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Why Flip Flop At All?

Sure, the flip flop attack probably won't cost Obama the election. But why not ask yourself this, why feed the line of attack in the first place? Maybe Obama is not really hurt by the flip flopper line, but please tell me how exactly it helps?

To me, the "it probably won't hurt him" line of defense misses the point. Explain to me instead, how the flip flops HELP Obama? Because, wrap it up in pretty packaging all you want, but Obama DID flip flop on FISA capitulation. Obama did change his position on public financing (I see all the upside to this one BTW, I just think he should have done it earlier), Obama has given strange and contradictory statements on choice. Given these mistakes, it was inevitable it seems to me to see the Media take Obama's use of "refine" on Iraq and make up a story - that Obama changed his position on Iraq withdrawal too. That one was flat out false, but the others were not. Obama created the opening, for no good reason. That is the point. It may not be potent, but it should not even exist.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< It's Official: Obama to Accept Nomination at Invesco Field | Webb Out Of VP Stakes >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Perhaps Obama realizes he (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:07:05 PM EST
    will have trouble getting some Clinton supporters to vote for him.  Got to get the votes somewhere.  

    I am one of those troublesome voters. (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:12:31 PM EST
    My reasons for being reluctant to vote for Obama is not Hillary related. Had Obama chosen to lead a successful filibuster of the Bush Cover Up and Elimination of Rights (FISA) bill, I would have a very good reason to vote for him. Instead, his current course of action as highlighted by BTD's post just makes me even more reluctant.  

    [ Parent ]
    Why doesn't BO just (2.00 / 1) (#98)
    by owenaprhys on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:12:01 PM EST
    offer to be McCain's Veep? he is looking more and more each day like a DINO.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't think the choice flip flop is fair (none / 0) (#10)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:17:16 PM EST
    I don't his words changing where his stance was and is.  I think people don't have enough to write about in a 24 hour news cycles plus you have the other side willing to take those words and stretch them to their most extreme meanings, which is where you get a lot of these "controversies" from. See Hilaries assasination comment.

    The FISA thing is a flip flop.  Unfortunately FISA is too complicated for most people to understand given the time they have to concentrate on these things.   You can't really educate people in a election year, especially on the national level.

    [ Parent ]

    Excuse me but the Democratic Party had (5.00 / 6) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:41:59 PM EST
    about 2 1/2 years to educate the American public on FISA. IIRC the stories of Bush illegally spying on American citizens broke sometime in 12/05.

    The Dems are actually going against polling data on this issue. So as far as I'm concerned that excuse just doesn't wash. The Dems had plenty of time to win this argument and if that poll is correct the majority of Americans do not support this action.

    [ Parent ]

    When the FISA story broke, (none / 0) (#145)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:49:42 PM EST
    my father--a guy who pays little to no attention to party politics--stood in his living room and announced that he considered the domestic spying program a High Crime and Misdemeanor.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree with you (none / 0) (#189)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:31:01 PM EST
    They should have educated people.  They didn't (or we didn't)

    [ Parent ]
    The "experience" issue is a factor for (none / 0) (#147)
    by Grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:52:59 PM EST
    a lot of us.  That's why we didn't vote for him in the first place.  

    The more he talks, the more his inexperience reveals itself.  He's trying to slide to the Right or the Middle but he started out using the wrong wording so now his words seem more like flip flops.  He can call it refining or redefining or whatever he wants to, but they come across as being "change we didn't want."  

    Hillary was more subtle in her use of words.  Yesterday someone posted something Hillary said about the Partial Birth Abortion ban.  Hillary said she could support such a ban as long as it didn't affect the "life or health" of a woman.  "Life" is a very encompassing word which would include that "mental distress" that Obama seems to be caught on.

    Anyway, I'm still hung up on the experience thing.    

    [ Parent ]

    Swiftboats & Willie Horton weren't FIRST (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by seabos84 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:10:34 PM EST
    attacks from the lying slime, they were just attacks that the lying slime figured out how to make stick.

    Of course it is important to detail what lies are in the the latest attack from lying slime, BUT

    IF the attack is NOT successfully shot down and shot full of holes and decapitated, then the attack might work.

    Sadly, detailing the lies isn't usually enough to shoot down & shoot full of holes & decapitate the attack gaining ground ---

    for that we need message.

    Hello DC Doormat Dems!

    Hundreds of Congresscritters!

    Thousands of Staffers!

    Tens of Millions in Salaries!

    Think any of you, this summer, can break away from whining about how mean and ornery the lying slime are AND instead come up with some great coutner message to the attacks?

    I'd love to, but

    I got a job, and IF I don't do my job,

    I'll be living under the bridge in cardboard box

    (I'm one of those tens of millions of people without a trust fund ! without affluent relatives !! Maybe you read about them in college? )

    so how about you'll FIGHTING for us peeeee-ons instead of whining how a bunch of lying slime are liars!

    rmm.

    Non-responsive. (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:14:00 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I don't get it myself. (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:13:54 PM EST
    Maybe he's going for a huge win and thinks that the base will vote for him no matter what and so he can spend the next four months attracting as many conservatives as possible.

    If that is the strategy, I think it's flawed in two ways. First, ignoring or pushing away the base can backfire. We don't have to actually vote for McCain for damage to be done. A dispirited base can just sit at home. Second, I think there are people you shouldn't want in your tent because they disagree with your fundamental values. I'm happy not to sing kumbaya with people who think the government should be able to spy on its citizens. Was it Molly Ivins who said "you have to dance with them what brung ya"? I beleive Sen. Obama would do better being brought to the white house by people who believed in core democratic principles. A victory that is big but is based on votes of those who have many fundamental disagreements over core values could be disastrous in terms of implementing progressive policies.

    The problem is (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by g8grl on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:48:08 PM EST
    that Obama didn't run on core democratic principals.  So he doesn't think that people who believe in those principals brought him to the dance.  He was brought to the dance by Hopey Changey folks.  Hope and Change have no party so he's happy to pander to Republicans.

    I'll say it again (and hope that my post doesn't get deleted).  Obama isn't much of a Democrat.  Democrats don't call other lifelong Democrats racist, they don't give up on UHC and they generally think the Clinton years were good for the country.

    [ Parent ]

    Why flip-flop? (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:14:07 PM EST
    Because he thinks he's invincible?

    I sincerely believe he thinks that.

    when you live in a DNC (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:25:02 PM EST
    bubble with sycophantic Yes People who think you walk on water, it's hard NOT to believe you're invincible.

    See his very recent "when I was a United States Senator" quote for proof of how far down the rabbit hole he is.

    Man, that could be one HARD landing returning to the Senate in January.  Ouch.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama said "Senator" in PAST tense? (4.50 / 6) (#27)
    by stefystef on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:34:37 PM EST
    Get out!  I knew Obama was an arrogant, self-absorbed person, but he is already addressing himself as a  former Senator, like he was already President???

    I know many people are holding their noses and voting for Obama, but I can't.  Obama figures he has all the left and Democrats in his pocket.  They kept saying "what choice do you have"?  "Where are you going to go"?  Just fall in line because McCain  is Bush Third Term.

    Well, I will not vote for McCain, but I will say this... McCain is his own man.  I don't believe he wants to be attached to Bush the same way Gore didn't want to be "attached" to scandal-ridden Clinton during the 2000 election.

    Obama's win is not a given.  

    [ Parent ]

    yes (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:51:30 PM EST
    here you go:

    "I'm surprised at how finely calibrated every single word was measured. I wasn't saying anything I hadn't said before, that I didn't say a year ago or when I was a United States senator," said Obama, who is still a senator from Illinois.

    (from Tl's very own "Obama 'Puzzled' by Flip Flop Charges" thread)

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for the quote (none / 0) (#112)
    by stefystef on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:22:51 PM EST
    Very interesting quote from him.  I am waiting for him to refer to himself in the third person.

    Then the transformation from man to politician to immortal will be complete.  I guess it makes sense for "Church of Obama" to have his "coronation" like an old-time revival.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm still waiting (none / 0) (#128)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:39:12 PM EST
    for him to begin referring to what his Presidency will bring to the American People!  (other than Hope and Change, of course)

    [ Parent ]
    To refine (5.00 / 0) (#11)
    by eric on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:17:19 PM EST
    is to change.

    Why he used that word is beyond me.

    Think hoodwink/okey doke/bamboozle (3.60 / 5) (#14)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:21:08 PM EST
    Change has become trite and ineffective.

    [ Parent ]
    Three Card Monte (4.00 / 4) (#43)
    by Grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:42:50 PM EST
    Con-man trick.  

    [ Parent ]
    SiteViolator infernal pest tben buggin' again (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:55:40 PM EST
    Why hasn't tben been banned?

    He's only here to troll and bug, to promote his Master's uninformed and unwelcomed positions from an unhealthily obsessed views on Lady Vagina issues (yet curiously delicate and overly private about his own Sir Danglies.)

    He mass troll-rate posts unfairly and without reason.

    Why hasn't tben been banned?

    [ Parent ]

    Why flip-flop? (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Belswyn on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:19:17 PM EST
    I don't understand it either. But, I don't understand why the Dems brought the bill forward in the first place. There are pressures pushing this bill forward that I don't quite understand.

    On NPR this morning it was suggested that Obama's change was the result of advice by John Brennan, and that Obama's seeking to bolster his credentials with the intelligence community.

    This might be true, but I find it very unpalatable.

    Digby posits (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by sj on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:10:27 PM EST
    That there is no way that this was brought forward without Obama being on board.  John Brennan's reasoning is as good as any I've heard.

    [ Parent ]
    I think Obama has (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Emma on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:22:06 PM EST
    fundamentally changed his position on Iraq.  He went from drawing a clear line in the sand:  all troops out in 16 months, to adopting HRC's position: I'll confer with the JCS and the generals and come up with a plan to end the war.

    I always thought HRC's position was better, and I don't think anybody gets us out of Iraq in 16 months or 16 years.  So I never believed Obama when he said out in 16 months.  

    So, at this point I don't necessarily care what Obama's "plan to end the war" actually is, or how it's been "refined" in the past 6 months, because I don't think it can be delivered upon in the ways he's represented.

    But Obama has flip-flopped.  His position on withdrawing troops from Iraq has changed substantially in the past 6 months.

    "I Don't Know Who This Guy Is.." (5.00 / 8) (#18)
    by MsExPat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:24:42 PM EST
    That's what my dear friend--who's black, New York, Puerto Rican, strong working class roots, and a lifelong Dem--said to me over the weekend when we were talking about Obama's recent FF's.

    And it hit me: if my buddy, who's practically a walking Democratic Party demographic, can't be sure who Obama is, how can anyone else?

    That's why the Obama FF Strategy is truly bizarro. You don't need to scurry off to the right when you've got a disaster of a sitting Republican president with a 30 % approval rating, and when you've gained the large part of your support by marketing yourself as THE NEW ALTERNATIVE.

    Unless...unless...Obama's "retreat" to the right is, in fact, a return to who he actually is. And the Obama of the primaries was a politician who deliberately spoke in vagaries, knowing that many people were projecting their (unrealistic) hopes onto his blank canvas, hearing what they wanted to hear.

    I hear doubts (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:32:22 PM EST
    and grumblings about Obama more often than I do anything about his policies, where he stands on issues or his "inevitability".

    In my fairly large circle (LA, NYC, Paris and WA State), there's no sense of excitement for him and no one I know is really excited about the prospect of voting for him.  In fact, many believe Obama is the DNC's candidate, not the Dem Voters'.

    Add to that the "blank slate" aspect of his candidacy, and I suspect many will become confused about just WHO he, exactly, is and either sit out the Election altogether or vote for the Devil they know (McCain) instead of the Devil they don't.

    [ Parent ]

    There is a good article in the (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:51:54 PM EST
    San Francisco newspaper today (I linked to it in an earlier thread last night) that talks about Conservatives voting for Obama.  

    One of them mentioned that the Republican Party is such a mess, that Bush has destroyed it, that they think it would be better to elect Obama then come back with a new Republican Party in 2012.  They are unhappy because they want the "fiscal conservative/small government" Republican Party they used to have.  

    I don't know if they think Obama is a fiscal conservative.  At least one thought he might be like Clinton's third term (so why the heck didn't he vote for Hillary if Clinton was so good?).

    The article was very interesting and had some great quotes in it -- but I don't know if the  Conservatives quoted in the article are representative of all Conservatives.  

    [ Parent ]

    that's interesting (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:58:25 PM EST
    but, remember, we're talking pre-GOP noise machine against Obama.  These are the dog days of the campaign when everyone's keeping their powder dry.  When the GOP and the Media go full barrels against Obama, I suspect these "conservatives" may think twice and either a) vote for McCain, b) vote for Barr or c) sit this one out ... as many Democrats may do.

    It could be 1972 and McGovern all over again (record-breaking high turnout in the Primaries, record-breaking low turnout with a Dem loss in the General)!

    [ Parent ]

    That's actually pretty funny. (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:22:03 PM EST
    Republicans voting for Obama to have a shot at a better Republican candidate in 2012, and Democrats voting for McCain to have a better shot at a real Democrat in 2012.

    [ Parent ]
    And if he was for real in the primaries, then (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by MsExPat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:35:52 PM EST
    Obama better start being clearer about who he is, or he's going to lose. As the new guy, the unknown quantity, the winning game for him isn't a move to the center. He's got to project a strong "brand", as it were: This is ME, and when you vote for me this is what you're gonna get.

    Whoever in his camp--Axelrod?--is pushing the rightward rope-a-dope should be sent out to the same pasture as Mark Penn.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (3.25 / 4) (#134)
    by owenaprhys on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:41:48 PM EST
    NO Democrat in 2008 should HAVE to fight. the campaign slogan should just be "I'm not Republican" FTW. But BO ISN'T doing that. He's running on the "I'm a Compassionate Republican."

    [ Parent ]
    Hey thanks for the 1 tben (2.00 / 1) (#162)
    by owenaprhys on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:03:20 PM EST
    I know that I have said something with class, and intelligence when you 1 me.

    [ Parent ]
    Iraq flip (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Emma on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:25:49 PM EST
    Why flip-flop on Iraq?  Because his original "out in 16 months" is never. ever. ever. going to happen.  He needs a more realistic policy now that he doesn't have to draw a sharp distinction between himself and HRC on this issue.  So, he adopts HRC's policy.

    Obama (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:30:20 PM EST
    Had to come back with a clarification three times in one week:

    Faith base initiatives
    Abortion stand (mental stress)
    Iraq

    Before that it was FISA and public funding.
    Whether you call it flip flop or whatever, it does leave the public questioning either his ability or integrity. It's time for him to offer solutions to the problems that are decimating American's across the country. Hopes and dreams may not be enough if the economy continues to tank.


    "First impressions" (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:36:20 PM EST
    -- as a candidate in the GE and not in the Primary -- are hard to shake and if many Voters become aware of Obama's need to "refine" what he says, they may decide he's not to be believed or trusted and tune him out altogether.

    He needs to learn to pick a position -- throw a dart at a dartboard if need be, for God's sake! -- and just stick to it!  No wiggle room, no "refining", no WORM.  Just show a spine and the voters will love you.  Bend over backwards to please everybody and you lose their respect and attention.

    And eventually the Election.

    [ Parent ]

    The Flip Flop could possible cost him the election (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Saul on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:36:24 PM EST
    I am not convinced that you can take them lightly.  He is only 5 points ahead nationally.  Thats not much.  It also depends what we mean  by flip flopping on Iraq.  If you say its only a flip flop if its a 180 degree turn on what he originally said then so far probably not.  But if he keeps refining Iraq as time goes by then it could be a variation to many as a flip flop.  Time will tell but too many flip flops will destroy on whether you are sincere in anything you say and therefore people will no longer have any respect on what he says and  will stay home in November.

    If anything can (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:38:38 PM EST
    it will be this.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Jane in CA on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:00:08 PM EST
    Again, anecdotal only, but of the three people I know who were planning to vote for Obama, two were voting for him because of his stance on Iraq.  Already one has said he will not vote in November due to the Senator's latest spin on Iraq.  The other (my boss) hasn't said, but I know he must be very concerned.  Iraq was HIS issue this election, and I know he already had grave concerns about Obama's ability to stay the course based on FISA, NAFTA, Public Financing, etc. before this latest "refinement" on Iraq was even unveiled.

    The third doesn't count.  It's my brother, the misogynist libertarian, who can't articulate any coherent reason at all that he wants Obama to be president.

    [ Parent ]

    Whoops (5.00 / 0) (#100)
    by Jane in CA on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:14:03 PM EST
    I thought BTD was talking about the war as well.

    I still think that's going to kill Obama with his most enthusiastic base (who signed up for him because of his antiwar "credentials"), but BTD is right that the flip flopper label will hurt him with a much wider swath of non-single issue voters.

    [ Parent ]

    Misogynist libertarians (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by tree on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:17:18 PM EST
    are one of his core constituencies, at least on the intertoobz.

    [ Parent ]
    I assume you mean FISA (4.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:47:20 PM EST
    but I still think the war is a bigger problem.  I have seen it said here that his new was position is not new, and that may be, but that is not the impression many of his most ardent supporters left the primary with apparently.
    based on conversations this weekend.  FISA was almost never mentioned.  Iraq was mentioned a lot.

    [ Parent ]
    You assume wrong (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:49:25 PM EST
    The flip flopper/not standing for anything meme is what killed Kerry and it is what can kill Obama, if anything can.

    [ Parent ]
    oh (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:50:29 PM EST
    then I agree completely

    [ Parent ]
    also (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:54:25 PM EST
    I dont remember Kerry giving them half the ammunition Obama has given them.
    I just got a disgruntled dem mail this morning with a gigantic list of flips.


    [ Parent ]
    Kerry gave them the soundbite of all time (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:57:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:20:14 PM EST
    may have too but we just don't know it yet.

    [ Parent ]
    O have given them (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:30:42 PM EST
    some extremely choice soundbites.  we just wont  hear them until after the convention:

    . . . said Brown, who is perhaps best know as a creator of the independent expenditure Willie Horton ad that helped elect George H.W. Bush in 1988. "Most haven't looked at the issues. They don't know Barack Obama. It's all about delivering messages to those people during that moment in time when they're listening."


    [ Parent ]

    Yup. (none / 0) (#198)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:06:09 PM EST
    Just can't beat "I actually voted for it....before I voted against it."  Or vice versa.  Or...

    Yeah.  That was a classic and will live in politics for all time.

    [ Parent ]

    he's passed flip flopping (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by environmentally blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:36:57 PM EST
    and this says it all.

    And, I think it's great.

    obama has attained "shapeshifter" status (3.00 / 2) (#37)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:39:11 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Same here.... (5.00 / 0) (#201)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:10:34 PM EST
    I've been shifting shape ever since I ended up under this damn bus.

    Gettin' crowded and it's becoming kind of a cranky bunch...

    [ Parent ]

    There is a good reason (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by HenryFTP on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:38:47 PM EST
    and that's because Obama and his team have been very well attuned from the outset to the corporate Media. As Paul Rosenberg has astutely noted, Obama's "postpartisan" and "unity" rhetoric resonates with the corporate Media's "bipartisan" and "Unity Party" themes that various elite Serious People intone on television and wax upon in columns.

    While Obama's recent statements have exposed him to the "flip flop" attack and have dismayed many Democrats, they have largely followed elite Serious Person opinion and given him some protection from being attacked in the corporate Media as a "liberal". Recalling the infamous Gibson-Stephanopoulos debate, I predict he'll start waffling on tax policy as well.

    I still think the most important primary that Obama won was the National Media Primary, having first become the anointed Media anti-Clinton candidate, and then becoming the presumptive Media nominee long before the primaries were over. I persist in thinking that Obama's rightward moves have not been made because they are vote-winning strategies per se, but rather because they are aimed at neutralizing McCain's advantage in the Media General Election. In particular, the Media will find it much easier to report that Obama is maintaining his lead in the polls because of his "moderation" rather than reporting that he is leading in the polls because the voters are angry and want to throw out the bums in Washington who have led the country to disaster. The Media are far too invested in those self-same disastrous policies, and Obama's "accommodation" of those policies makes him Responsible if not downright Serious and thus at least a worthy adversary to War Hero Fighter Jock Maverick John McCain.

    Given the continuing strength of the Media in influencing voter attitudes, as dismayed as I am I can readily understand why Obama thinks winning over or at least neutralizing key opinionmakers is a more effective strategy than the bolder Trumanesque approach I would prefer.

    That may heve been his thinking (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:48:16 PM EST
    but it clearly is faulty.

    the flip flop meme is MUCH worse for Obama than the :liberal" meme in THIS election.

    [ Parent ]

    I think it's faulty too, (none / 0) (#70)
    by HenryFTP on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:52:33 PM EST
    but for the country's sake I hope I'm wrong.

    [ Parent ]
    Talk about inside baseball! (5.00 / 0) (#91)
    by MsExPat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:04:24 PM EST
    If your analysis is right, and Obama's strategy is all about winning the Media Elections, then what an ironic situation we're looking at here! We've got a candidate who's built his creds on the fact that he's an "outside the Beltway" alternative, who is nevertheless playing the most Inside Baseball campaign possible.

    Whew. That's something to wrap my head around today. Not to mention the even bigger deal: that our democracy  has entered that post-post-modern stage where 100 percent of a candidate's strategy is about capturing controlling the media narrative.

    Nothing else matters.

    [ Parent ]

    The 2006 mid-term elections (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by HenryFTP on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:18:10 PM EST
    challenged the notion that capturing the Media narrative was the only thing that matters. But I agree that we're engaged in a fundamental struggle for our republican form of government. I think that an Obama victory achieved in part by catering to elite Opinionmaking be something of a setback in that struggle, particularly in view of the gains so hard won in 2006.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, but (5.00 / 0) (#123)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:35:10 PM EST
    will voters fall for it?

    Look what happened in New Hampshire and in many states after.

    [ Parent ]

    Win the battle, lose the war (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by MsExPat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:38:01 PM EST
    I have to thank you, because your line of argument here has helped me pin down just what has been troubling me most about Obama this last month.

    It's more than the flip flops and the scramble to the center. It's the cynicism. In three weeks, we've traded the promise of "Yes, we can" politics for "No we can't...gotta play it by Media Rules if we want to win."

    I grew up around ward-style politics, my family was in it, so I'm a pretty tough skinned pragmatist when it comes to pols and their ways. Still, I do believe that the way you win the game is the way you gotta keep playing it. An all- Media Narrative strategy may win Obama the presidency, but it's going to end up a hollow victory in the longer run--for Obama, the Democratic Party, for all of us.

    [ Parent ]

    I think that you may be (none / 0) (#40)
    by eric on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:41:16 PM EST
    on to something.  Good post.

    [ Parent ]
    sounds a little like wishful thinking, but time (none / 0) (#53)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:47:21 PM EST
    will tell that story....

    [ Parent ]
    I think he will govern (none / 0) (#64)
    by HenryFTP on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:51:01 PM EST
    in much the same way he has campaigned. As well he might, given the vulnerability of Democratic Presidents to concerted attack by Beltway insiders and the Establishment (Carter driven from office, Clinton impeached and vilified (even while gaining in popular support in the country).

    [ Parent ]
    Regarding the tax policy waffling... (none / 0) (#140)
    by Grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:46:58 PM EST
    I understand he has at least one known Supply Sider on his economic team...

    I don't like the idea of that.  "Trickle Down" didn't work that well.  

    [ Parent ]

    The $64,000 question. (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:40:51 PM EST
    Why Flip Flop At All?

    I've been asking it and not liking the answers I'm getting from Obama supporters.

    most of the ones I spoke (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:44:24 PM EST
    to over the holiday, and there was several, hardly seem aware of the flips and flops.
    to an extent that was disturbing.  I suppose there are plenty of places on the web where is these things are discussed at all they are only "put into context"

    [ Parent ]
    If I were an Obama (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:51:39 PM EST
    supporter, I wouldn't want to mess up my beautiful mind with inconvenient truths about the candidate.  Therefore, I'd pay almost no attention to the news, or else I'd rationalize his position changes into pretzel-shaped pieces, much as his supporters are doing in this very thread right now, as a matter of fact.  :)

    I especially like this one:

    He has to do this in order to win in November!

    [ Parent ]

    Pie....did they tell you to check his website? :) (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:47:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Heh. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:52:57 PM EST
    Most of them have finally realized the silliness of that advice.

    [ Parent ]
    anglachelg (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:42:25 PM EST
    has a typically insightful post up about his thinking on some of the flips and flops.
    its called Classification.

    I wish Obama would tell (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by bjorn on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:48:45 PM EST
    why he has flip-flopped on FISA.  He and his advisors are the only ones who know why they are doing it.  Seems crazy to me.

    It's baffling (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:03:47 PM EST
    It's like they think the "liberal" label is such political poison they'd rather have a "who knows what he is" label.  The idea that he's a man of conviction, that he has solid principles, that's all going by the wayside.

    Lots of Democrats run to the center in the general election.  But I cannot remember a candidate who has embarked on such a hasty, clumsy shift on so many issues almost immediately after securing the nomination.  It's way too obvious.  When you move to the center, you're hoping to present yourself as authentic, not looking to hang out a neon sign that says "HEY, I AM MOVING TO THE CENTER HERE."

    It seems Obama is very consciously running as the "I'm whatever you want me to be" candidate.

    Exactly. (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM EST
    The idea that he's a man of conviction, that he has solid principles, that's all going by the wayside.

    Why his supporters refuse to see this is beyond me.

    [ Parent ]

    its because (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:20:09 PM EST
    for many of them convictions and principles never had anything to do with it.

    [ Parent ]
    Implore Obama to unflip his FISA flop tomorrow (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:28:50 PM EST
    Chuck Schumer pried his @ss loose from his prime seat in the schvitz at the Senate Spa to throw himself selflessly at TV cameras last week, vowing to stand up and oppose the FISA cave-in.

    This could have been to hype his wknd appearance as scenery that chews itself on Law & Order: Criminally Over-Acted. (Sen was speechifying).

    More likely the photo-op was a predictable scrap of Dem theater to deflect the ire of the rabble-ATMs during the Dems holiday cookouts done old-fashioned Dem-style -- off @sses fully ablaze from their pants on fire -- before returning rested and refreshed for yet another mass cave.

    (I'm discounting the possibility that Sen Schumer appeared in a rare moment of strong, unwavering principled leadership from the Jellycrats because I'm too unfamiliar to ascribe that one occurrence and certainly not a whole category.)

    In any case, now that we have Obama, the Best Speechmaker Evah, in the Senate and running for Prez, he should be leading the charge to stamp out this bill. He should be leading the charge to shut down this disgrace.

    Get your dialing fingers and send buttons ready to remind them that the days of trusting them to represent you in good faith are over, but you will keep an open mind and reward good behavior.

    Sen. Clinton should filibuster (none / 0) (#141)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:47:14 PM EST
    A filibuster is a good opportunity to clarify the differences between protecting America and having no accountability.  If she filibusters, she'll be on TVs all across the country clarifying the essential components of the Democratic platform and helping to consolidate the base.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama not HRC's the Presumptive Leader of the Dems (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:02:40 PM EST
    For gawd's sake Sen Clinton is not on the ticket. Get over it. Move on.

    As Rahm Emmanuel, Donna Brazile, Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean have emphatically told us and media, Clinton supporters were replaced weeks ago by masses of shiny New Democrats Obama has brought in and will continue to do from the Republican side of the aisle..

    Get behind the party message: Support Obama or STFU and get over your unhealthy Clinton obsession already unless you want Obama to appear even more inept that he already does.

    [ Parent ]

    Are you promoting one party rule (none / 0) (#177)
    by my opinion on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:16:33 PM EST
    and no freedom of speech?

    [ Parent ]
    Ok. I jumped the gun. Missed your point. (none / 0) (#178)
    by my opinion on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:18:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hillary should filibuster (none / 0) (#179)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:20:28 PM EST
    I'm not stuck in the past.  Are you?

    [ Parent ]
    As Dem LEADERSHIP Obama should show his skill (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:45:19 PM EST
    ... and his supporters should stop hanging off Sen Clinton and stop trying to deflect Obama's glaring weaknesses and flip flops this way.

    Jeez, if the Dems don't already have buyer's remorse over pushing his wheezing carcass over the "finish" line in the primaries, then continuing to hide behind Sen Clinton isn't going to generate confidence.

    [ Parent ]

    Why Not? (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by daring grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:59:58 PM EST
    So Obama's not going to, why does that mean no other Dem senator can?

    Indeed, by what your saying, any Dem senator who DOES filibuster is showing the kind of leadership many of us want to see.

    So she's not the nominee. She's still my senator. I'm not going to hold it against her that she does not filibuster, but I would sure stand behind her if she did.

    [ Parent ]

    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:06:23 PM EST
    I would love it if she would filibuster, although some would portray it as just an attempt to show up Obama after his highly-publicized change of position.  Then again, maybe that's part of why I would love it.

    But nevertheless, when someone who says "Obama can't possibly vote against the bill, the GOP would paint him as soft on terror" also says "but gee, Hillary ought to filibuster!" I think it's fair game to call that a weaselly stance.  I don't like people whose best defense of Obama's lack of political courage is to try and point out that Hillary also lacks it.

    [ Parent ]

    Hope You're Referring To Someone Else (none / 0) (#202)
    by daring grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:13:06 PM EST
    who says ""Obama can't possibly vote against the bill,..." etc. because I never have and it isn't my position.

    I'm angry about this shift, and by Obama's lining up with those Dems in Congress who are foisting it.

    Not a Hillary supporter, but in this case if she did something powerful like filibuster this, I would support her on it and respect her for it.

    And I think other people like me (Obama supporters, but not Clinton haters) might feel the same.

    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely not true Steve (none / 0) (#203)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:15:33 PM EST
    Obama is the Dem candidate.  He's running for Commander in Chief.  If the GOP makes ads that say Sen. Clinton is weak on terrorism, it doesn't affect the election.  But if Obama is shown as undermining the government's ability to protect us, 527 ads using his words against this version of FISA would be very effective.

    Since he's supporting it now, any smears they make are easily scoffed at, given the differences in last years FISA bill and this one.  Yeah, we know this bill is worse, but the target audience for anti-Obama smears don't know it.

    [ Parent ]

    No one's hiding behind Hillary Clinton (none / 0) (#197)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:03:14 PM EST
    Why do you keep bringing this back to Obama?  My post says Sen Clinton should filibuster, regardless of what Obama does.

    My preference is that Obama stay focused on the presidential race.

    Hillary should filibuster this.  She said she was against telecom immunity.  She's not running for president.  I pay her salary, it's her job to stand up for the constitution and it's a good opportunity for her to help Americans understand why the telecom immunity component is dangerous.  It's what she's good at, and it would be helpful to the Dem party for her to speak to the party's base about the issues we stand for.

    Wanting her to do her job has nothing to do with Obama.  Please don't bring this back to some nonsense about me thinking she's still on the ticket or needing to hang on her.  I've moved on, so don't imply I'm still stuck back in the primary.


    [ Parent ]

    The Landslide Gambit (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by WakeLtd on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:51:40 PM EST
    I think there is a strategic explanation for the flip-flops, the semi-flip-flops, the refinement of positions, the changes in emphasis, and all the other newly-minted nuanced statements coming from the Obama camp. I think that they believe that this election can have historic landslide potential for Obama. So they want to have something to appeal to all voters. It is a prediction I first heard from the most ardent supporters who talked in terms of Obama winning 80% of the popular vote. I dismissed that idea at first, working on the assumption that this election would be another squeaker, like the past two elections. Maybe I was thinking too small. They have a lot of cash and I think they are going "all in". Some would say they are trying to "buy the pot". Of course, they could end up with a busted hand.

    I believe obama truly believes, he cannot (4.50 / 6) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:03:31 PM EST
    be knocked down by anything....hopefully, the truth will set the electorate free.

    Hopefully he will lose? (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Veracitor on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:53:58 PM EST
    Talking Left?

    [ Parent ]
    you think Obama (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:21:13 PM EST
    is a leftie?


    [ Parent ]
    If obama is a lefty, McCain must be one too (none / 0) (#118)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:31:11 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    no kidding (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:35:37 PM EST
    but then, that is exactly what the right wing thinks.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama-the-Candidate is a product, (4.00 / 3) (#71)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:52:45 PM EST
    one that has been built from the ground up, starting from long before David Axelrod ever landed Obama as a client.  He has an impressive resume, but get under the surface and there isn't much there - it's veneer.  His books - well, who knows how much is the real thing and how much is fictionalized, but again - it's a "feel-good" story about someone who succeeds against the odds, even if, once you peel back a few of those layers, the "odds" are not all that daunting.  He claims to be all about the little guy, but when his constituents were freezing in Rezko-developed and managed buildings he was nowhere to be found.  He hasn't even been able to take his Senate responsibilities seriously and yet, he wants to claim that his "judgment" is far superior to anyone else's.  

    Obama-the-Product, now king of the internets and master of online marketing, wants/ needs to be in more homes than Kleenex or Bounty or TV Guide or Land O'Lakes butter, so he's selling himself to whomever he can, however he can - even if that means that he's reversing course or side-stepping a position or abandoning one altogether.  

    He would not say he is flip-flopping - he would probably say that he is delving into the needs of all the people, finding what resonates with them and identifying elements of his platform that can appeal to them.  He's a product, one that a lot of people are wary of being able to perform as advertised.

    Somewhere along the way, while Obama was writing this story, he forgot that it's important to be a real person, with something real at his core, and that is why he's doing this.

    With all due respect, Anne, (none / 0) (#94)
    by HenryFTP on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:09:55 PM EST
    you would never have gone very far on Madison Avenue. The Obama campaign has been mostly about the sizzle, not the steak.

    Obama is hardly the first Democrat in recent years who has seemed less than enamoured of the "product" (i.e., Democratic policies). Obama would much rather stick to delivering his "message" rather than delivering on policies. Given the fact that our allegedly most esteemed political writer, David Broder, openly professes boredom when Al Gore talks about climate change or Hillary Clinton talks about energy policy, can any of us really be surprised that the Party Establishment preferred a guy who is really good at "message" and somewhat indifferent to actual policies?

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, I agree, Henry - for sure about the (4.50 / 2) (#114)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:23:46 PM EST
    Madison Avenue part! - but I think we have a confluence of hollow man, compliant, lazy media, and easily manipulated electorate.

    The last candidate I think was so devoid of substance was George Bush, but the difference is that I don't think Bush ever groomed himself for the presidency the way Obama has.

    Reminds me of an article I read a few years ago on the marketing of Claritin - which despite being abysmally ineffective became the best-selling drug on the market, and it was all about direct-to-consumer marketing and working the doctors who would prescribe it.  Was amazed to learn that millions of people had been spending billions of dollars on a drug that was less effective than the placebo it was tested against.

    [ Parent ]

    Quite simply.... (2.66 / 3) (#44)
    by Veracitor on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:43:06 PM EST
    Obama has not flip-flopped.  He has appropriately refined his positions as necessary to meet evolving campaign necessities - further disclosure, clarification, changing circumstances, etc.

    A flip-flop is when one compeletley switches sides of an issue, as John McCain has done repeatedly.

    For example - Obama is still strongly supports pro-choice, but added that he does not believe "mental distress" should be a reason for terminating a late stage pregnancy.  If he had announced that he has decided to abandon pro-choice in favor of anti-abortion, that would be a flip-flop.

    But probably not among irrational Obama bashers.

    False (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:46:56 PM EST
    Obama promised to filibuster ANY bill that contained telecom immunity.

    Now he will vote FOR a bill with telecom immunity.

    that is a complete flip flop.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD, I'm going to argue for your man now: (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:10:15 PM EST
    It was not a "flip flop."  

    Yes, he said he would filibuster any bill that included telecom immunity - but then he had "a change of heart."  He has spoken about "change" all along and so, this is keeping his word that he is going to bring "change" to Washington.  And the first way he is doing this is by having a "change of heart" over telecom immunity.  If one wants to get greater things accomplished, one must behave in a "post-partisan" way which allows one to make decisions without any partisanship at all.  The declaration he made of filibustering any bill was a partisan declartion -- and now he is "post partisan."  Telecom immunity, with the support of both Democrats and Republicans, is a post-partisan idea.    

    We must all move on.  A "change of heart" is in our best interest and is not a flip flop.  

    (Do I get an A for this?  I love this debate thing!)    

    [ Parent ]

    Really good (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:12:17 PM EST
    I nominate you to fill this position on a permanent basis.  Unless, of course, we decide a "change" is required.

    [ Parent ]
    That's one..... (2.66 / 3) (#67)
    by Veracitor on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:51:36 PM EST
    .....but it doesn't merit categorizing him as a flip-flopper.

    And in regard to the larger subject of illegal eavesdropping and civil liberties, he's far better than the alternative, which is a continuation of all things Bush.

    [ Parent ]

    Why (none / 0) (#137)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:42:03 PM EST
    He's better than the alternative. Why especially in this election cycle should we accept that as a legitimate reason. We had the country behind us to have a true Democrat in the WH in 2009. There was never any reason to play into the Republican brand, it's trashed.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama has never been strongly pro-choice. (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:48:35 PM EST
    And wouldn't you say that going from pro-public financing to anti-public financing is a complete switch?

    [ Parent ]
    He's pro-choice. (3.66 / 3) (#73)
    by Veracitor on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:52:57 PM EST
    Period.  He has not "flip-flopped" on the fundamental issue.

    [ Parent ]
    You can't be strongly pro-choice and (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:56:15 PM EST
    desire to be a Roberts supporter at the same time.

    [ Parent ]
    B.S. (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:58:06 PM EST
    Not only does that not make much sense grammatically it makes no sense logically.

    It's no different than religious folks who say that if you don't fight to outlaw abortion you aren't pro-life.  

    [ Parent ]

    BO anti-contraception outreach is a HUGE flipflop (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:11:11 PM EST
    Stumping for weeks with Sen Casey Jr (who has vowed to use his office to overturn Roe. He would deny women choice based on the stand that fertilized eggs have more constitutional protections than disposable fertility pods carrying them).

    He's reaching out to no=choice evangelicals.

    That is NOT what a pro-choice candidate who will liberalize the courts looks like.

    [ Parent ]

    It's fun when (3.00 / 2) (#75)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:54:12 PM EST
    you completely make things up isn't it?

    When has Obama ever voted, in the Il state legislator or in the Senate, for a bill hostile to pro-choice rights?

    When did Obama become anti-public finance?   He opted to forgo public financing.  That doesn't make him anti-public finance although I don't know if he was ever terribly excited about public finance.

    I know that I find public finance to be a sheer waste of time if 527 organizations can do whatever they please with no regulations.  

    [ Parent ]

    Apparently (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by Jackson Hunter on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:11:20 PM EST
    it is for you.  He not only promised to use Public Financing, he banged away at Clinton for refusing to make the same vow, and then he turns around and breaks his promise.  Here in the real world we call that lying.  If he had used it once as a throwaway line in some random speech, that would be different, but he focused on it.  I don't have a Public Finance fetish, but you can say that PF is not necessarily good policy and also say Obama was disingenuous at the same time.  It was a flip flop, pure and simple.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    And thus flip-flop (none / 0) (#102)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:17:17 PM EST
    joins the ranks of words that once had meaning but no longer.

    Let me try this again.  Does the fact that he chose not to accept public financing mean that he opposes public financing?

    And in the real world I am accustomed to lying and breaking a promise are 2 different and distinct acts.  But my real world may be different than yours.

    [ Parent ]

    OK let me have a try (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by tree on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:31:20 PM EST
    Does the fact that he now chooses not to accept the constraints of  public financing mean that he didn't pledge to accept it earlier in the campaign? Of course not. That's a flip-flop in his position. The word has meaning whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.