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Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:48:37 AM EST
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The three Guantanamo detainees who committed suicide did so by hanging themselves with bedsheets in their cells. The AP reports:

Three Guantanamo Bay detainees hanged themselves with nooses made of sheets and clothes, the commander of the detention center said yesterday. ....Two men from Saudi Arabia and one from Yemen were found dead shortly after midnight yesterday in separate cells, said the Miami-based U.S. Southern Command, which has jurisdiction over the prison. Attempts were made to revive them, but they failed.

"They hung themselves with fabricated nooses made out of clothes and bed sheets," Navy Rear Adm. Harry Harris told reporters from the U.S. base in southeastern Cuba.

All three left suicide notes. From now on, detainees will have sheets issued to them when they go to bed at night, and they will be removed in the morning. How does this prevent them from hanging themselves after lights-out? This is a band-aid, like putting a piece of tape over a hole in a flat tire, not a solution.

All three had been on a hunger strike at some point. None had tried to commit suicide previously. All were in a maximum security unit.

Amnesty International said the apparent suicides "are the tragic results of years of arbitrary and indefinite detention" and called the prison "an indictment" of the Bush administration's human rights record.

Barbara Olshansky of the Center for Constitutional Rights said in a telephone interview from New York that those held at Guantanamo "have this incredible level of despair that they will never get justice. And now they're gone. And they died without ever having seen a court."

Olshansky, whose group represents about 300 Guantanamo detainees, wept during the interview. She appealed to the Bush administration "for immediate action to do the right thing. They should be taken to court or released. I don't think this country wants the stain of injustice on it for many years to come."

To date, 759 detainees have been held at Guantanamo. Only 300 have been released or transferred. Last night, lawyers for the detainees called for a suicide probe and immediate trials or release.

Josh Colangelo-Bryan, who represents several Guantanamo inmates, witnessed one of his clients try to commit suicide during a visit on October 15. "This is something that I have feared hearing about since that day in October," he said.

The inmates have been held "without a trial, without fair hearing, without charges, and in the majority of cases without even being accused of committing any hostile act against the US and their allies. "They've been told that while they're held at Guantanamo they have absolutely no rights as human beings.

To date, 25 detainees have attempted suicide a total of 41 times. For a report from a lawyer who was there last week, see my earlier post.

Note to enterprising bloggers: One of the released detainees, Shafiq Rasul, is available by telephone for interviews. Details here. He was held for two years during which he alleges he was tortured, and released to Britain with no charges ever filed against him.

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    Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging | 45 comments (45 topical)
    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#1)
    by Al on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 01:33:58 AM EST
    The camp commander claims that the suicides are an "act of asymmetric warfare". Since nobody else was hurt, I wonder what he thinks were the objectives of this act of war. Perhaps he thinks the suicides wanted to gain sympathy for their cause, maybe even to get the camp shut down. To him, that would be a defeat. Interestingly, the camp commander is full of praise for the suicides: "They are smart. They are creative, they are committed." He thinks they have wrested control from him by their act, in spite of all the power he apparently has. Rear Admiral Harris cannot see the forest for the trees. He thinks his power is undermined by the prisoners who kill themselves. In fact, his power is undermined by the lack of a moral basis.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 01:54:03 AM EST
    David Rose, one of the few British journalists to have visited Camp Delta, describes the inhumane conditions facing those inside: Sunday February 22, 2004 The Observer
    Almost all the time they are confined to a metal box with mesh walls in a prefabricated cellblock built by Kellogg, Brown and Root, the construction arm of Vice President Dick Cheney's former employer, Halliburton. Each box is a little larger than a king-size bed: 56 square feet. Next to the hard steel wall-mounted bed, covered with a thin foam mattress, is a toilet, a hole in the floor, facing the open grille of the door. If they have not started to confess, the only items they are allowed in their cell are a toothbrush, soap and shampoo, and a prayer cap, mat and a copy of the Koran. The guards are supposed to pass by the cell every 30 seconds.
    30 seconds? How could they have time to suicide?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#3)
    by HK on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:44:28 AM EST
    Poppy, do the words 'fair' and 'trial' mean anything to you?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#4)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:11:13 AM EST
    Interestingly, the camp commander is full of praise for the suicides: "They are smart. They are creative, they are committed."
    and...........they're still dead. boy, they just kicked our ass!
    From now on, detainees will have sheets issued to them when they go to bed at night, and they will be removed in the morning. How does this prevent them from hanging themselves after lights-out?
    i kind of wondered about that myself. it's analogous to those signs i see, warning me that "loitering is not pemitted between x and x hours". which i guess means that loitering is ok at any other time. i think.
    I'd like to see this site look into the suicide of US troops rather then weep for these terrorists.
    ah, another impotent troll shows his face! gotta love these guys, they make it so easy, like they're begging "thank you sir, may i have another?". yes poppy (can i call you poppy?), they certainly should investigate them. i couldn't agree...............more. of course, i think the source of their discontent is well documented; being sent off to iraq, possibly for multiple tours, to fight in a war based on lies and distortions. being away from home and family, shot at, having bombs go off in your face, never knowing who is friend or foe. do you see a pattern developing here guy? did you notice that poppy can also read minds? he just knows they're all terrorists, something even the administration hasn't yet claimed. good on ya guy! so poppy, when do you ship out?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:11:20 AM EST
    How does this prevent them from hanging themselves after lights-out? They'll be asleep!

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#6)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:14:25 AM EST
    TL: off topic question. is there a server problem still? i ask because every time i've come in, for the past two days, i've had to sign in to post, even if i was just here a short time before.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#7)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:16:03 AM EST
    They'll be asleep!
    damn, wish i'd thought of that! oh, and it'll be dark too, they won't be able to see, to tie those knots.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:17:57 AM EST
    Poppy, when you're done trolling through here like a stray puppy peeing on all the posts, google "site:talkleft.com PTSD" and do some reading. A little bit of educating yourself will help you not sound so stupid next time you post here, and there's a free bonus too. Someone might actually listen and give things you say some credence if you can at least sound like you know what the hell you're talking about. "When in doubt make it sound good", you know?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#9)
    by scribe on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:26:11 AM EST
    Still ironic they give these people the dignity of being soldiers in death, while denying them in life the dignities guaranteed by the Geneva Conventions and law. Really, the good Admiral's schtick ties into the administration story about how dangerous these folks are, and that's why we need to keep Gitmo open (you've heard that one before) but that just is something he's saying to guarantee the continued existence of his own job. Once Gitmo closes, what will he have left to do? Oh, and Poppy? As to you, what the Vice President said to Senator Leahy.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:13:15 AM EST
    Scribe - Once again. These prisoners are not covered under the GC. Sorry. Also, guess who said:
    So, I will ask you specifically what I asked at 6:23PM on 1/6/05. What is wrong with reviewing the GC with an eye towards bringing it into the 21st century, and more accurately defining who is, and is not, protected.
    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:18:13 AM EST
    These prisoners are not covered under the GC. Sorry. Also, guess who said
    THe US govt doesn't get to define that. But we know you are pro-torture especially when it comes to inferior peoples.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#12)
    by profmarcus on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:32:10 AM EST
    what drives human beings to take their own lives, whether it be through suicide bombing or just plain suicide, is desperation, fueled by a belief that nothing less could possibly make a difference.. And, yes, I DO take it personally

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:35:36 AM EST
    Bill Clinton = "the Left" in the U.S? And I suppose Shrub is a moderate. When were you born; 1987? The only ones that consider Clinton the Left are Oxycotin boy and Dan Coulter. Turn off the talk radio, switch off Fox and read some actual history for crissake.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:37:23 AM EST
    The right must be having a huge sale on strawmen.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:39:52 AM EST
    Btw, Einstein that policy of sanctions and more was completely supported by the Right. If you've got any evidence to the contrary, lets see it. Put up or shut up.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:43:08 AM EST
    Jondee as you know they dont put up, it takes time away from spewing excrement everywhere

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:43:55 AM EST
    Crickets..

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:59:27 AM EST
    Poppy - Less than half the country even voted. Wheres your proof that your friends in the Reichstag didnt support those horibble sanctions?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:10:05 AM EST
    Yeah Clinton was the only one who ever made that claim. Ever. lol. This whole debacle is all his fault. If you were twelve you might have an excuse, but you're obviously just another moron. And a liar.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:22:47 AM EST
    Pumpking Pie, Jesus and Challenging The Cult of Death. There is quite a readable article here on the joys of both Christianity and Islam. Shorter: The promise of the afterlife has a price to pay for those that take the mythology of religion too seriously. It gives answers in some instances to this question.
    what drives human beings to take their own lives, whether it be through suicide bombing or just plain suicide,
    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:27:56 AM EST
    hese prisoners are not covered under the GC.
    That like has been disproven so often, and regardless they are covered by the convention against torture.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:36:04 AM EST
    Jondee - So he is a liar? Looks like tons of evidence to me. Shorter:
    "(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998
    "I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003
    Poppy - Love it, but some advice. Shorten it up and use some links, TL is gracious but bandwidth costs money. BTW - The Left cannot accept that the Demos under Clinton supported his Iraq policies because if they do, then they cannot reasonably claim that Bush lied, etc. They also can't accept it because it makes them face the fact that people were killed because of that support.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:37:37 AM EST
    Sailor - No,the exact opposite has been proved. And prove the torture.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 10:00:51 AM EST
    PPJ again your logic is breath takenly inane. Whether Clinton lied does not affect that Bush Lied. Note: Clinton didn't invade. Note also that the right accused Clinton of waging the dog. Not everyone to the left of Bush is on the "left" but you never let facts get in the way. You guys have to make up your mind is Clinton your hero or enemy.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 10:05:00 AM EST
    Poppy - many things are a matter of degrees. Clinton administration paranoia, or fluffery about Iraqs penchant for WMD? Are you seriously comparing this to the flattening of Iraq during the current occupation? Thanks for the Hannityesque take. Nice to have the catastrophe boiled down to "It's Bill Clintons fault"... once again. Much obliged.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#27)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 10:22:21 AM EST
    Poopy - they were UN sanctions another village goes begging

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 10:31:21 AM EST
    SD - Yes they are UN sanctions, and we are currently enforcing one. Or did you forget that?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 10:37:29 AM EST
    Mr.Pajamas - Love it. You have some evidence that the dearly departed Poppy couldnt provide that Clintons stance toward Iraq was anything but a hat tip to the Israeli and American right? C'mon Mr. Links, lets see the evidence that you guys ever expressed any concern whatsoever about the effect that the sanctions had on the Iraqis during the time that they were in effect or ever expressed anything but whole hearted approval at Clintons stance on Iraqi WMDs which was again, nothing but a hat tip from "the Leftist" Clinton to the interests that finally got their wish when Bush became President. If you really were dumb enough to swallow that Scaife financed Spectator/Rush swill in the ninties that Clinton was a Leftist, than do me a favor and enumerate for us all the policies put into effect by Clinton that prove your thesis.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 11:02:34 AM EST
    So basically, it was a conspiracy between Clinton, Tenet and the C.I.A and I assume, a host of others not relevant enough to name or enumerate in military intelligence, foreign intelligence services, the U.N etc to "set up" Mr. Never-any-accountability and force him to attack Iraq. That what you're saying Poppy?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 11:52:04 AM EST
    Clinton was the best Republican President we ever had, and he did not round up a bunch of dark-skinned guys and ship them to Gitmo to be tortured, never charged, held in abjection with no light at the end of the tunnel, when their worst crime may have been being in the vacinity of people being paid to bring in enemies for us. This vicious freak in the White House, and his whole administration, irrespective of what any other president or administration has done, is corrupt, un-American, and as Nazi as the dead ones being lamented by a troll in here. Whatever age you are, inhumane treatment, torture, incarceration without charges, representation and speedy trial are all very seriously: UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#32)
    by roger on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:09:45 PM EST
    It's all clear to me now. The evil genius Clinton, with his gang, fooled the poor George W. Poor George!

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:12:00 PM EST
    Prior to the Gulf War, Iraq and Iran had been at war for eight years, one of the most awful conflagrations of modern times. During sanctions, Saddam had to make it seem as if he still had WMDs to stave off invasion by Iran. He had to both destroy his arsonal and make it seem as if he still had it. That the sanctions had such a devastating effect on Iraq is NOT the fault of the sanctioners (the UN) but of the dictator who would not let them unseat him. Albright's awful statement about the death toll there is something she has repeatedly stated on MSM was a stupid, wrong-headed, ugly and wrong brain fart. I don't know how many times she has to disown it so vividly for people to finally get the picture that the Clinton Administration did not view all those deaths as worth it. Whereas: this administration clearly views all these deaths, and the prolonged agonies preceding them, as worth it. They are making billions of dollars off it.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:23:38 PM EST
    Clintons b.j, Michael Moore, "leftie liberals"; who needs books and libraries anymore when you have Rush, Sean, and Michael Savage? This whole war is because Clinton needed to cover-up his "sodomizing of interns". Or something. Forget about the whole powerful interests that influence M.E policy thing; nothing to see over there. All thinking about that stuff does is turn you into a leftie elite, undermining your old fashioned, wholesome values and faith-based beliefs.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:30:40 PM EST
    Poppy - Who much longer are you gonna keep waiting on that evidence that anyone on the right expressed an iota of concern about the effect of the sanctions while they we going on? Oh but Clinton said they had WMDs so you all HAD go along with it, right? After all the right always unquestioningly went along with everything Clinton said back then; we all remember that.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:42:23 PM EST
    Saddam was starving people. Big Oil was starving people. Clinton let them, and it's pretty clear that part of it was about letting Iraq keep scaring Iran with the notion of (nonexistent) WMD. The US did not, and does not, want an even stronger Iran. Witness Rummy going over to give Saddam some love and some WMD to help him kill Iranians. We did not want to go in there to kill and be killed behind a regime change the Iraqi people should have handled themselves. We told them we would support such a move. They never made it. Now we have made it, and they are in radically worse shape in terms of infrastructure, body count and the wherewithal to repair their country than they were before this Fascist Kleptocracy turned its attentions on their country. Do you think that being such an avid supporter of this fascism will keep you safe? Render you immune to their horrors? Keep you comfortable? Are you looking out for Number One? Unless you are very rich, you will be victimized by it as surely as the rest of us. They rely on the ignorance, self-interest, fear and greed of the populace to enable their looting of our riches, of the planet's riches. You are a perfect example of the kind of citizen they use, and Newtie has repeatedly come right out and said they use, with a big old grin on his puss, and still you cling to the very weaknesses they exploit as if your life depended on it. Stupid ox. Your life depends on overcoming your weaknesses and acting with strength, NOT strengthening the weaknesses themselves. Get a clue. We ALL must risk our lives to keep our liberty. It will forever be under attack from within, from those within who can spot the weakness of the populace, just like Gingrich did, and all these psycho-radical neo-conservatives did. It always requires intelligence, selflessness, courage and generosity to maintain a government such as that set out in our constitution. You clearly need to sit down and rethink your approach to citizenship. It's way past time you started acting like a real American.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#37)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 01:22:54 PM EST
    Muddied waters: If it was up to me... but it's not. I certainly disagreed with sactions against Iraq (as evidenced by how well sanctions work against countries ...like ...um, Cuba). Nevertheless, that we had sanctions on Iraq for close to 14 years and were bombing them with impunity for all that time argued against the 2002/2003 rationale for war (against Iraq). I certainly agreed with the Afghanistan campaign to root out Taleban and Al-Qaeda and it would have been nice if they had gotten that under control before moving on... to flag-burning prohibitions and migrant prohibitions and gay-marriage prohibitions. The whole situation is all mixed up and people, innocent people, pay the price for the games nations play. I'm skeptical and far too often cynical of the stated reasons any nation does anything. But Guantanamo is self-admittedly outside-the-law which makes it an "outlaw" facility.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 01:42:53 PM EST
    Poppy's left the building. Gone to listen to another scholarly dissertation on The Savage Nation no doubt.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 02:07:24 PM EST
    Congratulations, Poppy. You took a discussion about the suicides at Guantanamo, Harris' bizarre characterization of them as acts of war, and the abysmal conditions at Guantanamo, and turned it into a Clinton-fest. Nice job.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#40)
    by HK on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 02:11:04 PM EST
    Poppy and has spent today and 16 posts hijacking this thread. What Clinton did or did not do is somewhat of a moot point here. The issue up for discussion is the existance of and conditions in a detention camp for the purpose of indefinitely incarcerating people who have not been found guilty of - or even been charged with - any crime. You can dredge up politics of the past all you want, but there are no excuses for what is happening now.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 02:36:52 PM EST
    Darryl: If the administration had decided to thwart the 9/11 attacks instead of embellish on them outrageously, I certainly would have been in favor of a UN mission to Afghanistan to deal with the Taliban and OBL. As it is: not so much. We have not rid them of this oppression, and they will not stop harboring terrorists as it has played out now. The fact of, and the conditions at, and the misuse of Gitmo have been appalling from the git. We have hollered about it, and people have dedicated their activism toward fixing it, and none of it has any good effect. The only thing that might have a good effect right now is millions of people filling the streets in DC, backed up into the surrounding states, and all hollering "LEAVE" at the top of their lungs until these fiends have been removed, and the appropriate replacements found. The three men who hung themselves were not only using the last self-determination left to them, but giving the gift of highlighting the evil for the rest of us with that last viable option. As Americans, we have to presume them innocent because they were never charged and tried for any crime. They assert they are criminals, but when then pressed to give them their legal rights, they assert they are prisoners of war, but when then pressed to treat them under the Geneva Conventions, they assert that they are criminals. IF there is to be a global war on terror it should be under the sole purview of the UN. If the UN isn't up to the challenge, we help insure it is, NOT go it alone, ever, even if we ever manage to get a reasonable, talented, competent person with a decent IQ and some morals for a president again.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 03:01:46 PM EST
    Agent99, thank you for your last two posts. There is virtualy nothing that I for one, and maybe some others here, could add to what you've said here today that would express how so many of us feel...

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 03:09:53 PM EST
    Poppy's comments have been deleted and he has been banned.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 03:26:42 PM EST
    Thank you, Edger! And thank you, Jeralyn.

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#45)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 03:28:13 PM EST
    PPJ: SD - Yes they are UN sanctions, and we are currently enforcing one. Please direct me to a copy of the request on the part of the UN that we do so. As far as I know, they never asked, which would seem to be part of any rationale for "enforcing" their sanctions. Otherwise anyone with an army could attack Israel for their multiple violations of UN sanctions. Do you support the same "enforcement" in Israel that you support in iraq? Do you suggest that everyone in your town "enforce" the law as they see it, or would you expect stuff like trained public safety officers, court orders, warrants, etc.?

    Re: Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:02:11 PM EST
    Roger - And then I add, "Thank God."

    Detainee Suicides Were by Hanging | 45 comments (45 topical)