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Hillary and Bernie Vie for Brooklyn

So it took Hillary five swipes to get her metrocard to work in the New York Subway. At least she had a card. Bernie thought subways still use tokens.

But in an interview with the editorial board of The Daily News this month, Mr. Sanders bungled a question about the New York City subway. “You get a token and you get in,” he said, even though tokens were long ago replaced by MetroCards. The tabloid also marked Mr. Sanders’s turn toward New York with a cover story this week attacking his position on granting immunity to gun manufacturers.

[More...]

Which is relevant only to show Bernie is not a New Yorker anymore. He happened to be born there. But his adult life has been in Vermont.

“Bernie’s life has been Vermont,” Mr. Byrnes said between phone-bank calls at Mrs. Clinton’s headquarters. “He was factually born in Brooklyn. I don’t think he devoted much of his life, especially his professional life, to Brooklyn. I think it’s basically an accident of birth. We are all born somewhere.”

Who's a New Yorker? My parents and aunts and uncles were born and raised in Brooklyn. My great-grandfather and all four grandparents spent their adult lives in Brooklyn. I was born in Queens and moved to Westchester at age 5 where I lived until I started law school in Denver. Is it once a New Yorker, always a New Yorker? Or is it like Colorado, where "native" means born here and even after 45 years, you'll still not a native Coloradan but a transplant? [Added: I should clarify I never actually lived in Queens and I have no idea why I was born in a hospital there -- my parents lived on Long Island at the time, which is where we lived until I was 5.)

My parents left Brooklyn when my father returned from WWII. They left New York for good in 1968. After a decade in Puerto Rico, another in Florida and two decades in Colorado, they were still Brooklyn, and remained so until they died. Their politics were the same as mine -- when I would mention that to them, they would respond, "Where do you think you got it from?". (A reminder that my leftist politics of the sixties were not original with those of us who grew up in the sixties.) Bernie has a lot of these same positions on issues -- but he certainly didn't invent them, they were very widely-held positions in Brooklyn, and still are.

Even if once a New Yorker, always a New Yorker holds sway, I don't think Bernie has the "home court" advantage. Hillary does, because even though she's a transplant, she represented New Yorkers in the Senate for years.

So don't let the accent fool you -- Hillary is far more New York than Bernie.

Some things worth noting:

A month ago, Bernie had support in the parts of Brooklyn that are now home to young and non-native New Yorkers, but not so much in the section of Brooklyn he came from. It appears many prefer Trump -- even many who voted for Obama last time around.

New York has a dismal voter turnout record -- and Brooklyn has among the lowest turnout rate in New York.

Hillary will win New York but Bernie will take some of the momentum out of her win by doing well in pockets of the state, such as those mostly occupied by the young and newly minted NY transplants. Here's 538 today on why Bernie is even less of a threat than he appears.

My view: Bernie's turning into a real downer. He's just depressing to watch.

< Thursday Open Thread | Trump Takes a Pass on Colorado as Unfavorability Rating Rises >
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  • Display: Sort:
    The token issue ... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 03:39:44 PM EST
    also suggests he was lying when he said he rode the subway a year ago.

    Tokens were phased out 13 years ago.

    or he just had (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CST on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 03:40:25 PM EST
    what my mother refers to as a "senior moment".

    Parent
    Possibly. (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 03:52:28 PM EST
    But I was countering Jeralyn's claim that the token error ...

    ... is relevant only to show Bernie is not a New Yorker anymore.

    Not only that.

    It also suggests (not proves, but suggests) that he might have been lying when he said seconds before that he'd ridden the subway last year.

    Parent

    GD... (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:43:50 PM EST
    ... I mean seriously.  It's just getting sad, the notion that someone is going to remember an event that takes what, 5 seconds a year ago.  And since he grew up there he probably remembers tokens.

    Why not ask him far the walk it from gate 54 to 27 in Denver or what lot he parked in when he left Logan airport last January.

    This is turning into Benghazi level of dumbassery.

    Parent

    Clearly, the NYDN editorial board ... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:00:56 PM EST
    was dubious of the claim.

    That's why they asked those follow-up questions.

    Parent

    Pure (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by FlJoe on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:33:06 PM EST
    Bernie telling a bald faced, pandering lie? Say it ain't so.
    Daily News: I know you've got to go in a second. When was the last time you rode the subway? Are you gonna a campaign in the subway?

    Sanders: Actually we rode the subway, Mike, when we were here? About a year ago? But I know how to ride the subways. I've been on them once or twice.

    Daily News: Do you really? Do you really? How do you ride the subway today?

    Sanders: What do you mean, "How do you ride the subway?"

    Daily News: How do you get on the subway today?

    Sanders: You get a token and you get in.

    Daily News: Wrong.

    Sanders: You jump over the turnstile.

    Funny how nobody has pointed that out, the media poked at him for being clueless but ignored the lie as far as I have witnessed.

    Hillary's camp must have seen it but have wisely laid off calling him a liar(so far), just made a big show out of her riding the subway the next day.

    I am absolutely sure that if Hillary had been caught in such a "fib" she would be getting pilloried right now. Bernie for some reason gets a pass.

    Parent

    I'm no big Sanders fan, but (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Peter G on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 05:09:45 PM EST
    I would hesitate to say he lied before I knew whether an aide had handled paying his fare for him.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by FlJoe on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 07:46:11 PM EST
     I got carried away, I withdraw that allegation. Sorry to everyone for shooting from hip.

    However since walking through the turnstiles is a very mechanical and single file operation with plenty of chance to observe people to the front and sides, I would find it very hard to believe that he did not notice a process that is completely different than a token system, at the very least I question his powers of observation


    Parent

    Thinking about the 100 things (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 08:11:07 PM EST
    He needed to tend to that day, being accustomed to having an aide assist in all transportation snafus, that would be an easy miss.

    Why do you guys have to beat on Sanders until it gets ridiculous and I must defend him? I'm not even a Sanders supporter damn it.

    Parent

    Pilloried..burned at the stake.. (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 05:30:06 PM EST
    in other words, publicly criticized in any way (by purity trolls). A response also described as calling "him on his outrageous b.s" when directed at Sanders in a similar circumstance.

    Parent
    I've never (none / 0) (#42)
    by Nemi on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 07:44:08 AM EST
    jumped over the turnstiles. But once a friend and I tried to get through 'two for one' (token). Ouch! Could have had fatal consequences. ;)

    Parent
    I'm just glad Bernie.. (3.67 / 3) (#8)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:15:24 PM EST
    wasn't ever forced to duck and dodge sniper fire whIle getting on the subway.

    Even though NYC can be a dangerous place.

    Parent

    Now aping the Right Wing? (3.00 / 2) (#26)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 07:54:24 PM EST
    St. Bernie of Assisi has that effect on his fans, I guess.

    Parent
    I promise to make amends (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:37:50 PM EST
    by sending a donation to Kissinger & Associates and red-baiting the first pinko fellow traveler that crosses my path.

    Parent
    Even I knew about the metro card (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:06:26 PM EST
    oculus and kdog taught me!  Bernie and Hillary both could learn a lot hanging out with those two for a weekend.

    Parent
    I'm smiling ... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:30:20 PM EST
    just imagining Kdog and Hillary kickin' it in the Apple.

    Parent
    I have a feeling they would really get along (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:33:25 PM EST
    and have a blast. kdog is a charmer with we 'women of a certain age' and Hillary is known to be fun and charming one on one. Hope I can tag along if it ever happens!

    Parent
    Agreed! (none / 0) (#16)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:45:47 PM EST
    I thought you wanted her to win man! (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by kdog on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:58:41 AM EST
    People are already questioning her electability...chillin' with me would be more politically damaging than the FBI investigation and the Wall St. connections put together. ;)

    Parent
    You had to do mine for me though (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 08:12:48 PM EST
    Remember...cuz I got the Bernie gene ;)

    Parent
    I think I had to swipe more than once! (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 08:20:11 PM EST
    I am horrible at stuff like that and I probably stayed up half the night before worrying about blowing it!  I had probably done it exactly once more than you :-)

    There are those of us that feel perfectly confident driving 3000 miles,  but not so hot in a turnstile.  Bernie is probably more of a road trip kind of guy.

    Parent

    I get claustrophobic at NYC (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 08:23:01 PM EST
    Subway turnstiles, it feels like if everything doesn't go just so I'm doomed. But at least you knew where we were going :)

    Parent
    I used the subway regularly and had to (none / 0) (#35)
    by vml68 on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 09:33:23 PM EST
    swipe my metro card multiple times on many occasions. Always fun when the person behind you starts crowding you and muttering ( sometimes under their breath but more often loud enough for everyone  around to hear!) and you start to feel like an imbecile.
    Still have 2 metro cards with me here in FL. Now expired because I have not used them in a year, with a $50 balance :-(

    Parent
    Better ask for your refund ASAP. (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 11:15:15 PM EST
    More hassle than it is worth to do (none / 0) (#53)
    by vml68 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 12:34:43 PM EST
    this long distance.

    Parent
    Oculus will be having that refund (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:24:32 PM EST
    Along with the pate across the street before the opera, and she might come home/studio condo with dark chocolate if she gets sleepy during the opera. After the opera she will trek you to some leopard's hideaway with incredible pinot and handmade ravioli.  She is the queen of Manhattan;) She skulks in the shadows of Cathedrals dedicated to artist saints, and the soup Nazi cringes when her shadow touches him.

    Uhhhhm, and bring your highest dollar tea. When the sun touches the old rippled glass window, her electric kettle will have you fleet of foot :)

    Parent

    I'd like to see tokens come back... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:55:50 AM EST
    I don't like the cards. Wasteful. Inconsistent operation. Just like the MTA.

    Parent
    I moved from Brooklyn when I was 14, (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by honora on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:13:17 PM EST
    but part of me will always be a Brooklynite.  I still have family there so I visit often. It is still in my blood. I have lived in Baltimore for 23 years and it is where I live, but I don't have the viseral feeling about it that Brooklyn evokes.  Childhood memories of innocence, I guess.


    Momentum is all Bernie has and it is running down (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:15:15 PM EST
    I think Hillary has not wanted to go all out and attack Bernie - maybe she could be running up a bigger lead if she had, and could have put the race to bed sooner. She seems to want to keep it as positive a campaign as possible, and still win, and she is achieving that goal. She is safely on track to win. It would be nice to run up the score show a more united front and to get the press to stop pretending Bernie still has a shot and asking the 'What's wrong with Hillary that she can't wrap this thing up" questions, but I think she can withstand that, especially this year when the GOP is in such bad shape.

    Senator Sanders (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:38:11 PM EST
    is becoming his own worst enemy, especially, in the temperament department.  His successes have brought with them greater media scrutiny, as observed by the "unqualified" statement made on the basis of what he thought, or read, she said. I would expect that reporting of such an assertion would be verified before taking off on it.

    Chris Hayes, MSNBC did note that Mrs. Clinton did not "explicitly" say that Senator Sanders was unqualified--in fact, she did not implicitly say it either.  It became worse with the exuberant, but incompetent interview of Jane Sanders by Rachael Maddow on her show, following Hayes.

      Miss Maddow, usually so good on such occasions, did not indicate that Mrs. Clinton did not so speak, and let Mrs. Sanders go on with a rather feeble spin.  Finally, Lawrence O'Donnell and his guest, Frank Rich (both in Sanders; corner) acknowledged that "Bernie was wrong."  And, Mrs. Clinton took the high road, handling it well.

    Parent

    Am I Missing Something ? (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:34:12 PM EST
    Does anyone think HRC or Sanders rides the subway, and that somehow a token comment proves that HRC is more NY than Bernie.

    These analyses are getting flimsier by the day.

    And let's hope New Yorkers have a little more sense than picking the candidate who is 'more New York', because in the general I am pretty sure Trump wins that contest.

    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:51:30 PM EST
    Can't envision either Mrs Clinton or Senator Sanders as NYC subway riders. And, how irrelevant it all is, but, then, Pres George HW Bush's bewilderment by a supermarket check-out scanner has become lore in being out-of-touch. And, that was 25 years ago.

    Parent
    You know that's false right? (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 11:25:57 AM EST
    Yes, (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by KeysDan on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 01:22:16 PM EST
    hence, lore.

    Parent
    As a native and NY'er (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Suisser1 on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 06:35:12 PM EST
    for the first 30 years of my life I do think the token thing is significant and not as just a gaff. Public transportation, light rail, subway, interconnected walk-ride people moving systems matter in the 21st century and metro-cards and even more sophisticated systems of tracking and analyzing traffic in real-time actually matters a great deal to anyone looking at how we build and how we live today. Not even knowing, in the abstract, that metro cards are part of the planning suggests to me a cluelessness about public transportation. I get that he's not running to be Transportation Secretary but it just reminds me how much of a small, rural state guy he is and how utterly out of he's depth he would be as PONTUS on even this lessor domestic concern.

    Parent
    Excuse me (none / 0) (#23)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 07:16:25 PM EST
    Madame Sec has not driven a car in 25 years

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#33)
    by FlJoe on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 08:55:22 PM EST
    what, like she can't see a NY traffic jam from the back of a limo?

    Parent
    Well it is hard to watch traffic (5.00 / 7) (#34)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 09:07:51 PM EST
    when you are sending classified emails on your cell phone with one hand and editing your next GS speech with the other.

    Parent
    Ooh, that reminds me: (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 10:50:24 PM EST
    Bu-Bu-Bu-BUT WHAT ABOUT BENNGHAAAZZEEEeeeee ...???

    Somebody had to say it.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Trent Gowdy (none / 0) (#39)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:28:24 AM EST
    Is hard at work on it.

    The U.S. State Department on Friday handed over more than 1,100 pages of records to the committee investigating the deaths of U.S. citizens in Benghazi, Libya on Sept. 11, 2012, the chairman of the House of Representatives panel said.

    "It is deplorable that it took over a year for these records to be produced to our committee, and that our Democrat colleagues never lifted a finger to help us get them," Gowdy, a Republican, said in the statement

    Parent

    you (none / 0) (#41)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 07:19:30 AM EST
    left out her calls to that Panamanian lawyer.....you are slipping, come on you need to do your homework.

    Parent
    Lol (none / 0) (#43)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 08:34:59 AM EST
    But they did have Guccifer brought over,

    For the FBI to interview him on his hacking of Hillary's server


    Lehel, a 42-year-old unemployed Romanian citizen with a wife and ten year-old daughter, is better known to the world as the notorious black hat hacker "Guccifer." Following his arrest in January of 2014, Lehel is serving seven years in a maximum security prison in the city of Arad, Romania, for cyber crimes against two public officials. Upon release, his real trouble will start: a nine-count USA federal indictment awaits for hacks against targets in the US. Those charges, to which he has already copped, are likely to be joined by further indictments as the full scope of his hacking activity is revealed.

    Back in the Arad penitentiary, I ask Lehel about his heyday. Was it worth it? "I had memos Hillary Clinton got as a State Secretary, with CIA briefings. These were being read by her, two other people from the US Government, and Guccifer. I used to read her memos for six-seven hours and then I'd get up and do the gardening in the yard," he says.

    http://tinyurl.com/pzjexpc

    Parent

    New Yorkers (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by vicndabx on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:55:52 PM EST
    You have to want to be one.  I've lived there my entire life up until a few years ago, and even now, in spite of the peace and quiet and space I have now, I still miss the place.  Born in the Bronx, hence da BX.

    Regarding the metrocard swipe, there is a skill that one develops but invariably, you come up against a dirty turnstile or dirty card and end up swiping a bunch of times and/or giving up and moving to another one.

    The ability to use or know of the metrocard does not a NY'er make.

    Sanders, and his campaign, seem ... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:57:02 PM EST
    to be tipping their hand, revealing they know it's all over but the shouting.

    They just won a bunch of states. But they aren't acting like they have any momentum. They aren't happy and ebullient. They aren't acting victorious.

    They're sullen, angry and heated.  They just look desperate. And you cannot win a campaign looking desperate.

    They look like people who have no chance. And they probably don't have any chance. But a campaign must not show that. Or even their tiny chance vanishes.

    An embarressment (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Myideas on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 07:28:28 PM EST
    This posting is such an embarrassment.  This is adult discourse??   I know all those immature, ill-informed kids are supporting Bernie and we the real adults support Hillary.  And these postings are irrefutable proof of this.


    Conversations about silly stuff like this are part (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 08:23:55 PM EST
    of politics, and always have been. Relax, no one is really basing a vote on subway behavior.

    Parent
    Neil Young on the Bernie Bash-In (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:34:53 AM EST
    Weaver has been (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by smott on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:51:41 AM EST
    Using some VERY loaded words about Clintin's "personal ambition" and how that threatens to destroy the Dem party.

    Really plays on the double standard that ambition in a man is a positive trait while the same in a woman is threatening and negative.

    Couple good articles on I will dig up.

    But this seems very planned sub-text by the Sanders campaign.


    I don't think it will destroy the party (none / 0) (#56)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 01:45:51 PM EST
    But I can see it depressing a lot of citizens.  I don't like reading any of this.  I don't like seeing it here.

    IMO, the real take-away from the Daily News piece was completely overlooked.

    Bernie couldn't come up with a set of legal actions with which to bludgeon the evil banksters because almost everything they did was legal.  What made their actions legal was a legal system they bought and paid for through their lobbyists, the U.S. Congress and the U.S. Senate.

    If you're not sputtering in incoherent rage, you're not paying attention.



    Parent

    Sorry you lost me? (none / 0) (#57)
    by smott on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 01:51:31 PM EST
    What will depress a lot of citizens?
    Weaver's remarks or Clinton's supposed personal ambition?

    Completely agree on the NYDN takeaway. Sanders completely whiffed in what was supposedly his signature issue, and arguably did not understand how govt works, plus admitting he "hadn't thought about it"....

    That was jaw-dropping to me.

    i guess we will see if he loses support because of it, but I doubt it, because Sanders support seems to me to be primarily emotional. These mis-steps don't count much amongst true believers.

    In that way he can be compared with Trump, though of course Trump would be far worse as a president IMO.  

    But the nature of the Sanders followers have many similarities in this regard, in that even what should be major gaffes not only don't affect them negatively, but may well solidify support.

    We'll find out in NY I guess.

    Parent

    Oh the links (none / 0) (#58)
    by smott on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 02:01:24 PM EST
    On the threat of an ambitious woman

    here

    And from Traister more pointedly that this seems a deliberate subtext from the Sanders "not going to go negative" campaign

    here

    Parent

    The Philly Enquirer Ed Board (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jbindc on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 11:30:36 AM EST
    They were mot impressed

    Few things worth fighting for are easily or quickly obtained. I think Sanders, like Howard Beale, misleads people to believe that all they need do to change the world is open up a window and yell, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" You need a better plan than what he has provided so far for what comes next.


    Harsh (none / 0) (#51)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 12:03:49 PM EST
    but couldn't have said it better myself
    I am reminded of banana republics, where people trusted their hearts to revolutionaries who didn't know how to govern.
    I was starting to almost regret my recent relatively extreme rhetoric towards  Bernie, but reading this just reaffirms my views.  

    Parent
    The Inquirer should have a revolution (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:20:53 PM EST
    and be taken over by the historically literate.

    "Banana Republics" weren't countries that had been "taken over by revolutionaries", they were originally corrupt Central American oligarchies that generally had the full support of powerful American corporations like United Fruit and Chaquita. Hence the term "Banana Republic".

    Parent

    exactly (none / 0) (#76)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:28:58 AM EST
    But bending comments toward your candidate is the status quo...regardless of facts.

    Parent
    Are you saying your (none / 0) (#77)
    by FlJoe on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:18:53 AM EST
    historical literacy leads you to believe that no revolutions took place in these "Banana Republics"?

    It should be blindingly obvious that the author was referencing revolutions that occurred in pre-existing "Banana Republics" rather than the bizarre reading you give it.

    That's always seems to be your MO, instead of arguing the main thrust the argument, you always resort to erroneous nitpicking and convoluted  interpretations of what is being said and the reality (historical and current)behind it.

    Parent

    Reread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:07:50 AM EST
    your post and agree that I read it wrong. That said, people in banana republics rebelled against the government because they needed to change the power structure and government or else never get a chance to improve their lives. Marxist leaders just happened to be the ones available to oppose the current govt.

    In the US, we have the situation where citizens have chosen different leaders depending where they are in the political spectrum. Trump and Sanders. People just want things to get better, not more of the same.

    Parent

    Of (none / 0) (#80)
    by FlJoe on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 12:00:40 PM EST
    course Revolutions happen because people are unhappy. However revolution almost always is a last ditch, extremely dangerous way to achieve change. Democracy was explicitly designed  to address the people's need for change in a systematic, orderly and peaceful way. The authors point, which I agree with, is that while Bernie, excels at pointing out, correctly IMO, what ails us, he fails to actually deliver workable plans.

    To me he is selling the quick fix of revolution, rather than the slow but safe grind of Democracy.

    To quote one of the masters

    You say you got a real solution
    Well, you know
    We'd all love to see the plan
    .
     To quote myself "Revolutions are very dangerous things"


    Parent
    You do realize (none / 0) (#81)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 12:23:31 PM EST
    that the "revolution" that Sanders is espousing is a Democratic revolution, right? One that uses voters to change the power structure in DC that will ALLOW changes to be made. As opposed to keeping all the present people in place and electing an incremental President.

    You don't really think Sanders is talking about cratering the White House and taking over, I hope.

    Parent

    Must (none / 0) (#83)
    by FlJoe on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:40:16 PM EST
    you resort to using nonsense terms such as Democratic Revolution?

    Parent
    I'll try to explain it in smaller words (none / 0) (#85)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 09:46:29 AM EST
    Simple Definition of revolution
    1. the usually violent attempt by many people to end the rule of one government and start a new one
    2. a sudden, extreme, or complete change in the way people live, work, etc.
    3. the action of moving around something in a path that is similar to a circle

    I meant democratic revolution in the sense of definition 2 above. A sudden, extreme or complete change in the way people live, work, VOTE, etc.

    Now, do you understand?

    Parent

    Since you are being kind enough to (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 10:54:54 AM EST
    explain things in smaller words for those of us who don't get it, could explain how this is going to work?

    One that uses voters to change the power structure in DC that will ALLOW changes to be made. As opposed to keeping all the present people in place and electing an incremental President.

    Who are these "present people in place" that you want to get rid off and who are you planning to replace them with?
    We know that Bernie is not fundraising for down ticket dems, are these the people you want to get rid off?
    If so, is Bernie planning on being our first dictator or is he expecting the republicans to pass his agenda if he becomes POTUS?

    Parent

    Replacing (none / 0) (#89)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:31:43 PM EST
    The old blue dog Democrats with progressive Democrats by primarying them. Replacing the DNC Chair with someone who will use a 50-state strategy instead of a donor class strategy.

    Why keep electing Democrats to Congress when all they can get passed are bills that the GOP wants passed with the help of a few Dems?

    I was at a Sanders rally today in Syracuse and the energy of the young voters was amazing. Sanders speaks to the issues that they have grown up with. Healthcare, education, climate change, debt, jobs. Kids born in the 90s don't see an incremental way back to the good old Bill Clinton days.

    BTW, that snarky reply was based on FlJoe's slap at me...turnaround and all that.

    Parent

    Now (none / 0) (#87)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 03:02:18 PM EST
    I get it, vote for Bernie and get a gig as a Rock Star/Bud tester, live like a king, and everyone votes for Democratic Socialists. Sign me up!

    Parent
    And he can do it without being president (none / 0) (#88)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:18:19 PM EST
    In fact, being president would get in the way. All that actual work to do and all.

    So I look forward to the revolutionary changing of the guard in this election and the 2018 midterms.  

    Parent

    Starting to Almost, What ? (none / 0) (#82)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:00:31 PM EST
    Realize that hyperbole has been so over the top that you might start looking like a fool ?

    Unlikely.  Friday sealed the deal when you started screaming about Subway Tokens! like the right screams about Benghazi!.

    And now I see you are trying to pair Bernie with military coups.  Remind me again how Sanders supporters have lost it.

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#90)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:33:27 PM EST
    I havent been here for a while, but the place is just radioactive (which is invisible to most, I guess).

    Parent
    I would like to take you seriously (none / 0) (#91)
    by vml68 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 05:50:21 PM EST
    but you are definitely not helping your cause
    the place is just radioactive

    If you consider TL radioactive, I cannot imagine the bubble you live in.

    Parent
    mission (none / 0) (#92)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 06:23:22 PM EST
    accomplished, how does it feel to have your candidate slimed? Come back and lecture us AFTER after you have castigated all the people calling Hillary "Murderous" and "Corrupt" and worse.

    If you are getting all wadded up about some mean talk about tokens from some rightfully pissed HRC supporters, I would fear for your sanity if he by some miracle were to win the nomination.

    Parent

    From the Rose-Sanders interview (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Nemi on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 08:20:35 AM EST
    She started!

    R: You said that Secretary Clinton isn't qualified because she takes Super PAC money and has supported trade deals.

    S: What I said was in response to what she has been saying. Washington Post headline, quote: "Clinton questions whether Sanders is qualified to be president". I thought it was appropriate to respond.

    R: But is it tit-for-tat? Is that what this campaign conversation ought to be about?

    S: No, it certainly should not be. And as you may know I have tried to run an issue oriented campaign which is what I believe the American people want to hear. They want to hear about what ideas we have to improve their lives, not just attacking each other every day. But what I do have to say, Charlie, you know, if we are getting attacked every single day by the Clinton campaign, I want them to know we're gonna respond - in kind. But I hope we do not have we have that kind of ...

    R: Do you believe Secretary Clinton is unqualified to be president?

    S: Well, does Secretary Clinton believe that I am unqualified to be president?

    R: But why can't you simply say yes, she has some of the ... a first-rate resume

    S: Absolutely

    R: in terms of a life in public service

    S: I ... all I'm saying ... look Charlie ...

    R: she's one of the most qualified people to run.

    S: She has years of experience she is extremely intelligent

    R: So what you should say?

    S: You know, I have some experience too. I have a pretty good record in Congress, as a senator, as a mayor. I think I am qualified to be president. And so to answer your question, you're right. We should not get into this tit for tat ...

    If he ever, as Hillary Clinton recently revealed has been difficult for her to learn, has had difficulty saying "I" and "me", it certainly doesn't show, anymore.

    But do listen to the whole segment. What I hear is ever more B.S. bs. But then that's just me and I readily admit that I'm biased.

    As a follow-up "Charlie Rose breaks down (does that mean sugar coats? Or maybe WSRM? ;)) his interview with Bernie Sanders."

    There's this from MP (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by FlJoe on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 12:22:27 PM EST
    March 27 Even clueless Chuck spots the negativity'

    CHUCK TODD:

    I want to talk about the two of you bring this party together, once a nominee is decided. I noticed some change at your rallies over the last couple of weeks. I want to play some excerpts here. There's a lot of booing of Hillary Clinton going on. Take a listen.

    (Begin tape)

    BERNIE SANDERS:

    She voted for the war. What she has done is established a number of super PACs, her largest one recently reported raising $25 million from-- Secretary Clinton has given speeches on Wall Street behind closed doors for $225,000 a speech.

    (End tape)

    CHUCK TODD:

    What's interesting has been your reaction to the booing. You had no reaction there, but here's what you did over a month ago when booing started about Hillary Clinton at your rallies.

    (Begin tape)

    BERNIE SANDERS:

    One of the areas where my opponent, Secretary Clinton and I have a strong disagreement. Nope, nope, nope, no. No, I respect Secretary Clinton, we can have differences.

    (End tape)

    CHUCK TODD:

    Now, according to our folks, the last time you chastised your supporters for booing Hillary Clinton was on February 23rd. Now you don't do that. Any reason?

    BERNIE SANDERS:

    No, no reason at all. You know, every day we are in different position here. I respect Secretary Clinton, I don't want our supporters to be booing her. But there are real differences of opinion. And one of the differences is that she has raised $15 million from Wall Street. We have raised 6 million individual contributions, averaging $27 a piece. People respond the way they respond.

    Translation: Nope, I just throw the red meat out there, I am not responsible for their table manners. Oh and by the way in case you haven't forgotten in the last 30 seconds "Hillary" "Wall Street" "BOO!"

    Since her sweep on 3/17 Hillary has largely played rope-a-dope with Sanders, concentrating mostly on promoting her proposals and attacking the Republicans, meanwhile Bernie has constantly used the  "Wall Street/Iraq Vote/Super Pac/Trade Deal/paid speeches" line in most, if not all, of his stump speeches and many of his interviews, all the while seeing solid evidence, right before his eyes, that those comments aroused negative feelings against, Hillary.

    Bernie knows exactly what he's doing, and frankly his campaign has gone Rovian with their" they are attacking me every day" and "they started it lies". There is little doubt in my mind that the Sanders campaign has realized they have reached the market cap on their campaign of sexy but unfleshed ideas and have come to the conclusion that their only chance is to tear Hillary down.

    Parent

    Maybe he just forgot (none / 0) (#84)
    by ExPatObserver on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:18:00 PM EST
    what happened one month ago.


    Parent
    Fun Fact (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by FlJoe on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:57:21 PM EST
    Bernie voted for the the Afghan war, should he apologize to the 2,326 U.S. Military or the thousands of civilians who died? Nah, I forgot that's the good war, and who am I to question his "Judgement" anyway.

    He voted against the Brady Bill 5 times (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by jbindc on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 08:50:25 PM EST
    Should he apologize to the familoes of all those killed by gunfire because someone should have never had access to a gun?

    Parent
    He voted to support using force in Afghanistan (none / 0) (#79)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:12:53 AM EST
    To oust the Taliban, who were protection Osama Bin Laden. He voted against continued war in Afghanistan after that was accomplished. Bernie is not a pacific, just not a knee-jerk user of US military force.

    Parent
    That's okay. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 04:18:39 PM EST
    Last time I was in the Bay Area, it took a similar amount of swipes to get my BARTcard to work.

    And you're right. Most all of us are actually from somewhere else originally. My family was military until my father died and we moved constantly, and my siblings and I were all born in different locales, depending upon where my father was stationed at the time.

    My family likes to think of themselves as native Angelenos, because that's where we were raised after my father died and my mother moved back to Pasadena to be closer to her parents, but we claim that only by virtue of our mother and grandmother, who were both born there. Among my siblings and I, I'm the only one who was actually born in Southern California. And now, I live in Hilo.

    I've been in Hawaii for 30 years now, which is far longer than I've ever resided anyplace else. My daughters, who were born here, would certainly never claim to be native Hawaiian because our family is not related by blood to the indigenous people of these islands. Rather, we're what native Hawaiians call na kama'aina, longtime local residents who call this place home.

    I think the old adage "You can't go home again" is true, because when we reach adulthood, "home" is ultimately going to be wherever you finally decide to settle and put down roots. I can't say that when I first came to Hawaii, I knew this was where I would end up staying. Life happened, and it just turned out that way.

    You may have been born in Queens, Jeralyn, but you've spent your entire adult life in Colorado, so you're no more a New Yorker than I am an Angeleno. And I'm sure if you returned to your old childhood haunts back east, you'd find that much has changed, perhaps even to the point where it's no longer recognizable to you. Your home is in Denver.

    Aloha.

    BART cards (none / 0) (#27)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 07:57:43 PM EST
    First and foremost, one needs to keep in mind that BART is sacred.  Nothing is more beloved than BART in the Bay Area.

     

    Parent

    BART is totally awesome. (none / 0) (#36)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 08, 2016 at 10:40:18 PM EST
    With rare exceptions, San Jose being one of them, I prefer to use public transportation whenever I'm in the Bay Area. That way, I don't have to deal with local traffic, particularly trying to find a place to park!

    Besides, I've been up there enough over the years that I generally know my way around. BART is inexpensive, convenient, easy to use and pretty reliable -- and best of all, it serves both SFO and OAK airports directly.

    But that said, some of BART's trains and facilities are getting a little long in the tooth.  The gate I was trying to pass through at the Montgomery St. station that morning was likely one of them. A BART employee saw me struggling with it, and directly me to use another gate, which worked perfectly fine.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The connection to OAK (none / 0) (#50)
    by MKS on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 12:00:50 PM EST
    through the Coliseum stop is not so fun.  That is the platform where the cops shot a guy in the back.

    That is one flaw in BART--no direct stop at OAK.  But it works really well for most places you want to go.  It does all the way to Walnut Creek in the East Bay of all places.

    Parent

    My aunt lives in Walnut Creek. (none / 0) (#52)
    by fishcamp on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 12:27:18 PM EST
    Nice place (none / 0) (#68)
    by MKS on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 08:16:36 AM EST
    Bernie (none / 0) (#44)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 08:47:19 AM EST
    unwittingly, admits that he started the negativity.
    Telling Jake Tapper  
    "It's always nice, but the reality is that ever since Wisconsin, when that became the sixth out of seven states that we have won in either caucuses or primaries, I think the Clinton campaign has made it public, basically, they have told the media that here in New York, they're about to become very negative, about to beat us up."
    (my bold)  He doesn't accuse the the Clinton camp of being negative, he can't, but he  sure it's just around around the corner.....or something.

    He then, robotically, goes right back to the same attack he has been using from long before WI.

    A candidate like Secretary Clinton, who voted for the disastrous war in Iraq, who has supported virtually every disastrous trade agreement that has cost us millions of decent-paying jobs and receives incredible amounts of money -- we're talking about tens of millions of dollars through a super PAC, from every special interest that you can think of, from the billionaire class -- I have my doubts about what kind of president she would make,"

    He has been using this line of attack in virtually all of his stump speeches and interviews for months to the point that it has been the main thrust of his campaign.

    IMO, Bernie's campaign ceased to be about ideas after MI, when it tasted the success of going negative.

    Sanders campaign (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by mm on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:22:53 AM EST
    Mission Accomplished:

    Notice no one is talking about his disastrous Daily News embarrassing performance.

    Parent

    Maybe (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 10:55:19 AM EST
    but it's more of the out of the frying pan into the variety. The "disaster" was fairly dominant for a cycle or two, which was probably it's shelf life anyway. Now his "not qualified" statements are being widely panned as "silly", "stupid" and even sexist(by far more neutral sources than Bill).

    Bernie directly and unequivocally stated that Hillary is unqualified for office (pretty much what he has implied for months). He doubled and tripled down on this for a cycle , while accusing Clinton of starting it, before walking it back, sort of.  Telling Jake Tapper Friday

    A candidate like Secretary Clinton, who voted for the disastrous war in Iraq, who has supported virtually every disastrous trade agreement that has cost us millions of decent-paying jobs and receives incredible amounts of money -- we're talking about tens of millions of dollars through a super PAC, from every special interest that you can think of, from the billionaire class -- I have my doubts about what kind of president she would make,"

    Same old rhetoric, same old repetitive attacks, same old negative campaign.

    Where's the ideas Bernie? Don't tell us how you voted 15 years ago, tell us how you will deal with Iraq and ISIS today and tomorrow. Don't rail against past trade deals(as much as they deserve criticism), tell us how you deal with the realities (good, bad and ugly) of globalization. Don't decry the obvious problem with big money in politics tell us how you reverse that.

    IMO, he either can't or he won't, he consistently defaults to his "holier than thou" arguments instead.

    Parent

    This is spot on (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by vicndabx on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 01:19:12 PM EST
    Where's the ideas Bernie? Don't tell us how you voted 15 years ago, tell us how you will deal with Iraq and ISIS today and tomorrow. Don't rail against past trade deals(as much as they deserve criticism), tell us how you deal with the realities (good, bad and ugly) of globalization. Don't decry the obvious problem with big money in politics tell us how you reverse that.


    Parent
    I honestly don't think policy details matter (none / 0) (#59)
    by smott on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 02:05:23 PM EST
    For either Sanders or Trump.
    Or even Obama before them.

    Their campaigns are not about political reality or substance.

    Parent

    He says he stuck with ideas until (none / 0) (#60)
    by sallywally on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 02:52:28 PM EST
    the WaPo headline that wrongly stated she said he was unqualified  (What does this say about the WaPo?) even though all were begging him to go negative. He must think "But Secretary Clinton supported virtually all the disastrous trade deals etc., etc." is discussing ideas. Now they are saying her "accusation" was based on her new strategy of "Disqualify, defeat, etc."

    Parent
    WaPo should be embarrassed (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by smott on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:20:00 PM EST
    For such a ridiculous click-bait headline.

    Both NYT and WaPO have scraped the barrel this season. And this is the best we have. It's sad.

    But Sanders should be embarrassed that, as Clinton remarked , he "did not do his homework" read the headline and NOT the actual story, and lost his temper, trampling all over the "qualified" line that Clinton refused to cross.

    I'm at the point where I think he's a thin-skinned arrogant ass.

    He's hurting the Dem party.
    But I don't sense he cares about the Dem party one whit.

    And I know Jeff Weaver doesn't. This guy is a real azzhole, and I also have the sense Sanders doesn't even really get what his own campaign is doing.  

    Of course he's now off to Italy, pretending that the Vatican invited him.


    Parent

    Charlie Rose asked a pointed question (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by christinep on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:20:02 PM EST
    about the WP's headlines ... he asked Sanders directly in a telecast interview yesterday about whether he should have read the story or ascertained the story's content before jumping to conclusions ... Rose actually suggested strongly that if Sanders would be a leader, he should know to look beyond the headlines.  (The point: Most know that the headlines are about buzz, and do not necessarily carry a precise recap of the story.)

    Bad press for Sanders the last few days ... deservedly so.

    Parent

    Charlie Rose also pushed him (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by sallywally on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:52:48 PM EST
    Until he said Clinton is qualified. He had an interview that he showed parts of on CBS This Morning and his midnight show, and he did keep after Sanders steadily until he said Clinton is qualified and agreed when Rose said let's have it end here. That was yesterday morning. Of course Sanders didn't end it there...But Rose handled him like a little kid.

    Parent
    But (none / 0) (#67)
    by Nemi on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:59:49 AM EST
    Rose handled him like a little kid.

    And Bernie Sanders acted in kind (or probably rather vice versa): "She started it! She's mean! She says bad things about me! She laughs at me! So there!" [sulks]

    He would be much better off leaving the attacks, the fingerpointing, and especially the juvenile fratboy behaviour to his staff. They are really good at it! Not to mention it's embarrassing for someone who vies for the US Presidency to expose that thin a skin. How would he as POTUS react to even the slightest expression of criticism or mocking? Not that he wont get any!

    I'm also turned off by the 'the best defense is an attack'-mode that's constantly coming from his campaign. That might be 'what politicians do', I just wish he - any presidential candidate actually - would be above that. Or at least pretend to be.              

    Parent

    Yes the WaPo gave (none / 0) (#63)
    by smott on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:55:34 PM EST
    Sanders their "worst week" award, but truly that moronic headline was a catalyst and the newspaper should acknowledge their role in the whole train wreck.

    Having said, it's spot on that Sanders jumped the gun, and didn't care about the details. Nohomework, indeed.

    Which is in keeping with his whole content-free campaign.

    My biggest issue with Sanders,the more I read, is that the guy seems absolutely the worst choice we could have on the Progressive side, to build ANY kind of consensus.

    This is a man who's made a career out of NOT compromising.

    That is admirable in many ways, but it's really the worst type of quality for the Oval Office, especially in today's times.

    Parent