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Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police for Months

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:46:33 PM EST
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The U.S. does not approve of torture, claims President Bush. Does anyone have any doubt that Ziad Khalaf Raja al-Karbouly, the Iraqi customs inspector who turned on Zaqarwi after being arrested and held for months by the Jordanian police, talked as a result of being subjected to torture? Connect the dots. More here.

An Iraqi customs agent secretly working with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's terror cell spilled the beans on the group after he was arrested, Jordanian officials tell ABC News. Ziad Khalaf Raja al-Karbouly was arrested by Jordanian intelligence forces last spring.

Officials say Karbouly confessed to his role in the terror cell and provided crucial information on the names of Zarqawi commanders and locations of their safe houses. Karbouly also admitted to his role in the kidnappings of two Moroccan embassy employees, four Iraqi National Guards and an Iraqi finance ministry official.

In a videotaped confession, Karbouly said he acted on direct orders from Zarqawi.

So now we use information gained from torture to murder our target. What makes us different from them?

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    • Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police for Months | 66 comments (66 topical)
    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#1)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:59:53 PM EST
    Even if your accusation is true TL there is much that makes us different from them. If you lived in Jordan, Egypt or Saddam's Iraq could you openly criticize your government through a blog? I think not.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:05:20 PM EST
    Slado, So the belief that one is better justifies what? Zarqawi? And whom else? What else? What is the limit of we are better? I'm just curious, bro. At what level do we make a real attempt to SHOW we're better. We don't even think Iraqi civilians are worth dying for, unless absolutely necessary. If we can kill some first and avoid our own peril, then we will. How does this, when occupying another nation, evidence that we are better? Do you really think a majority of Iraqis think we are morally superior to ALL the factions fighting? But what can they do? Just sit back and hope they don't die before we leave.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#3)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:05:50 PM EST
    Here Here rogan. There's nothing wrong with passing judgement on the US Government but we don't need to resort to moral relativism to make our point.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:07:31 PM EST
    shorter wingnut response: It's always OK when we do it.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:09:41 PM EST
    Rogan, Google "Leonard Peltier" if you want info about old American political prisoners, or "Menonites and WWI" or "Eugene Debs" or crack users serving life; or google "Gitmo" if you want info about the new. Or new old. Or whatever. Perhaps the point back then wasn't we were essentially the same as the Kremlin and KGB, but that we shouldn't have used their immorality as the basis for our unimaginative and shortsighted "morality."

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:11:02 PM EST
    Dadler, Our military is rebuilding schools, insfastructure etc... Do all Iraqi's appreciate this? No. Do most? I hope so but who knows. If they support our side they know the difference between the military that rarely kills innocents in crossfire and the insurgents who deliberately target them. If they don't support us then I imagine they don't.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:18:57 PM EST
    Slado, I am fully aware that we're building things here and there, but they do not make up for the CHAOS we have unleashed there. For heaven's sake, I could respect it if you just said, yes it's horrible, but in the end the horror will be worth it. This notion that we're just over there building schools like made and roads and what not, it's just nuts. We are doing SOME infrastructure work. But electricity is still sh*t, security is sh*t, and we are seeing all the effects of the lack of/ignored post-war planning. We screwed the pooch long ago, my friend. I don't fault individual soldiers who have good hearts and good intentions, but we've sent a whole nation into a large human experiment and it's not looking good right now to me. If it's looking dandy to you, then so be it, we can differ. I just think, for a single nation, it's almost been as long as ALL of WWII took, and we are certainly no closer to stability that at the similar period then. If anything, we're much further. That tells me something. Something not all that encouraging. But I could be wrong. I only hope we're not making excuses twenty years from now.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:35:29 PM EST
    Government but we don't need to resort to moral relativism to make our point.
    Thats exactly what you are doing. Gee you dont even know the right terms in your propaganda manual

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#9)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:36:56 PM EST
    Dadler, Agreed its not dandy in Iraq. But as I've stated before the decision has been made. Now that we're there why not win or at least tie? I get the impression that 'some" on this site are rooting for defeat so they can be proven right. Why bother. If we fail then you will be. Why hope that we do? Am I wrong? Also WWII lasted from 1939 to 1945. Our invovolvement officially began in 1941.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#10)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:44:03 PM EST
    I think its about time we instituted a new "Godmins Law" about referencing WWII in relation to the Iraq occupation. This has gone on long enough.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:45:43 PM EST
    "Godwins Law."

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:45:59 PM EST
    Slado, Since there is no defintion of winning, we can declare victory and get out at any time.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#13)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:46:19 PM EST
    Agreed Jondee. Both sides abuse this refrence.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:48:39 PM EST
    Ernesto we would look even dumber then you think we do if we "declared victory" now. At the very least we should leave when Iraq won't self distruct when we do. See Pottery Barn theory.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:48:47 PM EST
    Slado - Do they? I think you guys are ahead, say 511 to 4.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:57:13 PM EST
    At the very least we should leave when Iraq won't self distruct when we do.
    As opposed to self-destructing with us there.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:57:52 PM EST
    Maybe we're different because we don't behead civilians.
    No, but we still execute them.
    The Iraqi police charge that American forces executed the civilians, including a 75-year-old woman and a 6-month-old baby.
    Marines went to the home of a 52-year-old disabled Iraqi, took him outside and shot him four times in the face.
    So we don't cut of their heads, we just shoot them in the face. Ain't technology great.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#18)
    by Andreas on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:13:04 PM EST
    To answer the question: There is a significant difference. The terrorists in power in the USA are a real threat to the existence of mankind. These terrorists own thousands of nuclear weapons and other WMDs.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:26:26 PM EST
    Sailor - Hey, you missed the most important part of the article you linked to.
    The U.S military said Saturday it had found no wrongdoing in the March 15 raid on a home in Ishaqi that left nine Iraqi civilians dead.
    et al - I find it strange and stranger when I read all the comments by the Left. One would think that the Left didn't want him dead.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#20)
    by rigel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:32:37 PM EST
    i, personally, as a commenter on this blog and not the poster of said article, wish the americans a swift defeat. (and before you say the equivalent of "love it or leave it" i should tell you that i am attempting to live and establish residence in another country already) it appears that's the only way we'll be willing to pull out of the region.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:17:02 PM EST
    Karbouly gets the 25 million then. Right. Maybe the torture was worth it or was Bush lying there was no 25 million afterall. Or is that part of the agreement one must be tortured first for bringing to justice the worlds most notorius boogeyman. I think Bush stiffs Karbouly.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:28:47 PM EST
    Hm. I think you just made the argument that torture works, yes?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:48:06 PM EST
    Murder Zarqaawi? are you kidding me. Wow.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:53:30 PM EST
    i, personally, as a commenter on this blog and not the poster of said article, wish the americans a swift defeat. (and before you say the equivalent of "love it or leave it" i should tell you that i am attempting to live and establish residence in another country already) it appears that's the only way we'll be willing to pull out of the region.
    i, personally, as a commenter on this blog and not the poster of said article, wish rigel a slow and painful death.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:06:14 PM EST
    I'm confused, where did it say he was tortured again?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:11:22 PM EST
    from Huffington Post (quoting Media Matters about Bill Bennet): "Well, they probably killed this guy a couple of weeks ago but held the news, and this is to come out today to balance out the Haditha accusations." (Some newsturd claims that someone in the liberal media will say this after the US assasinated al-Zarqawi.) Sounds like some wingnut's been reading TL. Keep up the good work J.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:49:52 PM EST
    It is now okay to use torture and assasination? Sounds very dangerous for any of our troops that possibly get captured by the enemy. I don't consider myself to be a coward, but I am so glad I didn't sign up for the armed forces during Bush's Reign of Terror.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#28)
    by Scrutinizer on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:51:15 PM EST
    Jondee- "Godwin's Law" is stupid, and an easy way for some to avoid some unsavory truths about the way our leadership is taking this country. As far as comparing this debacle with other military adventures we've been involved in, what do you suggest? The Mexican War? The Spanish-American War? The actions of the US military in support of United Fruit in Central America? Viet Nam?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:08:19 PM EST
    The US doesn't "approve of torture" but do participate in a rendition program.
    If the U.S. is giving prisinors to people when we know they will be tortured, and using the information gained by that torture, then I would say we not only approve of torture, but we are encouraging and participating in the process.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:53:11 PM EST
    Scrut - I couldnt agree more. And, I dont know how long you've been around here, but WWII is constantly evoked by the wingers for its "Greatest Generation," last-good-war emotional resonance. Its entered the Right Wing thought stream and become a meme that is held up like a magic talisman at some point in any debate with the Right. And its bogus.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:07:17 PM EST
    I think over at NRO they reference many other wars rather than our national top two of Vietnam and WWII. Hanson and Macubbin in particular bring in other historical comparisons. Come to think of it, the American right frequently makes reference to the Khmer Rouge, China, the USSR, Bosnia, and the Malay States. I think maybe it's true that you guys over here really don't see what makes us "different from them." That may come from looking in only one side of the balance scales.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:30:13 PM EST
    No its from looking at the balance scales while devesting from the assumption that if we're not the greatest, most wonderfulest forever and ever and ever hip-hip-hooray, that life has lost its meaning.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:32:13 PM EST
    Torture and assassination have always been OK for clandestine ops. That's why they're secret--so the American public (and Congress) won't find out about them. The documents then get declassified 30 years later, when most people have forgotten the events or never heard of them.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#34)
    by John Mann on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:47:31 PM EST
    et al - I find it strange and stranger when I read all the comments by the Left. One would think that the Left didn't want him dead.
    Why would "the left" want him dead, Jim? According to you, "the left" wants the US to lose the war in Iraq - so why would they want Zarqawi, the great Prince of al-Qaeda, the masterful fighter who couldn't operate a machine gun, out of the picture? On the other hand, he made a damn fine bogeyman for "the right", no?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:10:46 PM EST
    Ah, Christianity...the religion of bloodsport...err I mean peace.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:16:46 PM EST
    Your point, TL, is well taken and I'm glad someone has the courage to say it succinctly without attaching a loyalty oath on the end. The only thing truly scarier than your point is the way commentators try to refute it by saying we're different because we can blog and because we don't behead. Is that really what you want your country to stand for? We allow our best principles, such as the Bill of Rights, to become collateral damage in the GWOT and then celebrate that we haven't yet degenerated into using the worst practices of our enemies? Is that what we stand for, not resorting to beheadings and being able to voice dissent on an obviously closely monitored internet with a government that justifies defying the law of the land? Wow. That's a new low. As Steve Earle says, "It just gets tougher every day, to sit around and watch it while it slips away."

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:48:11 PM EST
    Going to get hammered no doubt but I am geniunely interested in understanding whether those who are critical of our killing Zarqawi believe we are engaged in a war against Islamic Radicals? If so do you believe it is possible that we could lose? If you don't believe we are engaged in a war with Islamic Radicals then please explain your views of who is attacking us?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dusty on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:11:57 AM EST
    "So now we use information gained from torture to murder our target." If it's good information, otherwise not. "What makes us different from them?" We're the good guys. If there's anything else, talk to the hand.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#39)
    by cpinva on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:29:17 AM EST
    rogan said:
    Maybe we're different because we don't behead civilians. Or because we actually put people on trial for killing Iraqi civilians, as compared to Zarqawi who openly and deliberately killed Iraqi civilians as a military tactic?
    maybe we're different because we attacked a country that presented no overt threat to us? just a thought. slado said:
    Our military is rebuilding schools, insfastructure etc...
    well, yeah, since we destroyed them in the first place, seems only reasonable. do all iraqi's appreciate this? beats the hell out me why they would, they never asked us to attack them to begin with. do i appreciate the arsonist rebuilding my burned out home? hell no, it's the least i expect! pierre legrand said, in part:
    If you don't believe we are engaged in a war with Islamic Radicals then please explain your views of who is attacking us?
    i believe we are engaged in a conflict with multiple parties, depending on where you are. in afghanistan, it's the taliban and war lords, both vying for the poppy production. economics. in iraq, it's al-queda, and saddam's gang, along with those on neither side, who just want the invaders out. see pierre, it's never as simple as some would have you believe. do i think zarqawi's death will have an appreciable effect on the "insurgency" in iraq? nope, not really. simply put, it's "wack-a-mole", someone else will pop up to take his place, much like the drug cartel leaders in s. america, or the hydra of greek mythology. we've been trying this same approach domestically for a hundred years. we're still trying. the closest legitimate comparison is vietnam. we've already seen some vietnamization occur: we need to win the "hearts & minds" of the iraqi people; multiple tours of duty; an insurgency where there is no bright line between friend and foe; a president who's popularity has dropped like a stone, in large part due to the growing unpopularity of the war; ballooning budget deficits, needed to finance both the war and tax cuts at home, etc. do we see a pattern emerging here? personally, i'm waiting for my all time favorite vietnamism: the light at the end of the tunnel. once that pops out of some general's mouth, you can just assume we've lost. really, the only thing missing at this point is the draft.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:37:12 AM EST
    really, the only thing missing at this point is the draft.
    And that's why this one is going to drag on longer than Vietnam. Great post cpinva. If the draft were to return you would see shills like narius and the rest quickly pipe down and disappear.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:19:24 AM EST
    John Mann - FYI
    rhetorical: of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected
    But since you answered... The comments speak for themselves. Jo writes:
    It is now okay to use torture and assasination? Sounds very dangerous for any of our troops that possibly get captured by the enemy.
    Actually, this post started out with:
    The U.S. does not approve of torture, claims President Bush. Does anyone have any doubt that Ziad Khalaf Raja al-Karbouly,
    Yes, I do. Do you have proof that he was? And why do you think anything that we do, or don't do, will have any effect on the actions of terrorist who routinely kill and torture men, women and children? Datrrell - Actually, what you have is a bunch of claims re torture. You know what a claim is, don't you? rigell writes:
    i should tell you that i am attempting to live and establish residence in another country already)
    Please don't leave any lights on. And please, please, please hurry up.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#43)
    by Scrutinizer on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:41:37 AM EST
    Jondee-- Thanks. I've been around a long while, but have only been semi-lurking at TL for a short time. I make comparisons with The War After The War To End All Wars because that war is so popular with the "we have to kill 'em all" crowd--if I say that the Iraq Debacle is like Viet Nam, it's an instant turn-off. You're right that War 2 has been sanitized in popular culture beyond recognition. War 2 in Europe was probably inevitable, given the way The Great War ended. (Gotta love all those loving nicknames for wars. My favorites are The War of Jenkins Ear and, from Jesus' General, The Iraq Phase of the Eternal Struggle to Subjugate Brown People, although it hurts, having to give attribution to a christofascist heterosexual nutjob). War 2 in the Pacific was nothing but a race war between America and Japan, where both sides were waging a bitter war of extermination. Some US commanders in the Pacific, most notably Curtis "There are no innocent civilians" Lemay should have been tried for war crimes right alongside their Japanese counterparts. But if people don't want to talk about war 2, we can always talk about the various imperialist and colonial actions fought by the US military. For a recent example of US military policy handled correctly, look at Kosovo (which the Republican Congress, led by Delay, refused to support.) Or look at the first Gulf War, when Bush the Relatively Sane built a real international coalition, fought a limited engagement for a limited purpose with sufficient troop strength and almost complete international support, then picked up his toys and went home. Comparing that to Bush the Semi-Lucid is frightening---no real coalition, no real idea (or at least no honest public disclosure) of the reason, no plan to get out, no significant international support, and we've been told that getting our troops out of that mess is a job for the next President. The only thing crazier is an American public who kept him in power out of fear and to protect family values.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#44)
    by Scrutinizer on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:35:01 AM EST
    PPK-
    And why do you think anything that we do, or don't do, will have any effect on the actions of terrorist who routinely kill and torture men, women and children?
    Some of us don't think that anything we say will have an effect on fearful, ignorant, or venal people who support an immoral war of agression against a country that was never a threat to our security, while the true mastermind of 9/11(!) and his enablers (bin-Laden and the Taliban) are allowed to regroup and regain power in Afghanistan---but we keep trying. Considering that 50% of the American public think that the Dems at this point could do a better job with Iraq than the Republicans, that a clear majority of Americans feel that the Iraq Debacle has not contributed to the long term security of the US, and that it was a mistake to go there in the first place, maybe some people are starting to listen. I'm not for enabling the terrorists, PPJ, I'm all for getting rid of terror and radical theocratic fundamentalism wherever it flourishes. The sad truth is that the Bush Administration is enabling the terrorists by giving them a cause, a safe place in which to operate, and an opportunity to learn to kill more effectively. But hey, our family values are safe, right?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:29:35 AM EST
    That we are even having this conversation is a sign of our moral superiority; you can bet al quaeda didn't have qualms about killing innocents - in fact that is their modus operandi. But it will all get worse before it gets better; the nattering voices on the left will cease as terrorist attacks increase.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:49:03 AM EST
    Scrutinizer writes:
    I'm not for enabling the terrorists, PPJ, I'm all for getting rid of terror and radical theocratic fundamentalism wherever it flourishes.
    Then your claim is that the Left's constant attacks on our position re getting rid of terrorists will help get rid of terrorists. How so? Do you claim that what the terrorists have to see as an attempt by the Left to get rid of the Bush administration and the Demos constant chants of "withdraw" do not lead the terrorists to believe that if they just hang on then we will leave and they can just walk in? As for your election claims, we shall see. The one good thing the Repubs have going for them is the current crop of Demos. And that's a shame.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#47)
    by Scrutinizer on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:42:45 AM EST
    PPJ-
    Then your claim is that the Left's constant attacks on our position re getting rid of terrorists will help get rid of terrorists.
    I really have no idea what you mean by that.
    How so? Do you claim that what the terrorists have to see as an attempt by the Left to get rid of the Bush administration and the Demos constant chants of "withdraw" do not lead the terrorists to believe that if they just hang on then we will leave and they can just walk in?
    First, you are under the impression that "the terrorists" make up most of the insurgency in Iraq. If you conflate terrorist with insurgent I suppose you've come up with a nice tautology, but the truth is more complicated---Iraq is (at least) a three-sided sectarian civil war (think Lebanon, only not quite as muddled) that is not going to go away any time soon. Some terror groups are taking advantage of the situation to train and recruit new members, just as happened during the Lebanon mess. But the US is not going to be able to fix the problem in Iraq on it's own, especially since it created the mess in the first place. It's going to take a genuine multinational effort, and it's probably going to require more peacekeeping troops on the ground. The difference is that they need to be peacekeeping troops, not troops engaged in combat, and there has to be sufficient force on the ground to provide real security in the country, not just a single enclave like the Green Zone. Your argument about the "terrorists" just hanging on until we leave is well-taken: in fact, the insurgents don't have to win--they just need to avoid losing. But they can hang on in that country indefinitely---look at how the Vietnamese held on in Viet Nam for over a quarter of a century through first French and later US occupation. Or look at how the Mujahdeen held out in Afghanistan during Russian occupation. For that matter, look at how long the insurgents in the United States held out against Great Britain. It doesn't take chants of withdrawal (from more people than "Demos" btw) to blind the insurgents to those facts. They will hang on forever, if that's what it takes. An argument is usually made at this point that "Well, it's unfortunate that this whole mess, and we can't pull out, because you can't unring a bell." I say, "Well, you can stop pulling on the bloody rope!" The US is not going to be able to fix this problem by itself. Period. The best thing that we can do in Iraq is to provide a responsible handover of security duties to multinational forces and internal security, and stop contributing to the problem. "Getting rid of terror" is not going to be accomplished by military means. Ever. Military force can be useful, especially in the case of state-sponsered terrorism. We took that approach in Afghanistan and it was working, up until Bush decided to launch his Grand Adventure in Iraq. The problem is that terror networks are not usually state-sponsered, and the application of military tools to that problem is a waste of time and resources. Its not as if there are a limited number of terrorists and if we just kill enough of them, they'll stop. The Israeli experience puts that argument to rest. Terror as a weapon will probably never go away completely. Terror attacks did not start with 9/11(!), they've been going on forever. Terror is an effective force multiplier---it gets your story out there out of all proportion to the size of your group and to the physical damage you cause---ask Castro, or the Irgun. The response to terror attacks by a frightened or frustrated government almost always do more damage to the foundations of a country than the damage suffered by the attack, 9/11(!) not excepted.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:18:15 PM EST
    "What makes us different from them"? Well lets see-how about the fact that we don't: behead our enemies; randomly blow up innocent women and children to make a point; use innocent women and childern as shields; attack from houses of prayer to try to prevent return fire; preach death to all who do not subscribe to our particular "religion"; attempt to subvert, undermine, conquer and impose sharia law throughout the world; treat women like property and murder them for improper dress or speech; preach the desirability of illiteracy, poverty, ignorance, superstition, hatred, vengeance and retribution, etc. The list is endless and cleary points out the fallacy of moral equivalence. War is not an attractive exercise. This nation engages in it to protect its citizens, its interests and those of other nations. The culture whose mores you are holding up as equal has been taught for 1400 years to invade, murder and steal the property of anyone who will not "submit" to its will. I realize that facts are carefully disregarded by the left, as they invariably conflict with your beliefs. But sometimes they just can't be gotten around.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#49)
    by Scrutinizer on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:53:16 PM EST
    OldPup- We don't behead our enemies, we just "detain" people we suspect of being enemies with no trial, no communication with the outside world, and no recourse to legal protection; we kill non-combatant men, women, and children whose only offense is to be in the way of the bombs we are dropping on a country that was not an imminent threat to us in any way, we don't use women as shields, but we do kill them at checkpoints, or employ mercenaries who hunt them from moving cars; our soldiers kill innocent civilians in towns as retribution; we have right wing pundits here in the US who call for Moslems to be converted to Christianity or to be killed, and we have an extreme right wing of so-called Christian fundamentalists who preach Dominionism; we have a ruling elite in this country that fattens itself off the working- and middle-class man and woman while poverty and economic opportunity for citizens continue to shrink, and the national interest is repeatedly confused with the rapacity of that same ruling elite. My list could go on and on, and it is just as over-the-top, shallow, and content-free as yours. I suppose when you are speaking of the 1400 year old culture, you are talking about the Muslims. That's not a monolithic culture by any means, and speaking of it as if it is reveals an ignorance of the culture that is truly breathtaking. We'll not go into a history lesson on the Crusades just now, except to say that invasion, murder, and theft of property is not the distinguishing characteristic of Muslim culture. Go get a history lesson and come back when you have a more informed opinion.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:42:40 PM EST
    The left would obviously like it if they could emblden the terrorists and further the Left's agenda of making Bush look bad because the Left just hates Bush which has been obvious since 1968 when the Left lead the enemy to believe that if they just held on long enough, they could win and further the agenda of the Left. The Left would like that,wouldnt the Left?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:37:14 PM EST
    Jo,
    It is now okay to use torture and assasination? Sounds very dangerous for any of our troops that possibly get captured by the enemy.
    I see. And it wasn't dangerous for our captured troops before? AQ and the Iraqi insurgents are keeping them in proper POW camps, complete with visits by the IRC to make sure they're being treaded in accord with the Geneva Conventions?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:50:45 PM EST
    What do you care? Its just the icky, unsavory part of that magnificent regime change package. With alot more to come. Broken eggs for the omelet and all that. And who cares about a missing 20 odd billion or so? Its better to have been right voting for the decider-er and to be right now. Come hell 'r high water.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:26:16 PM EST
    "Getting rid of terror" is not going to be accomplished by military means. Ever. Military force can be useful, especially in the case of state-sponsered terrorism. We took that approach in Afghanistan and it was working, up until Bush decided to launch his Grand Adventure in Iraq. Above is a perfect example of the Left's ignorance. The so-called "Grand Adventure" in Iraq is the only long-term solution to defeating terrorism. We cannot kill every single terrorist - what we CAN do is co-opt them. Give the suicide bomber something to live for. Reform his civilization or he will tear down ours. Look at the demographic of unemployed distraught young males in the ME. Now look at any history book and see what pattern emerges, what it always leads to. A vibrant Arab democracy in Iraq will cascade into Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. And will turn Al Queda into a fringe lunatic group that meets at DU on Saturday nights.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#54)
    by Scrutinizer on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 04:07:24 PM EST
    A vibrant Arab democracy in Iraq will cascade into Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. And will turn Al Queda into a fringe lunatic group that meets at DU on Saturday nights.
    And Santa Claus comes on Christmas to fill the stockings of all the good little girls and boys. Although to be fair, I don't disagree with
    Give the suicide bomber something to live for. Reform his civilization or he will tear down ours. Look at the demographic of unemployed distraught young males in the ME. Now look at any history book and see what pattern emerges, what it always leads to.
    I just don't think that you can lead a culture to Democracy(tm) by invading a country on the pretext that that country is a threat to us due to some trumped up crap about WMD, and implying links to terror organizations when those links never existed. If it is the job of the US to play Democracy(tm) Evangelist, then we deserve an honest debate in this country about just why we should appoint ourselves saviors of the world, and why it should be appropriate for us to become the 21st century equivalent of the Church Militant. We don't deserve lies and half truths (WMD! 9/11! NOOC-U-LAR WEAPONS!) about why we are sending our children to kill other people and be killed and maimed in their turn, and we deserve to be able forbid such a course of action if the case can't be made.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:29:05 PM EST
    Scrutinizer, I expected another example of moral equivalence and you certainly didn't disappoint. So beheading a woman who spent years working for the Iraqi people, for example, is the same as firing on a car which is not slowing down for a checkpoint. And this one I particularly like--not providing council for imprisoned enemies who were trying to kill us on a battlefield is equivalent to beheading. If you don't mind, I'm going to have to share that one. Are innocents- noncombattants- killed in wars? Yes they are. (Of course in this war, the vast majority of such people have have been killed by terrorists, not US soldiers.) As I said, war is certainly not an attractive exercise. But for a little perspective, fewer non-terrorists have died during the past three years than had during any similar period of Saddams reign. And he was not engaged in providing freedom for a nation. Nor was he risking his own life, as each member of our military happens to be. Soldiers and marines whose standing orders involve "innocents" actually require that they give the advantage to a potential enemy. Of course, like the rest of the left, you are firmly on the Haditha bandwagon. A story originated by three Iraqis with very little love for the US and virtually every member of the MSM and the rest of the hate America first crowd is jubilant. You might log onto Sweetness and Light for some actual information on the Haditha story. It will give you some perspective, should you be interested. And naturally you quote the "terrible economy" media creation and throw in some Marx for good measure. But most important is your total lack of understanding when it comes to Islam. First of all, the Crusades were not an attack on the Muslim world or the Islamic faith. They were, rather, a defense of what remained of a world that Islam had not yet conquered and pillaged and an attempt to stop the wholesale slaughter of what Allah termed the infidel. Crusaders were not trying to impose Christianity, they were fighting for its continued existence against a "religion" which taught its followers that no faith but Islam must be permitted. Islam is the creation of an illiterate, self-absorbed pedophile, seeking power, wealth and utter submission to his authority. Read the Quran and the Hadiths. They are a rambling amalgamation of fouled up attempts to retell stories from the Bible and the Torah. In his zeal to give his supreme being some sort of solid grounding, Mohammed makes Noah, Moses, Abraham and even Adam, Muslims. Although there is a lot of unintended humor in the Quran, its main theme is literally deadly serious-believers must kill the infidel, take his land and property and spread Islam throughout the world. This heinous "religion", invented by a despicable man, has kept its followers in comparative darkness for 1400 years. Nations wedded to this scourge are among the most backward in the world. We could go on all evening, but I'm going to have to leave you to your Wonderland. Best wishes.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:48:47 PM EST
    /fish in a barrel... "Just recently, however, al-Massari confirmed that Saddam had joined forces with al Qaeda prior to the war. Al-Massari says that Saddam established contact with the 'Arab Afghans' who fled Afghanistan to northern Iraq in 2001 and that he funded their relocation to Iraq under the condition that they would not seek to undermine his regime. Upon their arrival, these Al-Qaeda terrorists were put in contact with Iraqi army personnel, who armed and funded them." "Obviously, this paints a very different picture of prewar Iraq than many would like to see. Interestingly enough, the existence of this document was first reported by The New York Times in the summer of 2004, several weeks after the 9-11 Commission proclaimed that there was no operational relationship between Saddam's Iraq and al Qaeda. For some reason, the Times decided to sit on the document while splashing the 9-11 Commission's conclusion on the front page."

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:06:22 PM EST
    "Just recently, Saddam Hussein's former southern regional commander, Gen. Al-Tikriti, gave the first videotaped testimony confirming that Iraq had WMDs up to the American invasion in 2003 and that Russia helped removed them prior to the war. His testimony confirms numerous other sources that have pointed to Russia's secret alliance with Iraq and the co-ordinated moving of WMDs before the American liberation" [link to front page magazine deleted, not in html format, see comment rules.]

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:15:35 PM EST
    deleted for insults. This commenter is warned to read the comment rules and provided he or she complies in the future, is limited to four comments a day.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:34:53 PM EST
    Damn those Jordanians. We can all meet later at the Jordanian embassy to protest their use of torture. See you there.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:40:48 PM EST
    Fenrisulven. Wow. You dont get much more Wagnerian/Aryan than that. That could've been a special unit under Himmler. Not that he needed to explain himself further.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:13:06 PM EST
    OLDPUPPY - Before idealizing that bastion of chivalry and champions against the swarthy muslim scourge the crusaders, read up on the pogroms they commited against Jews on their way to the Holy Land. And try to do a little better with the rest of your history so we wont always have to check your work.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:49 PM EST
    Yeah, they "weren't trying to impose" anything.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:52:21 PM EST
    Oh, and OLD PUPPY, I hate to rain on your parade but alot of the Bible is "a rambling amalgamation of fouled up attempts to retell stories" from Sumerian, Chaldean, and Babylonian mythology. Go play that our-religion-is-better-than-those-savages-religion back at lgf.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#64)
    by John Mann on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:54:06 PM EST
    "Think of what terrorism is. Terrorism does not mean you blow up a building. Terrorism means you terrorize. The purpose of it is to terrorize..." Rumsfeld said.
    Gee, even Rummy is quoting Lenin, that old lefty. I wonder if "Shock and Awe" counts as a terrorist attack.

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:39:40 AM EST
    Jondee, Er ... Snappy comeback, but could you address the actual substance of Oldpup's post, e.g. the part in the beginning about emoral equivalence? Just curious

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:04:28 PM EST
    So now we use information gained from torture

    There's no proof or even testimony to show this.

    to murder our target.

    "Murder" is a term usually reserved to describe unjust killing. Hardly a fit description for killing someone who not only deliberately either personally killed or directed the killing of hundreds of innocent people and bragged about it. "Execute" would seem to be a much more precise term.

    What makes us different from them?

    We don't deliberately kill innocents - despite what some people would seem to want to believe happened in Haditha, so far there's absolutely no proof that anything happened outside of the ROE, and the complainants so far have challengable credibility. We don't dress up people as civilians, infiltrate them into crowds, and have them commit homicide against innocent men, women and children. We don't mix our armed forces among innocents and then attack enemy forces from such a position, using innocents as shields. We don't use religion as an reason for killing. We have converted Iraqis from subjects to citizens, and are giving them the protection they need to create their own government, as opposed to the enemy who seeks to impose a government on them without their consent. We don't make killing of innocent people a matter of policy and an objective of our armed forces' strategy. We spend large amounts of money and time building up infrastructure of power, water, sanitation, schooling and industry - as opposed to our enemy, that destroys such infrastructure every chance they get.

    Have you really been paying so little attention to what's going on in Iraq that you can seriously ask that question?

    Re: Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police (none / 0) (#67)
    by Scrutinizer on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:35:47 AM EST
    OldPuppy- Nyah, nyah, nyah, I got the last word in!

    Zarqawi Snitch in Custody of Jordanian Police for Months | 66 comments (66 topical)