home

Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, Hezbollah Threatens Open War

CBS reports that residents of Haifa in Israel have been ordered into bomb shelters due to bombings:

Residents of Haifa, Israel's third largest city and a major port, were ordered into bomb shelters as evening fell Friday, following rocket attacks throughout the day, even though Haifa is some 18 miles south of the border with Lebanon.

Residents were shocked when the first attacks hit Haifa Thursday: No guerrilla rocket had ever reached that far into Israel.

Iran weighs in:

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Israel against extending its assault into Syria and said the Jewish state couldn't harm Iran, which also backs Hezbollah.

Israel today bombed and demolished the residence of Hezbollah chief Sheik Hassan Nasrallah. Here is the Sheik's response:

"You wanted an open war, and we are ready for an open war," he said.

Israel is getting bombed too:

At least 50 rockets hit seven towns and communities in Israel, including Safad and Nahariya _ where two people were killed a day earlier. Since Wednesday, 61 Israelis have been hurt in the rocket fire.

< NY Court of Appeals to Review Overbilling of Inmate Collect Calls | PBS Tonight: Should Doctors Take Part in Executions >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#1)
    by chew2 on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:46:11 AM EST
    From Stratfor.com "...Israeli forces are already in Lebanon. Its special forces are inside identifying targets for airstrikes. We expect numerous air attacks over the next 48 hours, as well as reports of firefights in southern Lebanon. We also expect more rocket attacks on Israel. It will take several days to mount a full invasion of Lebanon. We would not expect major operations before the weekend at the earliest. If the rocket attacks are taking place, however, Israel might send several brigades to the Litani River almost immediately in order to move the rockets out of range of Haifa. Therefore, we would expect a rapid operation in the next 24-48 hours followed by a larger force later. ................ It would appear Israel will invade Lebanon. The global response will be noisy. There will be no substantial international action against Israel. Beirut's tourism and transportation industry, as well as its financial sectors, are very much at risk."

    "Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Israel against extending its assault into Syria and said the Jewish state couldn't harm Iran, which also backs Hezbollah." Is this idiot kidding? I want to hear this nitwit say this while he's watching the mushroom cloud rise above Tehran!

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:55:01 AM EST
    Around and around and around we go... Where it stops, nobody knows.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:14:38 PM EST
    he's watching the mushroom cloud rise above Tehran!
    welcome to Armegedon. escalating force has worked so well in the ME dont you think? The US if it attacks Iran will use low yield nukes. This will remove any restraint that anyone, anywhere be they friend or foe, feels about using any kind of nuclear device. One would have to think that the Pakistan government would fall and be replaced by hardline fundamentalists. And they already have nukes. But this idiot's suggestion is what American foreign policy is, dont look more than 1 step ahead. The blowback will be unbelievable. Time to go rent "On the Beach" again.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:20:56 PM EST
    France (and Russia, Spain, The Vatican, and the UN) Criticizes Israel Attack on Lebanon It appears that the US, in the voice of bush, who has probably the most leverage over what Israel will do, is pretty well the only country that is not calling for a standdown by Israel. Very inspiring, george...

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#6)
    by desertswine on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:26:06 PM EST
    This seems to be the real Bush-Neocon Roadmap working to perfection.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#7)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:31:37 PM EST
    This seems to be the real Bush-Neocon Roadmap working to perfection.
    desertswine Bingo Have you ever read this also note neocons who helped author this in the '90s

    Nukes? Too much, no? Hezbollah is still a terrorist group of few thousands people and not a regular army. I believe Israel will try to weaken Hezbollah and finally to force Lebanon to disarm them by themselves. Milion Dollar Hosting

    I would argue that this Middle East turmoil is the culmination of three decades of a concerted effort by Team B...now called the "neoconservatives" to abandon detente and move to a position where military muscle is the guiding force in U.S. foreign policy. Read an article that details the efforts of Dick Cheney to implement this foreign policy reality...here: www.thoughttheater.com

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#10)
    by oldtree on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:12:06 PM EST
    I hope folks don't miss the point that Israel has had enough terror attacks in their 60 years. There is no country on earth that has had to endure such attacks, and be warned by the big countries to shut up, back off, stop this, stop that. Methinks they have had it with the hypocrisy surrounding the coddling of the arab world and their infinite stupidity. I am not a pro war person, I hate it. But you best place yourself in 1776 and figure out what you had to do to survive. Or pick 1812, either way. as members of a supposedly democratic society, why would we not back them to the hilt? OIL but they are fighting a revolution, and I for one support the revolution of any people trying to be free, and fighting a group of regimes that have sworn to kill them all. what would you do?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#11)
    by desertswine on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:13:58 PM EST
    soccerdad: I had not read that. Thank you for the link... Perle, Feith, Wurmser; the usual suspects.

    Oldtree, how about getting the Palestinians a homeland, since theirs was confiscated by Israel.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:24:45 PM EST
    what would you do? what would you do? How about the same type of support given to Israel by the US in 1982, since that worked so well for both countries.... and bush is so intent on ending terrorism.... [/bitter sarcasm]

    What about dual citizenship that the Isreali's have here and in the US. What about the families of those who are Lebanese. What happens if they have families in the US. What happens if they came in to the US to escape the war. Since they are Arabs will they be treated as terrorists. Bush's regime will make two entrance's as both Isreali and Lebanese enter here in the US. One gets a free pass the other gets humiliated. Then Bush can brag about how much he loves Isreal.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:41:49 PM EST
    oldtree-
    I am not a pro war person, I hate it. But you best place yourself in 1776 and figure out what you had to do to survive.
    So they should kill all the "indians"?

    What's happening in Lebanon could be endangering the lives of American soldiers in Iraq. The Shiites are not going to appreciate what is happening to their brothers and sisters in Southern Iraq...especially since all this bombing has the blessing of George Bush.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#19)
    by dab on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:48:55 PM EST
    Edger: Are you for real? In your mind, the way to end terrorism is not to do anything that might offend Bin Laden or others like him? Good luck, then. You can start with withdrawing the state of Israel from the map: bin Laden and other extreme islamists can never tolerate a non-Muslim state in the middle east. Next, you can teach your children to dress according to Bin Laden's religious tradition. Run all countries throughout the world according to Bin Laden's interpretation of the Kuran, and of course, pledge your allegience to Bin Laden . . . the list goes on. Somehow I just don't think appeasement is going to do the trick. Oh yes, and a reminder: Israel has on many occasions, beginning in 1948 and continuing through 2000, all but begged for the establishment of side by side independent states, granting all of the west bank and Gaza for a Palestinian state. The only other way to appease Hizbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and like-minded people would be to pack up their bags and leave the middle east. I wonder whether you would honestly do such a thing.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:48:59 PM EST
    Ed Deevy: What's happening in Lebanon could be endangering the lives of American soldiers in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis demonstrate in support of Lebanon (AP) 14 July 2006 BAGHDAD, Iraq - Thousands of Iraqis demonstrated in Baghdad on Friday praising the leader of Lebanon's Hezbollah group and denouncing Israel and the United States for attacks against Lebanon. Some protesters said they were ready to fight the Israelis.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:51:36 PM EST
    Dab... Ahhh, never mind. On second thought, your post is not worth responding to...

    In your mind, the way to end terrorism is not to do anything that might offend Bin Laden or others like him?
    Dab, False concerns are no cause for alarm.This is the same pretense that led to our takeover in Iraq.WMD Remember.

    Posted by bigunit12 July 14, 2006 02:19 PM Oldtree, how about getting the Palestinians a homeland, since theirs was confiscated by Israel.
    Oh, do you mean something like this?: July 2000 The Camp David Summit between Israeli Barak was prepared to offer the entire Gaza Strip, a Palestinian capitol in East Jerusalem, over 95% of the West Bank and financial reparations for Palestinian refugees for peace

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#24)
    by Al on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:01:53 PM EST
    Oldtree, not even the government of Israel thinks of itself as "a revolution by people trying to be free". This conflict is not about an abstraction like freedom. Israelis are quite free, and they would be the first to say so. It's about territory, who gets to live where, and with access to what resources. It's about land, and water. It's not very complicated, really. The state of Israel was created in a place previously inhabited by desert nomads, who did not get consulted, nor integrated by the Israeli settlers. The rest is history.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:08:52 PM EST
    July 2000 The Camp David Summit between Israeli Barak was prepared to offer the entire Gaza Strip, a Palestinian capitol in East Jerusalem, over 95% of the West Bank and financial reparations for Palestinian refugees for peace Only they can't go home. A minor technicality that is easily, commonly and deliberately overlooked.

    My roommate used this analogy last night and I think it is somewhat fitting for the overall scenario: It's as if they are sticking their hand into a beehive and instead of pulling their hand out when they get stung, they just thrust their hand farther into the beehive in attempts to kill the bees.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#27)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:12:53 PM EST
    For an insider view of what happened at Camp David see this The idea that Arafat rejected a proposal that was going to give him "everything" he alwas wanted is ludicrous at best

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:21:12 PM EST
    Squeaky posted here back in May very good links that shed clear light on the reasons for bush being so reluctant to press Israel stronger than he has to restrain themselves:
    Any critisism of Israeli policies by politiicians or public figures has led to substantial headaches at best or political death at worst.
    Here is the PDF of the Mearsheimer and Walt essay The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy from Harvard's Faculty Research Working Paper Series.
    I guess the deaths of arabs and lebanese and the very strong possibility of an ME wide catastrophe is less concerning to bush than his political survival. I wonder if he's ever head of 'history' or of 'karma'...

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:25:10 PM EST
    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#30)
    by ras on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:30:23 PM EST
    TL, Re your headline: it sounds more like Hizbollah is threatening open war, not Lebanon, unless there is a quote somewhere that I've missed with an official Lebanese threat. Is there?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#31)
    by cmpnwtr on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:30:56 PM EST
    The title to this post is misleading. The government of Lebanon,such as it is, did not threaten "open war." Hezbollah did. Big difference!

    I believe Bush really gets off on death and killing, but is too much of a coward to actually be involved, except as the person who makes it happen, but have others actually do the deed. As governor of Texas, Bush set a record for executions, but was tioo much of a coward for Vietnam. [link deleted, not in html format]

    Re: Lebanon not being the one to threaten war. You are all correct and I've changed the headline. As I said yesterday, the Israel/middle east conflict is far outside my field and I'm learning as I go along. All of your comments (except the nasty ones which I've deleted) are helpful. Instructions for posting links are in the comment box, please use them as otherwise the site gets skewed.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#17)
    by Al on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:28:03 PM EST
    I don't suppose you know anybody who lives in Tehran.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimcee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:41:37 PM EST
    Yeah: What those last two guys said. It is obvious that strings are being pulled by thier Syrian/Iranian masters. The Arabs appear to be hard-learners when it comes to Israel or they would realise that they will never dislodge the Israelis. They have attacked Israel in concert several times and still they were beaten with land taken and then returned. Israel, being a liberal democracy, historically will prevail over the strongman leaders of the Arab factions. I also think that Israel is doing what they need to do. After the 'Cedar Revolution' the Lebanese gov't should have cracked down on hizbollah and sent them packing back to Syria with the Syrian Army. Since the L gov't can't or won't get the job done Israel will do it for them. Whether you agree or not there really is a War On Terror and this is it.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#34)
    by Al on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 04:07:39 PM EST
    Whether you agree or not there really is a War On Terror and this is it. (Jimcee)
    Another commenter who seems to think that the state of war around Israel is ideologically motivated. No, the Israelis are not fighting a "war on terror". The phrase "war on terror" has never been uttered by any Israeli official. The war is, and always has been, about land and access to water in a water-deprived region. The methods that both sides employ to carry out this war are shocking because they make no difference between civilians and professional soldiers. To both sides, there is only one enemy. So the Palestinians send out suicide bombers to kill as many people as possible in a pizzeria, and the Israelis send F-16 bombers and bulldozers to raze entire buildings, including the people inside them. The rest of us who are fortunate enough to live in peace, protected from such acts of violence, should not be taking sides with any of the aggressors. We should be taking sides with the people like ourselves, the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians and Lebanese and ... well, you get the picture; these are the true victims, caught in the crossfire and used as pawns in a deadly battle they do not control, confused by all the religious or nationalistic propaganda. The temptation to take sides, and to project our own political convictions onto others is huge. Everybody loves to be a backseat general in somebody else's war. Consider, though, that if you take sides you become part of the conflict, and therefore part of the problem. How about trying to be part of the solution instead?

    Hmmmmm, to begin with a little history lesson is in order. A Palestinian is a Habiru, which is actually an ancient Summerian word not a Egyptian word. Habiru means "Landless Ones." The Jewish nation managed to evolve into a landed people with tha aid of an Egyptian (with an axe to grind), Moses. Those that didn't cleave to Moses' Standard....tha Two Tablets, remained Habiru. Now here is tha thing that most western Europeans fail to understand, I'm including us Americans due to our immigrant status, ---tha rest of tha Arabic community in Arabia consider tha Habiru to have less status than Nubians and have since ancient times. This is tha fuel that drives tha passions in tha Middle East. Since before Sumeria was a Kingdom, those that consider themselves descended from Ishmael have been determined to stomp tha Habiru into history. And it is not only tha Jews they seek to vanquish, but tha Palestinian remnant as well. Keep this in mind, Sumeria is south of Iran, they are different peoples that have been involved in wars for dominance for 5,000 yrs, maybe more. An aside, Mohammed was a descendant of Sumeria, not Persia. So tha Persians and their southern cousins, tha Syrian (Assyrian remnant) are playing to two haves of tha Habiru against each other. Our so-called neo-con executive is being played, played because tha Rumsfeld/Cheney cabal needs a larger WAR to permanently establish Imperial Presidential Power. I have been privately predicting tha possibility of a world population reducing war since 1981, given tha Conservative mantra explained to me then, "too many people, not enough resources." If we're not careful, Cheney/Rumsfeld may just get tha conflagration they need. And then we will see more smoke in tha atmosphere.

    The two soldiers seized by Hezbollah were in the Shebaa Farms territory which is either Lebanese territory that Israel hasn't withdrawn from, or Syrian territory that Israel hasn't withdrawn from. In other words, according to Hezbollah and international law, the Israeli soldiers were breaking the law by being in Lebanese territory. Hezbollah has about a third of the national assembly, so it's unlikely that the central government can rein in Hezbollah's military wing without bringing on another civil war. What is clear is that even the Lebanese Christians no longer are able to align themselves with the Israelis. Rumors of attacks on Damascus within 48 hours. More terrorism around the world. Achille Lauros, Americans targeted, etc.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#37)
    by chemoelectric on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 05:37:16 PM EST
    Israel needs at least to secure enough land to prevent rockets from reaching Haifa, which is not something that is going to come from asking nicely. After that I have no solution except to say that there probably is no 'diplomatic' solution with Hezbollah and Iran.

    chemoelectric, The problem with seizing enough territory to prevent rocket attacks is that rocket ranges can only increase. The other problem is that the two soldiers that the Hezbollah seize weren't in Israel. They were in Lebanese territory seized by the Israelis to prevent the Hezbollah from raining rockets down from around the Golan Heights. So if the Israelis again seize Lebanese territory to prevent rockets from being fired into Israel's frontier, what does Israel do when another soldier ten miles deep in Lebanon is seized or killed? Nothing but bad is going to happen from all of this.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#39)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 06:28:30 PM EST
    TL, As I said yesterday, the Israel/middle east conflict is far outside my field and I'm learning as I go along. You're not the only one.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 06:39:51 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica, The two soldiers seized by Hezbollah were in the Shebaa Farms territory which is either Lebanese territory that Israel hasn't withdrawn from, or Syrian territory that Israel hasn't withdrawn from. Do you have a link for that?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#41)
    by BigTex on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 06:42:32 PM EST
    Here's some indication of the care Israel is taking to keep the damage to the civilian population and structures down.
    The level of damage inflicted by Israel appeared finely calibrated. For example, a missile punched a hole in a major suspension bridge on the Beirut-Damascus road but did not destroy it, unlike less expensive bridges on the road that were brought down. An Israeli strike hit fuel depots at one of Beirut's two power stations _ sending massive fireballs and smoke into the sky _ but avoided the station itself.


    Posted by soccerdad: "Time to go rent "On the Beach" again." You got that right... I think Nevil Shute nailed it..."There's still time brother!"

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#43)
    by orionATL on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:50:10 PM EST
    desertswine and soccerdad, you are on the right track. google an article by "mersheim and walt" and read it. in general, it has been a puzzle to me that a small country, with as much collective historical wisdom as israel has, would not use that wisdom to reach an agreement (and many years earlier) with so many threatening surrounding governments. hundreds millions of arabs; a few million israelis. those are not good long term odds when you are engaged in extended antagonism. thousands of years ago, the assyrians would have come down like a lion on the fold, .... nowadays, u.s. support, and only u.s. support, keeps israel defiant. as i recall, this all began with the israeli conclusion that hamas had no "right" to win an election in palestine. normally, the sensible political response to an event like hamas' rise to power would have been: good, now we can educate them into the "system". in other words - co-optation. but no. that was not the israeli reaction. the reaction was - these folks have no business being in power in the palestinian world. could any israeli decision have been less democratic than this decision? the fundamental fact of of the Israeli-arab conflict is that the israeli government, like the american government with american indian population throughout the 1800's, took land it wanted but did not have right or title to, punished the reaction of the previous owners of the at land, and sent those former owners into reservations. so similarly, the israelis have sent palestinians who lived in partitioned palestine in the 1940's to "reservations", e.g., gaza refugee "camps", where some families have been located "temporarily" for nearly 60 years. that, friends, is an israeli reservation for arabs who owned land the israelis wanted. will there be widespread war in the middle east now? possible. but there is a lot each country could lose. but are rational calculations likely at this point? is the bush administration willing to behave like a world leader and encourage and facilitate diplomacy? stay tuned.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:57:54 PM EST
    Gosh, I wonder if this is the lead up to the October Surprise, which many of us thought was going to happen in, um August...hmmmm..... If the republicans lose control of Congress in Nov, many of them will be in big, big trouble. The stakes are high.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#45)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:08:57 PM EST
    Tex, How many innocent Palestinians have been killed compared to Israelis in this conflict? It's not even close. Citing the instances in which the Israeli military managed to target precisely does NOTHING to address the myriad of times they target imprecisely or practice this immoral form of collective punishment.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:09:34 PM EST
    Steve Clemons passes on a rumor that Olmert blew off Condi's request for him to ease up on the Lebanese. Who are the masters?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#47)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:33:16 PM EST
    stop sending our tax money to Israel and they'd change their ways in a New York second.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:33:24 PM EST
    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:43:01 PM EST
    Dadler - You might remember that Hamas was recently elected.... When you elect people who have declared that another country must be destroyed you are no longer in an "innocent" environment.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#51)
    by Al on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:47:43 PM EST
    BigTex, we have heard about "surgical strikes" before. It's crap. In reality, lots of people die who shouldn't. Lots of homes are destroyed that shouldn't. Spare us the propaganda, please.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#52)
    by Al on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:57:43 PM EST
    From the BBC:
    The road to Damascus was hit
    Indeed. Wikipedia:
    In Acts 9:3-19a, while on the road from Jerusalem to Damascus, near Damascus, he was hit by a bolt of light from the sky and dropped to the ground. He heard a voice: "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.


    deleted, troll comment

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#53)
    by Andreas on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:06:37 PM EST
    The Olmert government in Israel has seized on two incidents involving the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, first in Gaza on June 25, and then on Wednesday on the Lebanese border, as pretexts for an enormous military operation that was clearly prepared long in advance. It remains to be seen how far the Israeli offensive will go--to Beirut, or even to Damascus--but it is clearly aimed at accomplishing strategic objectives that have no relationship to the incidents that supposedly provoked it. ... in the final analysis, the real target of the United States and Israel is not this or that organization, but the oppressed masses throughout the Middle East. They aim to destroy the will to struggle of the tens of millions of people who have never accepted the Zionist dispossession of the Palestinian people, and who will never accept the US conquest of Iraq and the establishment of a neo-colonial stooge regime in Baghdad. ... It is now 58 years since the state of Israel was established, and 39 years since the Six-Day War which expanded Zionist control of Palestinian territory to include the West Bank and Gaza. These six decades have been an unending chain of violence--war, repression, terrorism, assassination, the expulsion of populations. Now a new and even more terrible war threatens. The first premise of any solution to the crisis of the Middle East is the removal of American imperialism from the region. The World Socialist Web Site and the Socialist Equality Party demand the immediate withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq and the Persian Gulf, and an end to Washington's military and financial sponsorship of Israeli domination over the Palestinian people.
    Israeli attack on Lebanon threatens to engulf entire Middle East in war Statement of the Editorial Board of the WSWS, 15 July 2006

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#54)
    by Aaron on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 05:44:08 AM EST
    Haifa is a beautiful city, as is most of the North of Israel, fabulous scenery and great places to go hiking. The whole area is dotted with mythic Roman and crusader era ruins and forts. Beautiful rivers, streams and wadi's crisscross the craggy rocky terrain feeding into the Sea of Galilee. All around the shores of the sea you'll find cozy little places to stop and eat or get a drink, and relax by the water, very laid-back compared to the rest of Israel. There's also lots of rich lush green farmland and beautiful open fields which create exquisite vistas when viewed from the mountainous heights. It's the kind of place you go for a romantic getaway. How sad to see it once again consumed by war.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 05:50:05 AM EST
    If the election of Hamas wasnt another perfect example of blowback, I dont know what is. But, the idea is that we want war isnt it?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#56)
    by Aaron on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:01:49 AM EST
    And the death toll rises. Israel kills Lebanese civilians An Israeli air raid has killed at least 13 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:14:33 AM EST
    Jondee - Blowback, smoback. The government of Palestine has always existed on chartity. The reward for the kind acts that others have done for them was to elect Hamas and then act is if their actions would have no consquences. It is time for the citziens of Palestine, Lebanon and Syria to come to the understanding that it is in their best interests to get rid of the terrorists.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:30:35 AM EST
    Charity shmarity. Speaking of charity, how about that $ 12 mil a day without which a certain "chosen" would find out how chosen in reality they actually were. Charity. lol.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#59)
    by Aaron on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:35:34 AM EST
    Andreas "...39 years since the Six-Day War which expanded Zionist control of Palestinian territory to include the West Bank and Gaza." I'm bothered by this kind of propaganda, which would lead some to believe that Israel initiated the 1967 war, which is the farthest thing from the truth. Instead of a fight for the survival by a country that was set upon by three of its neighbors, you've turned it into some kind of land grab on the part of the Israelis. The Six-Day War, The 6-Day War, 1967 Interesting how some are willing to rewrite history in order to support their political position, I'm not impressed by this type of highly questionable rhetoric. You're actually undercutting your own position by posting this stuff. I urge you to pick up a legitimate history book.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:39:53 AM EST
    Its in our best interests to pave Crawford (North and South). Also it would solve that out-of-control brush problem. Two birds with one stone. So to speak.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#61)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:45:54 AM EST
    Sharon gave land back to the Palestinians, now this. What's your final solution?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:00:44 AM EST
    So Aaron, you're denying that they receive that much aid? Alot of nations would have a good chance of "prospering" under those circumstances. No doubt they're marvelous, flawed, human beings -- like the rest of the human race. If stating that proposition makes me "anti-semitic" so be it. Btw, you might be interested to know that Weisel said "The bomb has made us all Jews." I happen to agree. Rhetoric shmetoric.

    Bob in Pacifica wrote:
    The two soldiers seized by Hezbollah were in the Shebaa Farms territory which is either Lebanese territory that Israel hasn't withdrawn from, or Syrian territory that Israel hasn't withdrawn from. In Pother words, according to Hezbollah and international law, the Israeli soldiers were breaking the law by being in Lebanese territory.
    From an AP story by JOSEPH PANOSSIAN: Israeli troops crossed into a southwestern sector of Lebanon across the border from where the soldiers were seized, trying to keep their captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli security officials said. The top U.N. official in Lebanon, Geir Pedersen, met with Lebanon's prime minister and denounced Hezbollah's incursion across the border into northern Israel, known as the Blue Line.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:08:07 AM EST
    And if being a state of almost continual conflict and low-level warfare is your idea of prospering, then I think we may need to reexamine the meaning of the word prosper.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#65)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:11:06 AM EST
    Jondee, Weisel also often lectured that Jews should stop marrying gentiles, as it was leading to cultural genocide. Do you agree with that too? The "bomb making everyone jews" is a lame statement, made by a generally brilliant man.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:18:56 AM EST
    Roger - Im a little slow sometimes. Please explain how it's lame.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#67)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:23:14 AM EST
    Jondee, Have you ever suffered racial discrimination because of the bomb? Are there organized groups organized to kill you, because of the bomb? Racism is an end, the bomb is a (possible) means. It is like saying that the machete has made us all black.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 08:30:21 AM EST
    Roger - The bomb may be a means, but it's the ultimate means. If your claiming it's just another tool that can be misused, I respectfully disagree. It's an historical obscenity that makes a mockery of our "higher aspirations" IMO. As does the history of racism, scapegoating, the pursuit of mercenary forms of "self interest" etc. On the other hand, turning the actual history of a people into a metaphor can be a way of dispensing with the actual history altogether. Still, I concur with the spirit of what I think Weisel was attempting to convey.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 08:35:52 AM EST
    Btw - Whats with the "final soloution" crack?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 09:23:34 AM EST
    Roger - I'll grant that my "chosen" remark was uncalled for. Im painfully aware of the kind of morally and intellectually bankrupt "protocals" type b.s that circulates out of alot of the Arab countries. My problem is that I have next-to-no patience left for the group narratives and mythologies anymore. Actual history and science are compelling, instructive and mystical enough without all the addition of every group's special version of Manifest Destiny which only seem to lead to more suffering and bloodshed.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#71)
    by Al on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 10:19:46 AM EST
    I googled "us israel aid" and found this congressional report from 2001. The summary is a bit long to cut and paste excerpts from, but essentially Israel gets about $5bn annually from the US, with lots of nice perks such as forgiven loans, a pledge to provide economic assistance equivalent to the amount owed for previous loans, and of course invaluable military technical assistance. I had never thought of it this way, but it sounds to me almost like a US military outpost in the Middle East. Given that Israel without US economic and military support would simply not exist by now, I wonder to what extent Israel may be considered to be an independent country at all.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#72)
    by Al on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 10:29:46 AM EST
    Hezbollah set an Israeli ship on fire with an unmanned drone, in all probability of Iranian origin. So if we think of Israel as an American military outpost, and Hezbollah as an armed force commanded from Iran, then the US and Iran are effectively at war right now, by proxy.

    The violence in this part of the world is just never going to end. There are always going to be radical Muslims looking to pick a fight with Israel- this will never change. Israel needs to get a grip and understand that disproportionate attacks on innocent civilians only fan the flames of hatred that keep the cycle going. Hezbollah and Hamas are never going to take the high road- it's just so depressing to watch Israel take their bait and further anger the Arab world.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#74)
    by Lww on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 12:16:40 PM EST
    Israel wants to "buy" $210 million in jet fuel from the US. Immediately I think. Must be for El Al.... Also, below is a list of politicians in this country urging Israel to avoid killing civilians:

    Al posted:
    The summary is a bit long to cut and paste excerpts from, but essentially Israel gets about $5bn annually from the US.
    Given that Israel without US economic and military support would simply not exist by now, I wonder to what extent Israel may be considered to be an independent country at all.
    Perhaps you might keep on googling... Israel's GDP for 2004 was estimated at 130 billion. The U.S. assistance amounted to under 4% of GDP. Israel is also one of the leading arms exporters (and no it is not U.S technology) in the world exporting over 3 billion dollars annually of home grown technology in this area. I'm guessing that without U.S. aid they would survive just fine, even better if the rest of the Arab world would just leave them alone. But since so many in that part of the world would like to 'annihilate them' like the happy go lucky pres of Iran, I'm guessing that's not going to happen. Egypt receives about $2billion dollars a year in U.S. aid with more than 60% being military. Since the Egyptian defense industry produces virtually no high tech armaments I wonder if you might say that Egypt would simply cease to exist without U.S. aid. Of course the only country that would be invading Egypt would be Israel. Oh wait, they already fought a few wars in which Egypt invaded Israel. Israel won and then they returned the entire Sinai Peninsula including an oil field probably worth in excess of $100 billion for a peace treaty that has held for almost 25 years. Now why would the evil Zionists whose goal is supposed to be a greater Israel across the whole mideast do this?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#76)
    by Lww on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 12:21:00 PM EST
    Where are the "peace" democrats right now? Why do they sit on their hands? Oh, I forgot,it's Israel.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#77)
    by BigTex on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 12:57:19 PM EST
    The Arab world met and spoke. Here is what was said (in part)
    Meanwhile, Lebanon sought support from fellow Arabs at an emergency session of foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday. But sharp rifts erupted over as moderate Arab states denounced Hezbollah for starting the conflict. Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal called the group's actions "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible," telling his counterparts: "These acts will pull the whole region back to years ago, and we cannot simply accept them." Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, delegates said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks. Another camp, led by Syria, defended Hezbollah as carrying out "legitimate acts in line with international resolutions and the U.N. charter, as acts of resistance," delegates said.
    Seems that the Arab world is split, but a majority of the governments are condemning Hezbollah. A few here have said I'm spewing propagana. That's rich considering those who complain are the biggest propoganda spewers here. On the one hand, Israel takes pains to minimize civilian damage, yes there are failures and exceptions, on the other hand, hezbollah takes care to target civilian targets indiscriminatly There is no moral equivilent here. Many here simply don't get it. Hezbollah and Hamas have stated their goal as pushing Israel into the sea. They are official government intenties. That makes their action state action. That makes it open warfare. We would not tolerate Mexico shooting rockets into El Paso or San Deigo. Why should Israel tolerate those government shooting rockets into her cities? Israel isn't escalating the situation, they are merely reacting closer to in kind to how they have been attacked. Everyone here seems to forget, this could be over in a week, espically in Gaza, which has been forgotten. All Isreal has to do is a total blockaid. No fuel, food or water goes in. In a week the population is too weak to resist. Then Israel goes in and levels large tracts to be kill zones. Anyone going into the area is killed. That would stop most of the rockets, and would stop the suicide bombings. That is easily within Isreal's power to accomplish.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#78)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 01:53:53 PM EST
    Tex, Seems to be a waste of time to explain this to some here, their hatred of Israel is too strong. Every country that wants peace with Israel has it.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#79)
    by Andreas on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 02:09:34 PM EST
    Aaron wrote:
    I'm bothered by this kind of propaganda, which would lead some to believe that Israel initiated the 1967 war, which is the farthest thing from the truth. Instead of a fight for the survival by a country that was set upon by three of its neighbors, you've turned it into some kind of land grab on the part of the Israelis.
    I suggest to read this article: The political dead end of Labour Zionism Part 3--The June 1967 &"Six Day War"--A turning point in the evolution of Israel By Jean Shaoul, 7 April 2001 I also commend this book which contains a chapter on that war: Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict By Norman G. Finkelstein

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#80)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 02:21:49 PM EST
    Every country that wants peace with Israel has it.
    Of course the Palestinians dont have a country. There are those extremists in Israel especially in the Likud party and the settlers who dont want a palestinian state. The obvious truth you refuse to see is that the continued and increased oppression over the last year has given the extremists in Hamas etc more credibility just as the US actions in Iraq give the insurgents more credibility. Your failure to even acknowledge any mis-steps by Israel make you part of the problem. The extremists are now firmly in charge everywhere, the US, Israel, Syria etc. If the last 50 years should have taught us anything is that extreme brutality on any side never leads to a solution. It never has and never will. So rejoice in your self-rightousness. The bloodbath is underway and the blowback will eventually be monumental.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#81)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 02:26:03 PM EST
    Aaron-
    It seems the rhetoric of the anti-Semites has been adopted by many.
    What a load of crap. You should be ashamed of yourself. For someone who usually writes smart and sensible comments this is very surprising. There are many jews, myself included who are exrtremely critical of right wing Israeli policies, and who are well aware of its history. A history that began with v (Stern Gang masters of the car bomb) and then UN stepping in to carve up Palestine disproportionaltely in 1947. Previously Palestine was 30% jewish, with 7% ownership of land got over 55% of the land. After 1948 war they "won" 78% of the land. Whatever your religion or politics to call critics of Israel anti-semitic is cowardly and a sort of blackmail that has been going on far too long. Shame on you Aaron.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#82)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 02:45:18 PM EST
    SD, Actually, I have had many differences with Israeli policy over the years. That does not change the fact that much of the rhetoric is anti-Israeli crap. Latest word is that Israel has offered a cease fire if Hezbollah gives its rockets to the Lebanese army, pulls back from the border, and let the Lebanese patrol the border.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#83)
    by Al on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 02:50:06 PM EST
    david_in_ct, Israel has an annual trade deficit of $3bn. From the CIA World Factbook:
    Israel usually posts sizable current account deficits, which are covered by large transfer payments from abroad and by foreign loans. Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US, which is its major source of economic and military aid.
    According to the same source, 15.45% of Israel's land is arable land, 3.88% has permanent crops, and 80.67% is "other", i.e. sand. With a population of 6.3 million, 1.5 million males and 1.4 million females are available for military service. That's 46% of the population. 31% of the population are listed as civil servants. I think that without external assistance Israel would not be a viable country. Moreover, it seems very narrowly focused on making war, a notoriously unproductive activity. The US involvement in Israel is remarkably heavy. It makes no sense for the US to be so heavily involved without getting anything in exchange. I doubt very much the Israeli lobbyists are so fantastic that they have completely mesmerized US administrations for decades. I think a very good case can be made that there is a symbiotic relationship between the US and Israel. The US gives Israel the means to survive in spite of being surrounded by countries that hate them, and along with protecting itself, Israel protects US interests in the region.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#85)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 03:18:04 PM EST
    LWW, I've been to Irish bars in NYC. No love for the Brits in some of them. Some even openly fund raise for the IRA.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#86)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 03:23:22 PM EST
    Opinion in Lebanon appears to be .divided.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 05:24:20 PM EST
    I like what Duke Ellington said when he was asked if he wrote music for his people: My people? You mean the ones that like to drink a glass of beaujolais and watch the sunset? The ones that ones that like to take a Sunday drive in the country? The ones that love to hear the laughter of little children?

    Al opined:
    I think that without external assistance Israel would not be a viable country. Moreover, it seems very narrowly focused on making war, a notoriously unproductive activity.
    The basis for the claim:
    Israel has an annual trade deficit of $3bn.
    With a GDP of 129 billion this puts the trade deficit at about 2.5% of GDP somewhat less than half of the current trade deficit of the U.S. Trade deficits are usually signs of strong foreign direct investment. There are currently many international high tech companies putting money into Israel. Israel has the highest per capita number of engineers in the world, exceeding that of the U.S. by about 60%. I'll bet you didn't know that Intel has several large R&D facilities in Israel. Their first microprocessor the 8088 was designed there. If you are typing on an intel based laptop chances are the chip inside is an Intel Centrino, also designed in Israel. Warren Buffet just paid 4 billion dollars for an 80% stake in an Israeli metal working company. Perhaps he should have been informed of Israel's potential lack of viability before he wrote the check.
    According to the same source, 15.45% of Israel's land is arable land, 3.88% has permanent crops, and 80.67% is "other", i.e. sand.
    I guess this is to show that Israel is not viable because they could not feed the population without external supply. How about a little 5th grade math using numbers from the same source: Israel total land approximately 10000 sq miles. Arable land 15% = 1500 square miles. Population about 6,000,000. Arable land per capita 1500 / 6000000 = .00025 sq miles per person arable land. Here are the stats about another well known country: 234,000 square miles 127,000,000 people 12% arable land. 234,000 * .12 = 28,000 total sq miles arable land. 28,000 / 127,000,000 = .00022 per capita sq miles arable land. This other country which by your logic should not be viable is Japan. Oddly enough they have managed to keep it together for several hundred years. Israel does run a small trade deficit in agriculture (< .5% GDP less than Japan) but I'm guessing that is because it is more profitable to develop high tech than to grow fruits and vegetables.
    With a population of 6.3 million, 1.5 million males and 1.4 million females are available for military service. That's 46% of the population. 31% of the population are listed as civil servants.
    Yes, in Israel it is mandatory to serve in the armed forces. All persons who go thru the armed forces (2 - 3 years depending on sex) are then reservists until their mid forties. Perhaps if they were not under the constant threat of attack they could change this system. It's been my experience that looking up relavant facts and then drawing a conclusion is a more sensible way of forming an opinion, than forming an opinion and then seeing if you can find some odd facts to support it.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#89)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:06:13 PM EST
    of the rhetoric is anti-Israeli crap.
    Sorry that not all of us are Zionists.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#90)
    by roger on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:11:10 PM EST
    SD, Are these people zionists? They seem more middle of the road than you on this topic.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#91)
    by Al on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:33:18 PM EST
    david_in_ct, it appears I've touched a nerve. You're obviously ignoring the facts I quoted about Israel's foreign debt and its dependence on the US, and you're making an absurd comparison with Japan. So Intel has a manufacturing plant in Israel. It also has plants in the Philippines, Ireland, and Costa Rica, to name a few. Intel is all over the place. Of course Israel has to devote a large proportion of its tiny population to war, because it is in a permanent state of war. That's my point; there is no way Israel could maintain such an advanced military force, including nuclear weapons, with a tiny population of 6 million on a virtually sterile strip of land, without crucial external economic and military assistance, which is very generously provided by the US. It's no use saying "if only others would stop attacking Israel". They do; that's the reality. The question I am trying to draw attention to is, what is the US getting out of the deal? Or is all that assistance just given out of love?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#92)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:44:30 PM EST
    We need to hear more from and about the voices of moderation over there. A huge part of the problem is the U.S media's (intentional?) commitment to focusing on the lurid, inflammatory, and polarizing elements in the M.E, instead of taking a modicum of responsibility to expose the public to those who have been working long and hard towards sane, peaceful soloutions.

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:54:58 PM EST
    There's always been more than one "Zionism" btw. We tend to forget that. There's been some very, forward looking, humanistic people associated with the Zionist movement, but as in the Muslim world, the nutcases and warmongers have gotten most of the coverage. Power wants division and polarization.

    Al:
    it appears I've touched a nerve.
    Yes, you have touched a nerve. I find it difficult to have a discussions where facts are relegated to the discard pile. My bad.
    You're obviously ignoring the facts I quoted about Israel's foreign debt and its dependence on the US.
    If you would have taken the time to read the q1 2006 external position of Israel's finances as compiled by their central bank you would find out that their net debt position is -26 billion dollars. This means that they hold 26 billion dollars more in foreign debt than their debt is held by foreigners. For comparison purposes the U.S. net foreign debt is in excess of 2 trillion dollars.
    and you're making an absurd comparison with Japan.
    I was simply responding to a set of numbers on Israels arable land which you posted. I showed the equivalent set for the nation of Japan and showed that Israel has more arable land per capita than does Japan. What is it about this that is absurd other than your supposition that Israel could not feed itself?
    So Intel has a manufacturing plant in Israel. It also has plants in the Philippines, Ireland, and Costa Rica, to name a few. Intel is all over the place.
    Actually Intel has several plants in Israel along with R&D and design facilities. At the end of last year they announced another 3.5 billion dollar manufacturing plant was to be built. Israel has more companies (about 70) listed on the Nasdaq than than any other country on the planet except for the U.S. Here is a quote from an Israeli magazine referencing a visit by Bill Gates last year: Claiming Israel "is part of the Silicon Valley," Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates praised the successful high-tech industry of the Jewish State where he is currently on a 24-hour visit. "Israel is doing fantastic things in the area of technology and I'm excited to be here," he said, adding the country was home to numerous remarkable talents." Think Gates stopped by because of the weather? For some reason you appear to not be able to accept the fact that Israel has a vibrant and successful high tech industry.
    The question I am trying to draw attention to is, what is the US getting out of the deal? Or is all that assistance just given out of love?
    Let's see, how about supporting the only representative democracy that part of the world has ever known and getting a powerful military ally plus all of its intelligence capabilities in the process. How about a full range of technological partnership both military and civilian with a world class scientific establishment. Seems like a good deal to me. Let me guess, deep down you believe that if only Israel would get wiped off the map, all those happy go lucky islamic militants whose stated goals are to have Islam be the religion of the planet and to have sharia as the ultimate law of the land would suddenly see the light, lose the headgear, become our best friends and we could all throw down some cold ones and have a good laugh..

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#95)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 09:20:53 PM EST
    Dont kid yourself, "deep down" all gentiles believe that. Happy now? Or should I say sufficiently miserable but vindicated for all time?

    Re: Israelis in Haifa Ordered Into Bomb Shelters, (none / 0) (#84)
    by Lww on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 10:20:56 PM EST
    Roger, what country do you swear your loyalty to? It's usually only one. The fact that you're Jewish and love Israel should not close your eyes to what's been going on for the last forty years. The Palestinians have gotten the short end, while Israel has thrived; thanks to American largesse on one hand and American support of Israels iron fist on the other. My parents are from Ireland. You think the Irish in the "street" in NYC cheered when a British soldier was killed?