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About that NYT OIG-Clinton email story

Update [2015-7-24 12:30:17 by Big Tent Democrat]:

And BOOM:

David Nir writes about the NYT's dramatic walkback of its claim that two government Inspector Generals had made a referral to the Justice Department seeking a criminal inquiry of Hillary Clinton regarding her e-mails.

But the story gets worse for the New York Times. These memos (PDF) from OIG regarding the very same investigation demonstrate that in fact the issue is about how the State Department handled Clinton's e-mails AFTER she turned them over to State:

UNCLASSIRED June 29, 2015 MEMORANDUM FOR UNDER SECRETARY KENNEDY FROM:k. Steve A Unick, Inspector General, Department of State ~ I. Charles McCullough, III, Inspector General, Intelligence Community SUBJECT: Potential Issues Identified by the Office of the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community Concerning the Department of State's Process for the Review of Former Secretary Clinton's Emails under the Freedom of Information Act (ESP-15-05) [My emphasis]

The OIG is looking "the Department of State's Process for the Review of Former Secretary Clinton's Emails under the Freedom of Information Act." Guess who hs nothing to do with that? If you said Hillary, Clinton, you win a gold star.

Want more? How about this?

We are therefore providing this Memorandum as follow up to our June 19, 2015, Memorandum to you, to provide additional information supporting our concerns about the current process underway to review the 55,000 pages of emails prior to publication.

Again, you want to guess who's not involved with this process? Yep, Hillary Clinton.

Finally, how about this?

Under the circumstances, we continue to urge the Department to adopt the recommendations made by the IC IG in our June 19 Memorandum in order to enhance the current review system and to further minimize risk. The Department should ensure that no classified documents are publically released.

The IG concerns are about TOO much release of information. Not too little. And again you know who has no role in that? Yes, the answer remains Hillary Clinton.

< Thursday Open Thread | About that "classified" info in the Clinton e-mails >
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    Watching a Mourning Joe (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:48:46 AM EST
    they did a segment with

    ONE OF THE JOURNALISTS THAT BROKE THE STORY!!!

    It was pretty funny.  

    Yeah, we made some

    minor
    corrections.

    It didn't

    really
    change the story.

    Followed by how it changed the story.

    This is (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:54:04 AM EST
    how it always is and it's why it just bounces off the heads of people.

    Parent
    Gosh, MSNBC is so cool. (none / 0) (#83)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:13:55 PM EST
    I can hardly wait until they finally get rid of Ed Schultz's and Alex Wagner's shows, as promised, and replace them with another show starring -- (cue fanfare) -- Chuck Todd.

    I can't stand it. It's only 10:15 a.m. out here, so please down a few Cuervo shooters for me. The sun can't pass over the yardarm fast enough for me today.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Another (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:53:00 AM EST
    prime example of the Clinton rules at work.

    Especially as to how the Clinton Rules (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 09:32:52 AM EST
    are applied by the "experienced" New York Times.  In matters of the Press & the Clinton Rules, the sandbagger-in-chief NYTimes has no equal. 'Never could figure out the Times' peculiarity in reporting about Hillary Clinton.  BTW, several years ago, the said Times ran a story by Jeff Zelleny that purported to count the number of nights that the Clintons spent in their Chappaqua home together ... can't recall if they had a camera in the bedroom or footage in the stool.

    Maybe we ought to predict the timing of the next NYTimes ooh-ooh-maybe-this-is-wrong story about HRC.  Every several months...hmmm.

    Parent

    Yep - let's not forget it was the MSM (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by ruffian on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 04:01:55 PM EST
    including the NYT that ran furthest with the Clinton 'scandals' in the 90s. Fox helped but was not needed.

    Parent
    In keeping with the NYT (none / 0) (#18)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:35:10 AM EST
    I may have mis-identified the reporter who wrote the keeping-track-of-the Nights story some years back: I believe that the other half of the tag-team, Patrick Healey, was the author.

    Parent
    Mistaken I. G. (none / 0) (#5)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 09:35:36 AM EST

    Hillary said their was no classified material in any of her emails. Those I. G.'s must be mistaken.

    Parent
    Do you (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 09:39:47 AM EST
    realize that the most innocuous stuff gets classified these days?

    Apparently some people wanted stuff classified that she didn't think should be classified. I'm sure she would be glad to unclassify them.

    Parent

    Retroactively classifying the e-mails (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:08:31 AM EST
    after Clinton transmitted them to the State Department does not make Hillary Clinton culpable for the release of classified information.

    The department is now reviewing some 55,000 pages of emails. A first batch of 3,000 pages was made public on June 30.

    In the course of the email review, State Department officials determined that some information in the messages should be retroactively classified. In the 3,000 pages that were released, for example, portions of two dozen emails were redacted because they were upgraded to "classified status." But none of those were marked as classified at the time Mrs. Clinton handled them.

    In a second memo to Mr. Kennedy, sent on July 17, the inspectors general said that at least one email made public by the State Department contained classified information. The inspectors general did not identify the email or reveal its substance.

    The memos were provided to The New York Times by a senior government official.

    The inspectors general also criticized the State Department for its handling of sensitive information, particularly its reliance on retired senior Foreign Service officers to decide if information should be classified, and for not consulting with the intelligence agencies about its determinations.

    Hillary Clinton did not make classified material public; that was the State Department.

    Parent

    No, but (none / 0) (#31)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:14:37 AM EST
      very well might make her culpable for a host of other things.

      such as,  at least negligently, using a server that could be vulnerable to transmit, receive and store communications for which only a properly secured and monitored server should have been used.

      One might think, it would be obvious that if there are materials that need to go through extensive procedures before being released years after the fact to people employing official channels such as FOIA requests, that we probably would have wanted to do everything possible make sure, say Al Quaida or  Chinese hackers weren't getting them in real time

    Parent

    You don't (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:19:39 AM EST
    know anything about tech issues if you think her server was more vulnerable. My son's friend owns a tech company and says private servers like hers are way more secure than most other ones. A monitored server like you suggest is more vulnerable to hacking. So you're not really concerened about hacking as you suggest. You keep moving the goal posts around changing what is important and ignoring the facts of the argument BTD is making.

    Parent
    Oh well (2.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:21:55 AM EST
     if you son's friend says so all concerns are gone.

      that was sure easy.

    Parent

    You should (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:26:46 AM EST
    bone up on the issue. Any tech person will tell you the same thing. I guess you also don't know that the state department's email was hacked? You sure seem to lack knowledge on how this all happens but then I don't think you really care to learn.

    Parent
    Perhaps (none / 0) (#42)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:29:41 AM EST
      you might want to ask whether that is because targets which are known to contain data that is useful for some unauthorized purpose are much more likely to be targeted not because the security measures on such servers are inferior.

       

    Parent

    Surely (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:47:07 AM EST
    you don't think that her server was less safe than the state department? So far there's no evidence that hers was hacked yet it was proven that the state department's server was hacked.

    Parent
    No kidding...since we know that people (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:39:53 PM EST
    Who have security clearances had all their personal information hacked into.  Seems to me that when the hackers know where the information is stored, they just break in.

    Parent
    I'd certainly (none / 0) (#53)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:52:36 AM EST
      prefer to have much more to support that hypothesis than well, the absolutely nothing we currently have beyond her saying so.

      Didn't you write just a little bit ago that you like facts?

    Parent

    You like facts? Since when? (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 05:42:26 PM EST
    You offered absolutely none to support your theories that her servers were vulnerable.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:55:58 AM EST
    where's the evidence it was? There is none and frankly if it was don't you think her emails would be showing up somewhere? I would think those emails would be showing up like Sidney Blumenthal's emails showed up after he was hacked.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#58)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:06:34 PM EST
      had she:

     (a) never used the server in the first place

      (b) having failed (a) turned over the server in an unaltered state upon leaving office for the government to review in terms of data stored and forensic analysis.

     (c) having failed  (a) and (b) promptly turned over the server as it then existed  

      This might not be so troubling.

    Saying there is no evidence that security was breached (which is a different issue than whether the server was improperly used for government communication which it appears there may well be evidence) when the place that evidence might have been found was intentionally altered by human action done at her directive really asks for a level of trust (in terms of both her veracity and knowledge of the technical issues) that many people are not willing to afford Ms. Clinton.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:14:44 PM EST
    first of all she used a more secure server. Any tech person will tell you that. Now if you would have been happier with her using a less secure system then say so.

    The truth of the matter it is what it is. It's only troubling to you because you assume that there must be "something". Until the new rules went into effect after she left SOS this was SOP. So that's all you have. If it "troubles" you I'm sure you won't be voting for her and that is fine. Most people's eyes glaze over when you talk about this subject. It has no effect on their lives whatsoever and as far as transparency, no one is gong to be voting on that issue after Obama.

    Parent

    Reconstructionist, (none / 0) (#69)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:32:28 PM EST
    when you and ga6th finish (or, pass out from fatigue) I'd like to have a short question/answer chat with you, if you don't mind. I know why Ga responds instantly to every one of your comments (she can't help herself) but, what's your excuse for replying in the same vein? You know what her response will be. You two have used up several dozen valuable comment slots already, and trying to ask you a question, and get an answer, with all that flak flying back and forth is nye-on impossible.

    I "get" the jist of what you're implying here, but why is it necessary to say it 15 different ways when each of your comments is responded to in, virtually, the same exact manner?...........thanks

    Parent

    First (none / 0) (#73)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:49:19 PM EST
     (and this should be obvious) I am not the most patient person extant and become frustrated with willful duplicity (which I believe is acceptable under all scenarios) and sometimes with inability to understand (which I admit I should but don't always treat more gently or just ignore)

      I'm working hard to achieve the level of perfection ascribed to Ms. Clinton but, gosh darn it, not quite there.

    Parent

    You're assuming that hackers would know ... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:47:02 PM EST
    ... that Mrs. Clinton was using her own private server for her online correspondence, rather than accessing the feds'. Anyway, the State Department's internal e-mail system was recently breached by Russian hackers, so I don't understand what your point is here in singling her out for criticism on this issue.

    I really can't speak for BTD, but my own take on his post is that he probably believes -- as I admittedly do -- that this entire e-mail kerfuffle is a manufactured controversy which is motivated more by personal politics than actual substance, and that like Gertrude Stein's Oakland, there is no there there.

    Private servers have indeed generally proven more secure than federal government servers. The director of OPM recently resigned after the security of millions of federal personnel records were compromised by online intruders.

    Critics of Mrs. Clinton's use of a private e-mail account to conduct her business as Secretary of State are offering a merely theoretical argument about the ostensible security of the federal government's internal communications and records, which unfortunately -- given the recent and repeated breaches I've cited above -- has no real basis in reality.

    No doubt, now that this particular myth has been put to rest, those critics will quickly pivot back to the usual charges that both she and her husband are clearly hiding something, anything, and everything.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I am assuming (none / 0) (#89)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 04:01:07 PM EST
     that the fact she was sending and receiving communications from wide open systems with intermediaries unknown to her that the chance for hackers to learn she was using her private server was greatly increased.

      On what level is that possibly not negligent?

    Parent

    First off (none / 0) (#93)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 04:46:52 PM EST
    It was no secret she was using her account all during her tenure so saying
    the chance for hackers to learn she was using her private server was greatly increased.
    has no relevance.

    Secondly,

    she was sending and receiving communications from wide open systems with intermediaries unknown to her
    would still describe her communications even if she used only the  official server, probably more so. Having a private server, if done right, is the polar opposite of a "wide open system" and presumably she would still be using the same secure communication channels.

    Parent
    She's lucky you're (none / 0) (#99)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 05:43:12 PM EST
     not defending her.

      It's not really very helpful to her to proclaim it was easy for anyone to find out she was handling the martials this way.

     

    Parent

    I pity (none / 0) (#106)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 06:15:21 PM EST
    the poor hacker who is as slow as the people who discover a "problem" 6 years after the fact.

    Parent
    Really?? (none / 0) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 01:07:07 PM EST
     
    that Mrs. Clinton was using her own private server for her online correspondence

    I say that would take a look just because of who's it was.

    Parent

    Just a friendly reminder (none / 0) (#129)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 02:00:38 PM EST

    Just because of "who she is".

    We're a nation of laws, not men.

    Parent

    Just a reminder that the server (none / 0) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 02:46:35 PM EST
    has no gender....even in today's confused world.

    But it should have been whose it was.

    My bad.

    But you understood my point. We all do.

    Parent

    "We all do" ... again (none / 0) (#138)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:23:58 PM EST
    No, Jim.  Stick to speaking for yourself.  Most people think logically and use available facts.

    Parent
    Nope, your point that because it (none / 0) (#140)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:28:14 PM EST
    belonged to Clinton, it should be examined even though there is no evidence of misconduct on Clinton's part or that the server was compromised in any way whatsoever.

    My points stands.  Much as it pains me to remind you, the 4th Amendment covers everybody, even Hillary Clinton.

    Parent

    Actually your 4th Amendment rights (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 05:04:42 PM EST
    disappear when you enter into certain situations.

    And the 4 emails noted by the IG is all the evidence needed.

    Parent

    Like being arrested? (none / 0) (#152)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 06:17:18 PM EST
    Don't think any of them apply with regard to Hillary, Jim.

    As for the e-mails, here, one of the NYT reporters can't answer the simple question what wrong-doing, if any, can be attributed to Hillary Clinton.

    You gotta quit treating Foxz Noise as real news, Jim.  The results are there for all to see.

    Parent

    No no no (none / 0) (#153)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 06:19:21 PM EST
    encourage him to watch MORE Fox News. Fox news is destroying the GOP and turning the GOP into a cult of idiots. Between that and talk radio they're doing a pretty good job and think they should continue!

    Parent
    He hasn't realized that (none / 0) (#154)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 06:21:11 PM EST
    Reconstructionist flamed out today.  I don't think he ever will.


    Parent
    Man (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 06:31:12 PM EST
    that was ugly wasn't it? Full of sexism too. Like Christine said if you can't win an argument just start throwing mud.

    Parent
    The nature of the emails (none / 0) (#91)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 04:20:01 PM EST
    being questioned might make a difference.

    If they are routine and the State Dept is over-classifying, then the dispute is over nothing.

    I would be surprised if anything sensitive was sent via email.....

    Parent

    Ga, please, I don't think (none / 0) (#45)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:38:06 AM EST
    you understand Recon's allegations.

    Your responses to his comments all revert to some political angle. Recon is an attorney, and he's asking reasonable questions, IMO. There's no bigger Hillary supporter on this site than me, yet, I'd like to hear what he has to say.
    p.s. I have a few questions of my own, and, they're strictly legal, national security questions.

    We all know the politics involved here.
    Not everything the R's throw at Hillary is strictly political smear. If there's any chance that what she did steps, even slightly, over the line, they'll make a political bonanza out of it. And, no, the so-called "people" won't just brush it off as typical, Republican throwing crap against the wall.

    Thank you.


    Parent

    Recon (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:50:47 AM EST
    comes off as condescending and smarmy and keeps moving the goal posts around as BTD shows in his responses to him.

    So far what are the questions. The classification thing is something that is DONE after emails are sent not before. Even if she had used SOS emails it would have been the SAME process. And as we're seeing even the people who do the classifying in the state department disagree on what should be classified.

    Parent

    What questions do you have? (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 10:12:26 AM EST
    As an attorney (snark BTW)  I'd like to take a stab.

    Parent
    Hey, nice to see you, BTW (none / 0) (#130)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 02:16:02 PM EST
    Not that you, or anyone else, would have noticed, I've removed myself from this food fight. Notice how, simply mentioning I have a question is enough to bring out the stand-up comics here, drooling at the chance to display their ignorance (not referring to you, btw.)

    So, Recon keeps asking questions, or making comments, from a lawyer's point of view. Instead of responding to what he actually asked all the replies are political interpretations, or clairvoyant analysis guessing at what his "agenda really is?"  I just wanted to respond to him based on what I thought he really asked. And, just saying that illustrates the level of lunacy this thread has devolved into: For example, see comments # 24 & 25.  (And, btw, I always considered MKS to be kind of intelligent, usually.)

    But, I'm kind of surprised at you, BTD. I thought you had taken an extended leave from here because of the Mensa level of discussions you saw going on here. Maybe not, I don't know.

    Regarding Recon, just so you know, I don't like the guy, don't ever engage in a conversation with him, and don't intend to going forward, either. But, that's personal. The guy asks questions here on a hot topic; He deserves some answers, IMO. Instead, he gets the kind of crap you see going on here, the same kind of crap everyone here points to, and mocks regarding other Blogs.

    Anyway, thanks for the offer, I think I'll sit this one out.

    Parent

    So no questions? (none / 0) (#158)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 10:30:24 PM EST
    Ok, have a good one.

    Parent
    The fact that you don't realize that (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Anne on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 11:55:04 PM EST
    this is a turf war that has erupted between the State Department and the Intelligence Community Inspector General's office, and has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton, tells me that Recon's "asking questions" has worked brilliantly to make you think it does.

    Do you not think the original NYT headline and its initial reporting had everything to do with politics?  Have you watched a news broadcast recently?  Have you gotten from the media anything that doesn't make an effort to make this about Clinton?  Has any talking head you've seen in the last 48 hours taken the time or gone to the trouble of explaining that IGIC has taken issue with the State Department's classification process and standards?

    Yes, it came up because there were 55,000 e-mails that had to be reviewed before they could be made public.  And they were Clinton's e-mails.  But the media is acting as if this is all some nefarious, deeply evil act Clinton committed, and the IG review is really about revealing just how evil Clinton is.

    I thought you were smarter than that, Shooter.  Too smart to get sucked into Recon's Eddie Haskell act.  Too smart not to notice the comment Recon made where he quite clearly proclaimed his antipathy toward Clinton.  So don't act like it's just everyone else who's coming at this from a political point of view when Recon's got agenda written all over his comments.

    You got played, Shooter.  Don't make it everyone else's fault and let yourself and Recon off the hook.

    Parent

    Recon "is an attorney" (none / 0) (#94)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 04:49:42 PM EST
    Well, Glory Be!  Reminds me why I do not like most attorneys.....

    Methinks Recon is a troll....

    Parent

    That Recon is an attorney (none / 0) (#95)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 04:52:35 PM EST
    doesn't tell me squat or diddly or diddly squat.

    Parent
    You (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:24:03 AM EST
    realize that the SD email was hacked in 2012, every indication is that Hillary's server was extremely secure.

    Parent
    Recon does not want to realize it (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:18:13 PM EST
    Biased towards HRC as I am, what might be helpful here is for my legal colleague Recon to put his agenda on the table ... because there surely is one.  Frankly, as the earlier commentary here shows: When the "developing story" or whatever it is began to show that the matter really is centered on State Dept procedures, Recon jump-shifted with a focus easily translated as "but, but, but ...there must be something there ... ah, yes, we'll return to the issue of her personal server."  It does seem that as the press has added factual content--e.g., the request by the 2 IG personnel did not call for a focus on HRC, but rather on the State Dept's process for classifying documents "in connection with" the supplied HRC email documents; and, quite importantly, the "referral" is not a criminal referral for investigation--that Recon has decided to disregard the clarifications and return to the early spring brouhaha.

    Advance apology to NYShooter here as I repeat--again--that attorney & person Recon most definitely has an opinion/conclusion for which he now is casting about for any factoid that might be supportive.  

    As a onetime and longtime EPA attorney and manager who worked from time to time with DOJ on referrals and other issues, I can say with certainty that there is a big difference between an official criminal referral to DOJ and any other communiques or issues.

    Parent

    I told YOU (none / 0) (#77)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 02:31:02 PM EST
     directly and publicly a good while back that I do not support Clinton because I do not trust her integrity and judgment and that the only scenario in which I eould vote for her is the highly unlikely one where I belive the contest both in my state and nationally that failing to vote for her could conceivably result in whatever horrible candidate the GOP puts up.

      But, yes, only in comparison to such a horrible alternative would I even considering voting for her. I believe she has had a negative influence throughout her career and that she is the same untrustworthy, devious, self-centered person she has always been and that if anything she is now more closely aligned with the rich and powerful special interests that seek action opposed to what I consider good for the country.

      As I told you last time, feel free to copy this and paste it whenever you feel the urge.

     

    Parent

    Thank you for this response, Recon (none / 0) (#84)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:29:38 PM EST
    Sometimes, each of us has an antipathy toward another that may not be explainable except to another sharing that same perception.  Your verification of your personal negative feeling toward HRC is important to know in conversation because it explains your starting perception on individual matters-Hillary ... likewise, my acknowledged affinity for & advocacy for Hillary Clinton shows my starting perception in matters-Hillary.

     Something else: I'm guessing that you appreciate that individuals with pronounced leanings at the start of an issue typically retain-- look for ways, facts, bits & pieces to reinforce--the starting feelings/beliefs throughout. Yes, we can change our initial feelings; but, when those feelings are deep, it takes more than debate & discussion. For me, owning those feelings (as they say) is important ... it allows for a more direct discussion without pretext ... ergo, thanks for stating your underlying attitude about HRC.  

    Parent

    in terms (none / 0) (#85)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:36:04 PM EST
      of the actual issues involving the Clinton server, I can and do remain objective and analytical. Show me one thing I have written which you believe is unsupportable. I'll then tell you why it's supportable.

       In terms of pointing out the utter and complete disingenuousness behind the partisan attempts to deflect attention from what is important and lead people to ignore them for political rather than policy reasons, yeah I can kick back.

    Parent

    Your comments on HRC email (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:57:59 PM EST
     attempt to construct the old house-of-cards,  In many respects, the approach is hypothetical, what-if dominate.  Whether it is throwing jello or other stuff against the wall to see what might stick OR pointing out one fact on which there is consensus (primarily, that HRC had her own server) establishes nothing other than that one consensual fact.  

    Insofar as what you have written on this matter, what stands out is that you are searching for facts to fill-in-the-blanks that would support an otherwise mere assumption that there surely must be some there there.  May I remind you that since you appear to be writing as the protagonist of there-must-be-something-wrong-about-HRC's behavior, it is your task to establish that and to convince us of that.  As you know, the comments by others & by myself should tell you that it isn't a job for those who disagree with your feelings to disprove them ... rather, it is your job to provide the facts and clear argument that establishes improper acts.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#90)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 04:04:35 PM EST
     here's a hypothetical.

      If a branch manager was in a hurry to close up one day and in his haste left the vault open and  front door unlocked would his superiors brush it off just because he was lucky and no one walked in and stole anything?

      I find the suggestion that no harm, no foul applies here rather absurd.

    Parent

    Whole cloth (and all that) (none / 0) (#92)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 04:22:23 PM EST
    Now, now...you've mentioned that others deflect; and, that appears to be exactly what you are trying to do.  

    Parent
    huh? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 05:41:18 PM EST
     what exactly am I trying to deflect in what way?

    Parent
    If (none / 0) (#9)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 09:55:25 AM EST
    you read the story you would realize that the info in the emails is only now being vetted. It is only now being determined that some of it should be classified.

    Parent
    You seem to be missing the obvious point (none / 0) (#10)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:05:30 AM EST
      It don't take no Sherlock Holmes to deduce that such vetting should have been done at the time the communications were made and appropriate (and perhaps legal) means of transmission, receipt and storage employed.

    Parent
    Not to worry (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:08:19 AM EST
    Donald will call a press conference to bite the head off a chicken.   A mexican chicken, and this will be yesterday's news.

    Parent
    If something (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:32:57 AM EST
    was sent to her account that she didn't then forward to state you might have a point but otherwise you really don't have a point.

    The larger thing is that too much gets classified these days. I think state should unclassify those particular emails and release them.

    But again, I don't think the obsession about emails goes anywhere. People have been hearing oh, this is bad, bad bad and then nothing happens other than people yelling it is bad, bad, bad.

    Parent

    It (none / 0) (#19)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:37:08 AM EST
    would be impossible to vet the information in real time, I am not sure the SoS even has the ability to classify items and surely would not know what the other agencies would want classified. Probably all the government business that was conducted via her email had some level of sensitivity, so the idea that she should or even could have determined future classification status is absurd.

    Parent
    wow (none / 0) (#22)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:41:23 AM EST
    in fact, double wow!!!!

      Are you suggesting there are no options other than transmitting and receiving communications without any consideration of their sensitivity or the security of the means of transmission, receipt and storage and then waiting years for someone to review them to see if they just might require a security classification?

     

    Parent

    You are confused (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:25:12 AM EST
    about all this. There are many levels of classifcation. Highly classified is sent over cables. There are all kinds of lower levels of classification that comes through emails. There is way too much stuff that is labeled classified these days and there is no way to label these lower level things as classified beforehand. They have to go through a review process. And as you see with this whole issue there's disagreement among even the people who do the classifying as to what should be labeled classified.

    Parent
    Thats (none / 0) (#30)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:09:33 AM EST
    the way it always works, info has to be passed somehow some way before someone determines it to be classified.  There is zero evidence that she disseminated sensitive information inappropriately, it is only now that the emails must be released that the issue of classification must undergo more intense scrutiny.

    Parent
    No **** (kiding), Sherlock (none / 0) (#100)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 05:53:38 PM EST
    And it doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to figure out that's not evidence that any/all of those weren't done at the time.

    Next.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#104)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 06:09:30 PM EST
      you better take that claim up with Inspector General for the Intelligence Community. Or, maybe you can inform DOJ why the IGIC is mistaken.

    Parent
    No need (none / 0) (#105)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 06:14:26 PM EST
    No one said they were mistaken.  For the reading impaired, the OIG's referral of how the emails were handled after she turned them over to State isn't evidence of ANY wrongdoing by her - illegal, immoral, unethical or even fattening.

    Next.

    Parent

    Try again without the falsehoods (none / 0) (#107)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 06:23:02 PM EST

    Washington (CNN)--The inspector general for the intelligence community has informed members of Congress that some material Hillary Clinton emailed from her private server contained classified information, but it was not identified that way.

    Because it was not identified, it is unclear whether Clinton realized she was potentially compromising classified information.

    The IG reviewed a "limited sampling" of her emails and among those 40 reviewed found that "four contained classified [intelligence community] information," wrote the IG Charles McCullough in a letter to Congress.

    McCullough noted that "none of the emails we reviewed had classification or dissemination markings" but that some "should have been handled as classified, appropriately marked, and transmitted via a secure network."

    The four emails in question "were classified when they were sent and are classified now," spokeswoman Andrea Williams told CNN.

    McCullough said that State Department Freedom of Information Act officials told the intelligence community IG that "there are potentially hundreds of classified emails within the approximately 30,000 provided by former Secretary Clinton


    Parent

    You first (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:02:04 PM EST
    This is a FOIA fight over what information should be considered classified based on the review they conducted after the fact.  More importantly, even assuming (for the sake of argument) there was some material that should have been marked as classified at the time, there is no evidence she did anything illegal, immoral, unethical or even fattening.

    But keep swinging, Don Quijote ...

    Parent

    Whose job was it to classify - (none / 0) (#117)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:19:50 PM EST
    or not - all the e-mail communications?  Was Clinton supposed to do that each time she sent an e-mail, or received one?  Was everyone sending e-mail out of the State Department making those determinations?

    What about e-mails received?  When did those get classified, and by whom?  How did they get classified?  

    Parent

    The false Clinton headlines today were subterfuge (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:00:39 PM EST
    to mask the story of Obama going to Kenya today to destroy his real birth certificate.

    The digital NYT and NYT's facebook (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 01:03:59 PM EST
    page still contain this erroneus article.

    BTW, at DK the comments quickly devolved to in-fighting between Sanders supporters/Hillary-haters etc. Congratulations TL community.

    Grrrrrrr (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:15:31 PM EST
    The southern version of (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 08:14:23 AM EST
    "thanks for commenting" is

    "Bless your heart"

    Don't forget to add (none / 0) (#125)
    by Zorba on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 11:53:17 AM EST
    "Aren't you special?"   ;-)

    Parent
    It seems (none / 0) (#7)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 09:43:29 AM EST
     the longer term and far more important issue than the rewriting of the story and headline to the more ambiguous version than the original version expressly saying Hillary personally is the target, would seem to be unmistakable implication that documents on her private server either had improperly lesser security classifications than they should have considering the contents

     

    Thanks for commenting (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:30:00 AM EST
    It's good to get the Gowdy perspective as well.

    Parent
    Curt Gowdy? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:33:04 AM EST
    Always loved him on the pigskin calls.

    Parent
    Ahem (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:33:17 AM EST
    There is a logical corrollary (none / 0) (#16)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:33:39 AM EST
     to just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

      just because they are out to get you doesn't mean you haven't done anything wrong.

      Spin and deflect away. It's entertaining to me and you certainly have an audience among a few here willing to shut down all critical faculties when she is the subject.

    Parent

    You (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:40:14 AM EST
    know we like facts and frankly people don't seem to be using facts when talking about this issue. They seem like you to be falling for the well, if there's smoke THERE MUST be fire but you know sometimes it is just smoke. You apparently think innunedo means guilt. Okay. Fine. The rest of us like FACTS.

    Parent
    Thanks for commenting (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:40:29 AM EST
    And to be clear (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:47:45 AM EST
    your concern is not about a private server here, it is that Hillary Clinton was underinclusive in her classification of materials.

    You are arguing she did not hide enough information

    Parent

    no--- (none / 0) (#24)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:51:43 AM EST
     ---and I know you are not as clueless as your marks here.

      I am arguing that if the assertions being made are true she was at the very least inexcusably negligent in using that private server to receive and transmit coimmunications without proper consideration of their sensitivity and the need to protect and properly preserve them.

    Parent

    But that has nothing to do with (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:58:27 AM EST
    the issue of classification.

    There is no charge that the emails were accessed.

    Indeed, the charge is the State Dept is NOW releasing classified information in response to FOIA requests.

    Your original charge was Clinton should have classified ore info in the first instance.

    To wit, as I stated, she did not hide enough information.

    If that is no longer your concern, please say so.

    Parent

    Ya know (none / 0) (#36)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:25:10 AM EST
     certain circumstances can raise multiple serious concerns. I'd venture that this one raises more than one doesn't make it less important.


    Parent
    So my original comment (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:28:35 AM EST
    was correct? Why did you protest it was not?

    Parent
    i don't follow (none / 0) (#48)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:44:21 AM EST
     what point you are trying to make.

    Parent
    IDK (none / 0) (#49)
    by ding7777 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:46:11 AM EST
    the original issue was that HRC is the one who selectively culled which emails to turn over to State before wiping her server.  HRC's defense was that none of the emails on her server were classified.

     Now, if State is retroactively assigning some of those emails as "classified" , HRC's defense of "no classified" emails on her server becomes null.... well you can see where the anti-Hillary/Benghazi crowd is going with this

    Parent

    and (none / 0) (#51)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:50:24 AM EST
     why should no one else follow that rather obvious path (among others)?

      Id there ANY reason not to, other than it might cast Hillary in a more negative light than her most ardent sycophants would like?

    Parent

    There are several points I think you're (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 01:12:55 PM EST
    missing.

    First, there is the immediate point of the sloppy, inaccurate reporting being done by the NYT that originally contained so much false information it does cause one to wonder what its agenda was.

    Second, if the NYT can now be believed, the issue the IG's office has is not with how Clinton treated her e-mails, but how State treated them.  Once in State's hands, and subject to FOIA requests, it was up to the State Department to vet them before making them public.  In that process, it decided to retroactively classify communications that Clinton did not consider to be of such a sensitive nature when she sent or received them.  If that's your issue - Clinton's judgment with respect to information that affects national security and foreign policy - I don't know how you have that discussion if you're not privy to the totality of her communications.  But I think you'd need to distinguish between material that really is sensitive to the operation of foreign policy, and information that the government just doesn't want people to know about because it's embarrassing in some way.

    Should State Department policies or methods come under scrutiny?  Of course.  Does Clinton having been the Secretary of State make those policies her responsibility when she held that position?  Again, yes.  But having turned over her e-mails to a John Kerry-led State Department, how much responsibility does Clinton have for what State did after she left?

    Third, e-mail is not the exclusive method for conducting State Department business.  Classified, highly secret and sensitive communications were and are transmitted by cable.  I'm sure they also have secure telephone lines, and of course, there's always the face-to-face meeting.

    Fourth, with respect to the security and integrity of Clinton's private server, I have to believe that it was vetted, approved and was subject to more monitoring and care than the monolith that is the SD system could ever be - you know, the one that was hacked.  

    Finally, being able to parse and identify the issues doesn't make me a Clinton sycophant; I'm not the biggest fan of Clinton's to begin with, so don't try to put me in that group, please.

    Parent

    When FOIA requests are made, (none / 0) (#66)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:23:58 PM EST
    it is usually the responsibility of the receiving federal department/agency THEN to determine whether the document(s) can be released or should/must be withheld.

    Parent
    No, what they are saying is that they should (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 02:51:35 PM EST
    have been originally classified and treated as such.

    Parent
    There was no charge that the info (none / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 01:14:19 PM EST
    Petraeus exposed was accessed by an enemy.

    Parent
    There's no proof that (none / 0) (#128)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 01:57:42 PM EST
    Clinton's private server was ever hacked or was accessed by unauthorized individuals, either.

    Parent
    Neither was the classified info Petareaus (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 02:55:54 PM EST
    had.

    Let me explain something to you that you understand but don't want to admit.

    If someone mishandles a document that has classified information in it they are in deep dodo.

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

    Parent

    Let me explain something to you (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:35:02 PM EST
    Petraeus was charged with violating 18 U.S. Code § 1924.  Read the statute and see if you can figure out why it doesn't apply to this situation.

    I bet even you can figure it out.

    Parent

    Petraus (none / 0) (#135)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:08:13 PM EST
    handed over secret information to his girlfriend. Hacking was never a question with regards to him.

    And you don't understand what is going on here obviously but not that you care to learn the facts. It's all about desperation from the GOP.

    Oh, good lord then according to your standards Jim the entire Bush Administration should be in deep doo doo. Are you going to advocate for them to be arrested and tried?

    Parent

    If you want to punish Hillary (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:15:53 PM EST
    the same as Petareus that works for me.

    But I will specify that I trust him a million times more than I do Hillary.

    Parent

    No one (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:25:15 PM EST
    cares what you think about Hillary least of all Hillary. And I said the do you advocate putting the entire Bush Administration in jail? What is your answer for that? Using your standards they should be.

    Parent
    The only thing even the (none / 0) (#143)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:42:26 PM EST
    NYT reporter could say was that Hillary received classified info in some e-mails that wasn't labeled as such.

    Now, tell us how somebody is in deep doo-doo for receiving classified info in an e-mail that was not labeled as such, and wasn't immediately made aware that it was classified.

    We all know you want to get Hillary, by hook or crook.  The question is how far are you going to try to explain away the facts of this case to successfully make your point.  

    I don't think you can.

    Anyhow, this is it for the day.  

    After a while, crocodile.

    Parent

    et al (none / 0) (#145)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 05:00:48 PM EST
    GA, GW and his bunch ain't running. Hillary is.

    Yman, repeat after me YET.

    Mordiggian - Go back and read the points made by Reconstructionist.

    Or don't. As Gump said....


    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 05:17:22 PM EST
    Jim you said she was in deep doo doo but apparently not now according to you.

    Do tell me if it's such a big deal why is Trey Gowdy running from her? He doesn't want it to be public and keeps moving the dates.

    Face it. Gowdy has been lying to you this whole time.

    Parent

    "It is easier to fool people (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 05:36:07 PM EST
    than to convince them they have been fooled."

    Mark Twain

    Parent

    Jim (none / 0) (#151)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 05:48:22 PM EST
    Repeat after me - EVER.

    Hey, ... how's your President Romney prediction working out for ya?

    Parent

    Your agenda is showing, Reconstructionist (none / 0) (#26)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:54:46 AM EST
    Only mine? (2.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:25:58 AM EST
      That's BTD level funny.

    Parent
    I've never hid my bias (none / 0) (#67)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:26:30 PM EST
    It does occur to me, however, that you might want to review the several FOIA procedures AND the process for release/denial of release that comes into play WHEN a FOIA request is made.

    Parent
    It is the molehill problem ...and worse (none / 0) (#25)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:52:07 AM EST
    The NYT initially mischaracterized the issue--perhaps, because the newspaper wanted to make hay of nothing.  Then, with the first re-write, we start to see that the matter is a potential concern about how the State Dept procedures regarding classifying documents.  

    While I don't want to minimize the significance that should be attached to the various federal departments' development of & implementation of acceptable security procedures--and, btw, IGs routinely review procedures with an eye toward upgrading procedures in place at all departments & agencies--the matter here really involves the focus on the State Dapt itself and it's procedures AFTER Hillary Clinton transmitted data to the department. Not surprisingly, tho, some are trying to convert the molehill into a mountain.

    Parent

    Again, missing the larger point (none / 0) (#28)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:00:31 AM EST
     If the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community believes State is now not being meticulous enough in vetting and protecting sensitive information it retrieved from Hillary's private server, that necessarily implies that Hillary's private server was used for communications of such materials and that it had not been properly classified then as it should have been.

      Yes, some of those memos are bureaucratic infighting--

    "your server isn't good enough"

    "yes it is"

    No, it's not"

    but there IS a much bigger issue and it's folly to think it will evaporate if the response is oh they're all being so mean to poor little Hillary again.

    Parent

    Do you have reason to believe that (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:28:21 AM EST
    if her e-mails had been sent and received on government servers that this vetting process would have been more real-time than it has been with regard to the private-server communications?

    What I'm reading seems to suggest that even government server-produced e-mails would be subject to retroactive classification - it's the cart-before-the-horse decision by State to release some portion of them before they were vetted that is the problem.

    This retroactive classification happens all the time, it seems to me.  And, frankly, it defies credulity to think that all the documents the government has archived and stored have already been thoroughly vetted.  Maybe they're supposed to be, but I read somewhere that they are so far behind it's impossible to clear the backlog.  This is the reason why, when a FOIA request is made for copies of government documents, they don't just release them, they have to review them and often classify or heavily redact them at that point.

    Parent

    All? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:33:03 AM EST
     almost certainly not.

      but one would like to hope that communications by the SOS herself  concerning sensitive matters of foreign policy receive more careful real-time scrutiny than most.

    Parent

    Anne (none / 0) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43:04 AM EST
    you are trying to change someone's mind who constantly moves the goal posts. Once you dispove one thing another thing all of a sudden pops up.

    Parent
    No (2.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:28:33 PM EST
      I'm not moving the goalposts.

      the gullible (or disingenuous) among you are acting as if 2 things that can exist simultaneously are mutually exclusive.

     Her actions obviously could both impede the collection, archiving and retention of official communications and subjected those communications to unauthorized access. both are important matters that deserve examination.

       This is so patently obvious that I know BTD knew it all along.  Some of the rest of you should be able to grasp something so elementary when it is explained. The inability to do so is either feigned for political purposes or really really sad.

    Parent

    It's (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:15:55 AM EST
    not going to evaporate because the GOP is going to keep talking about it. Facts or whatever don't matter with them or you. It's all about creating "smoke" nothing more nothing less.

    The question is whether anybody is going to give the GOP any credibility on this issue when two of their leading candidates have actually broken the laws with regards to emails. Me thinks they are trying to bring Hillary down to their level but it really does not help their candidates since their stances are being so poorly received.

    Parent

    Is your concern with the device or the process? (none / 0) (#43)
    by vicndabx on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:29:49 AM EST
    Seems to me your concern as noted above would be an issue of she hadn't used her own server.

    What's ironic is this wouldn't be an issue; inadvertent release of classified emails, if folks weren't so hot and bothered to be all up in her emails.

    Parent

    My concern (none / 0) (#47)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43:12 AM EST
     as should it be for all is with the entirety of the circumstances and everything that did occur or could have more easily occurred because of her decisions..

         

    Parent

    I hear what you're saying (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by vicndabx on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:02:25 PM EST
    but as someone familiar with tech, none of this stuff is 100% secure. Indeed, a server secured locally by onsite secret service you can unplug is better than one in some far off room in a rack with multiple government employees having access.

    Parent
    No vicndabx (2.00 / 1) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 02:59:33 PM EST
    Servers are accessed over the Internet.

    That government server has all kinds of Fire Walls and other security devices. We have no idea as to what Hillary's private server had.

    Parent

    ... about how secure the State Dept.'s internal communications system was during the period in question:

    CNN | March 15, 2015
    Sources: State Dept. hack the 'worst ever' - "
    Overlooked in the controversy over Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server, is the fact that suspected Russian hackers have bedeviled State Department's email system for much of the past year and continue to pose problems for technicians trying to eradicate the intrusion. Federal law enforcement, intelligence and congressional officials briefed on the investigation say the hack of the State email system is the "worst ever" cyberattack intrusion against a federal agency. The attackers who breached State are also believed to be behind hacks on the White House's email system, and against several other federal agencies, the officials say."

    So, Jim, you were saying ...?

    Parent

    you make a good point (none / 0) (#62)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:18:40 PM EST
     obviously the breadth of knowledge of existence and numbers with access increase security risks.

      The more widely known it is that a location exists that contains something someone might want the greater the risk such a someone might breach even the best security systems and protocols.

       My though on that would be that a person who realizes that would not use the same damn server that contains sensitive government information to communicate personal messages to people using wide open systems. That would seem logically to run the risk that more someones will learn of the existence of the location and be curious about what might be found there.  

    Parent

    Could have (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:00:37 PM EST
    would have? might have? Sheesh.

    Parent
    "entirety of the circumstances... (none / 0) (#115)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 09:01:41 PM EST
    and everything that did occur or could have more easily occured..."

    That's a pretty ambitious job description, Recon.  You'll have a better chance at your chosen career (Concern trolling) if you limit your inquiry to something that actually did occur.

    Parent

    Partial nod to you, Reconstructionist (none / 0) (#70)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:35:53 PM EST
    ... only in that there may be theoretical issues here.  I suspect that it would take much much more than what-if-in-theory-it-could-be-said-that to amount to more than a partial molehill.

    As for myself, I would find it helpful to know the specific wording of any transmittal to DOJ. The level of transmittal--even of some sort of non-criminal transmittal, as the J. Harwood comment notes at the outset now of this thread--in terms of signature is always useful to know ... e.g., the level of delegation is an indicator all its own.

    Parent

    I would be STUNNED (none / 0) (#76)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 01:23:12 PM EST
     if this results in any criminal prosecutions let alone of Clinton-- even if the Republicans win, and not just because of the SOL.

      Nor, without FAR more than has been revealed would I endorse prosecution.

      I have rather carefully used "if true" and "at least sloppy and negligent" throughout the discussion.

      I am a lawyer and at least by the standards here, try to be objective and non-partisan in my approach to issues.

      I believe this would be a very important issue worthy of close scrutiny even if Hillary was not running for President, but I sure don't think it should get less scrutiny because she is. Indeed, there are at least hints out there that we have issues that pre and post date Clinton and suggest there are systemic issues arising in the way our government officials have been permitted to communicate and in how such communications are identified, classified, retained, archived and made available or restricted with consistent and sensible procedures.

    Parent

    Once again, dear Reconstructionist (none / 0) (#80)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:03:43 PM EST
    you reveal a POV that is not without bias.  As an attorney myself, I understand full well what is required to make a case in federal court...for one thing, I wrote or managed case referrals to main Justice for many years.  So, I also understand your demurral in the more than speculative & fantasy area of any enforcement/prosecution against whomever in this situation.

    You have a lot of pre-set negative emotion when it comes to HRC. That is your prerogative, of course.  I must add, in any event, that the fact that you FEEL that way doesn't make it so ... see, e.g., D. Issa.

    Parent

    Show me the beef (none / 0) (#101)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 05:57:37 PM EST
    just because they are out to get you doesn't mean you haven't done anything wrong.

      Spin and deflect away. It's entertaining to me and you certainly have an audience among a few here willing to shut down all critical faculties when she is the subject.

    Nor it it evidence of wrongdoing.  But it's entertaining to watch a few here who are willing to shut down all critical faculties and production of facts/evidence when it comes to making specious claims about her.

    Parent

    It's (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 06:06:21 PM EST
    Yep - Jon Stewart's take (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 06:08:57 PM EST
    The "Question Mark".

    What?  I'm just asking ...

    Parent

    sent before completion (none / 0) (#8)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 09:44:48 AM EST
     or had no classification when they should have.

      At best, if true, that is inexcusably sloppy and negligent.

    Parent

    Perhaps (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 10:34:09 AM EST
    then conservatives will quit quoting the NYT and some kind of unimpeachable source on all things Clinton.

    Parent
    The Virtues of Being Apricot (none / 0) (#59)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:12:55 PM EST
    oops, wrong thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:21:12 PM EST
    delete please. damn, i must be out of it today

    Parent
    Poem for Mrs. Dadler (none / 0) (#63)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:19:29 PM EST
    i)
    within this nest
    the seeds of eggs
    were incubated on beds
    of dry grass turned green,
    reversing a summer.

    ii)
    youth with legs fresh as crickets
    rubbing out mathematical code.

    iii)
    the animal poem is a public service,
    an inherited staircase, a spiral syndrome;
    it slithers between biology and delights
    rising up steeply as weeds,
    strong as the thirst
    of a consistently dry tooth.


    oops, wrong thread, delete please (none / 0) (#64)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:20:44 PM EST
    sorry.

    Parent
    It's not in the wrong thread ... (none / 0) (#87)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:56:32 PM EST
    ... if you rededicate it to Mrs. Clinton.
    ;-D

    Parent
    When will CNN understand this? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 12:37:39 PM EST


    This (none / 0) (#78)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 02:54:09 PM EST
    article is helpful to keep track of the whens and whys the story has shifted.

      Personally, I'd be more concerned about DOJ leaking and being inconsistent than the media confusion.

    Dennis (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 02:58:14 PM EST
    Rodman endorses Donald Trump?

    Parent
    Well, at least we're amused (none / 0) (#81)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:04:39 PM EST
    some of the same things.

     I posted that in the open thread.

    Parent

    Oh , i see, wrong loinkk here (none / 0) (#82)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 03:09:48 PM EST
     I intended this one

    Parent
    Arrrgh (none / 0) (#96)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 05:27:59 PM EST
    CNN is flogging the email horse, again, and the beat goes on. Sure they weasel out by throwing in a "nuanced" or a "technically not classified" into the heavy "trouble for Hillary mix". The Clinton rules, rule, my apologies to weasels.


    Someone (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 06:27:48 PM EST
    who actually looked at the documents takes apart the NYT on their article and it's brutal link

    In the span of one day the whole thing has blown up.

    actually (none / 0) (#109)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:04:13 PM EST
    He stufoliosly avoids dicussing the portion I referenced above in which ICIG stated emaila that were classified when communicatrd (using her server) and because of that should not be released now because they are still classified but CONTINUED to lack proper marking.

    The argument that State has made errors processing emails belatedly received from Clinton in no way means Clinton did not fail to prevent classified information frombeing communicated and storrd on the server. Obviously it supports theclaim that she did use the servet fotr classified communications despite her previous denials.

    Any blowing up isnot going tosplatter whom you want to see take a hit.

    Parent

    You are (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:08:02 PM EST
    not understanding what is going on. This is a turf war. State does not think they should be classified but the IG does.

    Parent
    GA, also cited (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 11:39:08 AM EST
    this article in the next thread.  Did not see this earlier.  It is a good explanation and comment.

    Parent
    Wishful (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:22:53 PM EST
    thinking on your part that it's going to take her down. She's been through tougher things than email and she keeps on going. I know that is disappointing to you but you must really either want a Republican in office or something but apparently taking her down is something you see as necessary to obtain your goal of a Republican white house.

    Parent
    I am (none / 0) (#111)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:11:37 PM EST
    guessing Tequila. Making my Bud and Bud Buzz seem tame. Take a hit makes sense, though.

    Parent
    phone actually (none / 0) (#113)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jul 24, 2015 at 08:18:27 PM EST
    But some of you are enough to driveanyone to dribk.

    Parent
    if the emails in question (none / 0) (#120)
    by ding7777 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 08:48:34 AM EST
    lack proper markings, then the IC made this determination retroactively (which, btw, State still disagrees with the the IC's conclusion)

    Parent
    But, (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 10:39:41 AM EST
      would not the OBVIOUS point is the determination had to be made retroactively because the proper determination was not made at the time? As has been pointed out documents are classified based on the contents not the marking. Failire to mark does not mean they are not classified; it means someone has failed to mark them classified and handle them accordingly.

      It would be far wiser to acknowledge that mistakes were made, state the mistakes were neither intentionally made or concerning matters of such extreme sensitivity that it should have been obvious and concede that in retrospect better procedures could have been and should have been employed. Had she done that back in march this issue might be over for everyone other than the attack dogs on the right.

      The, evidently reflexive, stonewalling, deflection, playing the martyr card and even crossing the line into public statements that have been shown to be wrong (she once claimed "no classified" material) is wrong on every level including politically. When someone wants to shoot you down don't provide him with a loaded gun.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#123)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 11:05:21 AM EST
    because according to state they WERE NOT classified. Now the IG is going behind disagreeing with them. This is political BS which apparently you are either unable to see through or deliberately trying to be obtuse about it.

    Parent
    GA, what you are saying is that anyone (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:10:10 PM EST
    can reveal government secrets that, for whatever reason, have not been correctly classified and reveal them either through ignorance of their classification or of the law regarding them.

    There is no reason to believe Hillary vetted them herself or had staff do so. In the military that gets you put in prison, or at best, a Bad Conduct Discharge.

    It's obvious. She doesn't think the rules apply to her.

    Parent

    You always re-/misstate what others are saying (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 03:41:02 PM EST
    Easier to argue against straw arguments instead of REAL ones, huh, Jim?

    Like fighting in an imaginary war instead of a real one ...

    Parent

    If they contained information that (2.00 / 1) (#147)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 05:07:40 PM EST
    was classified or should have been classified then the facts speak.

    She can run but she can't hide.

    Parent

    "Hide"? (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 05:46:19 PM EST
    Who needs to "hide" from your silly fairy tales?  

    BTW - You DO talk about "hiding" ... a lot.  Must be hard being scared all the time.

    Parent

    If the information *was* classified... (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by unitron on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 07:44:52 PM EST
    ...then did whoever provided her with it in the first place include that classification?

    If it "should have been classified", whose call is it to make that it should have been? Why is it on her to know for absolute certain that whoever provided it to her screwed up?

    At some point she has to be able to rely on at least some of the other people in the government also being competent, especially in areas where they are the experts on whom she is relying.

    Parent

    She was the boss (2.00 / 1) (#164)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 08:08:28 AM EST
    Are you claiming she was too dumb to realize what should be classified??

    Hmmmm. You may have something there. Let's use for a bumper sticker.

    "Elect Hillary! She's stupid!"

    Parent

    If (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 10:07:51 AM EST
     you really understand the current story, it really breaks down to the experts being "too dumb" to agree on what should be classified now, years after the fact, with weeks of time to consider the issues.

    By nature any high level executive deals with sensitive info, so to think that they could possibly vet every email that they sent, replied to or forwarded and remain productive is ludicrous.

    But you did give me an idea for a bumper sticker for man Trump:

    "Elect Donald! Everyone else is Stupid!"

    Parent

    Jim is convinced that Hillary (none / 0) (#167)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 10:36:53 AM EST
    Is hiding something in the e-mails that were sent to her with unmarked classified information, and that the appropriate fishing expedition of them will nail her once and for all. 👽

    Parent
    Speaking of "too dumb" (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Yman on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 10:58:56 AM EST
    "The boss" - heh.

    Bush.

    9-11.

    Parent

    Really the boss of a giant entity (none / 0) (#165)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 08:57:58 AM EST
    like State Department should have at her fingertips all the info about what is classified info and what isn't?

    Thanks for the lesson in logic, Jim.

    Parent

    She was boss of State (none / 0) (#168)
    by ding7777 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 10:53:29 AM EST
    not the other agencies who are requesting re-classification after the fact

    Parent
    the onus should be on (none / 0) (#163)
    by ding7777 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 08:07:36 AM EST
    this other government agency which failed correctly mark the document classified to begin with

    Parent
    Or, perhaps... (none / 0) (#156)
    by unitron on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 07:38:41 PM EST
    ...the proper determination was made at the time, and an improper determination is now being made retroactively.

    Parent
    Piers Morgan reviews HRC Biopics (none / 0) (#118)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jul 25, 2015 at 08:01:22 AM EST
    on SNL.

    SITE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 26, 2015 at 07:37:03 AM EST