home

Wednesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 12:18:19 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

There's a lot going on today-- from Haditha and Murtha (Taylor Marsh has the full scoop) to the release of the 9/11 Norad tapes (Kevin Drum has some thoughts on them) to the countdown to the Joe Lieberman-Ned Lamont primary (Firedoglake has all the latest). Here's an open thread to talk about it and any other topics. After spending the last five days entrenched in the Twilight Zone, I'm ready for a break and something less stressful today, like visiting a few clients in jail.

Thanks to those of you who donated to TalkLeft yesterday to help me with the site fix-it costs. I'll be sending you personal e-mails this weekend. There's still a lot to cover, so if any more of you feel like helping out, here's how:

< Bush's New Detainee Trial Plan Should Be Rejected | Kansas Voters Say Yes to Evolution >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Wednesday Open Thread | 50 comments (50 topical)
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Patrick on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:06:16 PM EST
    OK, heard a funny one. President Bush's medical exam was just completed and released for the public to view. One Dr was hear telling another that based on the results of the exam the president was as healthy as an ox, to which the other replied, "yup, only dumber."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:21:18 PM EST
    Since you mentioned Lieberman-Lamont, here's something possibly amusing: Famous Quotes From Politicians on Their Way Out.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:57:25 PM EST
    Patrick - Wow. Now that's an original premise...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:00:54 PM EST
    9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes How did the U.S. Air Force respond on 9/11? Could it have shot down United 93, as conspiracy theorists claim? Obtaining 30 hours of never-before-released tapes from the control room of NORAD's Northeast headquarters,
    There is a long read and some audio here.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by aw on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:32:21 PM EST
    Patrick - Wow. Now that's an original premise...
    So, what's your point, PPJ?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:38:57 PM EST
    PPJ, Yeah, it's an old meme, but I laughed so I thought I'd share the moment. I saw a picture of him today too. Across the top of the picture was the caption "Like a Rock"..On the bottom was "Only dumber." I thought that was funny too. If you can't laugh at your president, who can you laugh at? Comedians have been using president for material since before I was alive. No sense getting too sensitive to it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by aw on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:40:22 PM EST
    I was catching up at Altercation and saw this: Now the Pentagon tells Bush: climate change will destroy us link Apologies, etc. if this was already posted and I missed it. Otherwise, fasten your seat belts.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Aaron on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:46:40 PM EST
    Miami Vice rocks I went to see Miami Vice the other night, I wanted to do it without reading anything or hearing anything from anybody, and I managed to do that. Let me just start out by saying Wow! What a fantastic piece of filmmaking. The opening sequences are the epitome of the Miami club scene, great music in the opening minutes and throughout the movie, as is always the case in Michael Mann's movies. I couldn't help moving with the beat and feeling the urge to dance. Something you notice immediately about this movie is the manner in which its shot, lots of tight close frames that actually give something of a closed in feel and limited perspective, this works well in these opening sequences where people are packed into this club. Immediately you get the sense of being in the crowd, a rather confusing mass of arms and bodies and faces. Somehow this is indicative of Miami nights. It's a technique which sets up a pattern throughout much of the rest of the movie. It seems as if the steady cam is turned off as the action bounces around, almost as if you were actually walking or moving your head in the scenes. A quite daring technique I think. The opening action sequences may be confusing from the audience's perspective you've just stepped into Crockett and Tubbs's life in the middle of some kind of undercover operation, no set up whatsoever. This doesn't much matter since you're being given so much to look at, you hardly notice you don't have any idea what's going on initially. Immediately we move to a speeding car flying underneath the yellow orange sodium lights which dominate the interstate streets and flyovers of Miami. From there to a shot of the Miami skyline taken from the top of one of a downtown building, the sodium lights stretching to the horizon. Somehow this Miami is a more familiar to me than any other images I've seen in any movie to date. It's only at this point do we get an idea of what's happening in the storyline. I should say spoiler alert , but I don't think anything I tell you about what happens in the story could spoil this movie. So read on if you dare. We move to a shot of a drug deal gone bad, which is something of an understatement. Be warned the violence in this movie is brutal and viciously graphic. The exchange of gunfire in this scene is the type of thing you might see in Iraq right now. 50 caliber sniper rifles opening up on a vehicle, and the frighteningly realistic effects of those projectiles on that vehicle and the people inside, shockingly depicted in painfully slow motion. From there we go to a roadside scene under the sodium lights again where we get to see something that only Florida State Troopers and traffic cops usually run across. The money shot is only a few seconds, but it is sickeningly true to life as well. It's obvious that this movie was shot during the summer, the moisture in the air distorting the lights into a kind of diffuse halo so familiar to anyone who's lived here. In the summertime Miami is about as tropical as cities get in the US. This is in contrast to the night shots in Michael Mann's last movie Collateral, where the lights are crystal clear in the dry air of LA. We are only 10 minutes into the movie, and we've already seen more action than you would normally see in the first 30 minutes of your standard action flick. It's a good thing you only get small doses because it's very intense. Although Miami is a virtually flat city with hardly more than a few feet of elevation change over great distances, between the high-rise shots, the elevated highway shots, and a downtown rooftop parking garage shot, Mann and he the cinematographer Dion Beebe have given us multiple perspectives of an area, providing a relieving counterpoint to the earlier tight shot technique, setting up another visual theme throughout the movie, multiple perspectives of all the locations and action. This method moves you quickly from being an observer from a distance to intimately involved in the action. At this point I think I began to realize that the dialogue was less important than the shots of people's faces. They were telling the story while the dialogue just seems to filled in some of the gaps. Without warning your transported to the site of a bust, once again closing in the camera work to tight close shots which create some intentionally confusing imagery. You find yourself on the ground as if you were the perp being cuffed. At this point I heard the Haitian Creole phrase "ferme bouche" (shut your mouth) something one of my friends has often chided me with when I act up. It's rather rude, the kind of thing that either makes someone smile, or makes them angry, depending on where it's coming from. A nice bit of realism and acknowledgment of the Haitian people and culture who've always been a strong part of the South Florida community and economy. In the next scene we are presented with a Florida morning shot from a condo on the beach, hazy and undefined and overcast, it's hard to tell exactly where the clouds and sky end and the water begins. Naomi Harris, the British actress from 28 Days Later plays Trudy in this movie. She's hot, can act, and has a real presence, though her role like everyone else's is muted for the sake of moving the story. We see her in a shower scene with Jamie Foxx with the camera closing in once again. Nice to see people bodies depicted as they really are in these situations much the way they would look if you are standing next to them in the shower. These shots are intimate without being graphic or vulgar in any way. The bodies of the actors are not objectified just shown doing what men and women do in the shower. Between the city night shots and these scenes you begin getting a sensation of heat that seems to build throughout the movie. Heat is a big part of the life down here, and it seems to affect every aspect of life to some extent, people's sexuality not the least. A level of warmth is also reflected in these two actors emotional interplay giving you a sense of their relationship. Next we find ourselves in South America, an entirely different place, but the heat keeps building. Multiple images cross over each other and blend together transporting you along without anything being said. If you look here you'll notice another continuing theme throughout the movie, shots of people's hands moving through the shadows blurring and swinging out of frame drawing your eyes but reminding you that things are happening outside of the shot that you can't see. In the next scene you see Ricardo on a Lear jet, and we are transported to Haiti. Stitched together power lines over narrow streets and old buildings dating back decades, peeling paint and pastel colors with that kind of fluorescent Caribbean twist to their hues. Here we get to see Crockett and Tubbs do their undercover thing, revealing themselves to be just as crazy as the people they go after. Some of that famous attitude that these characters displayed in the TV show is touched upon. This isn't a remake of Miami Vice, its Miami Vice with the volume turned all the way up to 2006. I think this was the show that perhaps Michael Mann wanted to make all along. Maybe we're just now getting to see it. In one of the first scenes, with Li Gong (Isabella) we see close-ups of people's hands again, so close you can see the imperfections in her manicure. Looks and glances are saying things well beyond the surface dialogue, and none of it is obvious or overly contrived. Once again we are off, this time on some of the most advanced civilian turboprop aircraft available today skating through the kind of rugged vertical greenery you'll only find on mountainous Caribbean islands like Hispaniola, beautiful aviation footage. The locations change so fast it's hard to keep track, next we are in the Overtown part of Miami with another type of aging architecture that's disappearing all over South Florida except in those depressed areas where no one is interested in building anything new. From there to a high dollar modern home on the water which apes the old Florida styles in some ways and is surrounded by manicured grounds separated by a canal from an island blanketed with wild mangroves. Soon Crockett takes off with Isabella for Cuba. This is reminiscent of the time in Florida's past, a time when my mother was young and everyone who lived or came to Miami would regularly visit Cuba. As in the movie, on a calm day with a fast boat you can hit the northern coast of Cuba in an hour from Key West. If it weren't for Castro everyone would go there on the weekends still. Again when the scene moves to Havana, or an approximation of Havana, you can feel the heat permeating this film, it's the kind of heat which promotes sexual activity between men and women in a very natural way. Even though everything is somewhat exaggerated, this is the Caribbean and the Florida that I seem to know, and touches on those elements which draws people to this area. The camera work which felt so closed in and confining during the action shots effectively pulling you into these scenes between the couple on their getaway. It almost makes you a part of their intimacy. There is a second shower scene, this time with Crockett and Isabella in this mythical Cuba, sunlight filtering into the room revealing the lovers selectively. Dark hair matted across Li Gong's moist skin glowing in the warm sun, so close you could seemingly touch her. The Digital filmmaking used in this movie reveals a depth and quality and detail different from film. The texture of skin and the subtleties of sweat on a brow are somehow different and fresh in a sense. Some of the shots have grainy quality, but this distortion seems to add to the realism of those images somehow. Late in the movie we get to see some of those familiar iridescent blues under bridges and elsewhere perhaps paying homage to what was so common to the Miami Vice TV show. Michael Mann does violence the way no one else seems able, all in your face. Not the typical Hollywood thing. It's rather unappealing, much like real violence. He seems to have a gift for capturing that raw, final and awful quality of the real thing. Once Trudy gets injured Crockett takes it personal and we get to see the danger inherent in his personality, simmering beneath the surface. Much like the original show, Tubbs doesn't have a lot of lines, but Jamie doesn't seem to need them to make his presence felt. He's always there to back up his partners, no-frills or hype or funny lines, just business. All during the hostage rescue and bomb detonation scene we are again given shots of hands, gripping the edge of a doorway, removing an explosive device, holding the phone, tapping a keyboard, limp on the ground after the explosion. This subtle and effective dramatic device seems to quietly permeate the entire movie. In the aftermath of violence as the cops wait at the hospital to see if one of their friends is going to make it. The last shot in the ICU is Jamie's dark hand holding on to the white blanket covering Trudy. I'm not sure if this is an art film masquerading as gratuitous entertainment or an action flick masquerading as an art film, but I am sure that Michael Mann has woven something together which is no less than a work of art, and more entertaining than most movies that try much harder to entertain. As good writers and storytellers understand, Mann gives just what is needed to tell the story, and discards the rest. This movie is all meat, no side dishes In the final showdown, Mann proves once again that he is the undisputed master of the firefight. The audio recording of the gunfire is no less than a masterwork. The actors were obviously using full loads or better judging by the sound and muzzle flashes. When experts/actors go to work with automatic weapons people get perforated by gunfire, it isn't pretty, cool or glorious it's just deadly. When Jamie Foxx goes to work with the shotgun, just like the old Tubbs once did, the 12 gauge does all the talking and the people who hear it don't hear anything else again. I heard lots of cheers and clapping from the crowd in the movie theater when the bad guys got dusted, very satisfying in a viscerally tangible way. There's also something of a sniper shoot out which emphasizes the importance of getting the first shot in, as opposed to the size or effectiveness of your armaments. All in all a stupendous flick that will keep you riveted, and which proves that a great action flick can also be a well told story. It's the kind of movie I'll watch again and again soaking up all the visual imagery with delight. If you appreciate realistic violence, continuous movement, genius production values, and superior artistry in cinematography, do yourself a favor and go see it. You won't be disappointed. I predict many awards for this film, and Oscar nominations for best picture, best director and cinematography.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Johnny on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:46:49 PM EST
    Turns out the arab who shot up the Jewish center in Seattle was (much to the dismay, I am sure, of idiot-winger bloggers everywhere) a born again christian. link The house voted to raise the minimum wage, but in a typical bout of a$$holery, they attached a rider - decreasing the estate tax.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Johnny on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:54:07 PM EST
    Aw, great link. *Hides, ready for the idiot-winger blasts against The guardian*

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by aw on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:57:32 PM EST
    Aaron, isn't there some fan site where you can post loooong movie reviews?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by aw on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:59:27 PM EST
    Johnny, they can blast the Guardian, but what about the Pentagon? I suppose it's all infiltrated by liberal tree-huggers?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:05:20 PM EST
    well johnny, we must nurture all those born to great wealth. possibly, the george w. bush is among them. :)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:05:42 PM EST
    well johnny, we must nurture all those born to great wealth. possibly, the next george w. bush is among them. :)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by John Mann on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:32:20 PM EST
    Patrick wrote:
    President Bush's medical exam was just completed and released for the public to view.
    I heard about that exam. Seems like the White House doctor was summoned to the presidential bedroom where he found Mr. Bush sitting on the edge of the bed with a huge toad on his head. "My Goodness!" exlaimed the doctor, "What happened"? "Dunno, Doc," said the toad, "It started out as a wart on my ass!" I know.. it's old and Jim, you can pick any president.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by roy on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:34:11 PM EST
    aw & Johnny, This (PDF) is the report in question. It's actually pretty interesting, and readable for a layman. However, the Guardian article misrepresents the report as a prediction; it's more of a what-if. As in "where we describe concrete weather conditions and implications, our aim is to further the strategic conversation rather than to accurately forecast what is likely to happen with a high degree of certainty." When journalists present the most dire hypotheticals, out of context, it just undermines the effort to make intelligent decisions. Will somebody who takes the bold-text claim that "Britain will be 'Siberian' in less than 20 years" seriously be able to contribute to public discourse?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by John Mann on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:36:30 PM EST
    Turns out the arab who shot up the Jewish center in Seattle was (much to the dismay, I am sure, of idiot-winger bloggers everywhere) a born again christian.
    That's a surprise. Most of those guys are rabid judophiles, aren't they, Jim?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:39:07 PM EST
    Aaron, isn't there some fan site where you can post loooong movie reviews?
    That was a review? From the length I thought it was the shooting script;-)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Discovery on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:50:59 PM EST
    Johnny, A 30 year old Muslim goes to a Baptist church for a four months because "He seen too much anger in Islam". After not going for five months he delares himself an "angry Muslim" and kills Isrealis. And you still don't see a Muslim connection? He even spelled it out. He didn't walk in an say I am an "angry Baptist". This is kind of like calling a twenty year smoker, who is smoking now and calls himself a smoker, a "non-smoker", because he quit once a few months ago. Nice logic.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by aw on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:04:10 PM EST
    Roy, I read the report and it's scary enough. We're squandering our resources on war instead of preparing for the future. And we don't know that it won't be in the near future. It says that.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:18:41 PM EST
    Discovery, read this and let me know if you think Haq was a 'muslim extremist' or nuts.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Discovery on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 05:34:21 PM EST
    Sailor, I couldn't possible begin to argue this guy was sane. But I also couldn't argue the sanity of a Muslim terrorist either. This country isn't short of people who have a hard time holding a job. Or homeless. Or upset Muslims. Upset Israelis. Upset Baptists. Or people upset at US foreign policy. But they aren't killing. I'm not sure what doesn't make a Muslim extremist: When a Muslim upset at mid-east foreign policy is blowing away Israelis with a gun while screaming "I am an angry Muslim and I hate Jews", pretty much fits the bill of Muslim extremist. Honestly I can't understand why there is such an effort NOT to call him a Muslim, a terrorist or an extremist by referencing his employment history, checking his residency, or brief visitations to other churches. I'll leave the argument here. We can agree to disagree. I'm not trying to start a long thread. But I have a hard time seeing this one.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:02:01 PM EST
    Patrick - Point? That the joke is a tired worn out attack talking point. You know, Bush dumb. Actually I wouldn't have thought that of you. Anyway, I always get a chuckle out of it.... but rom the joke, but from the teller... Let's see Yale, Harvard... Fighter pilot... twice Governor, twice President.. yessir, no doubt he is dumb... Does the Left have any idea how stupid jokes and saying things like, "dim bulb, etc... make them look?? Especially when his GPA was higher than the Left's last hero, Kerry? That worked with Ford vs Carter, but the Internet, Talk Radio and the 24 hour news channels have taken that tactic away. And that is a pity, because there are numerous issues that could be used on Bush.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:09:18 PM EST
    John Mann - Discovery said it all, but let me repeat. He was a Moslem terrorist. He did say:
    "I am an angry Muslim and I hate Jews",
    But I guess you don't want to believe the guy. Probably lying. You know how those born again Christians are. Better yet, he is working for the evileeeee Rove. John, you are pathetic in your judophobia.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:18:17 PM EST
    Let's see Yale, Harvard... Fighter pilot... twice Governor, twice President
    I agree that it is amazing how stupidity is no obstacle to a guy born with a silver shovel in his nose.
    .. yessir, no doubt he is dumb...
    We have heard him attempt and fail to speak his native language. We have heard him tell reporters that disassembling means lying and that sometimes things are subliminable. Nookular. We have heard him say that Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors when in fact GWB did that. We saw him lay overly friendly and unwelcome hands on the person of a head of state. There is no remaining dpoubt that this guy is a moron. An intelligent person says intelligent things. A person who says and does stupid things is stupid. That's how we make these determinations.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Johnny on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:04:52 PM EST
    Discovery, why do people have such a hard time saying "Christian Terrorist" when an idiot murders a doctor? Why do they have such trouble saying "Jewish Terrorist" when a plane drops bombs and kills babies? PPJ - I take issue with your choice of "fighter pilot" to describe Bush. "Fighter" implies "fighting", of which he did not do. Yale/Harvard? Please. A "C" student with political and monetary connections.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by John Mann on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:41:11 PM EST
    Jim said:
    But I guess you don't want to believe the guy. Probably lying. You know how those born again Christians are.
    I don't get it, Jim. I said I was surprised that this guy was reported to be a Christian because I thought Christians were committed judophiles. What's your problem? I would've thought you'd be surprised too.
    John, you are pathetic in your judophobia.
    Jim, you're pathetic. Period. Just a bitter old man. By the way, you still didn't answer my question about what your government won't let you see. Can you receive al-Jazeera tv in the States? Come on, Jim - after all, you brought it up.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 11:35:24 PM EST
    Let's see Yale, Harvard... Fighter pilot... twice Governor, twice President.. yessir, no doubt he is dumb...
    all as the result of his parentage, not because of any special merit of his own. kind of left that part out big guy! i know, a mere technicality. you also left out: failure at everything he tried: failure at business, failure at both yale and harvard; failure as a "fighter pilot"; failure as a gov., and now, failure as a president. he does suffer the hobgoblin of a boring consistency, i'll give him that much.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 11:38:09 PM EST
    Let's see Yale, Harvard... Fighter pilot... twice Governor, twice President.. yessir, no doubt he is dumb...
    all as the result of his parentage, not because of any special merit of his own. kind of left that part out big guy! i know, a mere technicality. you also left out: failure at everything he tried: failure at business, failure at both yale and harvard; failure as a "fighter pilot"; failure as a gov., and now, failure as a president. he does suffer the hobgoblin of a boring consistency, i'll give him that much. strangely enough, that other "failure" kerry, was sufficiently above failure to be accepted to law school, while your bud, g.w. wasn't even good enough to be accepted to the the university of tx law school, not exactly one of the prime law schools in the country. coincidently, it was the only school he attempted to gain entry to that dad wasn't an alumnus of. go figure.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 07:02:32 AM EST
    cpniva, You don't like Bush. Fine. But don't like him for policies you don't agree with. Don't get mired in personal attacks spread around in the blogoshpere that aren't really true. I didn't like Clinton because he was a liar, womaniser etc... but thats beside the point. He was a bad president IMHO. Isn't that all that matters?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 07:46:44 AM EST
    I didn't like Clinton because he was a liar, womaniser etc... but thats beside the point. He was a bad president IMHO. Isn't that all that matters?
    The budget balance improved every year of Clinton's presidency. We were at peace, and his anti-terrorism efforts were working until George dismantled them. Aside from his personal behavior, which is none of our business and which did not include sexually harrassing a female head of state with an unwelcome massage, what was your beef with Clinton's results?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 08:42:40 AM EST
    Repack - As you know, or at least should if you have any experience in the world or a spoonful of common sense, those who have family wealth do not always succeed. "Shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves" in three generations is how we say it down south. So while money and family is a help... ask Swimmer Kennedy about that....there is nothing automatic in politics. When it comes to Bush the Left continues to miss this single most important point. The voters believed that Bush was the best choice of those running. When you call him stupid, you are calling the Ameican people stupid. And since the American people aren't stupid, they understand that you consider yourself an elite with more intelligence, etc. That's not the way to win friends and influence people, and it certainly is not the way to win elections. BTW - President Hoover was an engineer and was considered extremely intelligent...
    He exemplified the Efficiency Movement component of the Progressive Era, arguing there were technical solutions to all social and economic problems--
    Those in line at the soup kitchens would probably have disagreed. aw - Since I am sure that you have criticized various actions of the Pentagon, why is it that you think they know anything about so-called Global Warming? Couldn't be a bit biased, could you? Johnny - Take all the issue you want. "Fighter pilot" is commonly used to described those who fly fighter aircraft, just as "airline pilot" is used to describe someone who flies commercial jets for an airline. Welcome to the world of language common usuage. BTW - Why do you try to equate the actions of a single person who is not a member of a terrorist orgainization with the actions of Hizbollah which kidnaps, kills, on a regular and routine basis. Your attempt at moral equivalence is so bedraggled and obviously incorrect it is laughable. But, of course, you did wish that killer of thousands, Castro, a speedy recovery. John Mann - Anyone can set up a dish and pick up al-Jazera and no one will say a word. So what censorship are you writing about? Besides, we have CNN and CBS for that. ;-) Let's revisit your reply about FNC. Does your local cable company carry it? Can you watch it? Can you name the major cities it can be watched in? Smaller cities? BTW - Your comment re judophiles is just an attempt to confuse the issue of the Moslem Terrorist Killer in Seattle. You know it, I know it, the world knows it. Your position in regards to being judophobic is well establishd by your comments in this blog. As for old, yes I am trending in that direction. We all will get there if we're lucky. But your attack on me based on age is silly, and reveals that besides being judophobic, you are also age phobic. Speaks ill of your intelligence. But people with major phobias often have blind spots that destroys their capabilities to think and act rationally. cpinva - If you want to talk about Presidents who failed in various business type attempts I give you Lincoln and Truman. Both hated by many while President, but later recognized for their greatness. As for family connections we can also look at FDR, who did numerous things that hacked off the Japanese and Germans, some of which are thought to have contributed to Japan attacking Peral Harbor. Then there is JFK who fumbled the Bay of Pigs and after taking us to the brink of WWIII and an exchange of nukes with the USSR, got us further involved in Vietnam and had the one man who could have run the south, killed by the CIA. Again, both of these considered to be "great" although Kennedy's position is starting to slide. BTW - You know, if Bush had been accepted at law school he probably would be living in Dallas as a senior member of some frim doing trust work... Yes, that would have given him a place in history... As for school, we all know that it is almost impossible to get admitted to an "elite" school without family connections. Based on what the "elite" schools are turning out now days I would hope that my grandchildren go to good old Land Grant U.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 08:42:49 AM EST
    Oscar... Thanks for that link. Very interesting, however I'm sure a few "facts" won't get in the way of a good theory! see comment below... Repack... and his anti-terrorism efforts were working until George dismantled them. I love how you lefties throw out BS in an effort to try and make things look rosie..thinking you're actually fooling anybody! (or do you actually believe what you say?) Terrorism actually reached our shores under billy boy....the first ever terrorist attacks in this country took place while he was in office!!!! You do remember that don't you?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 08:45:32 AM EST
    repack writs:
    Aside from his personal behavior, which is none of our business
    I expect that you will never comment on his drinking as a young man.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 11:46:57 AM EST
    I expect that you will never comment on his drinking as a young man
    I think that's one of his few redeeming qualities...the ability to have a good time. Or at least he used too before he went all holy-roller. Bill "Spaceman" Lee said GDub was a barrel of laughs when they blew doobies together.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 11:58:14 AM EST
    As you know, or at least should if you have any experience in the world or a spoonful of common sense, those who have family wealth do not always succeed And don't ask PPJ for common sense, his supply is down to a few nanoliters currently :>)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Aaron on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 12:25:12 PM EST
    "...to tolerate ignorant persons, and those who form opinions without consideration:" "If any man is able to convince me and show me that I do not think or act right, I will gladly change; for I seek the truth by which no man was ever injured. But he is injured who abides in his error and ignorance." "The best way of avenging thyself is not to become like the wrong doer." "Look within. Let neither the peculiar quality of anything nor its value escape thee." "From my brother Severus, to love my kin, and to love truth, and to love justice....and from him I received the idea of a polity in which there is the same law for all, a polity administered with regard to equal rights and equal freedom of speech, and the idea of a kingly government which respects most of all the freedom of the governed; ....and in him I observed no concealment of his opinions with respect to those whom he condemned, and that his friends had no need to conjecture what he wished or did not wish, but it was quite plain." (Marcus Aurelius)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 11:25:06 PM EST
    Dear Talkleft Abby(s), About a year ago I went out with a woman I occaisionally work with who was very nice (smart, sexy) but liked Bush (a MA conservative-WTF?), so I was turned off. People told me I was letting my politics interfere with my personal life. But ya gotta draw the line somewhere. The other day we got to talking and she said the three words I had been waiting so long to hear: "Bush is nuts!" Now I know she's still a Repug, but she's also still cute as a bug. But here's kicker: she recently had what we in the biz affectionatley refer to as an "augmentation mammoplasty". Now if I ask her out (again), is any rational person going to think I did it because she expanded her MIND?Though I generally don't give a flying f about what people think of me, I don't want to give HER the wrong idea either. Since this is an open thread, I'm open to advice from either gender as to how to approach this unusual situation.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by John Mann on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:17:35 AM EST
    Jim complained:
    As for old, yes I am trending in that direction. We all will get there if we're lucky. But your attack on me based on age is silly, and reveals that besides being judophobic, you are also age phobic.
    Jim? I'm old too. The difference between you and me is that you are bitter, and I'm not.
    Let's revisit your reply about FNC. Does your local cable company carry it? Can you watch it? Can you name the major cities it can be watched in? Smaller cities?
    Regarding FNC, I don't know if it's available on Cable - I use a dish. It's available from CANADIAN satellite providers, so obviously the CANADIAN government doesn't prevent Canadians from watching it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:33:40 AM EST
    Che, By all means, Ask her out and forget about her mind (that only comes into play several years down the line, if you ever decided to get married-not likely, Right?). Right now, just let your libido decide what you should do. Give us an update soon after on the augmentation. We'll be dying to hear your assessment. ;)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 08:04:13 AM EST
    Che's Lounge-I agree with Peaches. Go for it. What if she enhanced her image for you, er, to overshadow her less appealing attributes (republican). You owe it to yourself to follow your nose on this one, who knows what's down the road, you may influence her politics as well.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 08:34:27 AM EST
    Posted by Johnny
    Why do they have such trouble saying "Jewish Terrorist" when a plane drops bombs and kills babies?
    More suprising is how few people know about the existence of early Jewish Terrorist organizations such as Irgun Zvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Israel (Lehi), as well as the current groups Kach, Kahane Chai, and the Jewish Defense League. In 1947 alone, Irgun claimed to have blown up or killed 347 Arabs and British soldiers and police. Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the future prime minister of Israel. Lehi was considered even more extremist. The former prime minister Yitzhak Shamir was once leader of Lehi. Remember, there is no negotiating with terrorists. Right? Kach members have been responsible for several massacres in Israel. in 2001 JDL members were arrested and covicted for planning terrorist attacks on the office of Arab-American congressmen Daniel Issa and the King Fahd Mosque in California. In 2002, Kahanists placed a massive bomb outside an Arab girl's school in east Jerusalem, set to explode at 7:30 A.M. for maximum carnage. Disaster was avoided by sheer luck when police pulled the terrorists over for a routine stop. But this stuff isn't important, and neither is declaring war or a cease fire, the Red Cross, the U.N., Qana, Tyre, or how exactly the IDF will cripple Hezbollah in a couple of weeks when 18 years of occupation only made them stronger. All that matters is rooting out the terrurihst's, cause otherwise the terrurihst's win. Maybe Nelson Mandela (who led the ANC's terrorist wing, modelled after Begin's Irgun) should be next?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:17:40 AM EST
    Posted by BB August 3, 2006 09:42 AM Oscar... Thanks for that link. Very interesting, however I'm sure a few "facts" won't get in the way of a good theory! see comment below... Repack... and his anti-terrorism efforts were working until George dismantled them. I love how you lefties throw out BS in an effort to try and make things look rosie..thinking you're actually fooling anybody! (or do you actually believe what you say?) Terrorism actually reached our shores under billy boy....the first ever terrorist attacks in this country took place while he was in office!!!! You do remember that don't you?
    Um, Terrorism in this country goes back to at least the 1800's. It seems like a long time since Clinton was President, but I don't think it was that long ago. In fact, I don't even think he was president in 1954 when Puerto Rican Nationalists opened fire with automatic pistols in the US Capitol, shooting 5 congressmen. I think Republican Ike was out protecting America's golf courses from terrorists at the time. You do remember that don't you?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 11:35:33 AM EST
    Peaches & Squeaky, Thanks. You confirmed my inclination. You owe it to yourself to follow your nose on this one, who knows what's down the road, you may influence her politics as well. I think GW is doing that for me.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 11:51:59 AM EST
    You owe it to yourself to follow your nose on this one
    I think GW is doing that for me.
    He put his proboscis in her hooters? That is enough to put anyone off. Merkel just had to put up with his paws.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 11:52:34 AM EST
    You owe it to yourself to follow your nose on this one
    I think GW is doing that for me.
    He put his proboscis in her hooters? That is enough to put anyone off. Merkel just had to put up with his paws.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by HK on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:32:53 PM EST
    Che, You sound as if you've made your mind up, but just thought I'd add a woman's perspective. You should definitely ask her out. She can only say no, and I doubt that she would. If she's seen the light about Bush, I imagine the rest is up for debate too. The surgery is neither here nor there...other than for the fact that if she went to the trouble and expense of having her mammaries enhanced, it probably wasn't so she could stay home and feel them herself. Tsk, tsk, Peaches. I take it your wife doesn't read your posts... BTW, I don't suppose my husband was particularly interested in my mind when we first got together either, but he isn't reckless enough to say so.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Peaches on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:41:42 PM EST
    Tsk, tsk, Peaches. I take it your wife doesn't read your posts...
    LOL No, I know better than that. There is enough war out there. I don't need to start anything at home. But, I will say I wasn't much interested in my wife's mind when we first got together either. Today I'm presently surprised by the quality of it, although not quite as infatuated with her biology as I once was. Although I am sure the feeling is mutual. Marraige seems to do that.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by HK on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 01:01:49 PM EST
    Marraige seems to do that.
    And I thought it was kids that did it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Peaches on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 01:31:03 PM EST
    You're right. Definately the kids. :)

    Wednesday Open Thread | 50 comments (50 topical)