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Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National College Draft

There's been little news in the Duke lacrosse players' alleged rape case the past few days, but the comments keep coming so here's a new thread. And some player news:

[Matt] Zash and two former teammates, Kyle Dowd and Dan Flannery, took part in workouts hours before the Major League Lacrosse college draft. All three were selected in Wednesday night's draft, and Zash could make his professional debut as early as Saturday when his Philadelphia Barrage faces the New Jersey Pride.

While Duke hasn't said it will reinstate the team, things are looking that way. At least two new lacrosse players are sticking with their decision to attend Duke in the fall.

Another team player, Matthew Wilson, has been suspended from the team following an arrest for driving while impaired and marijuana possession.

And here's a totally trashy Rolling Stone article about frat boys and girls at Duke.

Lacrosse players, sorority girls and the booze-fueled culture of the never-ending hookup on the nation's most embattled college campus.

Most of those interviewed are female, and it's a sleaze piece that has little to do with the lacrosse team but will reinforce stereotypes among those who already believe in them.

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    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#1)
    by azbballfan on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 12:29:03 AM EST
    imho asked spartan:
    How brutal a rape would it have to be for you to report it?
    I asked if she would go straight to authorities if she hear loud noises from a bathroom with one of her friends and a gal she didn't know.
    Yes [...] Assballfan
    Feeling a bit friendly and neighborly today?

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#2)
    by azbballfan on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 12:47:18 AM EST
    TL - being a 30 something I can understand your comments regarding the tone of the Rolling Stone interview. However, also having raised some girls in their early 20's, I would have to say it provides an accurate portrayal of sexual attitudes amongst today's late adolescents. I found it's reference to popular media influences on the acceptance of arousal to be poignant. I especially liked the phrase 'post Clinton attitudes' used to describe kids who learned to laugh at those who try to use shame about one's sexual desires to control every aspect of their lives. For kids enjoying thier newfound freedoms of fully funded unsupervised activities would laugh at the attempts of parents to control their college day antics. Certainly if someone tries to impeach a President for letting himself get aroused and lying about it, then this world is truly a silly place. Brittney Spears and Christina Aguilerra proved it's perfectly fine for the next generation of women to flaunt themselves. It sets certain expectations for behavior amongst the men who pay for entertainment. Juxtaposed against the hard cold reality of a stripper who is almost a decade older and instead of watching Brittney Spears and Christina Aguilera videos for direction, went to war to have kids and is struggling to educate herself while feeding two kids and you have a perfect storm in the making.

    azbballfan posted:
    I found it's reference to popular media influences on the acceptance of arousal to be poignant. I especially liked the phrase 'post Clinton attitudes' used to describe kids who learned to laugh at those who try to use shame about one's sexual desires to control every aspect of their lives.
    Sources: Clinton Gave DNA Sample To Starr's Office
    WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Aug. 1998) -- The Office of Independent Counsel has received a sample of President Bill Clinton's DNA, sources told CNN Wednesday.
    Presumably, the sample will be compared with samples taken from a dress Monica Lewinsky reportedly told investigators contained evidence of a physical relationship with the president. The FBI's crime laboratory has the garment.
    In an address televised to the nation Monday night, Clinton acknowledged a relationship with Lewinsky that he said was "not appropriate."
    Today's college students were in middle school (6th, 7th & 8th grades where I live) during the "Monica Lewinsky Era." I recall a student at the local middle school wore a blue Gap dress, a black wig and bright red lipstick to school as her Halloween costume. What were her parents thinking? No word on if the Gap dress was visably stained (I didn't ask, I was afraid of what the answer might be).

    Duke denies reports Men's lacrosse still suspended Jun 03, 2006 03:10 AM
    The one-sentence statement released by John Burness, Duke senior vice president for public affairs and government relations, contradicted reports that the university planned to announce the reinstatement of the lacrosse program next week.
    "Media reports to the contrary, President [Richard] Brodhead has not yet made a decision on the future of men's lacrosse at Duke," Burness said in the statement.


    I propose a situation: There is a fraternity, a football dormitory or a large house occupied by a lot of boys with common interests that has a second story deck. The students there are rudely obnoxious when then have been drinking, which is rather often. The boys sit up there and throw catcalls at passing pedestrians. Their reputation is such that most women cross over to the other side of the street to avoid hassles. Complaints are made in May two months into the warmer spring weather to the college authorities and to the city police. There are articles published in the campus press and the city paper. But, it does not go beyond the community although students demand action from either the college or city. Let's change the scenario. The situation for the students passing by the fraternity, dorm or house is bad, but no one has made a formal complaint. After all since the murder took place in April before public opinion built up after two months of the harrassment. No press coverage had yet been published. One Friday afternoon, the boys are drinking heavily. Several seniors took the same midterm. They failed it badly and all will not be able to graduate. A pedestrian who does not know any better is insulted by the drunk and made seniors. He yells out for them to shut out. The first beer bottle knocks the passerby out and the consequent ones finish him off. There are witnesses and several of the boys are arrested for murder. The case becomes a big story. Now, the articles that were not yet published are now published and they go national. The boys hire a prominent lawyer with strong links to the press. Are those articles sleazy? Do they "reinforce stereotypes among those who already believe in them" The articles would not have have been criticized when they were published after the May formal complaints against the fraternity, dorm or house. Does an accusation of murder bring with it protection from publicity?

    Roscoe Domino:
    Does an accusation of murder bring with it protection from publicity?
    TL called the article sleazy (I agree). She didn't demand protection from publicity for anyone. The only thing related to this case that brings any protection from publicity (and very limited protection at that) is a rape accusation (and only the AV is protected). Does that make sense, or did I mis-understand your post?

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#7)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 10:14:32 AM EST
    There's a professional lacross league?

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#8)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 10:15:09 AM EST
    (also lacrosse)

    There are 10 pro teams. Practice on Fri nights, games on Saturday. Typical salary for rookies - 6K, Veterans - 13K, for a 36 game season. Outside of the best 2 or 3 players with endorsement deals, no one makes a primary wage in pro lacrosse. Kids who play this sport do it for fun, perhaps the chance to get into prestigious school like Duke, Harvard, etc., not to make millions. There is an intense loyal following of the college game, with close to 50,000 in attendance for championship games.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#10)
    by Lora on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 11:46:14 AM EST
    How about this for sleazy? No reply yet to my email to Darla Miles who authored the trashy abc11 article with at least two errors, linked by TL in the thread about how the accuser changed her story : from the article:
    "Within a few minutes, I was told that she told the [doctor] that she had been raped? I returned? and asked her if she had or had not been raped. She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bedroom."
    No, the report said "bathroom," which IS consistent with the AV's account.
    The report also shows inconsistencies with the story from the second dancer, Kim Roberts. The alleged victim called her "Nikki" that night. According to the report, neither woman told police that Roberts also performed at the lacrosse team's party.
    Baloney. The report clearly states that the AV told Shelton both women danced:
    She said she and "Nikki" danced and "put on a show"...
    Sleazy not to acknowledge my email or correct the article. Trashy because it makes the AV look more inconsistent, when in reality there was one inconsistency which we don't know why it was there. I also note that no attempt was made by the reporter to clarify it, either.

    Did the AV not want to talk to the cop because he was questioning whether or not a rape occurred?

    Lora posted:
    Sleazy not to acknowledge my email or correct the article. Trashy because it makes the AV look more inconsistent, when in reality there was one inconsistency which we don't know why it was there. I also note that no attempt was made by the reporter to clarify it, either.
    I e-mailed the author of an ESPN article about this case with a correction. He replied immediatedly (it was in the middle of the night my time), thanked me and said he would have it corrected ASAP. A few hours later he e-mailed to let me know it was corrected and to thank me again. I checked and it was corrected. Some reporters care.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#13)
    by Lora on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 01:40:52 PM EST
    imho, Good to hear. Maybe I'll try again, and email the news editor this time. Bob, If a rape occurred, I think the AV was misunderstood by Shelton, and became frustrated and upset, but tried again anyway to explain. However if she really recanted and then went back to saying she was raped, this is actually not uncommon for people who have experienced rape.

    The accuser's interest, once she came out of her stupor, may have been primarily in getting some kind of medical care and not in addressing the implications of reporting a rape. Do we know with any accuracy how the police first came to hear that she had been raped? Did she claim it to the guy who called her "just passed out drunk" or did she wait until some pseudo-medical person got involved?

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Did the AV not want to talk to the cop because he was questioning whether or not a rape occurred?
    It may have been the manner in which he was questioning her. There is a recommended protocol for first responding officers which includes establishing a rapport and determining the emotional state of the victim. They are to avoid touching the victim without permission and maintaining the victim's personal space. They are to speak softly and gently and attempt to gain the victim's trust and confidence by showing understanding, patience and respect for personal dignity. The accuser may have overheard one of the officers describe her as "passed out drunk." Shelton says he spoke to her loudly, "lightly" "jostled" her, used an ammonia capsule on her, suspected she was faking unconsciousness, grappled with her to get her out of the car, decided she wouldn't (as opposed to couldn't) walk on her own, decided she wouldn't (as opposed to couldn't) tell them where she lived and judged her to be uncooperative. I think Sgt. Shelton could benefit from some sensitivity training.

    Let me get this straight--the AV changes/adds to her story to the SANE people (perhaps for reasons such as "trauma" or because "many alleged rape victims do this") and it's Shelton's fault? If you were a cop would your first response to a complaint about a passed out person in party clothes sitting in someone's car be "Were you raped?" Maybe if Kim had told him that the AV had been raped--but KIM SAID NO SUCH THING AT THE TIME. If this whole case ends up being she said/he said, then each little bit of inconsistancy, though innocent in itself, adds to reasonable doubt. What fits the evidence and AV's story now might be that some one or more players took her into a bathroom, possibly with her consent for cash, but she collapsed into a stupor and dissociated. No multiple rape happened, but in her dissociated/delirious state she sincerely remembers it. That fits the lack of physical evidence. The lack of a tox screen is really a miscarriage of justice, whatever the technical SANE rules say.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#17)
    by Lora on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 02:42:28 PM EST
    rogan, Frankly I don't think the AV DID change her story. I think Shelton got it wrong. And...once he was told that she'd said she'd been raped, he should have gotten a police officer down there who WAS trained in how to speak to victims of rape. He blew it. At the point he knew that she had reported a rape, it is his fault. And..."each little bit of inconsistency" could be on HIS end, NOT the AV's. As far as "lack of physical evidence?" The SANE exam, done by a nurse AND doctor, shows plenty of evidence. Just because the rapist isn't vicious enough to cause a tear in a woman's va*ina doesn't mean she wasn't forced, that she didn't struggle, that she wasn't overwhelmed, that she wasn't traumatized. There was pain and swelling and redness in one quadrant of her va*ina. It got there somehow. And what about the a*al trauma? Defense didn't release that part. What about other injuries, to her face, neck, and arms as reported by the ESPN source? Defense didn't release that either.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#18)
    by desertswine on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 03:48:45 PM EST
    There's a professional lacross league?
    My exact thought also.

    Rogan, You wrote:
    Maybe if Kim had told him that the AV had been raped--but KIM SAID NO SUCH THING AT THE TIME.
    She didn't think it at the time. She's not so sure now. Time to demonize her! All you have to do to be demonized in this case is believe the accuser. Ask Nifong. Ask the father. Do we know whether Shelton believes the accuser? If he does, watch him be the next to receive a lay diagnosis. You wrote:
    What fits the evidence and AV's story now might be that some one or more players took her into a bathroom, possibly with her consent for cash, but she collapsed into a stupor and dissociated.
    Where's the evidence that she went in the bathroom with a player? Why not just have her "dissociate" out in the car, like the defense attorneys. How does "consent for cash" fit the evidence OR the accuser's story? Isn't that just an example of you dissociating? I don't think the "she's crazy" defense is going to go very far if Nifong can put the suspects in the bathroom with her. Someone might have to say what went on in there besides the accuser. So far this case is shaping up as a "his lawyer said/she said" case, but a lot of jurors won't go for that if Nifong has any actual evidence. They'll be expecting a "he said."

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jo on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 04:58:27 PM EST
    Just because the rapist isn't vicious enough to cause a tear in a woman's va*ina doesn't mean she wasn't forced, that she didn't struggle, that she wasn't overwhelmed, that she wasn't traumatized.
    It also doesn't mean pigs can't fly. Now tinkle on my leg and tell me it's raining. (my apologies if this sounds rude, not sure how else to say it).

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jo on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 05:45:52 PM EST
    couldn't finish
    "couldn't finish" wouldn't explain the lack of DNA. Remember, this was a 30-minute condomless assault from mulitple angles resulting in swelling, tender baby-feeders, and pain in a "quadrant" (I don't know what a quadrant is, really).

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#23)
    by JK on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 07:15:31 PM EST
    PB:
    Do we know whether Shelton believes the accuser? If he does, watch him be the next to receive a lay diagnosis.
    Shelton has already received a lay diagnosis by those who believe the accuser: He is an insensitive cop, who didn't have the proper training and/or temperment to deal with a rape victim, and he thus misinterpreted what the AV said.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#24)
    by Lora on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 07:25:12 PM EST
    Jo, A quadrant is I would guess a quarter of the total area of the va*ina, though I'm not really sure. Do you really believe there has to be tearing for it to be forcible rape? Is that a legal definition? Ok, if someone beat somebody up and the person was bruised and his jaw was swollen but there was no blood, what did he get, a massage?

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#25)
    by weezie on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 07:32:46 PM EST
    AZBball, that's some nasty physical references you are dishing out. Aren't we all supposed to be ladies and gentlemen here? Go watch the Suns pound on the Mavs and quit with the nasty talk.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#26)
    by Lora on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 07:44:28 PM EST
    jk posted,
    Shelton has already received a lay diagnosis by those who believe the accuser: He is an insensitive cop, who didn't have the proper training and/or temperment to deal with a rape victim, and he thus misinterpreted what the AV said.
    It looks good to me. At least as good as saying the AV is inconsistent, deceptive, dissociative, weak, mentally ill, etc. I mean really. If you HAD been raped, were in a state of pain, shock, disbelief, outrage, what have you, and you had some cop standing there saying, "Were you raped or weren't you?" I'd want to scream at him to get the **** outta the room. If she hadn't been raped and was scamming, wouldn't you think she would tell him she she had been? Why break down in front of him and then tell the SANE nurse about it? Makes no sense.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#27)
    by january on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 08:53:43 PM EST
    Imho said,
    It may have been the manner in which he was questioning her. There is a recommended protocol for first responding officers which includes establishing a rapport and determining the emotional state of the victim. They are to avoid touching the victim without permission and maintaining the victim's personal space. They are to speak softly and gently and attempt to gain the victim's trust and confidence by showing understanding, patience and respect for personal dignity.
    I think Sgt. Shelton could benefit from some sensitivity training.
    When Sgt. Shelton first responded, nobody had even mentioned rape. How is he supposed to establish a rapport with somebody who's passed out - or pretending to be passed out? And how is he supposed to get her out of the car without touching her if she's apparently unconscious? And I can't find anywhere that she actually ever told him she'd been raped. I think his frustration at hearing several different versions of her story is understandable.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#29)
    by azbballfan on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 09:51:01 PM EST
    rogan, Point possibly taken on the AV being an escort. We have only sketchy reports of this. But giving you the benefit of the doubt - does this change anything? If anything, it puts more pressure on the players to prove they didn't get caught up in a failed negotiation. Where is there written a "Johns' bill of rights for services rendered"? If these guys scared away two prostitutes by yelling about using broomsticks on them and racial epithets, then decided they wanted to entice them back and pay for sex, then in my book, they're damn guilty for being the dumbest students ever.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#21)
    by azbballfan on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 09:59:33 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#28)
    by azbballfan on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 10:04:12 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#30)
    by JK on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 11:07:08 PM EST
    Lora, My only point is that there is that both sides are engaging in armchair psychoanalysis. Your hypothethis about Shelton's demeanor provides one possible explanation of the discrepancy in his report and the AV's later statement. Another hypothethis some posters have suggested is that the AV initially did not claim rape, realized she was going to be involuntarily held, then did claim rape. Which theory is more plausible? I will reserve judgment for now, and I definitely want to hear what Shelton has to say as a witness. But based on what we know so far about the AV, I am certainly not comfortable presuming that the first hypothethis is correct.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#31)
    by azbballfan on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 11:42:42 PM EST
    rogan:
    A further problem with the rush to judgment. Much better to have questioned the Duke 46 one by one at the grand jury under oath.
    This sounds juicy but the players all indicated they wouldn't answer questions to the police ouside said subpeona. The grand jury is not the appropriate place for prosecutors to interrogate potential witnesses. Certainly the course of action you suggest for the prosecution is so stupid it would cause any DA to submit his resignation in shame. It could be that they did something less than a 'brutal rape for 30 minutes'. But the police report doesn't exactly say that. It claims she was forced against her will for 30 minutes in an incident which she claims inluded rape, assualt, and retention against her will. The rape could have taken 30 minutes, it could have taken less than a minute - the police report doesn't indicate how long the sexual assualt took place.

    MEMORANDUM TO: All ADAs FROM: Marjory D. Fisher, Bureau Chief Special Victims Bureau DATE: December 10, 1999 SUBJECT: Transcript of Dr.- re: No Meds Here are some questions to ask (see the cross) when you have no meds in a sex crimes case. See me please if you want more questions.

    january posted:
    When Sgt. Shelton first responded, nobody had even mentioned rape. How is he supposed to establish a rapport with somebody who's passed out - or pretending to be passed out? And how is he supposed to get her out of the car without touching her if she's apparently unconscious? And I can't find anywhere that she actually ever told him she'd been raped. I think his frustration at hearing several different versions of her story is understandable.
    Once he has heard she is a potential rape victim he should have called another officer to speak with her at the hospital. At that point, he should have known if she was raped, his previous interaction with her and his lack of rapport with her could hinder the reporting of the assault - which it did. He may have been frustrated with her before she told anyone anything, which is reason enough to call someone else to take the sexual assault report. What are the "several versions" of her story that frustrated him? At Krogers she told him nothing. That's not a version. She also didn't tell him where she lived, does that mean her first version was that she didn't have an address? Once she gave someone her address would that be her second version of where she lived? She tells someone at Durham Access she was raped - first version. Shelton meets her at the hospital and tells him "no one forced her to have sex" - second version. He leaves. She tells the S.A.N.E. examiner she was raped - reitereates first version. He comes back in - "I returned to the room where she was and asker her if she had or had not been raped" and she doesn't want to talk to him - no new version. What are the "several versions" of her story that frustrated him?

    New Room in Duke Hospital Emergency Department Established for Care of Victims of Sexual Assault
    "Sexual assault is among the most traumatic experiences a person can have," said Dr. Ralph Snyderman, chancellor for health affairs and president and CEO of Duke University Health System.
    "It is very important during a time of great emotional distress that each patient receives as much support as possible," said Mike Israel, vice president of DUHS and CEO of Duke University Hospital. "When these patients are seen in our emergency room, they can be assured of being treated by highly dedicated and trained personnel in a state-of-the-art facility."
    The 14 Duke SANE nurses - enough so there is at least one on-site during all shifts - have or are in the process of receiving training for dealing with the special needs of sexual assault victims and collecting evidence. As part of their training, the nurses learn how to provide expert testimony for cases that make it to court.
    "The SANE nurses are the cornerstone of the program," said Kathy Finch, nurse manager of the emergency department. "It takes a very special nurse to be able to deal with the emotional impact caused by such brutal acts. They are people who inspire trust, have a deep reserve of compassion and can conduct themselves objectively during a time of great anxiety."
    "The designated room provides a more private space for victims of sexual assault, so they don't have to wait in the general waiting areas with other patients," Cunningham said. "It's a room dedicated completely to them, with patient comfort and confidentiality incorporated into same design. With the specially trained nurses and new equipment, we're hoping to be able to prosecute rape cases even more effectively."


    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jo on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 03:29:31 AM EST
    At Krogers she told him nothing. That's not a version. She also didn't tell him where she lived .... What are the "several versions" of her story that frustrated him?
    Maybe it wasn't exactly verbal versions of the story that frustrated him. First he finds her unable to respond, apparently passed out in the car. Then he realizes she's faking (mouth-breathing). Then she resists getting out of the car, and wont cooperate (wont walk, wont talk). Then it turns into a claim of rape (he is told by third party). I can see where this would seem like "different versions" or a "changing story".

    Jo posted:
    Maybe it wasn't exactly verbal versions of the story that frustrated him.
    I agree. If he was frustrated with her before she reported the rape, he, unknowingly, may have blown an opportunity to establish a rapport with her. He then should have known to call in another officer to attempt to establish rapport. The protocol for some police forces require a male responding officer to ask a female sexual assault victim if she would prefer to speak to a woman officer. Jo posted:
    First he finds her unable to respond, apparently passed out in the car. Then he realizes she's faking (mouth-breathing).
    Either he or another responding officer assumes someone, who made be traumatzed, is "passed out drunk." Shelton then assumes someone, who may be traumatized, may be faking being "passed out drunk." Jo posted:
    Then she resists getting out of the car, and wont cooperate (wont walk, wont talk).
    Resists out of stubbornness or fear possibly due to trauma? How rational is her trying to resist two officers prying her out of Kim's car? What was her plan? I'll just stay in the Krogers parking lot in someone else's car? If she's not drunk, what is the problem? Won't talk or walk or can't talk or walk due to trauma. Jo posted:
    Then it turns into a claim of rape (he is told by third party). I can see where this would seem like "different versions" or a "changing story".
    Turns into a rape claim from what? The initial claim of rape isn't a different version or changing story, it is her first telling of what is wrong with her. Different from what Officer Shelton decided was wrong with her? What did he decide? Not drunk. Won't walk or talk. "She met the criteria for involuntary committment." A danger to others? A danger to herself? Or unable to care for herself? Could be a result of sexual assault trauma.

    azbball: you said
    Point possibly taken on the AV being an escort. We have only sketchy reports of this.
    Sketchy reports of the AV working for an escort agency? Of her being an escort? We have the AV's statements in her interview, do you not believe her?
    . . . they're damn guilty for being the dumbest students ever.
    I must have missed that charge in the indictments.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#38)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 07:35:08 AM EST
    i'm still at a loss as to exactly how one "establishes a rapport" with a purportedly unconscious person? does one talk softly and slowly in their ear? beats me, i've not a clue. neither do any of you. az, the 46 need not, and shouldn't, do anything, absent a subpoena. why should they? let me repeat for those of you on drugs: the police and DA, in a criminal case, are not your friends. they are trying to find a party to arrest & indict, for whatever the crime is. it's what they do. anyone who would willingly talk to the police or prosecutor, w/o their atty. present, will be paying collect phone bills from prison. the rape kit proves only that the AV had sex, nothing more. it doesn't show who she had sex with, how many times she had sex, or when that sex occured. considering the fact that the only DNA to pop up, so far, is her b/f's, he becomes the likeliest prospect. additionally, she, in her escort job, visited several other men during the week prior to the party. the rape kit doesn't prove she didn't have rough sex with one or all of them. add to that that having even regular sex, multiple times, might well also produce those same vaginal conditions noted in the SANE report. i'm not saying any of this did happen, because i haven't a clue. however, in the absence of any DNA, aside from her b/f's, the door has been swung wide open (as it were) for the defense to pick it apart. sounds like that report is becoming less and less useful. unless something much more compelling is in it, that's not been leaked to the public, i submit it will get short shrift in any trial. frankly, this case has been so poorly handled from the start, if a crime did occur, don't expect to see justice done, for any of the parties involved. nifong may have an ace in the hole, but i doubt it. more like aces & 8's.

    cpinva posted:
    i'm still at a loss as to exactly how one "establishes a rapport" with a purportedly unconscious person? does one talk softly and slowly in their ear? beats me, i've not a clue. neither do any of you.
    imho posted
    Once he has heard she is a potential rape victim he should have called another officer to speak with her at the hospital. At that point, he should have known if she was raped, his previous interaction with her and his lack of rapport with her could hinder the reporting of the assault - which it did.


    I asked why the AV didn't want to talk to Shelton and suggested it was because he was questioning whether or not a rape occurred. Someone posted: PB: Do we know whether Shelton believes the accuser? If he does, watch him be the next to receive a lay diagnosis. Shelton has already received a lay diagnosis by those who believe the accuser: He is an insensitive cop, who didn't have the proper training and/or temperment to deal with a rape victim, and he thus misinterpreted what the AV said. No one knows how Shelton behaved that night or how he was perceived. We can only imagine. People have accused me of armchair psychoanalysis of the AV, and I'm guilty. But just about everyone here has imagined motives and actions of people we know nothing about based on a very few facts and mostly what we feel about the case. The thing about these kinds of cases I find interesting, and about the mental processes we each go through, is how we fill in the blanks. We all have some presumption or theory of the case which we are trying to prove or disprove, and they're based on our own lives and usually have nothing to do with the cases themselves. Durga will come in and make observations based on his experiences with race and racism in the U.S. Others will argue the case through a feminist lens. Others, as former Duke students, or as people who dislike Duke. All of these lenses are important, but none of them will give us the entire answer of what four people whom none of us know did that night.

    Bob in P posted:
    The thing about these kinds of cases I find interesting, and about the mental processes we each go through, is how we fill in the blanks [emphasis added]. We all have some presumption or theory of the case which we are trying to prove or disprove, and they're based on our own lives and usually have nothing to do with the cases themselves.
    Making constellations out of stars... a very human drive.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#42)
    by january on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 03:52:55 PM EST
    Turns into a rape claim from what?
    From a "passed out drunk", or a "groped but not forced to have sex."
    he should have called another officer to speak with her at the hospital.
    Shelton found out that she was claiming rape from another officer, so there was another officer involved. She never told Shelton she was raped. Plus, he already had reason to think she was not being honest (with regard to her incapacitation). I still say his reactions were understandable, or did you want him to have sensitivity training for dealing with passed-out drunk(s)-but-possibly-faking-it?

    Slow times, but this is an interesting commentary, on Fox. I do not agree with all of what Ms. Estrich had to say, but this,
    The only way all sides will ever be convinced that this case has been handled fairly is if someone other than Mike Nifong handles it. The defendants deserve that; the accuser deserves that; and most important, the people deserve that.
    and this,
    A successful prosecution doesn't have to mean that a conviction results. It means that the public is convinced that the case is being handled correctly, fairly, aggressively, but also judiciously. That simply doesn't exist now. Because of Nifong's early comments and subsequent silence, whatever he does now is suspect.
    I do.

    Bob in Pacifica writes,
    Durga will come in and make observations based on his experiences with race and racism in the U.S. Others will argue the case through a feminist lens.
    Don't forget class. The "Hey B*tch, thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt" quote has gender, race and class issues built into it. I think the class part is what makes it a special sauce. Sharon quoted this:
    The only way all sides will ever be convinced that this case has been handled fairly is if someone other than Mike Nifong handles it. The defendants deserve that; the accuser deserves that; and most important, the people deserve that.
    I like the part about "the accuser deserves it." We know the defense would like a new prosecutor. Duh... But do we think the accuser wants a new prosecutor? Or is the editorialist just one of those people who knows what's best for the accuser? Oh, and "the people"... The editorialist purports to speak for "the people." "The people" just voted Nifong in. I regard that and several of the subsequent polls as some indication that Nifong is regarded by "the people" as the appropriate person to prosecute this case. In fact, I think "the people" will be disappointed if he is successfully railroaded off the case by the disinformation campaign of the defendants' supporters. But I don't think they will be disappointed. I don't think this editorial speaks to anybody but that small group of people who would feel joy today if Nifong suddenly, without comment dropped the case. I don't know whether there are a lot of people who feel that way, or very few, but I don't think anybody should concern themselves with pandering to that group.

    Wow, PB: you didn't like me linking to one of the most liberal-minded of the talking heads? I admit; I am surprised. I think the defense would LOVE facing this prosecutor, (who hasn't tried a major felony case in over 7 years), the same one who promised that the DNA would separate the guilty from the innocent. Less than 50% of the "people" voted Nifong in: not exactly a ringing endorsement, would you agree? I think you misread the editorial: she still backs Nifong, still believes in the righteousness of his prosecution of the accused. BUT she sees the same problem a lot of people, many of them pro-prosecution, many former prosecutors, see: Nifong, and the public perception of his handling of this case, is a problem to the successful prosecution of this case. Estrich wants this case to go forward. Why wouldn't Nifong want someone, hand-picked by him to review his case? Why are you so resistant to the idea? How could it not help the accuser, how could it be anything but bad news for the accused? Unless a dispassionate, independent, "new set of eyes," says there is not a prosecutable case here? And, the kicker is, whoever it is WON'T let it go. All the State needs is her word, and as long as she's willing to testify, the case goes to trial. I don't have a problem with that. Nothing would change, except the public perception: if someone, (other than the grand jury which will indict if the DA wants an indictment), says "the case has legs, it needs to be prosecuted, it needs to go forward: there is enough evidence against these three defendants even if there is nothing but her ID: I can see Mr. Nifong finding her credible." How could that possibly hurt the case? Nifong tainted the process by his early, and often, comments. I do not think he is "out to get" anyone. But he broke all sorts of rules, ethical and otherwise, when he spoke the way he did, at the very beginning of the investigation. And he is abandoning the AV now, by not even giving a non-detailed but adamant statement that he is ready to convict the accused. Forget I was the one who gave the link, PB. Read the article: Susan Estrich is NOT on the side of the accused. But she does care about the "right thing" apparently. Unless, of course, she was the one who thought putting Mike Dukakis in a tank for a photo op was a good idea.

    Cpinva, You wrote:
    az, the 46 need not, and shouldn't, do anything, absent a subpoena. why should they? let me repeat for those of you on drugs: the police and DA, in a criminal case, are not your friends. they are trying to find a party to arrest & indict, for whatever the crime is. it's what they do.
    In order to successfully investigate criminal complaints, police need the help of honest witnesses. So if you are a winess to a crime, whether it be a rape, or a false accusation of rape, or some combination of the two, it is your duty as a citizen to come forward at the earliest moment possible with your information. If you have a fear that you might be falsely accused yourself, by all means bring a videotape recorder for your police interview, or, if you truly uncomfortable with the world, bring a lawyer. If you prefer instead to become a vigilante, don't be surprised if the public views you as a pariah, as has happened to the Duke students here. You wrote:
    anyone who would willingly talk to the police or prosecutor, w/o their atty. present, will be paying collect phone bills from prison.
    I think a lot of police officers who go into the profession with some sort of idealistic vision of the law get jaded over time by the lack of public support for what they do. To many people, the police are just the pills who stop them from driving at their preferred speeds. I'm no police sycophant, but I am nothing but grateful that there are people willing to take action on the complaints filed by everyday citizens, and I consider it a constitutional obligation that those complaints be honestly addressed. That the Duke students view things otherwise is unfortunate for them, their school, and even for the sport of lacrosse bizarrely enough. No respect.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#47)
    by wumhenry on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 10:49:02 PM EST
    I don't think this editorial speaks to anybody but that small group of people who would feel joy today if Nifong suddenly, without comment dropped the case. I don't know whether there are a lot of people who feel that way, or very few, but I don't think anybody should concern themselves with pandering to that group.
    Should anyone concern himself with pandering to people who would feel joy if the defendants suddenly confessed guilt?
    In order to successfully investigate criminal complaints, police need the help of honest witnesses. So if you are a winess to a crime, whether it be a rape, or a false accusation of rape, or some combination of the two, it is your duty as a citizen to come forward at the earliest moment possible with your information. .... I am nothing but grateful that there are people willing to take action on the complaints filed by everyday citizens, and I consider it a constitutional obligation that those complaints be honestly addressed. That the Duke students view things otherwise is unfortunate for them, their school, and even for the sport of lacrosse
    That presupposes, fer crissakes, that they have incriminating knowledge. And ignores the fact that one of the defendants voluntarily submitted to prolonged interrogation without an attorney present.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#48)
    by azbballfan on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 11:04:14 PM EST
    PB, Thanks for responding, I was just ignoring the post. There are some who argue that the absence of lacrosse players providing corroborating testimony in itself should compel the DA to drop charges because certainly no-one could maintain a wall of silence amongst the 20 somethin players who chose to participate. Within the same crowd, are those who argue that none of the players are wrong for not coming forward. A single defense with two diametric views of what's right and wrong. Certainly this opens the door for the prosecution to establish believability in the av's story. Absent a consenting and open defense, this looks damning. And I am so tired of the whiners who call for Nifong to recuse himself from this case. They are the same people who knew for a fact that he would fail in the election. Wishful thinking that a 25+ year career prosecutor would forget his job because of a few Duke alumns who get upset because the police chose to actually investigate and prosecute cases against lame students. Nifong knows his constituency - the local Durham residents. You may have your own prejudices and problems with the Durham local, but that isn't going to affect the prosecution of this case. "All (wo)/men are treated equal" Unless of course you consider yourself 'elite'.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#49)
    by JK on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 11:05:41 PM EST
    PB, You are absolutely right that this case is thoroughly embedded with issues of race, class, and gender. One wonders that if those elements were absent (or if they were organized differently) whether you would still take the position that any witness to a crime (or a false accusation of a crime) has an absolute duty to speak to the authorities. One can imagine situations where a group of "known gang members" are being investigated by an overzealous and possibly racist prosecutor, and even though the individuals were not involved in any crime, it would still not be advisable to cooperate with the DA. Or would it be their civic duty to cooperate, even if they were being falsely accused and it appeared (both to the accused and their attorneys) that the DA was going to go forward with a prosecution against at least some subset of the "gang members," no matter what information was brought forward?

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#50)
    by azbballfan on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 11:11:35 PM EST
    wumhenry wrote:
    That presupposes, fer crissakes, that they have incriminating knowledge. And ignores the fact that one of the defendants voluntarily submitted to prolonged interrogation without an attorney present.
    No, is presupposes that if they have decriminating knowledge that they would want to have it recorded with the investigators. It doesn't ignore the fact that one of the interrogated players who claimed Seligmann wasn't at the party now asks his lawyer to set up appointments and exchanges of information with the prosecution while the rest of his teammates refuse to answer questions.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#51)
    by january on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 11:35:45 PM EST
    PB said,
    I'm no police sycophant, but I am nothing but grateful that there are people willing to take action on the complaints filed by everyday citizens, and I consider it a constitutional obligation that those complaints be honestly addressed. That the Duke students view things otherwise is unfortunate for them, their school, and even for the sport of lacrosse bizarrely enough. No respect.
    PB, you have no idea how the Duke students view this. You know they are exercising their constitutional rights to remain silent, and that's all you know. You can speculate with all the sanctimonious condescension you want to, but that's all it is. Speculation.

    Sharon, You wrote:
    Wow, PB: you didn't like me linking to one of the most liberal-minded of the talking heads? I admit; I am surprised.
    Maybe I'm not a liberal. I could live with that. Creating a class of special prosecutors for celebrity cases is to me about as sensible as the idea of creating nationally funded grieving centers for people upset by celebrity deaths. Wumhenry, You wrote:
    Should anyone concern himself with pandering to people who would feel joy if the defendants suddenly confessed guilt?
    Absolutely not. Got anyone in mind? You wrote:
    That presupposes, fer crissakes, that they have incriminating knowledge. And ignores the fact that one of the defendants voluntarily submitted to prolonged interrogation without an attorney present.
    It doesn't do either. For crissakes. If you were investigating this crime, you'd want to know such innocent things as where people were at what time, and where people weren't at what time, and what they heard and what they didn't. Because it would help you figure out what is TRUE. The fact that three other people told their experiences of the evening would not make the other FORTY ODD WITNESSES/NON-WITNESSES opinions irrelevant. Hi January, You wrote: PB,
    you have no idea how the Duke students view this. You know they are exercising their constitutional rights to remain silent, and that's all you know. You can speculate with all the sanctimonious condescension you want to, but that's all it is. Speculation.
    It's hard to assume "the best" of people when they don't do that which would actually be "the best."

    PB: If Nifong had wished, he could have compelled the players to come down to his office, or the police station. He had no problem compelling the DNA samples from them. Take them, one by one, but allow each of them to have his attorney present. If they are still reluctant or refuse to talk, offer them immunity for everything less than the rape and assault. Just as some on this board want to explain the AV's reluctance to talk to Shelton as being a result of his attitude toward her, his perceived lack of sympathy, etc., can't one reason that the reason the Duke players did not cooperate is that they felt the same antipathy and hostility from the police and from Nifong? There were, after all, threats by the DA that the guys who were at the party could be charged with obstruction of justice, aiding/abetting, and there could have been noise violation charges, and there was the underage drinking that all of the under 21 guys participated in. I can imagine that the Buchanan housemates who did, each of them, provide detailed statements over the 6-8 hours they were questioned, may have sensed that everyone at the house that night was, to the police and/or the DA, a suspect at that point. None of us know: did Nifong ask them to come in to talk, one at a time, with counsel present? Did he offer them limited immunity for other offenses that could have arisen from that night? A good number of them seemed to have other charges against them that could have been (and some were) reinstated for no other reason than that they were at the party that night.

    imho posted:
    Turns into a rape claim from what?
    january posted:
    From a "passed out drunk", or a "groped but not forced to have sex."
    My post was in response to this from Jo:
    Maybe it wasn't exactly verbal versions of the story that frustrated him. First he finds her unable to respond, apparently passed out in the car. Then he realizes she's faking (mouth-breathing). Then she resists getting out of the car, and wont cooperate (wont walk, wont talk). Then it turns into a claim of rape (he is told by third party). I can see where this would seem like "different versions" or a "changing story".
    Turns into a rape claim from what? The initial claim of rape isn't a different version or changing story, it is her first telling of what is wrong with her, she had not yet said she was "groped but not forced to have sex." imho posted:
    he should have called another officer to speak with her at the hospital.
    january posted:
    Shelton found out that she was claiming rape from another officer, so there was another officer involved. She never told Shelton she was raped. Plus, he already had reason to think she was not being honest (with regard to her incapacitation). I still say his reactions were understandable, or did you want him to have sensitivity training for dealing with passed-out drunk(s)-but-possibly-faking-it?
    If he was frustrated with her before she reported the rape and suspected she was being dishonest about her incapicitation, he should not have questioned her about the rape. Officer Barfield may have been in a better position to question her, but Shelton did not have him do it. It is obvious Shelton's questioning of the accuser was a failure. Before she spoke to Shelton at the hospital she told someone at Durham access (maybe officer Barfield) she had been raped and after she spoke to Shelton at the hospital she told the S.A.N.E. examiner she had been raped. She later told investigators she had been raped.

    SharonInJax posted:
    Just as some on this board want to explain the AV's reluctance to talk to Shelton as being a result of his attitude toward her, his perceived lack of sympathy, etc., can't one reason that the reason the Duke players did not cooperate is that they felt the same antipathy and hostility from the police and from Nifong?
    If she is telling the truth she had just been violently assaulted. If they are telling the truth (through their lawyers) "nothing happened." Her reluctance, as it relates to perceived attitudes of the investigator(s), is easier to explain than theirs. SharonInJax posted:
    There were, after all, threats by the DA that the guys who were at the party could be charged with obstruction of justice, aiding/abetting, and there could have been noise violation charges, and there was the underage drinking that all of the under 21 guys participated in.
    They stopped talking BEFORE Nifong made any public statements. If they did not cooperate in the investigation of a violent rape to avoid noise violations and underage drinking charges, they deserved to have their lacrosse season cancelled. While the players have the legal right to remain silent, the University administrators have the right to decide that decision was not in keeping with the standards they expect from students representing the University. McFadyen was suspended for what I consider a far lesser offense than not cooperating with a police investigation. He had a legal right to write that e-mail, but it was an embarrassment to the University, same goes for the "Blue Wall of Silence."

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#56)
    by wumhenry on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 08:57:19 AM EST
    PB wrote:
    Absolutely not. Got anyone in mind?
    Yes.

    The fact remains, imho, Nifong could have compelled them to come in, but he did not. Do you have any theories as to why he would not, and did not, do as I suggested in my post? True, the players cancelled the en masse appearance for questioning. That is the only time I have heard that the DA contacted them to come in but they refused. He could have slapped a material witness warrant/subpoena on them, BUT he would have had to deal with them being represented by counsel. Why not do that? In all the sound bites offered by Nifong, I never heard him say he had contacted the players, after the first arrangement for them to come in fell apart, and that they had refused to come in. I never heard that he had contacted any of their attorneys and requested that they bring their clients in for interviews, other than Nifong's public appeals in the media. I'm sure we would have heard something about that, if it had happened.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#58)
    by azbballfan on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 09:36:23 AM EST
    Sharon wrote:
    The fact remains, imho, Nifong could have compelled them to come in, but he did not. Do you have any theories as to why he would not, and did not, do as I suggested in my post?
    The initial sign of the 'wall of silence' came when the players showed up to provide DNA evidence. The news reported that one of their lawyers posted himself at the front door of the office and reminded every player not to talk or say anything. Nifong later tried to arrange a meeting with all the players and was rebuked. Nifong has tried repeatedly to talk to the players - their response: "Talk to my lawyer" Their lawyer's response: "Are you charging my client?" The lawyers know that unless charges are brought for a crime, none of the players can be compelled to testify as to what happened. No crime? Then it's none of your damned business what went on at the party. Now that Nifong has brought charges against three attendees of the party, he has the power to subpeona testimony from the others. Their silence clearly indicates a lack of decriminating evidence.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#59)
    by wumhenry on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 11:27:38 AM EST
    Their silence clearly indicates a lack of decriminating evidence.
    Non sequitur. If would make better sense to say that their (current) silence indicates that they don't trust Nifong. I sure wouldn't, if I were in their shoes. It may have been a tactical mistake for the players and their lawyers to say as much as they already have, when Nifong has yet to put his cards on the table. Revealing exculpatory evidence before the AV has testified on the record gives her a chance to tailor her story to avoid pitfalls.

    az: You said
    Nifong has tried repeatedly to talk to the players - their response: "Talk to my lawyer" Their lawyer's response: "Are you charging my client?"
    Source?
    The lawyers know that unless charges are brought for a crime, none of the players can be compelled to testify as to what happened.
    That is simply not true for any of the players who were not involved in the rape/assault. Nifong could have offered limited immunity, negating the 5th amendment protection. And, being petty,
    Their silence clearly indicates a lack of decriminating evidence.
    No such word: try "exculpatory" instead.

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#61)
    by azbballfan on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 01:38:36 PM EST
    Sharon, The police cannot make you tell them what happened at your last soccer party. They have no right to the information unless they have evidence that a crime happened. With some evidence of a crime, they bring charges against the suspects. Then, the prosecutors have the right to subpeona your testimony. They need to prove that the questions they ask are relevant to the charges brought. Otherwise, it is your right not to answer the questions. It isn't your right not to incriminate yourself, it is your right to privacy. Unless the police can prove that you know something about a crime, they have no right to expect you to let them know anything about you, your friends, or what happened the last time you got together. Thanks for the catch, but exculpatory evidence would only include evidence about the specific charges brought against those three charged. Decriminalizing would be a better word as it presumes that a crime could have occurred that the DA is unaware of.

    From a press conference earlier this afternoon: Duke Lacrosse Team To Resume Play Next Season

    Re: Three Duke Lacrosse Players Picked in National (none / 0) (#63)
    by weezie on Mon Jun 05, 2006 at 02:52:14 PM EST
    Hey, where did everybody go? We're off the main page of TL. Are we breaking up with each other?!

    wumhenry posted:
    Revealing exculpatory evidence before the AV has testified on the record gives her a chance to tailor her story to avoid pitfalls.
    You make a very important point here. There has been a lot of talk all along on this site about how the players should be talking openly to the police and the DA because -- against ALL legal advice -- it is somehow "the right thing to do." And a lot of the defense of that position has been that Nifong has a publicly sworn duty to act as an honest prosecutor. Very little has been said, however, about the implications of this position if the AV is NOT being honest in her allegations. If the AV is being dishonest it is not so much that the players should not be providing information to Nifong (as the "right thing to do") but that they need to avoid providing that same information -- even indirectly through the DAs office or through the media -- to AV with the potential for her to misuse that information to craft a more plausible -- yet still dishonest -- story about her allegations with less chance of tripping herself up in the process. If Nifong has a publicly sworn duty to be honest in his handling of the case, there is no such publicly sworn duty on behalf of the AV. It is not justifiable as "the right thing to do" to assert that the players have a duty to provide -- even indirectly -- that same information to the AV.

    A new thread is here. Back on the front page.