, over and over. Just google Moussaoui "20th hijacker" trial ashcroft.
    Given the flight training it seemed likely that he was, but that is not what he was convicted or charged with.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 07:55:09 AM EST
    Sailor... actually, OBL has a much better track record for 'truthiness' than bushco has. That's the rub here... many people (like you) hate our president so much, they actually put this scum bag above him. That speaks volumes about you & them! Squeaky.... In terms of world opinion OBL's credibility is way ahead of our dear leader. Don't confuse the "World" with all the liberal moonbats please. Dadler.... Believe it or not, there ARE people on the planet ...who are able to dislike the administration, ....and STILL be able to rationally and critically assess the process and means by which we mete out "justice". "Dislike" the administration? I dislike the administration. You all HATE it! .... And in fact hate it so much that you side with the likes of OBL! Hate it so much you accuse our own military personal of intentionally killing civilians. Hate it so much that you look for anything that would make it look bad... even to the extreme of making things up (aka Dan Rather)... No Dadler dude... there is a HUGE difference between "dislike" and what the liberal left actually does. Jondee... Your post is yet another example of the tireless effort of the libs to lay everything that ever happend at GW's feet. Like nobody ever struggled to pay their medical bills before 2001... Nobody ate of of garbage cans... No adminnistration 'cronies' ever profited... No jobs were ever outsourced...etc..etc..blah..blah. Yeah..it's ALL GW's fault. Billy Boy NEVER did any of that... LOL

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:07:31 AM EST
    Too messed up to work with his lawyers to coordinate mounting a proper defence for himself. Too nutty to agree to an insanity plea, Moussauoi was the perfect scapegoat with his delusional claims and fantasizing of a major role in Al-Qaeda. Incapable mentally, and obviously ill, he never had a chance, and the saddest part of it all is that there will always be a part of America that perhaps is just as ill as Moussaoui, and will delude themselves that some kind of justice, retribution, and payback has been achieved... "We've entered a great ideological conflict we did nothing to invite."

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#23)
    by peacrevol on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:32:32 AM EST
    I come from a place where if someone speaks of your brother the way mosussaui spoke of all americans, anyone within earshot would be ready to smoke his a$$. So pi$$ on him...whether he was truly supposed to be involved on 9-11 or not. If he knew about it and told nobody, which is the case, he should rot in prison, which he will.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#24)
    by John Mann on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:32:51 AM EST
    I dislike the administration. You all HATE it! .... And in fact hate it so much that you side with the likes of OBL!
    Easy, BB, easy. You're going to have a coronary. Settle down and consider the fact that Mr. Bush is a proven liar and a man who is responsible for far more deaths, civilian and otherwise, than Mr. bin Laden. The lies of Mr. Bush, President and Christian, would fill a good-sized book, while Mr. bin Laden, terrorist, has apparently never lied to us. Certainly no decent person would condone Mr. bin Laden's murder of civilians, and it astonishes me that decent people line up, eyes glazed over, to vigorously defend a dreadful human being like Mr. Bush and his cadre of lowlifes.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Wed May 24, 2006 at 08:38:16 AM EST
    I dislike the administration. You all HATE it! .... And in fact hate it so much that you side with the likes of OBL! Hate it so much you accuse our own military personal of intentionally killing civilians. Hate it so much that you look for anything that would make it look bad... even to the extreme of making things up (aka Dan Rather)... No Dadler dude... there is a HUGE difference between "dislike" and what the liberal left actually does.
    BB, Have you heard of the christian phrase, "Love your enemies?" Or "you can hate the sin, but still love the sinner?" I don't hate president Bush, but I disagree and dislike exremely (you can substitute "hate" here), the things he stands for and who he represents. I don't believe he represents you or I. I believe he represents big money interests. HE has no understanding nor does he care about the history of this country as a democracy nor the ideals we are all striving to achieve. He only cares about power and maintaining that power as the status quo. And, to top it off, even with what he stands for, he is an ineffective leader. He has bungled the war on terror, Iraq, the economy, the environment, etc. I admit, it takes some effort to separate the sinner from the sin here, but I try hard to do just that. I don't hate the President and I don't hate righties, and I don't hate you. We disagree about many things. We believe passionately that each of us is right and the other sides ideas are not only wrong, but they are actually dangerous. This seems an almost insurmountable gulf to be crossed between us to reach some sort of compromise or consensus. With some hope and prayers, we can only trust that democracy and our constitution will lead to us to that and someday we might actually have peace all over the world. This is not likely, I realize, but I pray for that day. I don't hate, because hate would get in the way of a dream for peace. On another note, OBL has earned a lot of respect from many in the intelligence community. They don't defend him, nor do they love him, but they respect him as a leader of a movement. They would kill him in a moments notice if they had an opportunity, but they listen closely to what he says, because they respect him as a worthy enemy and rival. I hate what OBL stands for also. With the same effort as our President, I try to separate the sin from the sinner. Hate will eat you up as will anger. You are an angry man, I've said before. Don't let it eat you up, if it hasn't already.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 09:57:46 AM EST
    John Mann Settle down and consider the fact that Mr. Bush is a proven liar In your mind...maybe? I'll tell you what I have told others here...please look up the word "liar" and get back to me. The actual "proven" liar was Mr. Clinton! while Mr. bin Laden, terrorist, has apparently never lied to us Thanks for proving my point. You actually do hold him in higher esteem! it astonishes me that decent people line up, eyes glazed over, to vigorously defend a dreadful human being like Mr. Bush I'm not a Bush fan,... however, when the day comes that I'd put someone like OBL above our president...I'll resign my citizenship! I'm equally astonished by people like you that hate him so much... they actually root for OBL & his band of killers! Peaches... Good post! But you are (unfortunately) not on par with most here. You actually think about what you say. I'm not an angry guy... I'm actually very happy. I do however get angry when I see what some people on here say. They are so blined by hate they can't think logically. They won't even have a discussion and are too busy calling names. It just amazes me how so quickly they (for example) jump on our military.... (tried & convicted) before the facts are in. TL posts something and it's gospel! And this by the same people that will scream the loudest about being innocent until proven guilty for every single guy at Abu Graib! How is it EVERYBODY gets the benefit of the doubt but our own Government? Like I said...I'm not a big Bush fan. I don't see him any worse than say, Bill Clinton. I beleive he is trying to do the right thing. Yes, I too am very disappointed in some of the things he's done (nobody being perfect) but I can't see the outright hate in blaming him for everything from, our freindship with the Saudis to the immigration problem... both of which existed long before GW was here! I truly belive (being an ex liberal and still a registered Democrat) that the liberal left is ruining this country by doing some of the things I mention above. That's my main concern here (GW's shorcomings aside) and I'd by happy to continue that conversation with you at any time.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#27)
    by HK on Wed May 24, 2006 at 10:48:48 AM EST
    BB, I don't think Peaches is unusual among us. I applaud his well-reasoned and eloquent post. And although I am an Atheist, I too try to separate the sin from the sinner and have hopes for peace. But I also think that scrutinising our leaders is a valid and important thing to do. We should not blindly follow and we should not settle for 'the lesser evil'. As far as I'm concerned, there is no selective getting the benefit of the doubt. I always research what I read and hear and try to draw my own conclusions. But governments are elected by us and have a responsibility to prove that what they do is right and honourable. I seek my own answers, but the burden with proof in this instance lies with them.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#28)
    by Peaches on Wed May 24, 2006 at 10:56:12 AM EST
    BB, One of the gulfs between us is that you believe in our military. I don't. Now, when I say that, I think your first reaction will be that I am against veterans or I don't respect the job our soldiers do. This just isn't true. I believe that the US military, as an isntitution exists to wage war and that means killing and creating more opportunities for killing. This is, in my opinion, the definition of evil. The military is also controlled by money. It has become so massive it exists independently of our democracy and almost outside of its control. The money involved with contracts mean pressure upon politicians is too great to cut any funding and a military that large has to find opportunities for war to justify its existence. America was a better country when the military was much smaller as a percentage of our overall economy. As it is, it is now likelyu the most powerful economic sector in our economy. The debt required to support this behemoth is likely more of a threat to the future of our government than any military threat we can find in the world. I say this knowing you will disagree with me, perhaps fervently. But, I think violent solutions to conflict always come with a caveat for the creation of more violence, as evidenced by edger's link to Putin's comments about the comrade wolf on another thread today. We are creating enemies just by having such a large military and this benfits our military and justifies even greater expansion. Also, because of our military superiority we have forced these enemies to use tactics that fall outside the normal norms for conflict. They cannot fight us or face us on the battlefield, because this would be folly. They would be destroyed instantly. Evolutionary trends eliminate poor strategies. A good strategy for our enemies is to blend in with civilian populations. This strategy survives and is exploited. Thus, our military kills even more civilians creating even more enemies as we lose the battle of hearts and minds. We need a new strategy that lessens the role of the military if we are to break this cycle. We will disagree on this. You think my beliefs are not only foolish and careless, but unpatriotic to boot. I think your ideas only further the cycle of violence and perpetuate a world I am frightened for my children to grow up in. So, what do we do?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:04:34 AM EST
    edger - Your defense of OBL is what, his words re 1982? When he says these things he is like a man who comes up on a bank robbery in progress, and sees only the robbers being shot, and then ignores all things that happened before. John Mann - I ask you again, give us some explicit proof that Bush is a liar. Now we both know that you won't because you cannot, yet you continue to use the word. Now, if you are saying something that you know to not be true, what does that make you? Peaches - Unemployment at 4.8%, inflation very low, and new housing starts in April were way, way up, an increase of 4.9%. You know, those new home sales kinda put the lie to all those new jobs are low paying "burger flipping."

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#30)
    by Peaches on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:16:16 AM EST
    Peaches - Unemployment at 4.8%, inflation very low, and new housing starts in April were way, way up, an increase of 4.9%. You know, those new home sales kinda put the lie to all those new jobs are low paying "burger flipping."
    Jim, If only the investors on wall street shared your enthusiasm. You caught that the new housing starts were revised downward for March also. Short-term trends are interesting and fun to keep an eye on, but as you know, it is the long-term trends that made you a rich man. I am interested in the long-term trends, not so I can achieve the same level of prosperity as you, but out of concern for the future of my family, community, and the country I live in. I am not the only one who shares a concern about inflationary trends in the economy. It is the buzzphrase at the Fed. These concerns are the result of an easy money policy of the fed that made home loans so accessible to so many Americans over the last 5 years. Actually, burger flippers were and probably still are getting home loans for houses that are beyond the means for them to ever pay them off. Eventually, banks will stop making these loans as interest rates rise (to hold off inflationary pressures) and the burger flippers default on their loans. Personal debt has been on the rise since 1990's. The average savings rate for households is now in the negative for the first time since the depression era. Personal debt coupled with a massive public debt has rightly got many people nervous about inflation. The ones nerbous are the ones holding the bonds. The ones holding the bonds are the wealth holders. They are the ones nervous on wall street. The burger flippers won't even know what hit them.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 24, 2006 at 11:36:39 AM EST
    Peaches writes:
    I am interested in the long-term trends, not so I can achieve the same level of prosperity as you, but out of concern for the future of my family, community, and the country I live in.
    Let me urge you to bring more focus on your personal finances, because as you grow older you will discover that the Las Vegas expression, "Money talks and bulsh*t walks," is even more true at 65 than it is at 40. You are correct that the Feds are busily fighting the last war, also known as inflation. My main concern is that the new Chairman will feel a need to show how tough he is and drive the country into a recession. Hasn't yet, but I do have my finger on the "cash out and move into cash only" trigger. In the meantime, it easy to see that we have recovered from the Internet bubble burst, and the economy is good, thanks to the Bush Tax Cuts. BTW - You did note that tax receipts are up, didn't you?? So, why don't you wait until it is bad before calling it that? You know, current position vs forecast???

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peaches on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:11:05 PM EST
    Let me urge you to bring more focus on your personal finances, because as you grow older you will discover that the Las Vegas expression, "Money talks and bulsh*t walks," is even more true at 65 than it is at 40.
    Thanks for the advice, Jim. Really. But, I think I will be all right when I get to 65. I took the smart approach of marrying someone with more money than I, when I was younger. We'll be okay.
    So, why don't you wait until it is bad before calling it that? You know, current position vs forecast???
    Perhap's you penned it correctly when you made reference to Henny penny a while back. I have always been partail to doomsday scanarios. I seem to be infatuated with the apocalypse. However, I remain an optimist. Consider me an optimistic believer in the apocalypse. About inflation, I look at it a little like I do fossil fuels, oil, and climate change. In fact, I think they are all connected. We are so caught in the moment we are like the frog slowly adjusting and becoming acclimated to in the pan of heated water, never realizing it is on the way to a boiling point. Or, the mathematician in me gets slightly woried over growth rates and the rule of seventy. It works nice for investments, but when its growth rates in population, enrgy use, CO2 levels, and overall economies, I get a little worried becuase it is mathematically unsustainable. HOwever, because of the nature of growth rates and doubling times, we don't realize it until it is too late.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:17:15 PM EST
    Hk... But I also think that scrutinising our leaders is a valid and important thing to do. Scrutinize..yes. But to question everything...? NO! Peaches.... I believe that the US military, as an isntitution exists to wage war. Yes..here we have our first disagreement. I don't know your backround...but you must certainly know that the military is needed? It exist for the defense of this country. Without it, we wouldn't last too long. and that means killing and creating more opportunities for killing. Unfortunately, the commanders of the military aren't always pure.... this however doesn't make the military a bad thing. America was a better country when the military was much smaller as a percentage of our overall economy. Again.. I respectfully disagree. In fact one of the many reasons the military was somewhat unprepaired (lack of armor) for this war was due to spending cuts. The debt required to support this behemoth is likely more of a threat to the future of our government than any military threat we can find in the world While I will agree there is no need to spend $600 for a toilet seat, I will disagree that the spening (if brought under control as it should be) is more of a threat than the poeple that hate us & want us to die. But, I think violent solutions to conflict always come with a caveat for the creation of more violence I agree, violence should always be a last resort. But I hope you agree that it is the only option sometimes? If you hit me...I'm going to want to hit you back. However, if you hit me hard enough that I can't hit you back... the fight is over. We are creating enemies just by having such a large military So what should we do... disband our military in the hopes we will be more liked? We create enemies just because we're who we are. The US has always been admired, envied and hated, depending on what country you're talking about A good strategy for our enemies is to blend in with civilian populations. This strategy survives and is exploited. Yes... and where are all the people that want the innocents protected at any cost on this? I hear no outcry from the left...only critisism of our military for trying to get at the bad guys. So, our enemy employs a new tactic... what do we do...give up? Thus, our military kills even more civilians creating even more enemies as we lose the battle of hearts and minds. For every heart & mind you think we lose.... My friend's son (who just returned from Iraq) sez that the people there are finally getting fed up with the purposeful killing of innocents by the insurgents. They want to do it ...they try to do it..unlike our military who takes every precaution they can. There are far more people here upset with our military than there are there. Believe it or not (and you'll NEVER hear this on ABC) most Iraqis are GLAD we are there. They hated Saddam and wanted him gone. We need a new strategy that lessens the role of the military if we are to break this cycle I'd like to hear this plan? So, what do we do? Good question. As far as I'm concerned, our first order of business is to protect the American people from more attacks... and I believe Bush is doing that. I'd rather have our military engage these loonatics in Iraq than on the streets of the USA. The second thing is to have all this internal bickering stop. The enemy sees and hears whats going on here. I truly believe that if all the American people were behind this effort and acted as one voice... this war would be over in a few days! (which brings us back to my comment about the libs ruining this country)

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:19:22 PM EST
    ppj - "If you say something that you know not to be true, what does that make you?" It makes you like the guy who publicly announced in big, bold letters at this site a while back that Bush's poor numbers were due to the fact that the polls were slanted to 70% Democrats. Or, the guy who told us innumerable times that the big brouhaha about Valerie Plames identity being leaked was ludicrous because "everybody already knew who she worked for." Or, the guy who on practically every Delay thread attacked the credibility of the investigaters, claiming "I never defended Delay."

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#35)
    by HK on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:25:14 PM EST
    I said:
    But I also think that scrutinising our leaders is a valid and important thing to do.
    BB replied:
    Scrutinize..yes. But to question everything...? NO!
    I take my meaning of 'scrutinize' from the Oxford English Dictionary which states it means:
    examine or inspect closely and thoroughly
    Which surely is a paraphrase of 'question everything'. It's not like we are nit-picking here. We are talking about the loss of the lives of innocent people. It deserves our close inspection.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#36)
    by Peaches on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:46:40 PM EST
    but you must certainly know that the military is needed? It exist for the defense of this country. Without it, we wouldn't last too long.
    My argument is not that a military is not needed, but that our military has become much too large in comparison to the size of our economy and the size of other militarys around the world. We have not been made any safer because of this enormous size and we would actually be safe, along with the rest of the world, if this size was drastically reduced--for a number of reasons, not least of which that corporations and researchers would stop spending time and money developing weapons for our military and others (even, eventually falling into the hands of future enemies) that can kill larger amounts of people, from greater distances away, with greater precisions and accuracy. btw, some countries have done just fine without a military, postwar Japan, Switzerland.
    Unfortunately, the commanders of the military aren't always pure.... this however doesn't make the military a bad thing.
    I'd rather focus on the military as an industrial complex than as made up with individualals who might not be pure. I am saying our military as an industrial complex is a bad thing.
    I agree, violence should always be a last resort. But I hope you agree that it is the only option sometimes? If you hit me...I'm going to want to hit you back. However, if you hit me hard enough that I can't hit you back... the fight is over.
    I am a pacifist. I will not be provoked to violence. I would rather be killed than kill another. That said, I understand the need for self-defense. I accept the need for a military. I cannot accept the excessive use of violence perpetrated by a military out of control. The hit you hard enough approach only ends with nuclear annihilation. Short of this we have not been able to hit hard enough to reduce the number of our enemies around the world.
    So what should we do... disband our military in the hopes we will be more liked?
    In the hopes of peace.
    Yes... and where are all the people that want the innocents protected at any cost on this?
    I am not sure, but I want the innocents protected at any cost. That means we don't attack or bomb whenever the risk of civilian casualties exist. I cannot justify the loss of one innocent child for any cost. I will blame the insurgent and I will blame the one who pulled the trigger or dropped the bomb or gave the order. They are all accountable. Not one Child, not one innocent woman, not one innocent man. No one deserves death in this way. Stop the killing of innocents--all parties. Not I will when they do. Stop the killing, now.
    So, our enemy employs a new tactic... what do we do...give up?
    We were given imaginations for a reason. How about trying something novel. Talk to them. Find out their grievances. Get out of their country, if they ask.
    My friend's son (who just returned from Iraq) sez that the people there are finally getting fed up with the purposeful killing of innocents by the insurgents.
    Of course they are.
    Believe it or not (and you'll NEVER hear this on ABC) most Iraqis are GLAD we are there.
    I am not intending to be flippant, but I will stick with not. There are many more sources than ABC that testify that this is not so. Nobody wants to be occupied by a foriegn force. I am sure Iraqis also hate being terrorized by parts of the insurgency as much as they hated Saddam. I don't know enough about how to solve Iraqis problems, but I know enough to know I know less than an Iraqi would. It is time for us to leave.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 12:57:18 PM EST
    Believe it or not (and you'll NEVER hear this on ABC) most Iraqis are GLAD we are there.
    What an easily disproved fabrication.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:13:08 PM EST
    HK writes:
    It's not like we are nit-picking here. We are talking about the loss of the lives of innocent people. It deserves our close inspection.
    Yes, 9/11 was a terrible day. Perhaps we can step up and ask Jamie Gorelick why she wrote the Chinese Firewall memo that kept the FBI and the CIA from talking. Or what Clinton didn't pick up OBL when he could have. Or why the FBI didn't look at the hard drive. Or why the feds, over the past 20 years, let airport security become so poor. Or why the Sec of Transportation was more concerned with profiling than protecting.... Yes, with 20-20 hindsight we are all so wise, so intelligent.. Let me know when you decide to start. I'll be glad to help. jondee writes:
    bold letters at this site a while back that Bush's poor numbers were due to the fact that the polls were slanted to 70% Democrats.
    You write: "polls." That's plural. When you link us to the comments of the POLL in question, you will discover it to a single POLL, although it may have had multiple questions. So. What does that make you? Did you lie, or did you just make a mistake? Delay? I said many times, investigate, charge, try, etc. But leave the politics out. So you are wrong, again. Care to go for a clean sweep? Mrs. Wilson? I proved that point so many times that only the Jondees of the world would claim otherwise. I mean, she was so well known that even she knew it:
    She posed with her husband for a Vanity Fair photographer, wearing sunglasses and with a scarf over her blond hair. She drafted an op-ed article to correct what she felt were distortions of her and her husband's actions, but the C.I.A. would not authorize its publication, saying it would "affect the agency's ability to perform its mission."
    Yep. I'm a secret agent woman....and I'm gonna flaunt it. Way to go Jondee. Three pitches, three strikes and you're out again. Peaches writes:
    I took the smart approach of marrying someone with more money
    Now that is planning....;-) Our only real out is technology, in which I have a great deal of faith. We are a carbon based world, and we are making more efficient use of it every day.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:17:39 PM EST
    ppj rehashes the golden oldies of long debunked RNC talking points. Nostalgic.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:26:43 PM EST
    Our only real out is technology, in which I have a great deal of faith. We are a carbon based world, and we are making more efficient use of it every day.
    Jim, Maybe you missed it, but in addition to being an organic farmer, a pacifist, a leftie, and an optimisitic believer in the apocalypse--I am also a luddite. I am not against technology; per se, but I am against it if it has the potential for destroying community and family. I think our greater hope is the abandonment of science and technology, but call me whacked.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    there he goes again, just lying his a$$ off again about what the gorelick memo said and every other lamebaugh inspired fantasy he just can't seem to let go of, no matter how amny times the actual facts have been shown him.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:50:21 PM EST
    Sailor- Like Colbert says:
    The greatest thing about this man is he's steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday. Events can change; this man's beliefs never will.
    On tuesday he was reading a pet goat story.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:38:48 PM EST
    ppj - So, was your announcement - in big, bold, letters - about the nature of "the poll" a lie, or a lie masquerading as as a mistaken public public announcement. And show me where in what you just wrote about Plame, you provide any evidence whatsoever that the fact that she worked for the C.I.A was common knowledge BEFORE HER IDENTITY WAS LEAKED. Tell you what though, take a few minutes, pull your head out of its favorite orifice, extract the blaring Talk Radio, and clear your thoughts before you go in head first after stepping in it with both feet.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#44)
    by John Mann on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:11:26 PM EST
    John Mann - I ask you again, give us some explicit proof that Bush is a liar.
    Do your own research, Jim. I could list a dozen things we both know Mr. Bush has lied about and you'd just reply, "You're wrong, John." Or better yet, "Well, he was just acting on erroneous information from one of his staff."

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#45)
    by John Mann on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:21:37 PM EST
    I'm equally astonished by people like you that hate him so much... they actually root for OBL & his band of killers!
    Now you're just being silly, BB. I don't "hate" Mr. Bush; I just think he's a contemptible individual. Anyway, you forgot to mention that I also said:
    Certainly no decent person would condone Mr. bin Laden's murder of civilians
    Now honestly, BB, does that really sound as if I am "rooting" for Mr. bin Laden and his "band of killers"?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#46)
    by Sailor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:27:21 PM EST
    ahh, folks, don't let the trolls set the agenda (like I do;-) No one here supports OBL, the fact that you wrongwingers are so quick to use a lie to smear us says a lot more about you than us. Squeaky, good point. bb-
    That's the rub here... many people (like you) hate our president so much, they actually put this scum bag above him. That speaks volumes about you & them!
    Uhh, bush's lies are legion, just because someone points out how many times the pResident lied to us (and 'us' includes you) doesn't mean we support terrerists. In like fashion, pointing out the OBL tells the truth more often in his statements doesn't mean we support him. When OBL said he was happy about the 9/11 disaster, he was telling the truth. I find him a heinous, despicable $cumbag, but he told the truth. Do ya think maybe bush should actually try to find him instead of saying he doesn't matter anymore?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Wed May 24, 2006 at 03:55:42 PM EST
    Well, you see the idea behind that lets-sell-Port Security-to-the-highest-bidder was that they setting a trap for when OBL tryed to sneak into the country in a sailboat. You have a problem with that Sailor? Tell us again how you support the troops.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#48)
    by Sailor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:24:38 PM EST
    thanks Jondee, ppj would be proud of you;-)

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#49)
    by Sailor on Wed May 24, 2006 at 09:11:05 PM EST
    So I just watched the PBS special on the color guard and the 'Arlington Ladies.' Of course since all wrongwingers hate PBS, they would never understand, (or cry as I did), seeing the care that the color guard takes and the compassion the Arlington Ladies exhibit for every grieving parent. I think I'm done commenting here. It just hurts too much when some accuse me of being a traitor, blind hatred for the president, and especially of not caring about the troops (which used to include my nephew, GRHS).

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 02:52:59 AM EST
    The subject here is Moussaoui and Osama's announcement, not the economy. Don't let Jim hijack the thread, or it will be closed.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 08:51:13 AM EST
    HK... I take my meaning of 'scrutinize' from the Oxford English Dictionary which states it means: OK HK..If you're going to go "literal" I guess you got me. However, let me ask you this... Did you "scrutinize" the Clinton administration as much? Paeches... we would actually be safe, along with the rest of the world, if this size was drastically reduced Well...unfortunately, with people like OBL & some of the other zealots around...(that want us all dead) I don't think that is possible. some countries have done just fine without a military, postwar Japan, Switzerland Postwar Japan was not allowed to built it's military back up...besides, we are protecting them...(along with Mexico & Canada) Switwerland has always been a nuetral country... too late for us to take that stand. I am saying our military as an industrial complex is a bad thing I wouldn't disagree with that. I am a pacifist. I will not be provoked to violence If the world was full of people like you this would all be a moot point... but unfortunatly... it isn't. I'm a realist and I think when the time comes to take a stand...that's what you need to do. In the hopes of peace. Hope is a good thing... but 'hoping' things will go your way isn't really pratical. How about trying something novel. Talk to them. Find out their grievances I'm not sure how much you've been paying attention (I'm not trying to be nasty here) but these guys don't want to talk..they want us dead. Their grievance is that we are living and are infidels! There are many more sources than ABC that testify that this is not so. Yes...like NBC, CBS, CNBC, CNN ...etc..etc ... all left leaning/Bush hating companies. Who would you believe...all thses "very biased" news organizations..or a soldier that was there! Nobody wants to be occupied by a foriegn force I agree and that's not why we are there....I believe you'll see troop reductions very soon. Sailor.... What an easily disproved fabrication. For every CNN lefty leaning "poll" you cite, I can cite just as many leaning the other way! Polls are like numbers...you can make them say anything you want depending on how you ask the question. You'll have to do better than that. Oh yes and this.... the fact that you wrongwingers are so quick to use a lie to smear us says a lot more about you than us. Here we go with that "lie" word again. Do all of you really know how 'wrong' you all are in throwing this word around all the time? My giving an "opinion" that you are rooting for terrorists and are against this country is not in any way .. shape.. or form... a LIE! Please educate yourself! John Mann.. Now you're just being silly, BB. I don't "hate" Mr. Bush; Yeah...that's what you are all saying now...but I sure couldn't tell by most of the 'hateful" posts on here.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#52)
    by Peaches on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:16:58 AM EST
    Well...unfortunately, with people like OBL & some of the other zealots around...(that want us all dead) I don't think that is possible.
    I understand and can even support the logic behind a military response that specifically targets OBL. We could do this with a much samller budget for our military and we definately don't need to be in Iraq for this. Also, Please provide a link that says he wants us all dead. He certainly has no problems killing some of us (and this is the reason I would support trying to capture or kill him), but he gives specific reasons for doing so. He thinks he is serving a greater cause to remove our presence from land he holds to be sacred. He feels justified in retaliating against us for crimes he percieves the US has committed. He holds American people responsible for the decisions and policies of our governmental leaders. I think this is reprehensible logic, but I'm just explaining again. The zealots have an agenda to protect their own interests. What we have here are tit for tat game theory strategies. All I am saying is that we should stop trying to stomp someone whenever we have an objective--because this will lead to the tat. Take a step back--leave the ME, stop bombing other peoples countries and Americans will be safer from the Zealots than if we continue with the policy and stratigies we currently are on.
    Yes...like NBC, CBS, CNBC, CNN ...etc..etc ... all left leaning/Bush hating companies. Who would you believe...all thses "very biased" news organizations..or a soldier that was there!
    You really need to get over this left thing and Bush hating thing. It doesn't reflect well on either your personality or intelligence. You sound angry, ignorant and paranoid. Information is freely available. Great, you have talked to returning soldiers. So have I. Perhaps we both have our own personally biased filters. All I hear is how horrible things are over there. It sounds like hell for everyone involved. You hear the opposite--as if things are actually improving. Again, we have a disagreement that is not going to be resolved. Why not leave it at that instead of always going to your standby when you run up against someone who can not be persuaded to your view--liberal/left wing/ bush hater. Thats petty and reveals more about the shallowness of your thinking than your interlocutor. I mean, I heard you say this on the seat-belt thread this morning. I would laugh out loud if it wasn't so pathetic and sad.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 25, 2006 at 11:31:01 AM EST
    TL - I apologize for my response to Peaches comment about the "bad economy." It was definitely off subject. edger - Yesterday AM you quoted a lenghty statement by OBL in which he used the 1982 Israel invasion of Lebanon as a base reason for his hatred of the West, Israel and the US in particualr. I noted that he was like a man who comes late to a bank robbery and is outraged that the robbers have been killed. The objective reason being that he has no knowledge of what went before. I was wrong. OBL is an educated man, and he knows ME history quite well. He just cannot stand the result. This again brings OBL's statement to Peter Arnett in 3/97 into focus:
    So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    So we again see how OBL view's the world, and we again see that he meant what he said to Arnett. To think otherwise after all of this is naive at best. Squeaky, your side has had a bit of fun comparing the honesty of Bush to OBL. In fact several have said that OBL is less honest. Now that we have again demonstrated his bias, how can you believe that he was being honest when he denies Moussaoui's connection?

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#55)
    by Peaches on Thu May 25, 2006 at 12:22:15 PM EST
    Are you calling them out on all their "wrong wing, racist, neocon" nasty comments coming this way when I don't agree with them?
    Touche' I have a couple of times for specific instances and I have uttered the neocon reference before in the past, but, I agree, that sometimes people rush too quickly to place a label on the person they are addressing--and this only leads to the further polarization btw sides in our nation. I have been trying to make a concerted effort to understand the people who voted for Bush in the last election--the red-staters--and I have made some progress. I don't think the gulf is as wide as many here percieve. I actually think something can be gained by engaging in dialogue over name-calling. We are fist and foremost all Americans who care about the future of this country. That is where we should begin talking. Actually, We are first and foremost, human beings and as such we all deserve the respect that comes with this. Thus, we need to reach out and try to understand...We need empathy.
    There are plenty of links out there that show this. The "jihad" against America stands...wether we pull out of the ME or not. We are infidels and therefor must die. It says so right in the Al Quida manual! These people cannot (& will not) be bargained with and that's the main issue the left fails to see.
    We are in danger from OBL and many islam fundamentalists. However, OBL states that he attacked us on 9/11 because of our military presence in SA and our support of Israel. I am not sure if we can ever reach a satisfactory agreement with OBL, if we decided to engage him in conversation. I am enraged by what happened on 9/11, so I support attempts to capture or kill him. I do not support the current broad WOT, because it has taken efforts and resources away from the objective of holding the perpetrators in 9/11 accountable for that horrible day and it has lead to the killing of a great number of innocent people lending support to OBL's squad. Show me the links, I'll take a look. OBL has never called for the death of all non-muslems and all Americans. This is fantasy and it is used to justify your fear and the WOT. You need a better reason for this war.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Thu May 25, 2006 at 01:13:52 PM EST
    They want "regime change" and they want it bad. They dont care how it happens; if it costs a trillion dollars and a million lives(as long as its not theirs); the idea of the exercise of unlimited power is just too delicious for these sadist/sociopaths. Deeply sick.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 01:30:01 PM EST
    This countrys ripe for a good ass kickin.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Thu May 25, 2006 at 01:57:42 PM EST
    ppj - Bush has "changed the office" with the help of a b.j and a terrorist attack; and $250 mil "populist" war chest.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 25, 2006 at 02:23:59 PM EST
    Show me the links, I'll take a look. OBL has never called for the death of all non-muslems and all Americans. This is fantasy and it is used to justify your fear and the WOT. You need a better reason for this war.
    What does he call for? Could we ever do enough to satisfy him and the other fanatics? We would at a minimum have to abandon Israel.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#60)
    by soccerdad on Thu May 25, 2006 at 02:27:39 PM EST
    We would at a minimum have to abandon Israel.
    No, but we would have to take a more balanced approach instead of being Israel's lapdog.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Thu May 25, 2006 at 02:33:51 PM EST
    Iran offered in 2003 to accept peace with Israel and cut off material assistance to Palestinian armed groups and to pressure them to halt terrorist attacks within Israel's 1967 borders, according to a secret Iranian proposal to the United States.
    LINK

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#62)
    by Peaches on Thu May 25, 2006 at 02:36:59 PM EST
    JRT, Feel free to jump right in. For your sake I will cover some old ground. I support going after OBL. We should hunt him down to be captured or killed. He is a security threat to our nation. That said, he has never asked or justified that all Americans or non-muslems should be killed. He does, however, justify the death of innocent non-muslems and Americans for what he percieves as crimes done by our gov't. Because of his abilities and his demonstrations that he c an carry through on his threats, he is a legitimate security threat to all Americans and our way of life. For that, we should use every means to hunt him down. However, He has also portrayed himself to the muslem world as being reasonable by pointing some of the misdeeds of our policies (in terms, of how they affect fellow muslems), such as supporting Israel and the support we gave to Saddam in the past as well as the current regime in SA. We should not negotiate with OBL. That would be foolish, but we should respond to some of his allegations and demonstrate our support for muslem people when posssible in other means than a military presence. We should also get the hell out of Iraq, ASAP.

    Re: Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/1 (none / 0) (#63)
    by Peaches on Thu May 25, 2006 at 02:41:49 PM EST
    I'm a horrible speller at times. Muslims

    Bin Laden Denies Moussaoui's Connection to 9/11 | 61 comments (61 topical)