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Saturday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 06:45:36 PM EST
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JFK was assassinated today in 1963. I just tuned into a CNN special and saw Lee Harvey Oswald get arrested, and then shot. They cut to interviews of passersby. "That wasn't right. He deserved a fair trial," said the first one. The second one echoed the same sentiments.

Amazing how many people forget or intentionally disregard that bedrock principle of our criminal justice system. The latest victim: Bill Cosby. I won't dignify the accusations against him by repeating them. I will report that he got a standing ovation in Florida last night.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Saturday Night Open Thread | 115 comments (115 topical)

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    Everybody remembers where they were (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by fishcamp on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 07:34:34 PM EST
    when first hearing about it.  I was at Portland stoneware buying a coffee cup I still have.  The entire world was shocked in one sad day.

    I was at school. My parents had taken my (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Angel on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 08:37:13 PM EST
    younger brother to the eye doctor and afterwards took him to get a malt at the local pharmacy.  While they were there it was announced what had happened. Although I don't remember it exactly, they rushed to the elementary school to collect my two sisters and me.  What I do remember is that both my parents were crying and upset.  That event and my parents reactions to it left an indelible impression on me at the age of six.

    Parent
    The idiot who told me was laughing. (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 08:22:27 PM EST


    Parent
    I was not quite three years old. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 11:10:46 PM EST
    All I know about that day is from what my mother told me. She had taken me to the pediatrician in Pasadena, and we were on our way home when she heard the initial report about the shooting over the car radio. She instead went immediately to her sister's house, and they watched event unfold from there. As for me, I was probably taking a nap. I was gung-ho about naps back then -- and still am.

    Parent
    I was at school (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 07:15:27 AM EST
    in the 5th grade.  They sent us home early.   I just remember the whole thing being kind of somber and sad even as we were getting on the buses to go home there was none of the usual horseplay.  Like we sensed something big had happened even if we might not have understood how big.

    Parent
    I was in 8th grade (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Peter G on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 12:48:07 PM EST
    and my sister was in 7th. The next day is the only time during my entire childhood, as best I can recall, that our parents took us to a religious service or house of worship, other than for a family wedding or funeral. They wanted to be with other members of the community in that kind of setting, obviously.

    Parent
    J, if the *actual* laws and the prosecution of (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by ZtoA on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 10:15:20 PM EST
    those laws were fair, then women who have been raped might be able to report crimes against them. As it is now, females are hugely discriminated against when it comes to rape and other violent crimes.

    Powerful, famous males simply commit crimes and never have to face their victims. Never. This actually encourages and promotes rape culture. Remember, rape IS a crime.

    Maybe the first baby step is in the court of public opinion. Maybe the laws, enforcement of those laws, and prosecuting of those violent crimes might follow. Who knows if Cosby did rape all these women. But the females have as much a right to demand prosecution of laws as males do. And -IMO- females and males should support females (and males like in the catholic priest rape cases) when, and if they do come out with their stories.

    The Bill Cosby story makes me sad. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 11:24:15 PM EST
    He's always been one of my favorite celebrities. But there are simply too many women from different eras and walks of life who are now leveling the same exact charge against him, and their numbers suggest that these claims can't simply be dismissed out of hand. I believe in all instances, the statute of limitations has run out both criminally and civilly, so they've really got nothing to gain by saying what they're saying. So he's not in any legal jeopardy, as far as I know.

    But shame on Cosby if these allegations are true. That's all I'll say.

    Parent

    Same feelings, same sad from me, Donald (none / 0) (#20)
    by christinep on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 10:08:38 AM EST
    I would add at this point that "the point" has now been made by those allegedly assaulted (and, I agree that the allegations are so numerous as to suggest some things happened that jive with the narrative) and, splayed all over every media outlet as well.  So ... it seems that everyone will draw his/her own conclusions about the public assertions ... any media continuance, without additional info, tomorrow or the next day appears only to be of the since-the-courts-avenue-doesn't-look-to-be-in-the-cards-let's-kick-him-some-more-for-vengeance-sake.  This is one of the times, imo, we're getting very near the "let's move on" juncture.

    Parent
    Move on? (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by lentinel on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 07:27:00 PM EST
    This is one of the times, imo, we're getting very near the "let's move on" juncture.

    Who is the "us" in your "let's" move on?

    The women reporting these incidents have not been able to "move on". They are still coping with the assaults that they claim  they endured. The fact that there are people to whom they confided their distress contemporaneously to the alleged events lends considerable credibility to their charges, in my opinion.

    If one were to,"agree that the allegations are so numerous as to suggest some things happened that jive with the narrative". I personally think that anger is a more justified emotion than sadness.

    It is the victims about whom we should be feeling sorrow.

    Do we feel sad about a pedophile in the Clergy being brought to light - even decades after the assaults?

    Parent

    I can't see the point of being angry ... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 11:42:58 PM EST
    ... when I can't do anything about it personally. Anger is a volatile emotion that (for me, at least) consumes a lot of energy. When I get angry, I'd like it to be with some higher purpose in mind. I can't turn it on simply for it's own sake. Were one of these women a close relative or friend, I'd obviously feel quite differently.

    This story makes me sad, because there's a lot of hurt out there that's gone unresolved, in some cases going back 35 years or more. And that does concern me, because if these allegations are true, then this is serial abuse that's in the realm of monstrous and sickening.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The Washington Post has an in-depth (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:36:37 AM EST
    article in yesterday's edition, which may interest you and others; it was enlightening, if nothing else.

    For what it's worth, I think there actually is a comparison to be made to the revelations years ago about abuse being committed by Catholic priests.  No one wanted to believe those, remember, and part of people even being able to believe it was possible was in being able to see past the veneer of respectability and impeccable morality that was attached to being a priest.  Not that Cosby is a priest, but he has that image of America's Dad, the kindly and caring favorite uncle, the family man that doesn't go along with the kinds of things he's been accused of doing.

    If nothing else, it's hard to deny that there was a pattern, and it's harder still to convince yourself that this many women over that many years can all just be making it up.  

    And I don't think that just because an arbitrary statute of limitations has run out on possible crimes means that the legacy of harm just vanishes.  

    Anyway - the link is there for anyone who's interested.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#54)
    by lentinel on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 09:10:45 AM EST
    with what you said about anger.

    In my opinion, anger does not consume energy. It releases it.

    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#55)
    by lentinel on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 09:37:15 AM EST
    you really mean this:
    Were one of these women a close relative or friend, I'd obviously feel quite differently.

    I know that your sense of compassion would extend to people who have suffered, even if they are people you don't know first hand.

    I think you might be dealing with your first reaction to this Cosby situation - which was, I believe, to experience some sadness at Cosby's true persona being revealed as something other than what we had been led to believe. A sadness linked to a sense of betrayal.

    Parent

    Exactly, Donald (none / 0) (#56)
    by christinep on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 09:49:40 AM EST
    At this point ... it seems that a question to ask ourselves should we want to "hold on" to anger, fury, loathing, and disgust is: What do we want to see next? OR What should happen next? OR What should resolve this, if anything, now?  

    And, the phrase "move on" is more than a little overused these days, I suspect that words to the same effect may make sense.  I suspect that what we have learned is a lesson in assuming that public roles can be quite different than personal life ... a lesson I learn and re-learn and re-learn over the years.  Since I long ago gave up the immediate relish of seeing someone knocked from a pedestal (rightly or wrongly displaced), I also feel more sad than mad.

    Parent

    echoing lentinel (5.00 / 5) (#59)
    by sj on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 10:28:35 AM EST
    Who, exactly, is the "we" that needs to learn a lesson? As I see it, women who have long been silenced now have a voice. I have no desire to hear more. I also have no desire to silence anyone.

    And what is there, exactly, to "resolve"? If you want to "move on" from the pedestal then by all means, do so. You have no right to an opinion on what these women should do. Neither do I. They must do what they must. And only they can decide.

    Parent

    Not as complicated as your comment seems, sj (none / 0) (#73)
    by christinep on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 01:34:14 PM EST
    The "we" is all of us who put an individual on a pedestal ... mostly, it is "me" and "people who put someone on a pedestal" from time to time ... the lesson is that they often-times fall.  Sometimes the fall is occasioned by the reality that it is almost impossible for anyone to satisfy the expectations that accompany one-on-a-pedestal; and, other times, it is the likes of seeing yet again someone who appeared to be "so good" turn out--from what now seems likely--to be quite the opposite in terms of sexual attitudes/actions against women.

    'Not meant to be a fighting statement; meant only to follow on Donald's similar comment.  As for my expression about "what next" (related to "move on"), that was a philosophical reflection as well as a reflection against the media's approach in anything said media views as sensational selling. Finally, the "letting go" aspect of me is a strong personal view that--eventually--it hurts more to hold onto the justified anger than it does to let it go.  No direction to anyone else ... simply a personal attitude that was hard to come by for me.

    Parent

    Yes, sometimes we do "move beyond" (none / 0) (#104)
    by christinep on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:43:08 PM EST
    We have to. Others need other resolution.  Here is why I speak this way (after two glasses of wine): When my sister was 10 and I was 14, we--together with my Dad--were at a large company picnic, a company in which a cousin was employed.  During that picnic in the foothills, my young sister was raped by a 20 year old male who followed her and a young cousin as they walked toward the periphery of the picnic.  The upshot: The cousin came running, my Dad and others following chased to the spot and found him, Dad pummeled the man, the police showed up, we all went home in a blur; my sister testified later and that man was convicted and sentenced to 20+ years.

    Later, my sister suffered silently ... in untold ways, I guess we all did (because you really didn't talk about those things then.) When she was about 30, we all talked about it ... what was left to do, we came to realize--most important, she as child victim came to feel and genuinely know--that letting it go and forgiving helped us.
    Elsewise, she (and I) would shrivel in our own hatred.  There were lots of tears then, but the apprehensive nights disappeared.  

    This really is sadder than sad to talk about again.  But, damn it, that is what my sister did to trade that anger for emotional recuperation.  IMO, she was right.  Right for her.  She understood (and I understand) that others do things differently to live again in the light.  But, damn it, don't ever assume that there is one angry answer for everything.


    Parent

    These allegations are reminding me (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 11:21:57 AM EST
    Bob Filner's oh-so-brief tenure as mayor of San Diego.

    Parent
    Yes, oculus. (none / 0) (#26)
    by christinep on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 01:17:47 PM EST
    Throughout politics, literature (see Scarlet Letter), and the entertainment industry.  Almost forgot sports' idols as well.

    Parent
    That's a very apt comparison. (none / 0) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 03:33:32 PM EST
    It's not like I want to believe this sort of stuff, because I really don't. I dismissed the first one or two tales as so much "Andy Warhol's fifteen minutes"-type gossip. But with the sordid stories now piling up like so many Buffalo snowdrifts, it's rather difficult for me to ignore the distinct possibility that someone I've long liked and admired has a rather scary and unseemly side of him, one that's heretofore been well hidden.

    Parent
    Saw Bob Dylan in concert last night (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Peter G on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 10:17:03 PM EST
    in Philadelphia.  With our 24-year-old daughter. She may have been the youngest person there.  I was about average.  I last saw Dylan live in 1968.  Rather different.  He played five or six songs I knew, out of 20, only two from before 1976.  All were markedly rearranged (which of course is a hallmark of his live performances). Although I love his early songs (1962-1966 and mid-70s), the arrangements I like best are the ones on "Bob Dylan at Budokan" (1978 performances, released in 1979). Ironically, this is apparently one of his releases that is least-liked by rock critics.

    I remember... (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by desertswine on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 10:31:48 PM EST
    that I had seen Joan Baez in concert not so very long ago, and when I told the people at work who I had seen, no one knew who she was.  It was a moment of realization.

    Parent
    Just got home from seein MOtown at the Fox (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 06:40:15 PM EST
    They performed to a full house and all shows were sold out. The singing, dancing and the settings were great and the entire audience was totally involved. Hearing all the songs from my youth was an added benefit.

    A great time was had by all.

    Parent

    Good to hear the people of St. Louis (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:09:24 PM EST
    had the gumption to go to a show at the Fox instead of staying home w/their newly-or nor so newly-acquired firearms guarding the homestead.

    I do love the Fox Theatre. So gclassy

    Parent

    The place was packed (none / 0) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:47:49 PM EST
    Very integrated and friendly crowd   Everyone enjoying the music and talking and laughing before the show and during intermission. Good time.

    St. Louis and St. Louis County is a big area. Can't imagine everyone in the region hunkering down. The people in Ferguson may find it necessary at some time in the future. I think most of us will probably be able to go on as pretty much as usual if the people with the guns don't start shooting at shadows.

    I also love the Fox and am so glad that smart people made the decision to renovate it and preserve for future generations.

    Parent

    huh (none / 0) (#19)
    by Reconstructionist on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:14:39 AM EST
      The reviews in the wiki article are a bit dated, and colored  by the contrast to the preceding Rolling Thunder Revue both in terms of performances and the venues. It's amusing now to see him written off as an over the hill nostalgia act nearly 40 years ago. I think critics of that era felt like he had an obligation to  be "their" Bob Dylan and probably also resented the big money (for the times) of the 78 tour. In retrospect, it's just one of many faces he has presented and as valid as any other. One of the things about Dylan is you never see the same guy twice.

    That said, the 78 tour was not among my favorites (I've seen him 15-20 times).

       I first saw him in 1978 in Cincinnati (and I hope to see him again at the Beacon next month)

    Parent

    Former DC Mayor (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Zorba on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 06:55:52 AM EST
    And current Council Member Marion Barry has died.
    Family's statement here.

    Miss Lindsey is not having it. (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by KeysDan on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 02:04:05 PM EST
    Senator Graham, when asked on CNN's State of the Nation, about the GOP-led House panel on Benghazi, demonstrated his keen analytical skills with his response of: "I think the report is a bunch of crap."  

    The House report (as did previous reports) concluded that the CIA and Military acted properly and the White House did not attempt to mislead.  But, it is understandable, in a way, that Senator Graham is upset with the findings, having invested so much for so long in Benghazi-gate, only to have one of his five Iraqi rugs (all for five bucks!) pulled out from under him.   And, by his own team.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 04:04:01 PM EST
    that's the neo-confederates for you. Unless you're justifying their conspiracy theories it's not true. They always decide what is going on and then try to make the facts fit what their preconceived notions are and if the facts don't fit their theories then you get the response Lindsey gave.

    Parent
    The report (2.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Mikado Cat on Tue Nov 25, 2014 at 04:30:23 AM EST
    wasn't from the whole committee, just two politician doing cya before they lose the power to do it. Leave the comfort of media that refuses to offend the left in any way and their actions get spelled out clearly. Both have a major stake in leaving Benghazi covered up.

    Parent
    How many investigations will suffice for you? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by christinep on Tue Nov 25, 2014 at 11:06:28 AM EST
    Wait, wait ... could it be that the answer is something like "when I feel there is no cover-up" which--to most--translates this way "When I get the answer that I have arrived at from the start and the only answer I will accept."

    At some point in our lives, we all get it wrong (from the start.)  We all do, Mikado ... whether first as a child who demands a result and stomps the foot for the wanted response or, later, when we are so sure that we-alone-know-the-answer-&-everyone-else-is-out-of-step.  But, here's the deal: My experience is that it is better to admit error when it stares you in the face than to deny what is rapidly becoming factually undeniable.  To hunker down in a beans-in-the-ears posture because you are afraid to acknowledge error only makes you look foolish and unreasonable.  It may sting to let go of a long-held assumption; but, continuing the posture betrays its own cover-up, story-telling mentality.

    Parent

    Well there are those pesky appendices (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 11:59:33 AM EST


    Parent
    And is there anything in these (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 12:18:53 PM EST
    documents to back up Sen. Graham's hissy fit that you could share with us benighted lefties?

    Parent
    Since Senator Graham (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 01:49:57 PM EST
    found only scatologic value in the Republican House's Intelligence Committee Report, perhaps the next report, from the new House Select Committee headed by Trey Gowdey (R. S.C.) will find the report to smell like flowers straight from the White House rose garden.  Lindsey should make his analytical mind available to fellow South Carolinian, Trey.

    Parent
    And perhaps pigs will fly (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 03:14:50 PM EST


    Parent
    Bill Cosby can choose (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by thomas rogan on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:23:05 PM EST
    He can sue these women for slander and prove his innocence in court.  Due to statute reasons he won't get indicted or be given a chance to prove his innocence in a criminal case.  Maybe he can waive statute rules and invite someone to try to indict him and call their "bluff".
    Or he can wait and see if any civil (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:27:49 PM EST
    lawsuits against him survive a challenge based on the stature of limitations.

    Parent
    stature of limitations (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 10:10:23 PM EST
    stature of limitations

    I think for him at his age that that has already run out :) He's not getting any taller.

    On the unseen side is how all of this affects the residuals of the reruns of his shows which must be quite substantial for not only himself but all the other actors.

    Many networks have cancelled them and those cancellations will affect the others as well as him and they will no doubt feel the pinch more than he will.

    Parent

    The brief here seems to be if it's wrong to (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by CMike on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 11:57:19 PM EST
    assassinate the Cos in the immediate wake of these numerous accusations then the logical alternative is for the general public to give him a standing "O" at the earliest opportunity. I take it that the propriety of that response would be found in the penumbra of a Bill of Celebrity Rights if such a document were to surface.

    Also it seems the case being made is that once the statute of limitations has run out in the matter of a sex crime, in order to avoid earning the indignation of certain civil libertarians the victim of the shameful deed should commit to keeping it a secret from the public ever after, and that even after several others have alleged publicly that they, themselves, have been victimized by the same perp. You know, it's one thing to expect officers of the court and jurors to presume the innocence of the accused but quite another to expect justice requires that the public would presume the duplicity of each of several accusers.      

    One would think that Cosby... (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by unitron on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 10:18:59 AM EST
    ...could have easily persuaded more women than he ever would have been able to get around to to voluntarily and enthusiastically join him in that particular pursuit of pleasure by

    A. employing his considerable charm and charisma,

     rather than

    B. having to resort to chemicals or coercion,

    and further, one would think that the enjoyment of doing it with the unconscious or decidedly unenthusiastic would be so limited in comparison to having them really happy to be there that one wonders just what he was getting, or attempting to get, out of it, if the accusations are valid.

    But I fear we may have to consider the possibility that, for whatever reason, he went with B.

    Rape isn't about (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by sj on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 10:37:46 AM EST
    giving and receiving mutual pleasure. It's about power.

    Parent
    THAT many congruent stories are lies? (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 01:13:22 PM EST
    That's ridiculous, J. Come on, don't you simply know when to say nothing? Seriously, my second stepfather had everyone who lived on our block convinced that he was a great guy, when he was a horribly phucked up abuser. This DESPITE the fact, on any given night, you could have heard OBVIOUS rage and abuse coming from our house.

    Can you give me examples of dozens of women falsely accusing the another man of essentially the same M.O. Cosby deserves the presumption of innocence, but not the celebrity worship bullsh*t he has now. Do you REALLY think a guy like Hannibal Burress is going to put this out there if he didn't know it was accurate, that he'd risk that career hit? You know why he didn't? Because it is well known in the industry. WELL know. Don't you think a phucknut sociopath like Cosby would sue the hell out of these folks if they were defaming him? Give me a large break.

    And here is a good example of what a piece of sh*t Cosby is, having nothing to do with his history of being, I'm sure as you are, falsely accused sexual assault. Cosby treats college athlete like sh*t, but merely reveals himself to be steaming piece of feces. (link)

    Well, It seems to me that (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Zorba on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 01:36:25 PM EST
    The presumption of innocence applies to our criminal justice system, not to what private citizens think about anybody.
    Cosby is not on trial, and will very likely never be on trial, given the statute of limitations.  And, of course, if he were ever to be indicted, he should certainly be granted the presumption of innocence that everyone who has been indicted gets.
    But these are women who have come forward to tell their stories.  We are free to believe them or disbelieve them, and Cosby is free to sue them for slander (and, perhaps he could also sue anyone who has printed these accusations for libel, as well).

    Parent
    Every year that goes by (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 02:13:52 PM EST
    Cos disturbingly looks more and more like the elderly Roy Cohn.

    And seems to think and act more and more like him.

    Parent

    Roy Cohn (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Zorba on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 02:33:35 PM EST
    Now there's an image for nightmares.
    Did you see Angels in America on HBO? If you haven't, you should.  It's excellent, but very, very disturbing.

    Parent
    Did Bill Clinton's (1.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Mikado Cat on Tue Nov 25, 2014 at 04:43:18 AM EST
    list of accusers ever rise to enough for a guilty opinion?

    As for Bill Cosby, I've learned not to venture opinion on guilt from media information.

    Parent

    Calling Out Bill Cosby's Media Enablers (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by lily on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 01:51:46 PM EST
    link

    Maybe a better question to ask about Cosby... (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Aspidistra on Tue Nov 25, 2014 at 10:59:56 AM EST
    ...Is why was this information buried by the Establishment for such a long time?  Who benefited from hiding the stories about Cosby from the general public for all these years?

    I heard about Cosby's inappropriate relationships with young women (obsessive 'mentoring', very controlling behaviors regarding their hair and clothing, putting these women up in apartments, and flying them all over the country to follow him on tour) in 1992, when I was in my early twenties and working as a clerk at a Buddhist bookstore on Newbury St in Boston.  The person describing these situations (Cosby's former butler) was like, "But no sex."  I was incredulous that there was no sex involved and told him so, but he was adamant that Cosby wasn't having sex with these young women.  Whatever.

    Fast forward 22 years and it is now all over the news.  I have to say I find it a bit rich to see all the pearl-clutching by journalists over these revelations; if these stories about Cosby were circulating freely before the internet even existed - so freely that even lowly bookstore clerks were hearing about how Camille turned a blind eye to it, etc., then I find it impossible to believe that the hundreds of journalists covering the entertainment industry over the last twenty-five years heard nothing.  

    I find it very believable that these journalists said nothing in order to protect their careers, and that this conspiracy of silence in exchange for celebrity access is what has been protecting Cosby all these years.  

    The Religion of Peace (1.50 / 2) (#11)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 10:45:30 PM EST
    In other news tonight, the Religion of Peace spreading its doctrine of love:

    Murdered because they weren't Muslim: Jihadists kill 28 people on Kenyan bus after asking passengers to prove they're not 'infidels'

    including little kids.

    You're implying here by omission that ... (4.88 / 8) (#14)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 12:03:54 AM EST
    ... Judeo-Christianity is somehow better and more peaceful, even though the actual historical record renders preposterous any such notion.

    While what happened in Kenya is indeed deplorable, there are an estimated 1.6 billion practicing Muslims worldwide. They are no more collectively responsible for that tragedy, than should all Catholics be held to account for the abominations that were the Spanish Inquisition and of more recent vintage, the Magdalene Laundries.

    You have no business painting all Muslims with the same broad brush, by falsely insinuating that they possess an inherently violent nature because of their faith. That sort of grossly ignorant mischaracterization of an entire religion and its faithful is due entirely to your own willful misinterpretation of basic Islamic tenets. And then, people like you will wonder aloud why Americans are so disrespected throughout the Muslim world.

    Please keep your religious bigotry to yourself.

    Parent

    Thanks for your response (1.00 / 5) (#15)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 06:30:40 AM EST
    That tells me all I need to know about you.

    Now go stuff it.

    Parent

    And your response tells us all we need to know (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Angel on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:12:51 AM EST
    about you.

    Parent
    Likewise (none / 0) (#22)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 12:36:48 PM EST
    And we have news from Kenya:

    Kenya bus attack: Military 'kills 100 Shabab militants'

    "I can assure you that those behind the attack did not even take their supper,"

    It's good news, right???

    Parent

    A serious question (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 12:53:23 PM EST
    Donald, if Uncle Chip's sarcastic "The Religion of Peace" comments, lifted from Bush and numerous other sources, had not been there, would you have objected to the news story?

    As I wrote, this is a serious question. What is acceptable criticism of the actions of the radical islamists that we have seen time and time again from ISIS, Hezabolah, Hamas and other such groups??

    I agree that we should always distinguish between the moderates and the radicals, but is it always necessary to try and establish a moral equivalency between modern Christianity and modern radical islamists by bringing up the Spanish Inquisition and other centuries old actions, or even the more recent actions of the Catholic Church? I mean such actions are routinely, loudly and continually condemned by members of the press and people of faith. Do we see such actions regarding the radical islamists? No, we do not. Instead we find that all criticisms must be carefully couched so as not to offend.

    So, would you ignore the proclaimed, obvious and unmistakable connections between groups like ISIS and Islam? At what point, given that there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, will it be allowable to say to them, "If there is only a very small percentage of radical islamists among you...... When will you rise up and stop their actions?"


    Parent

    Jim, you can take your terminal Islamophobia ... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 03:17:36 PM EST
    jimakaPPJ: "At what point, given that there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, will it be allowable to say to them, 'If there is only a very small percentage of radical islamists among you...... When will you rise up and stop their actions?'"

    ... and retreat to the same dark, dank and ugly cellar where your doppelgänger Uncle Chip presently resides, and both of you can hide behind the chain saws until Ted Cruz gives you the all-clear signal.

    But as long as we're going to hold the many to account for the vile actions of a few, perhaps you can enlighten us as a Southern man who was an adult in 1964, and tell us whether or not you ever rose up and tried to stop these guys' actions. Or perhaps we should also just similarly tar and feather all you white Southerners with the same broad brush you're presently using on Muslims.

    This is 2014, not 1964. At what point in your life will you finally cast aside all those irrational fears and hobgoblins about people who are perceived by you as different or strange? You've allowed your own emotional dust devils to gang up and envelope you like a toxic cloud.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Thank you, Donald (none / 0) (#33)
    by Zorba on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 04:16:37 PM EST
    I wish I could give you multiple 5's for that comment.
    Namaste.

    Parent
    Glad you asked (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 04:23:35 PM EST
    in 1964 I was in a far and distant place serving in the US Navy. My direct supervisor, as if it matters, was a black man. And he was not the first or the last.

    So your snotty claims are extremely funny and serve only to demonstrate that you can't answer my serious and sober question. You can only try and side step the serious point.

    If there are 1.6 billion Muslims then you would think that they would be quite capable of getting the very few radicals under control. That they have not raises some serious questions.

    Sooner or later they must be answered.

    Aloha your self, my dear Coast Haole.

    Parent

    Your question ceased being sober ... (none / 0) (#50)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 11:53:27 PM EST
    ... when you said what I highlighted in quotes in my response to you. Your anti-Islamic rhetoric has been repeatedly noted here. Bad things can happen when you deliberately pander to people's worst fears and most noxious instincts.

    Parent
    First of all I have always (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 11:20:39 AM EST
    carefully differentiated between the radicals and the moderates.

    And saying that we should not discuss the terrible things done by the radical islamists is beyond my understanding. Do you believe that denial is a proper response to evil?

    Would you have, as editor of the Daily Mail, not published the story, linked to by Uncle Chip, of the identification and killing of 28 non Muslims by the radical islamist group Shebab?

    Do you actually believe that if no one calls out the failure of the moderate Muslims to engage and stop the radical islamists that either group will change?

    Go the post just above and read what ISIS is teaching children. We cannot fix that. Only other Muslims can fix that.

    Parent

    We can't even fix (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 02:34:48 PM EST
    what belt-and-switch-swinging nitwits like John Hagee, James Dobson, and Ralph Reed are "teaching" children (social liberalism!)

    How do we begin to attempt to spread enlightenment in other parts of the world?

    All the U.S and other countries can do, when there are no other options, is put the intent-on-mayhem mad dogs down.

    Parent

    So you are saying that the (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 03:44:13 PM EST
    moderates cannot succeed and that the only option is killing the radical islamists and accepting the collateral damage - make that innocent civilians - as unavoidable.

    Perhaps I am overly optimistic but I believe that frank and open discussions of the problems and recognition of who must facilitate the changes will be successful if we persevere. And yes, part of that is putting the mad dogs down. But part of the solution is finding what causes them. And yes, western culture has had its share but what is unique in the background of ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas, Shebabm etc that floods the world??
     

    Parent

    What is it? (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:32:47 PM EST
    And yes, part of that is putting the mad dogs down. But part of the solution is finding what causes them. And yes, western culture has had its share but what is unique in the background of ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas, Shebabm etc that floods the world??

    What is it that's unique to the background of all of them?  You must be getting at something ... right there on the tip of your tongue, but for some reason you don't want to just say it.

    Oh, well ...

    I guess they don't really have something "unique in their background".

    Parent

    I don't know what it is (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 09:22:50 PM EST
    And if I did I would share it immediately.

    Some say it is poverty. But many of the actions in England and other places have been middle class. So while poverty may provide the foot soldiers the leaders have been middle class or above.

    Some say it is the conflict between Suni and Shia that has expanded and poisoned whatever good will that may have existed.

    Some say it is a renewed sense of nationalism, based not on previously defined boundaries but on boundaries and rule defined by the particular sect that has proven it can control the area in question.

    Others claim that the actions of the west in support of some leaders versus other leaders has caused the problem.

    Obviously a hatred of Israel is a common thread.

    Perhaps it is a bit of all of these.

    But, outside of your laughable they are "men," what do you think?

    Parent

    Wait, wait! I figured it out! (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:38:55 PM EST
    The thing they have in common that you won't say!

    They're all men!

    Is that it?  Did I get it?

    Parent

    Glad you asked (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 04:23:35 PM EST
    in 1964 I was in a far and distant place serving in the US Navy. My direct supervisor, as if it matters, was a black man. And he was not the first or the last.

    So your snotty claims are extremely funny and serve only to demonstrate that you can't answer my serious and sober question. You can only try and side step the serious point.

    If there are 1.6 billion Muslims then you would think that they would be quite capable of getting the very few radicals under control. That they have not raises some serious questions.

    Sooner or later they must be answered.

    Aloha your self, my dear Coast Haole.

    Parent

    Jim -- (2.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 07:01:15 AM EST
    He doesn't have a moral compass with which to find an answer to your question.

    The best he can muster up is moral equivalency or is it immoral equivalency:

    His only rationale is that because Catholics killed innocent people 500 years ago then that justifies Islamic jihadists today shooting 28 innocent men women and children in the back of the head on a bus in Kenya.

    Parent

    What I find interesting is that (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 11:52:42 AM EST
    he not only tried for a cultural moral equivalency in regards to the problems presented by radical islamists, he attempted to bring in the civil rights struggle experienced by blacks.

    But in a way he highlighted the differences. (I'll ignore the many vile acts by segregationists in such northern cities as Chicago and Boston.)The federal government acted. Eisenhower sent troops to Little Rock. Kennedy acted at Ole Miss and Johnson pressed the issue forward.  

    And it was the American moderates who rejected the segregationists and elected blacks and moved to integrate society.

    And no it wasn't easy and no it didn't happen as fast as it should have and yes some were killed. But all in all I think it was and has been the most remarkable cultural shift in the history of the world. I give credit to our belief in this:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    You can't claim to be a patriot and believe in the constitution without embracing those words.

    And that has not happened in the various countries with radical islamist problems.

    Parent

    Moderates elected the Blacks he says (3.67 / 3) (#70)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 01:06:05 PM EST
    And yet when a decidedly moderate Black is elected President, all the Jims of the world can do is fulminate about secret Marxists of questionable loyalty to the United States..

    Which is, interestingly enough,  exactly, precisely, how the hard-right attempted to slander and marginalize the influential civil rights leaders in the fifties and sixties.

    Parent

    And your point is what? (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 03:21:29 PM EST
    That the moderates who elected him have discovered that he was never moderate, something that anyone with any research into him, and his associates, prior to the 2008 election would have known.

    Of course his failed domestic polices and his totally disastrous foreign polices have shown that. Unfortunately it took the average voter 6 years to figure that out.

    Perhaps Gruber was right. You can lie to the voter and get elected and bills passed. But you can't do it forever.

    Parent

    Name one (none / 0) (#91)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 04:46:01 PM EST
    Name one Obama policy initiative that was an expression of extremism.

    One

    "Cmon Jimmy Bob, you can do it.

    Btw, Does your website tagline still say "There are no moderate Democrats"?

    You're shadow boxing with the ghosts from forty years ago. All 'a them peace freak extremists..

    lol

    Parent

    I would have been happy to (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:27:33 PM EST
    explain his many extreme positions. But since you demonstrate that you want nothing but to insult by your pejorative "Jimmy Bob" I will decline.

    BTW - "There are no moderate Democrats" comes from my many observations that in many media articles, we find Repubs id'd as "moderate."  But almost never do we find Democrats so id'd. Therefore there must be no Democrats. ;-)

    And no, that is no longer there. What you will find now is:

    "An Engineer is not a Scientist. He doesn't think like a Scientist. He doesn't have the same value-system in his judgments. But he's even more anti-mystic than the Scientist!"

    - John W Cambell, Jr - Editor, Analog Science Fiction Science Fact, December 1966

    Which explains why many scientists buy into the man made warming hoax and many engineers reject it. Scientists want to know why and believe. Engineers want to build.



    Parent
    You'd be happy to.. (none / 0) (#114)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 26, 2014 at 04:09:26 PM EST
    explain ONE. Enlighten us on just ONE of his extreme positions. That shouldn't be too hard.

    Then you can glide back, eel-like into whatever crevasse you go to when people are mean to you.

    Parent

    It's quite telling (none / 0) (#115)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 26, 2014 at 04:26:37 PM EST
    that you're now impugning scientists as a group. What have they done for us lately?

    What? Is your friend Campbell telling us that no engineers ever "believe" things on faith; that no engineers are ever Born-Again or ever suffer from delusionary mental illness?

    For instance, you believe that man who executes the mentally ill, Rick Perry, would make an excellent U.S Presidential representative to the rest of the world. If that isn't a delusionary belief, I don't know what is.

    Parent

    Here's what Arthur C. Clarke (none / 0) (#116)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Nov 26, 2014 at 04:30:17 PM EST
    had to say about scientists:

    If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong



    Parent
    Pasture Chip (3.00 / 2) (#69)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 12:53:20 PM EST
    The better question might be: has there EVER been a "religion of peace" anywhere, at any time in history? No there hasn't been; there are only peaceful people.

    And surely you won't be as stubbornly obtuse as your brother-in-arms below would be and nominate a religious/cultural tradition that was an integral ingredient in the crucible that incubated - less than 500 years ago - World Wars I and II, the creation of atomic, biologic and chemical weapons and a little unsavory episode otherwise known as the Holocaust?

    I'd say even after everything that's transpired of late, the Muslims still have some catching up to do. And until that time that they do, no one can really talk about any sort of "equivalency".  

    Parent

    Oh no (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 01:23:02 PM EST
    A bad review from the La Monde book review section..

    Parent
    FED Admits Banksters too Big to Jail Policy (none / 0) (#1)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 06:57:57 PM EST
    WASHINGTON -- The federal government until recently shielded big banks from criminal prosecution out of concern that convictions may damage the financial system, a top Federal Reserve official said Friday, explicitly acknowledging a policy long denied by the Obama administration.

    The admission came during a tense exchange between William Dudley, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio) at a Senate Banking Committee hearing meant to explore the cozy relations between federal regulators and the banks they supervise.
    House Repubs... (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 07:30:35 PM EST
    continue their War Against Science.

    link (none / 0) (#7)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Nov 22, 2014 at 09:41:06 PM EST
    On Keystone and the N.S.A., Clinton Remains Quiet

    Darren Wilson Grand Jury Case (none / 0) (#23)
    by Palli on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 12:42:53 PM EST
    McCullouh backtracks. There is NO agreement to release or reveal the Grand Jury Darren Wilson case evidence to the public if there is no bill of Indictment.  

    See document from Dir. of Judicial Administrations dated Nov.23
    https://twitter.com/RobertDEdwards/status/536584379376861185

    Missouri law re grand jury provides when the (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:13:57 PM EST
    judge may exercise discretion regarding releasing the grand jury transcript.

    Parent
    What a tangled web McCullouh weaves once (none / 0) (#64)
    by Palli on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 11:30:28 AM EST
    he practiced to deceive.

    Pros. Atty McCullouh has been saying for months explicitly Judge's agreement had been given. Lie.

    The evidence in a no bill was never going to be opened- it would be more damaging than an open trial. This indeed may have been the plan, a lawyer in St Louis has reported a Judge's brief to block release of GJ was seen a month ago.

    What is different now is the machinations of McCullouh's peculiar legal procedures are coming undone and he doesn't have the GJ wrapped and tied with ribbon.

    Meanwhile Darren Wilson is shopping his story around the networks for "exclusive" interviews and got married to another Ferguson police officer- 3 1/2 month honeymoon paid by the city.

    Parent

    McCulloch may not have known (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 05:22:35 PM EST
    the statute until after one of his deputies brought it to his attention.

    Parent
    McCulloch supporters are saying that (none / 0) (#95)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 05:39:20 PM EST
    he always premised his statements  with the need to get a court order (not quite true). For months, he has stated that he has obtained the judges agreement (evidently also not quite accurate).

    So I'm confused why you think he was not aware of the statute when he made these statements.

    Parent

    He is the elected head of a large (none / 0) (#107)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 11:15:00 PM EST
    public office. He must rely on those who brief him as to individual cases. Of course he could look it up himself, but that doesn't usually happen.

    Parent
    What in your opinion would a judge (none / 0) (#79)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 02:23:07 PM EST
    normally do regarding agreeing or debunking a statement by the Prosecuting Attorney while a GJ was in session unless she was specifically asked or put in a position where she had no other option.

    I know you might not have an infinitive answer but might provide us with an insight to what might be normal.

    Parent

    No clue at this moment. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Palli on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 04:06:20 PM EST
     Thinking of you and your region.

    Parent
    It is definite (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 04:21:55 PM EST
    Official announcement, the verdict will be announced sometime after 5 o'clock this evening.

    Parent
    I heard it wasn't him... (none / 0) (#27)
    by unitron on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 01:36:50 PM EST
    ...but a judge apparently putting the kibosh on it.

    I thought DAs ran grand juries and didn't know judges were directly involved.

    Seems odd said judge wouldn't have spoken up about this a lot sooner, like way back when it was announced that the evidence would all be released if they don't indict.

    Really stupid to let the public go on thinking it would be released if no indictment and then pull the rug out from under that here at practically the last minute.

    Pulling this now is practically the same as saying "We changed our minds, we're going to engage in a coverup after all."

    Parent

    One of the hoariest legal maxims (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Reconstructionist on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 03:28:21 PM EST
     is that courts speak only through their orders.

     Another is that courts don't issue advisory opinions and only adjudicate issues properly before them that are ripe for adjudication.

     I said some time back that unless MO has very unusual laws that the a prosecutor can't release GJ evidence or reports without a court order.

      The judge would not "speak up" because that would be improper. I highly doubt the court would issue an order which would only become operative in the event of a future contingency (that's pretty much the definition of an "advisory" opinion.

       I also question the propriety of even just the prosecutor discussing the matter with the judge in an ex parte dialogue.

       One of the fundamental reasons that GJ sessions are "secret" is to prevent the GJ proceedings  from being used to embarrass or distress an individual who is investigated without probable cause being found.

      The whole


    Parent

    Judge Whittington never agreed (none / 0) (#43)
    by Palli on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 08:20:04 PM EST
    9/12 Major WaPO Opinion piece by Dana Milbank calling the McCulloch GJ a "farce"

    On 9/17  a St Louis P-D reporter w/close ties to St Louis gov. leaks DW testified for 4 hours

    On 9/17 McCulloch first states evidence will be released if no indictment

    On 9/24 McCulloch says Judge overseeing the GJ agreed In the midst of heavy criticism about DW testifying. Interview w/KTRS
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPfSzOevfNA

    Timeline written by Ferguson Protestor

    Parent

    I wasn't saying that Judge Whittington... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by unitron on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 09:58:32 AM EST
    ...initially agreed and then "unagreed", but rather that it's curious that she would remain publicly silent on the matter for 2 months before getting around to saying that McCulloch's mouth wrote a check that...well, you know the rest of that old saying.

    Unless she's just now come out of a coma, I don't see how she could have escaped knowing that he'd said what he did, and I would think that she'd realize what a tremendous PR blunder it was to let his statement go unchallenged and uncorrected all this time, with the result being that it now looks as though the STL County justice system was trying to pull a fast one.

    Parent

    McCullough (none / 0) (#61)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 10:38:56 AM EST
    Could be in trouble if he lied. Seems to me he would be smarter than to not only say he would release the evidence, but that the judge had already agreed.

    No copy of such an agreement can be found as of yet, but this would have been really stupid of him if not true.

    Parent

    Agreed (none / 0) (#62)
    by sj on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 11:03:08 AM EST
    ...this would have been really stupid of him if not true.
    But then again, it would mean he is being consistent.

    Parent
    Please explain (none / 0) (#77)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 02:05:30 PM EST
    What kind of trouble will McCulloch be in? Who is going to cause him trouble?

    He made a political statement. The AA community never believed him and no one cared. His supporters have been using this to dismiss their claims as totally irrational. Doubt that they will back down now. They will just claim that he thought he had an agreement and really and truly wanted to release the information but the Judge wouldn't let him. Oh and BTW, of course he wouldn't lie because it would be a really stupid thing to do.

    Parent

    Actually what McCullough (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ruby on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 02:54:52 PM EST
    has repeatedly said was that he would obtain a court order from the judge to release the transcriptions and audio.

    It was the Court Administrator who was misquoted by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

    St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCullough has repeatedly stated that he would obtain a court order to unseal grand jury evidence, an unusual step that was seen as an attempt to defuse potential anger over the decision. In a St. Louis Post-Dispatch story on Nov. 23, St. Louis County Court Administrator Paul Fox said Judge Carolyn Whittington had agreed to grant the request.

    But Fox described the paraphrased quote attributed to him as "not accurate," in a letter released after the story, and said Whittington had not made an agreement to release grand jury evidence and that any requests "will require the Court to analyze the need for maintaining secrecy of the records with the need for public disclosure of the records."



    Parent
    Factually McCulloch put qualifiers on some but (none / 0) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 04:12:04 PM EST
    not all of his statements. In some others, he stated that there was no probably about it, the evidence would be released.

    McCulloch In an interview with the Washington Post on September 24th.,  McCulloch states emphatically (note no qualifiers at all):

    McCulloch: "Everything that the grand jury hears -- all the testimony and all the physical evidence -- will be released to the public if there is no indictment. People will be able to see everything regardless of what happens."

    According to this statement it is a done deal.

    "We've asked the judge to do that, and the judge has agreed that she will do that, if there is no indictment," McCulloch said during a radio interview with KTRS in September. "There's no probably about it, it will be released."

    You state as fact that Paul Fox said that the judge had granted the request. If you have access to a direct quote of what he said, I would like to read it. I read the St. Louis Post Dispatch article and can't find a direct quote from Mr. Fox stating that the judge granted the request anywhere in the article.

    Now would you like to give us your opinion on the question posed in my comment?

    What kind of trouble will McColloch be in?

    Parent

    He may not be in (none / 0) (#90)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 04:23:47 PM EST
    "Actual" trouble, but if he is lying about the judge (which I highly doubt), it certainly wouldn't make for a good working relationship with said judge or other judges on the bench.  I don't know Missouri bar rules, but there could be ethical issues.

    My guess is, he talked to the judge, they agreed to release the info, and he prematurely released this information without an actual order being in place.

    Parent

    The judge's letter clearly states (none / 0) (#92)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 05:22:07 PM EST
    that she had no such agreement with McCulloch.

    Her letter didn't just address that she hadn't yet issued an order. It stated that she has made no such agreement. It clearly states that prior to reaching a decision she would have to analysis the data and she does not have the information and has not done the required analysis.

    Nothing in her letter supports your guess.

    The judge didn't put any qualifiers in her letter. Do you think the judge  lied in her letter when she said she never agreed to release the evidence?

    Parent

    Don't mean to be an interloper, MO... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by christinep on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 05:29:57 PM EST
    But maybe the judge simply did not want nor allow herself to be boxed in to a then-premature decision about releasing documents.

    You and your community have endured sad times these months, turbulent times, and emotional roller-coaster days. Peace with you; prayers with you.  Take care of yourself, MO.

    Parent

    Thanks for the kind sentiments (none / 0) (#100)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:28:03 PM EST
    I thought the statement was very clear. It did not contain any qualifiers. If McCulloch's statements that the judge agreed back in September to release the evidence are true, she had already boxed herself in. I do not believe that Mr. Fox issued that  formal release without the judge's approval. Do you think that the Court Administer is lying in his written statement?

    Parent
    What letter from the judge? (none / 0) (#96)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 05:56:10 PM EST
    There is none.  She has not commented on this at all.

    The letter you are referring to is from the Court Administrator, who may or may not have been privy to all conversations the judge had with McCullough.

    Parent

    I stand corrected (none / 0) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:15:12 PM EST
    The letter was from her Court Administer. I seriously doubt that Mr. fox issued this official statement without it being reviewed by the judge. Do you really think the judge would let her Administer put out a false statement about this subject?

    Parent
    CLAYTON * If the grand jury has decided not to (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:18:11 PM EST
    CLAYTON * If the grand jury has decided not to indict Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson, St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert P. McCulloch's office is planning to release grand jury documents without seeking a judge's approval, a lawyer for McCulloch said Monday.


    Parent
    Thanks for the new info (none / 0) (#105)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 07:08:18 PM EST
    If McCulloch's legal team recently determined he did not need the courts approval then that changes things quite a bit. It does not clear up why he has stated since September that he had an agreement with the court but it definitely opens the door for information to be released.

    Don't understand how the Sunshine Law makes  Grand Jury testimony and evidence an open record but I expect we will see articles on this subject in the next day or two.

    Parent

    I really think (none / 0) (#103)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 06:40:30 PM EST
    The Court Administrator was correct in dating no order had been filed.  

    Parent
    The Tide has turned in StL county. (none / 0) (#65)
    by Palli on Mon Nov 24, 2014 at 11:34:46 AM EST
    McCullouh may stand alone in his own mess. Change is coming.  Enough? who knows.

    Parent
    GJ backtrack -- (none / 0) (#28)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 02:02:10 PM EST
    Actually I'm wondering if it's not a good thing.

    Just because a Grand Jury doesn't return a bill of indictment this week doesn't mean that if new evidence arises that the Grand Jury can't meet again at a later time and return a bill.

    There is no double jeopardy for the Grand Jury here.

    On the other hand if all the evidence is released to the public then Wilson can always argue that because it's been made public he can't get a fair trial.

    Parent

    Looks like (2.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Mikado Cat on Tue Nov 25, 2014 at 04:36:19 AM EST
    all the evidence or most of it is being released. Some of the witnesses may have risked their lives telling the truth, so hopefully they will get some protection.

    Wilson did no wrong, Brown attacked him in the SUV, and charged at him when pursued. Wilson fired, paused, then fired again when the attack continued.

    Parent

    You DO realize ... (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Yman on Tue Nov 25, 2014 at 06:12:50 AM EST
    Wilson did no wrong, Brown attacked him in the SUV, and charged at him when pursued. Wilson fired, paused, then fired again when the attack continued.

    ... that no indictment does not suddenly turn those claims into facts, ...

    ... don't you?

    Parent

    sad (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 04:32:24 PM EST
    Chart of the Day

    Video Drone footage (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 04:39:49 PM EST
    of the NY snowstorm

    Amazing

    I like the music (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 04:47:36 PM EST
    but about halfway through the music stops.  And it's even better.

    Parent
    It just looks really cold to me. (none / 0) (#48)
    by desertswine on Sun Nov 23, 2014 at 11:38:38 PM EST
    I hope that drone had its long johns on.

    Parent
    Saturday Night Open Thread | 115 comments (115 topical)

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