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Weds. Afternoon Open Thread: San Quentin

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:39:14 PM EST
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I'm on a lunch break and due back in court this afternoon. Here's an open thread, led by Johnny Cash singing at San Quentin, home to more than 600 death row inmates. More on life and waiting for death at San Quentin here.

You can read how they kill inmates here. How unfortunate the Supreme Court didn't agree, You wouldn't do a dog this way.

A quote from today's Supreme Court opinion in Baze v. Rees is below.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome. I'll be back for tonight's Hilllary-Obama debate.

Moreover, 23 States, including Kentucky, bar veterinarians from using a neuromuscular paralytic agent like pancuronium bromide, either expressly or, like Kentucky, by specifically directing the use of a drug like sodium pentobarbital....If pancuronium is too cruel for animals, the argument goes, then it must be too cruel for the condemned inmate. Whatever rhetorical force the argument carries, ... it overlooks the States’ legitimate interest in providing for a quick, certain death....[V]eterinary practice for animals is not an appropriate guide to humane practices for humans.

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    • Weds. Afternoon Open Thread: San Quentin | 234 comments (234 topical)
    The Daily Show (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:52:22 PM EST
    I know a lot of you have sworn off The Daily Show.  Here's their take on "Bittergate" if you are interested.  

    Funny (none / 0) (#116)
    by magster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:01:37 PM EST
    "Just what we need, a President who caves in to peer pressure."

    I'd call it responsive to her constituency.

    Parent

    It think Jon Stewart has been relatively (none / 0) (#160)
    by Joelarama on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:31:12 PM EST
    unbiased as between Hillary and Obama, so I haven't sworn off The Daily Show.

    Unlike Air America, Stephanie Miller, and Keith Olbermann.

    Note to Hillary folks: even if you've been excommunicated from the Big Orange, consider going over there at least to update your personal blogrolls to include all the pro-Hillary and fair-to-Hillary blogs that we've grown to love.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by lambert on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:38:17 PM EST
    Not a bad idea.

    While I'm at it, I might carry through on my plan to delete all my content, which was all cross-posted anyhow, and replace it with as many links to the original as are needed for the system not to complain...

    Parent

    Better to let them remember (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:41:25 PM EST
    that someone who was a productive member of the community is gone.

    Parent
    Then I'd have to log on (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by dianem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:46:34 PM EST
    I actually wrote a GBCW diary just so that I'd be too embarrassed to ever post there again. It was my most commented diary (out of 4 I'd written in 5 years). That place is poison for the soul.  I look back at my time there and think of it like a formerly good relationship that went on way too long after it went bad. You can't go back. Or, at least, sometimes you shouldn't.

    Parent
    I just faded away (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:51:41 PM EST
    but yes, I agree that it has all the hallmarks of a bad relationship.

    Parent
    I wrote a TTFN diary... (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:52:43 PM EST
    then never published it. It just seemed easier to wander off into the wilds for a while...and maybe wander back sometime after Denver.

    I do miss some of the people over there...but I don't need the headaches I was getting.

    Parent

    I think I won't be going back (5.00 / 3) (#196)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:57:43 PM EST
    No matter what happens, I just don't respect a lot of people there anymore. I have no desire to chat with them anymore.

    Parent
    I Won't Be Going Back (5.00 / 3) (#207)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:05:50 PM EST
    Lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned when the FP posts (including Kos) started making stuff up just to feed the frenzy of Hillary hatred. It is hard to distinguish it from Little Green Footballs.

    Parent
    It's easy to distinguish them. (none / 0) (#210)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
    The LGF guy is tons smarter than Kos.

    Parent
    Actually, what really (none / 0) (#212)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:11:00 PM EST
    convinced me to leave was when one FPer tried to tell me that there was some difference between dkos and Free Republic. As soon as it sunk in that there really wasn't, I was gone.

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#227)
    by Joelarama on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:25:30 PM EST
    Now that is hilarious/sad.

    Daily Kos is Free Republic with fancy graphics.  And McJoan.  I miss her.

    Parent

    I really miss mcjoan too (5.00 / 1) (#230)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:28:20 PM EST
    but she's on a very short list. . .

    Parent
    She did an interview with G Greenwald (5.00 / 1) (#233)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:32:15 PM EST
    You can check his site to find the link.

    Parent
    I Agree On McJoan (5.00 / 1) (#243)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:53:04 PM EST
    I will miss her and a few others but not enough to go back and support the site even with occasional hits. Once I can't trust what is said, it no longer has value to me.

    Parent
    I like the community diaries. (none / 0) (#213)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:11:28 PM EST
    And go back specifically for them.

    But campaign diaries and the commenters in them are just too much.  People taking Unity and Change as certainties instead of campaign rhetoric AND being deliberately nasty to Clinton at every opportunity -  there is just nothing to discuss with them except how awful Hillary is and how totally awesome Barack is.

    There used to be positive fluff diaries like Edwards Evening News Roundup that made the rec list every day.  Now, at least one dKos SMASH Clinton! diary makes the rec list every day.    

    Parent

    If it were just a few diaries or people (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:14:53 PM EST
    I wouldn't mind. But now the problem is with people I used to respect. No more.

    Parent
    I can't separate that much (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by dianem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:19 PM EST
    Going to Daily Kos the way it is right now is like visiting a party where everybody is standing around with a drink in their hand chatting while a crowd of people defecate in the middle of the floor.

    Parent
    I despised the candidate fluff diaries on the rec (none / 0) (#221)
    by Joelarama on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:30 PM EST
    list.  Waste of valuable space.

    But that's just me.  The inaccurate and infammatory attack diaries on the rec list are the real abomination.  It used to be a Democratic site.

    As for the community diaries, I stopped going.  Back when MSOC kept talking about Kos benefiting from others' genius, I thought it was just whining.  I'm shocked that I agree with her now.

    He gets no hits from me.  The blogroll thing is my one exception.

    Parent

    Well, remember (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:20:10 PM EST
    on a site like Daily Kos, you are the product.

    I think of it as a radio station that changed formats.

    Parent

    Format change - very apropos. (5.00 / 1) (#232)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:31:16 PM EST
    There's a cycle in our regional radio.  Every X many months, all the minor stations shift formats to try to grab another 0.5% of the market share.  I'll hit a preset station and suddenly I'll be listening to romantic pop instead of country.

    Not sure how long the blogs can hold onto this new format with their market shares drying up.

    Parent

    I was planning to wander and then come back. (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by Joelarama on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    That changed when many front page posters went over the edge, and then finally when Kos made it quite clear he felt that Hillary was entitled to no fairness or accuracy, and that her supporters were entitled to no respect.

    Parent
    You mean when he decided that... (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by dianem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:14:05 PM EST
    ...fellow Democrats and former friends were entitled to no fairness or accuracy, don't you? It wasn't just Clinton he trashed. Everybody who supported her, or even just didn't join in ridiculing her, was treated like dirt. He did nothing to control it, in fact he threw gas on the flames. He could have set standards for decency, but he chose a different path. His site is now a magnet for overgrown adolescents who simply want to talk trash. A few grown-ups hang around, either because they are blindly loyal, totally oblivious or think they look cool and hip hanging around with the kids (they don't - the kids make fun of them behind their backs). Markos will make a fortune in ad revenue - that high impact 18-30 demographic. Integrity be damned. He has a family to feed.  

    Parent
    Wonder 'bout that demo, post-election (5.00 / 3) (#244)
    by rghojai on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:57:51 PM EST
    A passing curiosity about how many of the relatively new and young will stick around after the election. On some not-my-better-self level, there's a hope that they don't stick around and the adults don't come back....

     Several months ago, a not-trivial number of us over there were expressing concerns about the tone, approach, etc., relative to Clinton and otherwise. Am far from the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I've some experience with online communities and it didn't feel hard to see where things looked to be going. Heck (ironically enough), Obama told people to chill; Olbermann told people to chill.

    At the time, it felt cynical to think there might be a desire to go down the ugly road for pageviews, attracting people/those who fit a demographic. Now, given that those thoughts and concerns were roundly ignored and at times dismissed in a way that was far from pleasant, it feels naive to have thought otherwise.

    I do wander by once in while to glance at the FP, but what ended any significant interaction was Markos relating that it was open season on HRC because the race was over, she was damaging the party, etc. Felt like that was simply insulting people's intelligence. It was abundantly clear that, for many a month, that tone and approach had been there in a pretty big way. Felt like the justification was far from honest.

    Parent

    I understand. It's been good for me, (none / 0) (#194)
    by Joelarama on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:56:54 PM EST
    because it made me discover how many great blogs there are out there.  DKos is a one-note time suck.

    It might be worth it just to log in and change your blog entries -- it at least increases the chances they will be displayed on the randomized front-page user blogroll.

    Anglachel, Corrente, NYCweboy, Riverdaughter, Shakesville, Mad Kane, Howling Latina, Tom Watson, Suburban Guerrilla, No More Apples, Reclusive Leftist, Blue Lyon, Sugar & Spice, EENR Blog . . . not all of these are new by any stretch, but I ignored them before and have come to appreciate them, especially the diversity of perspective.

    Any others?


    Parent

    subtle texting.. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:58:57 PM EST
    Obama's just announced new delegate supporter joined Obama campaign manager David Plouffe on a media call to announce their support.
    Price: "He is in the strongest position to announce to the world and to execute a new day in American diplomacy"

    Obama himself with Philly Jewish Community and said:
    "That kind of blunt talk is something I can deliver with more credibility than some other presidents might."

    In the media I hear it, Oh!! he can bring the world together, or close the racial divide better than anyone else...

    Well.. can anyone of them tell us why? I understand that he CAN, but I don't understand his WHY he is in better position THAN anyone ELSE .. because all the ones who attempted to tell why are either banished or stereotyped as racist!!

    A Question I Have (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Athena on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:22:52 PM EST
    The Auchi party at Rezko's:

    Why is Obama - the Senate candidate - going to ANY party for a convicted criminal? (Auchi's conviction in November, 2003 - party in April, 2004).

    Parent

    It was a staff mistake.... (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:46:42 PM EST
    ...they forgot to tell him. They also forgot to tell him that he went.

    Parent
    Kerry endorsed Obama because he's black (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:10:37 PM EST
    "He has the ability to help us bridge the divide of religious extremism," Kerry said. "To maybe even give power to moderate Islam to be able to stand up against this radical misinterpretation of a legitimate religion."

    Kerry was asked what gives Obama that credibility.

    "Because he's African-American. Because he's a black man. Who has come from a place of oppression and repression through the years in our own country."
    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/kerry-obama-cou.html

    Parent

    Hawaii, where Obama came from (none / 0) (#195)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:57:30 PM EST
    is a place of oppression?  Always looked multicultural and lovely to me.  

    Who knew?  Well, scratch Honolulu, too.  Another racist he**hole and not a paradise, after all.

    Parent

    Over Confidence? (none / 0) (#143)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:20:08 PM EST
    Obama's Over Confidence?
    He said this today to Jewish community:

    And let me make one last point about the comparison to McGovern and Dukakis, both excellent men, but I'm a pretty darn good politician.

    Went further and said:

    "I can give a pretty good speech, and I can connect and inspire the American people in ways that have become apparent. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't pretty good at mixing it up...."


    Parent
    That's odd (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59:03 PM EST
    isn't he running against politics as usual and now suddenly he is saying:

    but I'm a pretty darn good politician.

    Never mind it comes off a little elitist and arrogant as well to set himself above George McGovern who had a long and illstrious Senate career. I'll give him Dukakis but McGovern?

    As for if I wasn't pretty good at mixing it up.

    Yup there is that long track record of wreckage Obama now has to his credit. It's called the corpse of the Democratic Party.


    Parent

    Yeah, when you're (none / 0) (#188)
    by frankly0 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:31 PM EST
    the most overrated politician in living memory, it really must seem to you that you are pretty good at just about everything.

    Because, you see, that's what everybody's telling you, and you don't have the inherent modesty and skepticism to question it.

    Parent

    No one can mix it up like Obama (none / 0) (#200)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59:47 PM EST
    and especially with a bunch of rabbis in the room.  I wish they had challenged hom to a scripture-off.

    Parent
    There are a lot of big colleges in Pittsburgh.... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:08:16 PM EST
    ...he's probably hoping for big turnouts from Pitt, Carnegie Mellon, and Duquesne.

    Pittsburgh (none / 0) (#29)
    by CST on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:26:21 PM EST
    This city is a bit of an anomaly.  It's in Pennsylvania, so people out west consider it the "east coast".  However, it's also 30 min from West Virginia and about 45 from Ohio.  Lots of colleges, hospitals, and a fledgling tech industry.  Also a ton of blue-collar former steel workers.  I say it's a toss up, but I expect Hillary to pull out of it.  I hate to say it, but having lived there, in this case I may agree with Ed Rendell that they aren't ready to elect a black president.  That's not the reason Hillary will win, but it will play a part in the spread.

    Parent
    Spector was on c-span (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by magisterludi on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:11:17 PM EST
    a few minutes ago taking BO to task (to reporters) for "shirking his constitutional responsibilities" by delegating his judicial votes to Reid and Leahy. He was pretty steamed and said he can contacted George and Charlie to question BO about that during the debate tonite. Who knows if they'll bite.

    Makes you wonder how many other votes have been "delegated".

    A lot; Obama has one of the worst (none / 0) (#202)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:00:32 PM EST
    attendance records on voting in the Senate.

    Parent
    And What Does That Mean? (1.00 / 0) (#235)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:34:52 PM EST
    That he is lazy? Have you looked at his record? The absent votes are almost all for bills that were either passing or failing by large majority.

    Do you think that he had no idea how the votes he missed would turn out? It is never surprising, as the math is worked out in advance.

    It is an empty talking point meant to imply that Obama is a lazy man.

    Here is the record.

    Any content that you want to discuss regarding absent, yes, or no votes?  No?  I thought so.


    Parent

    Stop it. "Lazy" is your word (none / 0) (#245)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:24:48 PM EST
    which is revealing again about you, that you would jump to that conclusion.

    I never used the term, and I didn't "imply" anything.  Now, if you want to be civil and ask what my take is on this and what it means to me, I might.

    Shame on you, Squeaky.  Shame on you.

    Parent

    Wow! shocking USAToday article on Obama (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:13:06 PM EST
    Shocking that they would tell the Truth about Obama's ties to lobbyists.
    http://tinyurl.com/6fhjfo
    Amazing indeed. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:28:21 PM EST
    From the link:

    Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor said that while Obama's refusal to take money from lobbyists "isn't a perfect solution or symbol, it does reflect Obama's record of trying to change the way that Washington does business." He declined to elaborate.

    TRYING to change the way that Washington does business, while sneakily doing things exactly the same way.

    No wonder he "declined to elaborate."


    Parent

    Interesting. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by felizarte on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:46:48 PM EST
    This issue could come up in tonight's debate.  USA Today is affiliated with ABC News.

    Parent
    OMFG!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by digdugboy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:13:36 PM EST
    DKos is going crazy about George Stephanopolous being a moderator of tonight's debate. The hysteria is a riot!

    Why? (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:19:00 PM EST
    Stephanapolis turned his back on the Clintons a long time ago. They have nothing to worry about.

    Parent
    Yeah, I know (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by digdugboy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:20:11 PM EST
    It's crazy talk.

    Parent
    OMG (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:22:39 PM EST
    conspiring with Hannity to actually ask the Precious a real question.
    horrors! wheres the fainting couch?

    Parent
    I sent it to the cleaners.... (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:25:30 PM EST
    it should be back in an hour or so.

    Someone spilt hysteria goo on it from the last outrage.

    Parent

    There are two Daily Kosses (none / 0) (#69)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:03:39 PM EST
    The quiet thoughtful types - which I'm surprised by every time I find them still there.

    The Shouters who appear to want to be the loudest, most outraged posters on the blog.

    It's a strange place.

    Parent

    Tweety Graces Cover of NYT Magazine (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:18:57 PM EST
    Media Matters (Eric Boehlert) has a great piece today about the NYT Magazine cover story on Chris Matthews.

    Here's the Media Matters link: For Chris Matthews Misogyny Pays.

    How does the NYT story characterize Matthews hideous attitudes toward Hillary and women in general? Here's how: "Matthews is a sexist in the same benign way your grandfather is, but at least he tells the truth".

    Boehlert asks: "Benign sexism...Is that sort of like "benign" racism?".

    It's a great read; but depressing as hell, as Boehlert repeatedly states.

    been reading around the web today (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:28:33 PM EST
    that he plans to run for the senate.
    at least cable would be rid of him.  I assume.

    Parent
    Not so, Captain! (none / 0) (#36)
    by kmblue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:38:20 PM EST
    We would be subjected to endless Tweety campaign commercials and (the horror, the horror) perhaps committee hearings, starring Senator Tweety!

    Parent
    Whichever Democrat runs against him (none / 0) (#37)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:38:57 PM EST
    will kick his crazy behind.

    He has no idea how obnoxiously he comes across.

    Parent

    he's a democrat believe it or not (n/t) (none / 0) (#39)
    by DandyTIger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:44:41 PM EST


    Parent
    Perhaps madamab (none / 0) (#49)
    by kmblue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:47:36 PM EST
    was talking about the primary.
    It would be fascinating to see Matthews subjected to the same kind of abuse from the cable guys that Chris dishes out daily.
    I suppose that's too much to hope for, though.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#59)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:56:35 PM EST
    I know he worked for Tip O'Neill and all that, but I don't believe he'll run as a Democrat. He may go "Independent" to pretend he's not a Republican, but it will be for show only.

    Did you know he used to be a William F. Buckley conservative?

    But if he does run as a D, I am pretty sure he will be destroyed in the primary. :-)

    Parent

    Arlen Specter (none / 0) (#81)
    by cmugirl on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:20:37 PM EST
    said he's running again.  If Tweety is his opponent, I think I will send some money to old Arlen!

    Parent
    his brother is a republican (none / 0) (#82)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:21:05 PM EST
    elected pol

    Parent
    Tweety would set a record (none / 0) (#204)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:03:17 PM EST
    for how fast he would have a Senate page problem, based on his behavior toward grown women on tv.

    Mothers, don't let your daughters be Senate pages if Tweety is elected.  We have some video for you. . . .

    Parent

    Absolutely (none / 0) (#86)
    by CST on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:24:14 PM EST
    I am an Obama supporter but I have to say Chris Matthews is a disgrace and watching him makes me cringe.  He is offensive, disgusting, and totally out of touch with anything resembling reality.  I hope he gets killed in the Primary (figuratively) since I would never condone voting republican.

    Parent
    He really takes offensive to a new level (none / 0) (#92)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:28:05 PM EST
    I would sit there just dumbfounded with the crap coming out of his mouth. Do NOT miss watching him AT ALL.

    Cable free for 3 weeks now! {except for sports and food shows!}

    Parent

    its really sort of liberating (none / 0) (#105)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:42:55 PM EST
    isnt it?


    Parent
    The New Obama ad (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Chimster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:46:42 PM EST
    Perhaps it's just me, but something seems very strange with Obama's new ad that showcases Hillary bringing up Bittergate and getting booed for it.

    The first time i saw the Hillary-being-booed incident on video, I honestly thought the audience was booing Obama's recent comments she was referencing-not her digs at him.

    So when the ad came out, I watched to see which snippet they'd use. When I listened to the "booing" part, the audience seemed truly negative and angry torwards her. But I didn't remember hearing it like that when I first saw her speech.

    So I went back and compared the two videos. The campaign had obviously raised or manipulated the volume of the dissenters. Normally, fiddling with volume isn't a big deal. But when the actual booing is the main purpose for being included in a campaign ad, you have to question how deceptive is messing with volume or manipulation to make your point.

    Yes! (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by Athena on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:54:57 PM EST
    I noticed that also - the audio was manipulated to raise the volume of the dissenters.

    This is one for Dan Abrams or Factcheck to investigate.

    Parent

    Well if you like Hillary even one teeny bit.... (none / 0) (#140)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:19:11 PM EST
    ...having the booing so loud really rubs you the right way and it makes his supporters seem rude.

    Parent
    ... oops meant rubs you the wrong way.... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:20:10 PM EST
    ...of course if you are a committed Obama supporter it rubs you the right way.

    Parent
    either they raised the levels (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:03:53 PM EST
    or got hold of another audio feed.

    Either way I think it will be pretty effective at painting Hillary as playing petty politics instead of focussing on the issues. It makes her "bitter" ads look negative and perhaps even a bit misleading.

    I have heard that in most of PA Hillary is only running the "bitter' ad. Big mistake not to runs some issues ads as well. Negative ads can be effective, but you need offer something other than anger.

    My opinion of course.

    Parent

    I think raising (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by kmblue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:21:51 PM EST
    the audio levels is dishonest
    and not worthy of Obama, the chosen one.
    If that is, in fact, the case.

    But hey, what do I know?  
    I'm just a bitter little person.

    (A prize to anyone who picks up on
    the TV show reference here.  I'll check back. :)  )

    Parent

    At last! (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by nellre on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:14:50 PM EST
    I've been posting here trying to get somebody to back me up on my perceptions.
    It's more than just altering the volume, they moved it. The only groaning I could hear (don't hear that well, but I turned up my speakers) was when she mentioned Obama's earlier attacks on her.


    Parent
    Yeah well always come here if you want to... (none / 0) (#149)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:21:48 PM EST
    ...get away from the sound of crickets.

    Parent
    There's more of us than shows. (none / 0) (#164)
    by felizarte on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:33:19 PM EST
    Let's just surprise them.  I still remember your touching post in another thread.  Come, visit often.

    Parent
    Definitely amped the audio (none / 0) (#206)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:04:59 PM EST
    said I here, first thing I heard it yesterday.  Glad to know I wasn't hearing things.  

    Not yet, anyway.  

    Parent

    Worth Reading (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by badger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:47:08 PM EST
    Goodbye to All That (#2) by Robin Morgan.

    I would like to add (none / 0) (#76)
    by CST on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:12:19 PM EST
    Goodbye to treating everyone who didn't vote for candidate "X" as a non-thinking, kool-aid drinking, Oprah-worshiping, woman-hating hack.

    Hello to allowing people personal choice without calling them sexist, racist, naive, out-of-touch, etc...

    "As for the "woman thing"?

    Me, I'm voting for Hillary not because she's a woman--but because I am."

    And I'm voting for Obama because I like his policy better, and I think he has better ideas about how to lead the country.  Not because my boyfriend told me to, or because feminism is "icky".

    Parent

    clapping (none / 0) (#108)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:47:45 PM EST
    as I type this.

    There are two good dems duking it out. They both wear white hats.

    Parent

    Meet Obama's Other Mentor: Bill Ayers (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Exeter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:22:40 PM EST
    This is a guy that, as a leader of the Weatherman bombed the U.S. Capitol and other federal buildings then afterward said "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."  He also said "Kill all the rich people." and the "Revolution starts at home. Kill your parents."  

    This is a guy that Alexelrod has described as a friend of Obama, that Obama has repeatedly gone to his home for fundraisers, who Obama has repeatedly done joint public appearences with, and who Obama served alongside on a nonprofit board.

    It would be one thing if Ayers was repentant and was now, like a reformed former gang member preaching a new way of life, or in his case preaching against terrorism, but just the opposite. He recently said, "Terrorists destroy randomly, while our actions bore... the precise stamp of a cut diamond. Terrorists intimidate, while we aimed only to educate."

    Reason number 1,729 of why Obama is unelectable in the fall.  Can you imagine the GOP ad splicing together Wright and Ayers?

     

    Hannity? (none / 0) (#98)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:35:00 PM EST
    Is that you?  You forgot to mention it was on Sept. 11 2001 that Ayers said "he wished he had done more".  

    Parent
    What's your point? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Exeter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:00:35 PM EST
    That ignoring vulnerabities in the primary will make them go away in the general, especially when the GOP opponent is running on national secutity?

    Parent
    McCain's national security position (none / 0) (#119)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:03:27 PM EST
    can be tied to Bush's which is not a GE winner.


    Parent
    That sounds alot like 2004 (none / 0) (#126)
    by Exeter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:07:06 PM EST
    and that was running AGAINST Bush. McCain will be more difficult and, let's face it, 9/11 will still be a strong force in the election.  Not as strong as 2004, but its still in the back of peoples' minds.

    Parent
    And did Obama actually toast Auchi? (none / 0) (#236)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:36:34 PM EST
    So it is said at Taylor Marsh -- Obama can't recall even being at the Rezko party for the convicted Auchi, but others recall Obama actually giving toasts to him.  That is just too weird.

    Parent
    But everybody else at the party is a crook... (none / 0) (#241)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:45:18 PM EST
    ...so how can you believe them? </snark>

    Parent
    Surprise: Stewart agrees with BO's take on PA (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:25:44 PM EST
    Stewart was more shrill than funny last night. He was so obviously bent out of shape by Obama's bad press over 'bitter-gate'.

    Stewart went one further than Obama to say: "Those people do not turn to guns and god and mistrust of foreigners because of a downturn in the economy: those are the very foundations those towns are built on!".

    Stewart followed up with a riff about a guy and his best friend working in a factory and desperately wanting to get out of there but then: "his friend falls into a vat of molten steel. That's Western PA". There was a hearty round of warm applause for that one. I guess, industrial accidents seldom fail to amuse a Daily Show audience.

    Somebody upstream said Stewart didn't have to use any "tricks" to make Clinton look bad when she was drinking with the guys in the PA bar. Well, the footage was repeatedly looped, so it looked like she was a chug-a-lug booze-hound. Looping is the oldest "trick" in the book - it's too tired to ever be funny (at least to me).

    A good time was not had by all who were watching Stewart last night.

    I'm not surprised (none / 0) (#101)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:39:01 PM EST
    I haven't been watching TDS lately, but a couple of months ago, Stewart was quite nasty to Hillary, mocking her for her "win" in Florida.  I thought it was a byproduct of the writers' strike; he was starved for material and he knew he could get a big cheer from the audience every time he bashed Hillary or mentioned Obama's name.  

    I think Colbert is funnier anyway.

    Parent

    Calm down (1.00 / 1) (#103)
    by CST on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:42:34 PM EST
    He mocks Obama too.  He is a comedian, he makes fun of everyone.  When he had Hillary on the show he was nothing but respectful.  Of course he goes overboard for a laugh now and then, but the man isn't working for cnn, it's called comedy central.

    Parent
    Gee thanks (none / 0) (#109)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:49:01 PM EST
    for explaining the obvious.

    Parent
    He goes on CNN (none / 0) (#240)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:44:21 PM EST
    And tells people they are hurting America, and he won't be their monkey and say something funny.

    Turns out every time someone criticizes him, he has nothing to say about anything, and he's just being someone's monkey and saying something funny.

    So we shouldn't criticize him.

    It's a typical passive aggressive A-list blogging mentality.  You know why bloggers will never be held accountable for what they say.  Well duh!

    They're JUST bloggers.  What?  You expected insight from a blog?


    Parent

    I thought so too (none / 0) (#123)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:05:55 PM EST
    but I am a tad oversensitive these days.  I did notice he did not get many laughs on his long bit about the shot and a beer.

    Parent
    A to D is spamming (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:29:01 PM EST
    but it's all TalkLeft's fault!

    :-)

    I'm struck (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:31:37 PM EST
    by this line:

    the States' legitimate interest in providing for a quick, certain death

    That can only be said of very few countries around the world: the Islamic world, China, Cuba, some of sub-Saharan Africa, Belarus, Taiwan, Singapore and the United States. Apart from the US, only the Bahamas, Guatemala, El Salvador and Cuba have a death penalty in this hemisphere.

    In the rest of the world, the States' legitimate interest in providing for a long and healthy life.

    For the United States to rank #37 in terms of overall health metrics (though we are first in overall health costs and administrative health costs) and for the United States to rank #3 in executions only behind China and the DR of the Congo is something that rakes my conscience.

    Yes, it is shameful. I don't understand (none / 0) (#130)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:10:51 PM EST
    why it isn't a bigger issue to Americans.

    Parent
    Superdelegate update (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by magster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:35:11 PM EST
    Obama gets three today.

    Clinton gets two tomorrow.

    Clinton will have a 25 superdelegate lead this time tomorrow.

    Not a surprise to me! (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:39:24 PM EST
    as per Ben Smith Popular vote popular

    While there's some doubt as to the value of the popular vote as a reliable metric in the Democratic primary,  the new ABC News/Washington Post poll shows the electorate  -- as of now -- thinks otherwise:

    Those superdelegates are free to back any candidate, and many of them remain uncommitted. When asked how superdelegates should decide which candidate to support, nearly half of Democrats said they should follow the overall popular vote, while just one in eight said the number of delegates won in primaries and caucuses should be the deciding factor. Nearly four in 10 said superdelegates should choose the candidate they think is the best.

    So just 1 in 10 says what Obama surrogates have been saying!~

    Obama does take Lobbyist Money (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by stefystef on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:01:42 PM EST
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-04-15-obama_N.htm

    The mask is cracking...

    But But (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Josmt on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:30:00 PM EST
    He said he doesn't take money... How can this be...

    btw, you won't see this in the MSM, but if it was Hillary, all hell would let loose.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#165)
    by CST on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:35:31 PM EST
    I read about that on MSN.  Also, Lawyers employed by Lobbyists aren't lobbyists.  Neither are former Lobbyists.

    I agree he isn't perfect, but he didn't lie about that either.

    Parent

    And lobbyist's wives aren't lobbyists....... (none / 0) (#172)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:44:06 PM EST


    Parent
    Political Psychology (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:09:11 PM EST
    Interesting take on the last 4 months.  

    Warning: Obama supporters will blow a gasket

    (as his theory predicts, by the way)

    Link

    Not much there (1.00 / 1) (#156)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:28:10 PM EST
    just a heavily pro Clinton supporter, repeating Hillary campaign talking points about electability, sprinkled with passive agressive shots at Obama supporters. Very longwinded, very partisan.

    Gasket not blown.

    Parent

    Nice try (none / 0) (#171)
    by lambert on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:43:44 PM EST
    but no cigar (gentleman)....

    Parent
    that is what I read (none / 0) (#209)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:10:16 PM EST
    and read and read and read. lots of words, fewpoints, all opinion, all partisan.

    Parent
    Just what I have been thinking. (none / 0) (#184)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:48:38 PM EST
    We permissive Moms of the 80' and on have created self-esteem monsters who must have their way.

    Parent
    Tavis Smiley, anyone following this? (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:21:18 PM EST
    Tavis Smiley Seeks Relief from Crazed Obamites
    thanks (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:27:45 PM EST
    I hadn't seen this, but I have read about it on Sugar's blog.  It must be tough to be an AA who doesn't support Obama.

    Parent
    Tavis The New Dixie Chicks? (5.00 / 2) (#237)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:36:56 PM EST
    From the article:

    Poor Tavis, who had labored so long and hard to become a Black media darling, suddenly found himself condemned as "a hater, sellout and traitor," he told inquiring bloggers. "They are harassing my momma, harassing my brother. It's getting to be crazy."

    Eight years of people being labeled a traitor and worse if they dared to question W is enough. Don't want to repeat that pattern even if the president has a D after his name.

    Parent

    The phenomena IS familiar. (none / 0) (#242)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:46:36 PM EST
    Too bad we didn't call Bush and his crew a bunch of kool-aid drinking, war mongering cultists way back when.  Neocon sounds too respectable.

    Parent
    Never seen a photo before. (none / 0) (#167)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:37:51 PM EST
    Tavis is a handsome gentleman!  I like his show.  It went from weekdays to Fridays only here.  I don't like the show that replaced it - it's too conservative for me.

    Thanks for the link.

    Parent

    FYI (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:31:57 PM EST
    WPVI.com , Philadelphia's ABC affiliate, will be webcasting the focus group overlay during the debate tonight.

    I think I might watch that.

    San Quentin, a prison in one of the most (none / 0) (#3)
    by Prabhata on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:53:41 PM EST
    beautiful spots in the Bay Area.  It's a sad place.

    I already (none / 0) (#4)
    by Molly Pitcher on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:54:01 PM EST
    commented on vets/ euthanasia--not an easy option.  Furthermore, having been neighbors with a retired San Quentin guard, I can confidently say I want to get no closer.

    But my real subject is a thank you--this site works much better now!  I can go back and forth between subjects with ease.

    for those other Obama supporters here (none / 0) (#5)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:56:15 PM EST
    I saw a diary and did the math myself, and if Obama gets ONLY 45% of the remaining delegates (this includes PA) then he only needs 40% of the remaining supes to hit the number.

    and when you factor in that he will get more then 45% of the delegates in places like NC and Oregon, then Obama would need less then 40% of the remaining supes to hit 2024  

    so that made me smile.

    Cling-gate makes Republicans smile (none / 0) (#23)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:21:56 PM EST


    Parent
    In the roughly the last two months (none / 0) (#34)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:34:15 PM EST
    Obama has been scooping up supers by roughly a 6 to 1 ratio compared to Clinton.

    Obama gained 66 supers since Feb 17, compared to 11 for Clinton. The supers are not going her way so far. The opposite in fact.

    Parent

    another super fact of interest is that (none / 0) (#38)
    by cy street on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:43:05 PM EST
    clinton supporters want the supers to wait until puerto rico to declare.  the problem with this approach lies in the fact that ninety clinton supers declared before a single vote was cast in iowa.

    this negates any reason to wait.

    those that are mum would like to be left out of the decision all together, think al gore.  the day is approaching to decide and it is a tough call for some who have deep ties to the clinton machine.  

    the question is fast becoming, who can raise the money?  i think we know the answer.

    Parent

    damm pesky math (none / 0) (#45)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:46:43 PM EST
    it's so biased against Hillary.

    Parent
    Smile away (none / 0) (#100)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:38:55 PM EST
    Because the truth is no matter how much Obama supporters do and display this "fact math" they are missing it:

    None of it matters. 40/60 one way, 60/40 the other, its all bogus.

    SDs will decide. They are NOT deciding now. No one is stopping them. Read the handwriting on the wall.

    Here the only math you need: Sen Obamas results in PA/IN. It may end the race for Sen Clinton if he does well in certain areas, and it may be the beginning of the end if he does not.

    I am 40-60% sure of that.

    Parent

    they are deciding as we type (none / 0) (#120)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:05:00 PM EST
    three more went to obama today.

    Parent
    Ok read again (none / 0) (#131)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:11:27 PM EST
    I am guessing you know what is being said, but are ignoring it to keep harping on the same false point.

    This won't happen by 2 and 3. Hillary will get a few more too soon. It won't matter.

    Geesh.

    Parent

    You do realize (none / 0) (#183)
    by cmugirl on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:48:25 PM EST
    That it was reported a few weeks ago that the entire NC delegation was going to endorse him?  This is just the news so it trickles out a few at a time and look like bunches of new ones.

    Parent
    Don't bother (none / 0) (#189)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:39 PM EST
    I think facts are not the point.

    Parent
    Bruce Springsteen Endorses Obama (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:59:57 PM EST
    Just saw it in the news on aol.

    Puerto Rican salsa legend Willie Colon (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by felizarte on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:04:25 PM EST
    canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jX3KE19--QsWXQvChAOkPf7fSQig

    endorses Hillary Clinton

    SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico -- Salsa icon Willie Colon would like to see Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton in the White House next year.
    Colon, a Bronx-born Puerto Rican salsa trombonist and bandleader, said in a statement that Clinton is more qualified than any other candidate to represent residents of Puerto Rico.
    "Hillary has been on the side of our families for over 35 years," says Colon, a Latin Grammy Awards winner for lifetime achievement.
    Puerto Rico is holding a Democratic primary on June 1 in the race between Clinton and Senator Barack Obama - even though islanders, who are U.S. citizens, cannot vote in the general presidential election.



    Parent
    I am not a BS fan so I don't know (none / 0) (#8)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:01:43 PM EST
    why is he called The Boss?

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#12)
    by LoisInCo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:08:44 PM EST
    it came from when he was younger (not famous yet) he collected the money for gigs and divied it up for his band.

    Parent
    I believe it was a nickgame given to him... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:09:43 PM EST
    ..by his band.

    Parent
    I hope today in debate they get a chance can ask (none / 0) (#9)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:05:59 PM EST
    What Obama meant when he said..

    Who does she think she is? Annie Oakley? Shame on Hillary.. She knows better..

    and then give Hillary a chance to respond [not the other way round]

    her pandering. thats what he meant. (none / 0) (#18)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:14:49 PM EST
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsmFDYyK4U

    yes she can.  

    Parent

    I don't think ABC will have the guts to show that (none / 0) (#35)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:34:48 PM EST
    (Pandering or not..) clip of his saying.. "shame on Hillary.." because of how bad it would look!! They might show some other clip.. but not this one.

    Remember how MSNBC showed her clip saying "shame on you"

    Parent

    Um... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:07:31 PM EST
    So how many different threads are you going to be posting this too?

    And doesn't that kinda qualify as spamming the threads?

    (Aside...the Annie Oakley comment was in reference to something other than to what you keep referring to)

    Parent

    OT (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:07:22 PM EST
    As this is a legal issue blog I was wondering if Carmelo's DUI and the special treatment he received is worth commenting on in a separate entry?

    What favorable treatment? (none / 0) (#21)
    by digdugboy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:19:40 PM EST
    I don't see anything suggesting that he was treated any differently from any other DUI suspect.

    Parent
    His car was inpounded (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:25:04 PM EST
    To the precinct parking lot.

    And a staff sargeant drove him home instead of making him spend the rest of the night in the drunk tank.


    Parent

    No... (none / 0) (#175)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:44:48 PM EST
    ...he didn't get a ride home.  He got a ride to a posh hotel downtown where his wife was staying.  Why she was staying there and not at that nice, big McMansion of theirs has not been addressed.  

    I doubt the cops would give someone like me a ride anywhere other than to booking at the Denver County jail.

    Parent

    Again (none / 0) (#16)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:13:28 PM EST
    Clyde Thomas, who sports a goatee in the ad and says, "the good people of Pennsylvania deserve a lot better than what Barack Obama said," is actually registered in New Jersey. He voted there for Clinton Feb. 5.

    solid.

    OMG!!!! (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:31:47 PM EST
    link

    That's not really a kitten.

    It's an adolescent cat.


    Parent

    If that is true it that is so sad. (none / 0) (#40)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:45:21 PM EST
    Some one in Hillary's campaign screwed up.

    Parent
    So, um, no one is allowed to have an (none / 0) (#42)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:46:40 PM EST
    opinion if they've already voted and don't live in PA?

    Parent
    Agree to Disagree (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by kmblue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:53:11 PM EST
    already posted this in another thread.
    Person s/he refers to recently moved to PA.
    But I'm sure A to D will post it in every thread
    today.  
    Based on past experience of A to D.

    Parent
    My thoughts exactly. (none / 0) (#51)
    by felizarte on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:52:00 PM EST
    the sink they throw at Hillary comes in all shapes and sizes.  

    Parent
    a PA spot (none / 0) (#54)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:53:41 PM EST
    with a man on the street talking like he from PA, when in fact he is a Hillary voter from another state. It not a big deal but it is a stupid enough move that it might get some play in the news. If it make the Hillary is a liar meme gets a wee bit stronger.

    Heck, next time Hillary should just put on a fake moustache and pretend she is a concerned PA citizen alarmed by Obama's state.

    Parent

    If so it makes (none / 0) (#55)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:54:26 PM EST
    If so it makes

    Parent
    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#78)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:14:23 PM EST
    So...didn't this person you're referencing actually recently move to PA?

    And if so, is there some specific time limit involved in being a PA resident that is required before you appear in a campaign advertisement?

    Parent

    oh yes - libfighter this is BIG!! (none / 0) (#85)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:23:05 PM EST
    So much bigger than Obama going around the country claiming the Kennedys brought his father to America.
    Such a sweet story - such a sweet lie.
    But hey - whatever it takes to obtain the Kennedy endorsement.
    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/30/13655/6958


    Parent
    actaully I said it was not big deal (none / 0) (#129)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:10:40 PM EST
    but that if it got picked up it added a wee bit more weight to the liar meme. Perhaps read before you rant.

    Parent
    The problem (none / 0) (#58)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:55:56 PM EST
    would be Hillary's growing credablity gap.  Anything like this gets amplified.

    Parent
    i do not buy the hillary credibility (none / 0) (#68)
    by cy street on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:03:15 PM EST
    issue.  she is a stalwart of the democratic party and while i now support obama, i believe in her political acumen and character.

    the credibility gap is on account of her campaign tactics and surrogates.  when she was about to shake up the campaign going into new hampshire, i wish she would have followed through.

    she made the turn around there on her own, in spite of her staff.  remember?  it seems that lesson was overlooked with the surprise victory.  had she cleaned house then, i believe she would be the nominee.

    Parent

    I was talking about (none / 0) (#77)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:12:51 PM EST
    this.  

    Parent
    Polls show (none / 0) (#80)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:18:44 PM EST
    Hillary is considered far less trustworthing than either Obama and McCain.

    Gallup Poll - March 14-16

    Parent

    thanks to penn (none / 0) (#88)
    by cy street on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:24:43 PM EST
    and his ilk who applied twenty century campaigning in the twenty first century.

    Parent
    I bet (none / 0) (#106)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:43:04 PM EST
    atleast 10% of her negatives could be attributed to Mark Penn's handiwork.

    I have very little doubt Clinton would have won this general if she did not have Penn running her campaign. Another manager would not have ignored the caucus states for so long.

    It blows my mind that Penn still has a job on her campaign. Very poor judgement on her part.

    Parent

    yes - that data confirms (none / 0) (#90)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:27:39 PM EST
    the media and pro-Obama blogs have concealed damaging info about Obama.
    But the GOP won't.
    Yet another reason to support Hillary whose every minute action has been scrutinized.

    Parent
    Sorry for the sarcasm (none / 0) (#104)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:42:54 PM EST
    but there's this thing called 'Fox News' and they have been reporting every piece of damaging info that they have found.

    There are tons of Clinton scandals you probably aren't even aware of as well.

    Parent

    No, I think Ive heard them all. (none / 0) (#170)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:42:25 PM EST
    Met my old neighbor a couple weeks back.  He's gone totally CT - 9/11 and naturally the Clinton CTs as well.  If the Clintons did half of what he claimed, Ken Starr is more incompetent than GWB.

    Parent
    Your point? (none / 0) (#177)
    by lambert on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:46:29 PM EST
    Obama girl didn't vote at all.

    Or do you have a problem with the "Creative Class"-style goatee?

    Parent

    Obama talks about basketball and calls (none / 0) (#41)
    by Esme on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:46:27 PM EST
    "people who keep on shooting, even though they have no jump shot," delusional. Listen to the rest of what he says, it sounds like a thinly veiled attack on Hillary.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=3CmvDQK3k2w

    Start watching at exactly five minutes.

    "Nobody knows more about delusions than (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:59:36 PM EST
    I do" would be a good line for Obama.

    Parent
    I can't. I'll take your word for it. (none / 0) (#50)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:49:29 PM EST
    But by saying this:

    people who keep on shooting, even though they have no jump shot

    ...doesn't he realized that he's offended practically everybody who plays basketball these days, including half the guys in the NBA?

    Parent

    It's ironic considering (none / 0) (#56)
    by Esme on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:54:35 PM EST
    his message is one of "hope". I guess you can only have hope if you're already doing well, or if Barack will save you. Otherwise you're "delusional".

    Parent
    or maybe he is suggesting basketball (none / 0) (#60)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:57:18 PM EST
    is a team sport, and you should pass the ball to the team member best positioned for the shot.

    Parent
    And nobody has ever done more to position... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:59:46 PM EST
    ...himself for the shot than Barack Obama! Yeah, I get it.

    Parent
    From a "liar" (none / 0) (#65)
    by kmblue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:01:47 PM EST
    to "delusional" to a "team member"?

    Looks like Hillary is moving up in your eyes, libfighter.  ;)

    Parent

    I actually really like Hillary (4.50 / 4) (#94)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:29:59 PM EST
    She is a hardworker, and a great all around dem. I don't like some of people around her, her vote on Iraq, and a few other issues, but none of these are deal breakers. Nobody is perfect, and if anything she is closer to perfect than most.

    I just believe that Obama is a better canidate. I like to his ground up approach. I am impressed by his ability to communicate ideas, and build enthusism for liberal causes.

    I will support either canidate (hopefully both) in the next GE.

    Parent

    Obama having no campaign (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59:32 PM EST
    Other than to destroy the Clinton Legacy is a deal breaker for me.


    Parent
    I think you see (none / 0) (#211)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:10:58 PM EST
    what you want.

    Parent
    The only other facet of his campaign (none / 0) (#216)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:13:37 PM EST
    That exists is the hope and unity thing.

    Remember.  This isn't about policies.

    This is about politics.


    Parent

    13 executions (none / 0) (#52)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:52:06 PM EST
    since 1976.  No wonder it's not a deterence.  More deaths are caused on California's death row by natural causes.  

    Healing (none / 0) (#61)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:59:12 PM EST
    Can people please refrain from saying at any point that we have to "heal" or lets start the "healing" or anything with that idea.  I got scabs four deep, no more room.  

    These aren't injuries (none / 0) (#79)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:15:22 PM EST
    they are lessons in my life long education process.

    I don't need any "healing".  But by the time we get to November, I think I should have a couple semesters in PoliSci/Marketing/Communications/Sociology under my belt.  If I was more motivated then I could add Statistics.

    Parent

    Obama supporters look for any reason (none / 0) (#64)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:00:06 PM EST
    to portray Hillary aligned with McCain in coordinated criticisms on Obama. Seems  downright paranoid to me.

    from your July 2006 NYT article -
    >>>>Politics being what it is, there is more friction than fusion. As the 2008 presidential campaign begins to take shape, with Mr. McCain and Mrs. Clinton at the top of the polls for their parties' nominations, they are increasingly underscoring their differences on issues like the war in Iraq and port security. Advisers to Mr. McCain have put a stop to his inviting Mrs. Clinton on trips.

    Yeah and Mcain taking potshots at Hillary.... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:03:59 PM EST
    ..at Tweety's college tour was just a clever diversionary tactic to their real unity agenda of bringing down Obama.

    Parent
    Well...it is an open thread... (none / 0) (#91)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:27:53 PM EST
    but you've posted the same link/comment in other threads that weren't open threads.

    So I figured I'd ask.

    Screw Southern Middle Class Whites (none / 0) (#97)
    by Dave B on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:32:32 PM EST

    Has anyone seen this yet? They are celebrating at Daily Kos and Mydd.

    Huff Post

    I'm really starting to feel like I'm not a Democrat after-all. Reading Dkos and Mydd is moving me toward McCain. I can't believe I said it, but it's how I'm feeling.
    This story probably has no legs (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:49:32 PM EST
    but we'll see.

    Parent
    No legs? I'm sure Kos and Huffpo dragged it out (none / 0) (#155)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:28:05 PM EST
    ...today to prep the media questioners for the debate. I'm sure it will be asked. If its about Hillary you can be sure it will be trotted out and run on the cable channels on a continuous loop.

    Parent
    '94/95? (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:05:12 PM EST
    Well, okay.  Let's see what Obama and the Rev Wright were saying way back them.  If we are going to dredge up ancient history, let's be fair and balanced about it.

    Parent
    I'm sure they're working on it. (none / 0) (#125)
    by sweetthings on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:06:54 PM EST
    Anything to keep the drama going.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#127)
    by CST on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:07:26 PM EST
    Let's see what OBAMA was saying.  Last I checked Rev Wright isn't running for president.

    Parent
    20 years of Best Buds and spiritual advisor (none / 0) (#135)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:14:56 PM EST
    He's been with Wright longer than he's been married.

    Heck, at this rate - since we are talking about what the wife of a Pres'l candidate says - let's see if Michelle made any intemperate remarks.  Sure she wasn't running for office at the time, but neither was Hillary.

    It's not flattering, but it's hardly the official statement of a campaigning candidate.

    Parent

    They already have (none / 0) (#146)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:20:39 PM EST
    it's Cliton's turn to be vetted now.

    Parent
    My dear is that your misogyny showing or.... (3.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:29:30 PM EST
    ...are you just a lousy speller?

    Parent
    Ugh. (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by sweetthings on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:05:23 PM EST
    It's such BS. Hopefully the press will get bored with it faster than they did with Bitter-gate. (which was also BS)

    I'm not exactly optimistic about that happening, though.

    Parent

    We wouldn't want a Dem to (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:13:05 PM EST
    blow-off a bunch of Southern white racists who have voted Republican since LBJ and civil rights. The horror!

    Parent
    right (none / 0) (#141)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:19:21 PM EST
    perhaps Clinton should repeat that "screw them" statement tonight?

    Parent
    Or she could point (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by LoisInCo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:23:00 PM EST
    out that her years since then have changed her mind. Her EXPERIENCE has shown her the light. Dunno if it would work of course, but that is what I would do.

    Parent
    especially now that (none / 0) (#163)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32:02 PM EST
    she needs their votes.

    Not sure that will play with everyone.

    Parent

    You really see no difference between a (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:35:50 PM EST
    hearsay report from 14 years ago and what Obama said in public 10 days ago???
    That's just so sad.

    Parent
    Of course there is a difference (none / 0) (#176)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:45:07 PM EST
    but it will still matter to some. The problem is this plays to Hillary's weakness, trustworthiness.

    It also doesn't help that Hillary is running heavily on her past white house experience, which now includes advising Bill to "screw working class whites".

    Look I agree it is not some campaign ender. Same goes with "bitter", which from the polls I have seen, has done little to no damage. But it is a bruise that she didn't need that brought on by herself for pushing "bitter'. In the end it may hurt her more than him, because it plays into the liar meme.

    Parent

    It will be a fine distraction (none / 0) (#193)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:53:38 PM EST
    For the Pro-Obama media.

    Duh!

    Parent

    The story may be true ... (none / 0) (#203)
    by Inky on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:00:32 PM EST
    but it's also a very convenient anecdote to deliver right now, with Barber's book scheduled to be released next month. Actually, it would be better if the book were released sooner, because the Clinton-bashing feeding frenzy may have played itself out before then. Oh well. Tough luck for him if it does.

    Parent
    Oh, the sting of your slap in the face. (none / 0) (#150)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:22:13 PM EST
    I can't believe it.

    Parent
    Yeah I hope she does.... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32:01 PM EST
    ...and I know exactly who the "them" should be.

    Parent
    No, we should reach out to them (none / 0) (#142)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:19:34 PM EST
    by talking about Reagan and "wrenching moral decisions" and making sure that Michelle won't be a Hillary II in his White House, she'll be in a safely traditional female role taking care of the kids.

    Has Obama praised ANY strong female leaders or just men?  

    Parent

    yes (none / 0) (#151)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:22:38 PM EST
    he even help some campaign.


    Parent
    The statement itself (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:27:22 PM EST
    Is an expression of frustration one could have with the voters.

    Obama's statement still remains.  He believes (he has not admitted to being wrong on point) people cling/gravitate/whatever to religion and guns because they lack prosperity in life.

    He simply has not been able to imagine a well off person still being interested in God, Guns, and other Small Town American Values.

    That is Obama's problem that will not go away just cause Clinton spoke her mind after Dems lost an election in 1994.

    Parent

    I agree. (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by sweetthings on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:29:49 PM EST
    This doesn't eliminate Obama's problems. But it certainly has the potential to raise new ones for Clinton.

    The mostly likely result is a weaker Democratic nominee in November, regardless of who that nominee is.

    Parent

    Indeed that is one of Obama's (none / 0) (#174)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:44:39 PM EST
    Electability arguments, no one's been hanging on every word he says for the last 30 years.  Especially not even everything he's said in private.  So far only the things he's said publically..

    But that doesn't convince me, in any case.

    Obama was saying something stupid.  Making a statement about a sociological situation that was simply wrong.  Not just elitist.  Ignorant.

    Clinton was expressing frustration.  Now that I think about it, half the things I've ever read on DailyKos are the same.  Why pander to people who will never vote for you anyway?

    Screw 'em.  At least that's what I think the DNC and Obama is saying to Florida anyway.

    But then Florida is never going to vote for Obama in the GE, so it's OK.

    Parent

    I like Bill Clinton's Follow-up (none / 0) (#215)
    by Dave B on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:11:51 PM EST

    This is how Bill responded to her comments:

    I know how you feel. I understand Hillary's sense of outrage. It makes me mad too. Sure, we lost our base in the South; our boys voted for Gingrich. But let me tell you something. I know these boys. I grew up with them. Hardworking, poor, white boys, who feel left out, feel that our reforms always come at their expense. Think about it, every progressive advance our country has made since the Civil War has been on their backs. They're the ones asked to pay the price of progress. Now, we are the party of progress, but let me tell you, until we find a way to include these boys in our programs, until we stop making them pay the whole price of liberty for others, we are never going to unite our party, never really going to have change that sticks.



    Parent
    I know I can always count on (none / 0) (#185)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:48:41 PM EST
    partisan Hillary supporters to tell me what both Obama and Hillary really meant, in a fair and balance manner.

    Parent
    Obama (none / 0) (#190)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:51:22 PM EST
    Has stood by what he meant.

    He says he could have used different words, but the meaning would still be the same.


    Parent

    Why would I believe anything I read on Kos? (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by lambert on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:23 PM EST
    It's an Obama 527.

    Parent
    Hillary's comment, (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by frankly0 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:04:31 PM EST
    just assuming that it was even accurately quoted, differs from Obama's in one absolutely key respect: it shows not an ounce of condescension toward the voters she's expressing anger at. It's raw tit-for-tat. There is nothing in it that shows basic disrespect for their lives or beliefs, apart from the fact that they refused to vote for Democrats. This isn't contempt for some lower life form, this is more like anger at an equal you think has betrayed you.

    I think many working class voters might actually appreciate the raw, unprocessed, un-euphemized emotion of the comment. Very down-to-earth, I should think. She could follow them up with a shot or two of whiskey.

    Parent

    its crap and its a non-issue (none / 0) (#107)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:43:22 PM EST
    but what do you expect, I didn't see much restraint here with the bitter remark, I didn't see many people saying well he didn't mean it or lets no blow this up.

    now there is this and the MSM will jump on it and what do you expect, I support a joint ticket but I can see how obama supporters feel, 5 days non-stop HRC supporters hammered him, 5 days. now NOW finally everyone wants to go back to the issues.

    The bitter remark was a non-issue it should have been dropped by ALL democrats, HRC supporters didn't drop that, can you blame Obama supporters for not dropping this?  I think I heard its now been confirmed with 3 different sources.

    Parent

    When Geffen called the Clintons liars (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:13:37 PM EST
    Obama should have had something more to say about that other than repeating the Lincoln Bedroom right wing talking point.

    I happen to know where much of this started.

    Obama hasn't said "I was wrong".  He has said "If you're offended by what I said, I only spoke the truth, so you are wrong."

    Given that everything Clinton has said for the last 30 years is recorded somewhere, I'm surprised you people can't find something worse.

    Parent

    You people? (none / 0) (#137)
    by sweetthings on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:16:40 PM EST
    Yes, obviously the people on this site are the ones digging this sort of thing up.

    I wonder which handle Benjamin Barber posts under?

    Parent

    You people (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:18:59 PM EST
    Pushing this as a legitimate story.

    At least Clinton will say she was wrong to say that.

    And then she'll have to leave it up to the voters to figure out if something she said after Dems lost an election back in 1994 is relevant to what Obama said trying to win an election in 2008.

    Parent

    Um, Obama says he meant it. (none / 0) (#145)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:20:29 PM EST
    Shouldn't I take him at his word?


    Parent
    She chose to heavily spin Obama's comment (none / 0) (#111)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:52:14 PM EST
    and everyone here seemed to cheer that on. That makes Clinton's statement on the subject more than fair game.


    Parent
    Fox News (none / 0) (#113)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:54:34 PM EST
    has now picked it up.

    Parent
    Whoops (none / 0) (#118)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:03:13 PM EST
    guess I was wrong...

    Parent
    ouch (none / 0) (#138)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:17:51 PM EST
    and on day of the PA debate.

    Who dug up the "screw them" quote?

    Parent

    Stop digging. (none / 0) (#147)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:21:05 PM EST


    Parent
    Please (none / 0) (#173)
    by Davidson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:44:12 PM EST
    Quoting someone--in context--is not "spin."  Jesus.  His words couldn't have been clearer.  Even the high-info SF audience understood it (hence, the laughter).

    Parent
    How do we know this is true? (none / 0) (#187)
    by Davidson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:24 PM EST
    Yes, an author swore he witnessed it, but I want a tape.  Something concrete.

    Parent
    I'll take an .mp3! (none / 0) (#199)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59:43 PM EST
    Sonuvagun!  the mp3 audio compression has been official since 1991 according to wikipedia.

    Theoretically possible.

    Parent

    Get a map. The South has screwed (none / 0) (#225)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:24:04 PM EST
    the Dems for decades.

    Obama specifically dissed the Midwest, which has a lot of longtime Dem strongholds we need.

    Stoopid story.  Screw HuffPo, et al., say I.

    Parent

    HuffPo AND the South (none / 0) (#228)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:27:05 PM EST


    Parent
    Did anyone catch (none / 0) (#114)
    by LoisInCo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:00:00 PM EST
    the interviews with a few FLDS church members wanting their kids back? One woman told Meridith Viera (in response to being asked if she had ever seen children being abused) that of course not, the children love them and they love their children and what child would love their partents if they were being abused. I just found it bizarre.

    I'm not impressed. (none / 0) (#124)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:06:46 PM EST
    They've just gone through a lot of upheaval and trauma.  A few interviews under those circumstances isn't good data.

    Parent
    I feel sorry for them. They have been (none / 0) (#136)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:16:16 PM EST
    brainwashed since birth. They have no way to comprehend the situation they are in.

    Parent
    Euphemism: "love" (none / 0) (#180)
    by Davidson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:47:19 PM EST
    I've heard pedophiles talk about "loving" children.  And considering that she all but certainly was raped as a child herself, she considers not only "normal" but also "divine."

    Sick.

    I'm not a religious person, but even I prayed for these children--specifically the girls.

    Parent

    I've been following the FLDS story (none / 0) (#208)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:09:31 PM EST
    for months b/c it's been featured on CNN quite heavily.  Gary Tuchman has been reporting on it.  From time to time, CNN has a woman on who used to be FLDS and she tells the harrowing story of the night that she finally escaped.  She had 6 or 8 kids, and one of them was disabled (in a wheelchair) but somehow she managed to get them all out, except her oldest daughter (as I recall) who chose to stay with the cult.

    This woman had wanted to be a doctor when she was a young girl, but her father gave her away when she was about 16 to a 50-year-old man.

    Another thing FLDS does is kick out the young boys.  Tuchman had a story on the "lost boys".  The leaders don't want any competition for the young girls, so they just boot the teenaged guys out of the community.  

    Lastly, they're all on welfare.  They call it "bleeding the beast".  Since the men have multiple wives, only the first wife is considered legal so the second, third, fourth and fifth wives apply for welfare as single mothers.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#223)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:22:33 PM EST
    Ah, where's Reagan now?

    Hey Ronnie - we've got an entire religious sect being funded by welfare!  

    I wonder if the men work under the table or send the women out to work.  Kicking the young males out - not a surprise.  Other questions immediately come to mind, but it's all pure speculation on my part so I'll keep quiet.

    Parent

    why do all the women (none / 0) (#224)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:23:58 PM EST
    look like Phyllis Schafley?

    Parent
    Ronnie would have a fit! (none / 0) (#238)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:39:04 PM EST
    The women don't work.  They're too busy having kids!  The men work under the table mostly, construction jobs and the like.  I saw an interview with some of the "lost boys" and they said that before they were kicked out, they were forced to work at FLDS construction jobs for no pay (this would be when they were in their early teens).

    Parent
    Under the table - predictable. (none / 0) (#239)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:43:28 PM EST
    Sounds more like a pyramid scheme to me than a religion.

    Parent
    No, I think her judgment is better than that. (none / 0) (#181)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:48:12 PM EST
    ;-)

    Libfighter (none / 0) (#182)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:48:20 PM EST
    you are chattering. Please come back another day. No more comments from you today, you are trying to dominate the thread.

    Just saw this (none / 0) (#214)
    by libfighter on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:11:50 PM EST
    happy to leave if my posts are a bother.

    Parent
    late in the thread but I just noticed something (none / 0) (#219)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:16:03 PM EST
    the comments at my favorite Obama blog Americablog seem much fewer are farther between than when I used to hang out there.
    far fewer comments and they all seem to be from the same few people.
    I wonder if Hillary Hate is hurting their traffic?
    I hope so.
    Alexa agrees -- Americablog (none / 0) (#229)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:28:04 PM EST
    down a lot -- TalkLeft actually ahead of it at points.  Wow.

    Parent
    excellent (none / 0) (#234)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:32:55 PM EST


    Parent
    BREAKING!! (none / 0) (#226)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:25:05 PM EST
    I just read an ABC News transcript and Obama won the debate tonight!
    Just giving you a heads up.
    ;>

    He was brilliant!!!! (none / 0) (#231)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:28:48 PM EST
    He was forced to go on the attack by that vicious other candidate, what's her name, and he did it while uniting the audience. And his plans, they were so brilliant the republicans in house and senate changed parties!

    And red states, they are now all adopting gay marriage laws.

    He is neat! :)

    Parent

    Weds. Afternoon Open Thread: San Quentin | 234 comments (234 topical)