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Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 09:43:55 AM EST
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Tragically, a family was murdered in New Jersey last week. The father of the family, Hossam Armanious, was a "Coptic Christian" who had argued with Muslims in an internet chat room. The Coptic Christian community in New Jersey believes the murder was a hate crime. Authorities say it's only one theory under investigation.

Already, conservative christian commentators are spreading filth. With headlines like Jihad in New Jersey, they want to know why this family's murder isn't receiving the attention of the Scott Peterson or Kobe Bryant case. Read the column, it's sick and a reminder of how many hatemongers are out there and how destructive they can be.

America - you reading this column - do not let this family die in vain! Let them be martyrs to their faith and our freedom. Let their deaths become the turning point, the moment when America finally awoke to the dangers of radical Islam and realized that the war on terror is here, on our soil, now. Do not return to life as normal....

Here's another by a commentator who describes herself as "a Conservative political commentator who firmly believes that if Leftists ran the country (left to their own devices), it would be the end of the United States as a sovereign nation."

Fights broke out at the funeral today, where people carried hate signs in the street, reading:

"American Family Beheaded on American Soil. Welcome Bin Laden."

This is Christian conduct? No, it is hate-spewed bigotry and there is nothing Christian about it. There isn't even a suspect in the case, and police have not ruled out robbery as a motive for the murders:

Authorities say the killings could have occurred during a robbery since no cash or valuables were found in the home. Prosecutor Guy Gregory said the father's wallet was found empty.

Even if it turns out that a person of the Muslim faith committed the atrocious crimes, there's no just reason to denigrate and castigate all Muslims. This kind of hate-mongering needs to be repudiated now.

Update: In the Six Degrees of Separation department, ABC News reports that a cousin of the slain family has been a translator working for the prosecution in the trial of Lynne Stewart. That goes nowhere.

Yesterday, Hudson County First Assistant Prosecutor Guy Gregory said his office is aware of that fact but that it is not a line of active investigation.

The prosecutor today confirmed money was taken from the home.

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    Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey | 79 comments (79 topical)
    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:21:29 AM EST
    The article was a little "alarm sounding", but why not? It raises some serious questions as to why this story is not receiving more coverage in the press. This WAS a brutal terrorist/hate crime... as it's been reported that nothing was taken from the house including jewelry found there. The savagery with which the oldest daughter was attacked (who, as has been reported, was an outspoken Christian at her school) and the stabbing of her cross tattoo on her wrist (now really, would just ANY murderer bother to do THAT?) shows the hatred was directed at them FOR THEIR FAITH...nothing else! This IS a mark of JIHAD and to minimize it is to cover your ears and sing "la la la la la"...I can't hear you".

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:27:49 AM EST
    Nodognit, you need to read more closely. There is no evidence it was a hate or terrorist crime. Robbery is under consideration, money was taken, and you sound like another hatemonger. You may comment here up to four times a day.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:39:37 AM EST
    This WAS a brutal terrorist/hate crime... as it's been reported that nothing was taken from the house including jewelry found there
    Was the above a leap of logic or a leap of "faith", Nodog? Also, families get murdered every day in every state. Not at all to minimize this, but don't they all deserve "front page" coverage? Unfortunately, they don't get it, because only cases where otherwise credible, successful (e.g. O.J., Kobe, Scott, Michael) people are accused get our "ohmigod" reactions. In addition, the news is SUPPOSED to provide premium coverage to events that are relevant to our lives. Your implication, Nodog, is that the world should know that terrorist "jihad" has started in America and that this is relevant news to us all over the country (the reasons being obvious, I think).

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:59:04 AM EST
    This massacre was no different than the slaying of Theo Van Gogh in Amsterdam! An attempt by Muslim radicals to silence voices that offended them...and if valuables or cash was taken, it was clearly an afterthought and NOT the purpose of the attacks and throat cuttings. It was hate-filled OVERKILL and a "message" to anyone who speaks their mind against Islam. And...I'm afraid to say, it won't be the last! Wake up and smell the Jihad, baby!!!

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#5)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:09:56 AM EST
    There have been reports that the father of the family had received e-mail death threats over religious arguments. In addition, which may or not be relevant, there are reports that a cousin of the family is a translator for the government in the Lynn Stewart case. The problem, which nobody here seems to have thought about, is that this may well be solved. And if it turns out to be Muslims, a la Theo van Gogh or Pym Fortuyn, the "hatemonger" thing will have to be changed to "eerily prescient". Families get murdered every day, and people get accused of rape every day, but why Laci Peterson and Kobe Bryant got the ink and these folks have not is a question that somebody will be thinking about and it might be well to have an answer ready. One reason Coptic Christians have nerves over this is how they are treated by Muslims in Egypt. As in killed. It probably makes an impression. A lot of people, including Muslims, had better hope this was a bunch of rabid Presybterians.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:11:19 AM EST
    Wake up and smell the Jihad, baby!!!
    Let he who is without Jihad launch the first nuke.
    It was hate-filled OVERKILL and a "message" to anyone who speaks their mind
    Sorry to quote you out of context but you described your posting perfectly.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:11:45 AM EST
    Brutal murder is not hate, but offending the blood wallowing islamists with any reasonable inquiry is hate. Up is down.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:20:20 AM EST
    Well done mfox.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:24:32 AM EST
    Fascinating that TL wants to bend over backwards with the assumption that it's not a hate crime coming from the Islamic community. In the absence of more information, I'd hesitate to guess one way or the other.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:26:25 AM EST
    Richard, even if a Muslim committed the crime, why brand all Muslims? Where's the conspiracy or even a hint that others were involved? Did we blame all Christians when Scott Peterson, who I assume was a Christian, was convicted of killing Laci? Should we?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#11)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:35:04 AM EST
    "Fascinating that TL wants to bend over backwards with the assumption that it's not a hate crime coming from the Islamic community." Uh - at this point, you have to bend over backwards to take your position, as well, as even you have admitted that there's no evidence yet.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:37:08 AM EST
    thx, kdog. That means a lot from you. I need all the help I can get here! Mr. Robinson, you say:
    TL wants to bend over backwards with the assumption that it's not a hate crime coming from the Islamic community
    If I went to the local mosque and gunned down anyone in a Turban, is that a hate crime coming from you? When misguided teenagers spray swastikas on synagogues in your town, do you feel responsible as part of the "Christian" community? Religious and political extremism do not belong to any particular religion, race or culture. As Osama was able to rally an eclectic mix of Afghan freedom fighters, religious extremists, thugs, mercenaries, the disenfranchised and disillusioned into his own personal Mujahadeen, So could Bush.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:40:05 AM EST
    et al - From MichNew: "The family was bound and tortured, before their throats were slit in accord with the instructions for executing nonbelievers, as detailed in the Koran: (47:4) "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly [on them]." "They were Coptic Christians, an Egyptian sect of Christianity especially hated by Muslims for their refusal to convert to Islam. Hossam Armanious had received death threats from Muslims. According to a family friend, one of the threats read, "You'd better stop this bull, or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you.” Sylvia was especially brutalized, apparently due to the tattoo of a Coptic cross on her wrist. The girl’s throat was not only slit, but she was stabbed repeatedly in the chest and wrist where she bore the sign of her faith." From the AP story: "We feel this is something that was very far away from our community," Ahmed Sheded, president of the Islamic Center of Jersey City, said after the service. "A real Muslim can't do that." I hope Mr. Sheded is correct. This needs to be solved, and solved fast.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#14)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:44:00 AM EST
    Who's branding all Muslims? As usual, point something out and get accused of supporting it. Would you agree it would be better for our society if this turns out to have been the work of rabid Presbyterians instead of Muslims outraged at a Copt speaking out?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:08:29 PM EST
    R. Aubrey: 12:09 post:
    One reason Coptic Christians have nerves over this is how they are treated by Muslims in Egypt
    R. Aubrey: 12:44 post:
    Who's branding all Muslims?
    Richard, if you can't even follow the logic of your own comments, how could we, the critical, thinking masses expect you to plow through Bushspeak. The intellectual laziness of the right is a great cover, though, isn't it. You can be as stupid as Rush Limbaugh but as long as your able to tie a couple of buzzwords together and link them with some derogatory reference to the left that you're thinking critically. You're officially forgiven if you promise to never vote again.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:17:54 PM EST
    You know who really loses in this? You know who allways loses in this? It is the prophet Esau Ibn Maryam, Jesus. Jesus is loved and revered by both the Muslims and the Christians. Whenever I come across reports of religiosly motivated bloodshed I allways think of poor Jesus. How much blood has been shed in His name? I think that Jesus spends much of his time at the right hand of God, as both Muslims and Christians believe this, weeping.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:19:20 PM EST
    Do you all consider the Muslims who threatened to kill the victim and his family "like dogs" hatemongers?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:19:54 PM EST
    OMG! First New York then New Jersey, It is a backward alphapet, East Coast jihad! Get a grip. This didn't get press because most people do not think arguing in a chat room makes you famous enough to be symbolicly murdered. As tragic as a murdered family is, these people are not important enought to become nationally political significant.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#19)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:24:45 PM EST
    Mfox. Copts in Egypt aren't killed by all Muslims in Egypt. They are killed by some Muslims in Egypt. When they are killed in Egypt, their killers are Muslims and not non-Muslims. Thus, when Copts in America get death threats from Muslims, they get that ol' feeling. Now, the only way out of your dilemma is for the folks not to be dead.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#20)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:32:39 PM EST
    As to stabbing the ‘cross’ tattoo, the police have indicated the wound is consistent with a defensive wound. I give this thread another 30 min.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:39:00 PM EST
    PPJ - I am certain you feel the same for the abortion doctors that are terrorized and murdered by christians. Let's say that it was a deranged muslim that killed this family, tragic and frightening yes, but no less tragic and frightening than those that murder in the name of yahweh to terrorize doctors from performing their duties. I have yet to see any media conglomerate cast disaparaging remarks upon christianity for the acts of a few deranged followers. Every religion, like every race of people has their whack jobs. Looking at this case and saying "I bet it was a muslim" may be as good an assumption as looking at any murder of an abortion provided and saying "i bet it was a christian" I don't fear "deranged" muslims any more than i fear "deranged" christians yet i don't see news coverage that says "Another Christian attacks abortion clinic" what I see is "Police seek suspect in abortion attack". Perhaps they are "safe" assumptions and if that is the case, we should treat both equally and when a terrorism act occurs at a clinic or against a doctor, the suspects religion should be broadcast and written about extensively.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#22)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:44:08 PM EST
    Jl. I agree. I's easy to agree with this, because the religious aspect of an abortion clinic bomber--the last one was when?--is always mentioned. The media aren't going to let that be forgotten. Presuming these are Muslims, then their statements about their motivation may be interesting. We know why, or at least what the murderers said about it, Fortuyn and van Gogh were killed. Some of these guys don't seem to care about keeping their agenda to themselves. And if that happens here, then the chilling effect everybody talks about might be worth considering.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:02:12 PM EST
    JL - Actually, I fear no living man. Life is too short, and I decided years ago that whatever time I had left was pure velvet and a gift from God. As to why you ask me about abortion doctors, I do not know. My previous comment merely listed what was being said, and then what Ahmed Sheded, president of the Islamic Center of Jersey City had said. My comment was only that this was bad, and that it needed to be solved, and solved quickly. Which seems to be a rather rational comment, to me.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Good post JLV.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:04:11 PM EST
    RA: Really? I just read about 10 stories from an abortion doc murder in 1998 and not a single one mention the suspects religious affiliation. What I would like to see is a fair and balanced media and police force. When there is any type of violence aimed at a clinic or a doctor the reports start swirling in about the dogmatic christians following the words of the old testament are savagely attacking innocent people. I would also like to see some profiling done that targets christians and their reading habits etc. Sounds crazy doesn't it? Of course it is. Most Christians are law abiding citizens that would never dream of hurting another human being and most think of the murderers as simply that, murderers. I would argue that the media need to cover muslim and christian faiths with the same caution and perception. Lastly, no one has mentioned that the arsons in MD that were originally labeled as "eco-terrorism" turned out to be racism. A rush to label the tree huggers as terrorists and a blind eye to overt racism. There were no apologies, no mistakes admitted, and sporadic follow up to the real terrorists, the 5 christians that hated african americans......

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:04:39 PM EST
    Here's a question for the deep thinkers here: After the PA occupied the church of the Nazarene, how many Christian ministers were out calling for a new Crusade? By contrast, whenever there's even a perceived slight against Islam, there are calls from Islamic men all around for death. Yes, I know that we have morons like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell - but as bad as they are, they don't play in the same league with the Islamic brand of fatwa generators. i don't brand all muslims as bad. I do, however, have deep suspicions about Islam as a belief system.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:10:14 PM EST
    PPJ: Because in your passive/aggressive typical psychoses, posted the Koran verse. I could post one thousand verses from the OT on when it is appropriate for a Christian to kill, including Adultery, lying, stealing, sassing your parents, fornication etc, in fact, just about any sin in the OT was punishable by death. Other than your usual P/A 'ness, the post was fine save for the "it needs to be solved quickly" as if ALL murders do not need to be solved expeditiously.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:05:25 PM EST
    Just from looking at the NYTimes' version,, I don't see any specific reason to think a Muslim did this--other than the chat room stuff, which is pretty tenuous. The bit where the Muslim cleric comes to pay his respects and the Copts assume he'd just come to gloat does make it look like the Copts' rancor for the Muslims is so strong that they'd probably blame them if their cat had kittens. This is sad, every bit of it.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:13:25 PM EST
    J.R. says:
    Yes, I know that we have morons like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell - but as bad as they are, they don't play in the same league with the Islamic brand of fatwa generators.
    Oh yeah? Why is that? Reference the original TL Posting:
    Already, conservative christian commentators are spreading filth. With headlines like Jihad in New Jersey, they want to know why this family's murder isn't receiving the attention of the Scott Peterson or Kobe Bryant case
    So, your point is that we aren't as bad as they are....why????

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:14:26 PM EST
    Oh yeah.... God is on our side...

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#31)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:46:49 PM EST
    How many Christian authorities wrote opinions calling for the death of Andres Serrano after the first showing of ‘piss christ’? As truly lame as the Falwell crowd is, their whining is lightweight compared to the fatwa coming from conservative Muslim clerics. A public offensive to Islam is guaranteed to be answered by a call for death. I’m not trying to start some holey scoreboard; but you know, being fair doesn’t mean pretending to find the same number of roaches in everyone’s house.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:52:48 PM EST
    I don't know how many Christian leaders called for death, but I know in response the the Last Temptation of Christ we had the following: In 1988, Universal released Martin Scorsese’s “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which proposed that Christ was plagued with the same doubts and appetites as normal men. The movie was met with outrage. “There were millions of letters written and 25,000 people marched on Universal,” says Tom Pollock, then a top exec at the studio. “There were death threats against my chairman, myself and Marty Scorsese. There was security in our lives for years.” How many Christian leaders came out and said "do not hate the makers of this film, love them as you would yourself". Zero that I recall. Let's face it, zealots in any religion give those practicing in good faith a bad name.......

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:57:05 PM EST
    I don't quite follow how a hate crime mass murder is any worse than just your garden variety mass murder. The term "hate crime" is a politically correct expediency in order to garner votes. The term "hate crime" needs to be expunged from our vocabulary. I do find it interesting that TL calls the the reaction to murder of coptic christians "anti-muslim" when the mass murders itself was probably anti-christian. I would call the actual crime worse than the reaction to it.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 03:02:13 PM EST
    I have true sympathy for the family and abhor their murder. However, I just can't make the jump to assume that because this crime was committed by Muslims that this murder was a realization of the Clerical Fatwa and reflects on an antipathy and general hatred that is supported by the Koran. To do so reflects an immaturity of thought, a paltry understanding of Islamic religions, and frankly, badly disguised racism.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:08:25 PM EST
    you know, i think people are people. how is the murder of the coptic christian family any less distressing than the lynching of african americans or the murder of matthew shepard? obviously, the religion angle must be examined closely. and if muslims are found to be at fault, i would definitely categorize this murder as a 'hate crime'. the apparent circumstances of the death (bound, throats cut) to me goes a long way towards establishing an anger factor, not just a random burglary gone awry. hate goes both ways. just as christians can hate gays, gays can hate christians. just as christians can hate muslims, muslims can hate christians. so if this family was killed because of their religion, and because they spoke out about against muslims (not saying that doing that is good, but it is a fundamental right granted by the constitution)... then it is a hate crime.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:35:47 PM EST
    Even if a radical jihadist Muslim committed the crime, why brand all radical jihadist Muslims? Where's the conspiracy or even a hint that others were involved? As CAIR says, "Stop The Hate!" Meanwhile, back in the real world: The married father of two had recently been threatened by Muslim members of the Web site, said a fellow Copt and store clerk who uses the chat room. "You'd better stop this bull---- or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you," was the threat, said the clerk, who was online at the time and saw the exchange. "She was very religious and very opinionated," said Jessica Cimino, 15, a fellow sophomore at Dickenson HS. A family member who viewed photos of the bloodbath said Sylvia seemed to have taken the most savage punishment. "When we saw the pictures, you could tell that they were hurt really, really bad in the face; especially Sylvia," said Milad Garas, the high-school sophomore's great-uncle. The heartless killer not only slit Sylvia's throat, but also sliced a huge gash in her chest and stabbed her in the wrist, where she had a tattoo of a Coptic cross. To me, it sounds like a burglary gone bad!

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:43:59 PM EST
    LW - And the death threats Barry Bonds receives on a regular basis from white people are any less heinous? Or the death threats abortion providers receive are any less heinous? Call a spade a spade but don't leave out the sins of those that would do the same thing to Barry because the color of his skin. Hatred is hatred and it goes both ways. Just as Mr. Scorsese.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:48:42 PM EST
    Of course, Christians and Jews have the worlds most powerful military to kill Muslims at a rate of thousands to one, in relation to Muslims killing the former. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims (and others) killed in Afganasthan, Iraq and Israel. But, instead of murder, it's called Liberation. Not to ignore all the Christians killing Christians and Muslims killing Muslims, etc. Isn't it time we evolve as a (human!) race from these archaic and irrational magics from the past.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 05:48:17 PM EST
    It is no crime to speculate. Wise people will reserve judgment until the facts are in.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimcee on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 06:08:34 PM EST
    I think I'll wait to make my judgement on this case because the details are few and far between and everything else is just conjecture. However, after reading to the end of this thread I can't believe that there is a crime that is unsolved in this world with the high percentage of mind-readers and forensic detectives on this site. Chill out kids, this could be Theo Van Gogh four times over or it could be a robbery gone bad. I'll hold my judgements either way but it doesn't mean that I won't consider the possible Islamo-facsist connections. If one refuses to believe that there could be a connection then one is not working with all possiblities in this case. The authorities should not be afraid of those who would easily hurl condemnation at them for doing their complete duties ala CAIR. As I said, I'll wait a bit longer to come to a conclusion.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 07:32:02 PM EST
    so if this family was killed because of their religion, and because they spoke out about against muslims (not saying that doing that is good, but it is a fundamental right granted by the constitution)... then it is a hate crime. jimcee, i would agree that we need to wait to see what is what when the facts come in. but i think i am being far from a mind reader or a forensic detective. a hate crime is a hate crime, no matter who committed it or who was damaged.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 08:25:53 PM EST
    a hate crime is a hate crime, no matter who committed it or who was damaged. Well, yeah, but we don't know that this is a hate crime (in the sense that it had anything to do with the family's religion). For one thing, Jersey City is arguably the creepiest town in America. The possibility that, among the myriad unemployables, mental defectives and mob-wannabees that live there might be the sort of psycho who would get off on murdering an entire family, including a couple of little girls, while rare in the general population, fits the Jersey City landscape like week-old garbage and backed-up sewers.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:00:43 PM EST
    molly; i understand where your coming from. but if it was muslims who killed this coptic christian family for their religious beliefs, that to me is a hate crime. i don't know if that is the case as i do not know all of the facts. but if they were killed because of their religious beliefs, that is a hate crime and should be prosecuted as such.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:23:03 PM EST
    I'm supposed to be worried about the concerns raised by conservatives and not the reality that there are in fact muslims in this country who would like to cut my throat? Idealism without proper analysis is idiocy. I'm not sure who is more dogmatic, the Falwell crowd or the "our utopia is going ahead as planned, stop asking questions" crowd. Another point: If the tables were turned and white racists were suspected in the attack, would your headline then be "Anti-white sentiment" or maybe the more likely "Hate crime suspected"?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 02:37:32 AM EST
    mfox: you say racism. Please explain. so far we've seen caucasian, asian and black, arab, slav and latino muslims. Where is the racist angle? Isn't being a muslim believing in the religion of islam, not a race?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 05:48:35 AM EST
    et al - Interesting. The AP story: "Authorities say the killings could have occurred during a robbery since no cash or valuables were found in the home. Prosecutor Guy Gregory said the father's wallet was found empty." The NY Post story: "Both the deacon and uncle poured cold water on the theory that the family were the victims of a robbery gone wrong. "This is not a robbery, Ayed said. "We found all of the jewelry in the house. They didn't take anything." Having an empty wallet is no sign that you have been robbed.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:18:45 AM EST
    PP Jim: For a casual thief, there's no money in stealing estate jewelry--it's 'way too traceable to resell. And you can't keep it either--again, too traceable. So not much point in taking it in the first place. You'll notice that it's a deacon and a family member jumping to that conclusion--not the cops.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#49)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:27:43 AM EST
    I was not aware that Barry Bonds was getting death threats. To my knowledge, though, he's not dead. I was reminded of a sleeper movie with Robert DeNiro and Wesley Snipes, "The Fan". DeNiro plays a fan obsessed with Snipes' run at the home run record. Eventually, he kills the player who is most likely to catch Snipes. The weird thing is that in one scene DeNiro is driving along, talking on his cell phone to a sports talk show. The way this murderous maniac talks is indistinguishable from the way the presumably non-murderous maniacs who call the sports talk shows talk in real life. I could not tell the difference. Correction. DeNiro's character was indistinguishable from real people who call in. The announcer was more reasonable than the real sports talk show hosts who are apparently hired for their ability to make a proposed change in quarterbacks seem like the end of the world. I would suggest that Bonds isn't getting mail because he's black. He's getting mail because a bunch of guys who live in their parents' basement have nothing in their lives but pro sports and get really twisted about the whole thing.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#50)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:33:16 AM EST
    “For a casual thief, there's no money in stealing estate jewelry--it's 'way too traceable to resell.” They casual thief that … binds an entire family, repeatedly stabs their children, and finishes by cutting all their throats. Doesn’t sound like a ‘casual’ thief (or a rational one at that).

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:09:08 AM EST
    RA: Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey on and on and on...Receive death threats and hate mail consistently because of the color of their skin. They have to take extensive security measures to protect themselves. If the perpetrators were caught my guess is that many of them would be of christian faith backgrounds, yet that is never an issue when suspects are caught, they are always labeled as a "stalker, deranged, psycho", as the murderer(s) of this family should be designated. Most if not all racists believe that they are justified biblically for their hatred of "inferior races" and use that in their marketing materials but it is never the center of the story and very seldom is it mentioned at all...

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#52)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:50:19 AM EST
    Well, since I don't follow sports, this death threat thing is news to me. However, I am aware that anybody with money is a target of, among other things, potential kidnappings, and frequently have security regardless of the color of their skin. The difference we may see here is that, say, Tiger is still alive, and the letterwriters are probably not going to say that Jesus told them to do it and they did it for The Church. If things are as some think, the perps in the Jersey City case may do a van Gogh and say, yeah, we did it, and we're glad and we did it for Islam. We know that's happened, as did the fatwa against Rusdie some years back.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 09:05:20 AM EST
    And "godhatesfags.com", and the death threats scorsese rec'd for "last temptation of christ" came from atheists? I can agree that this might have been a lunatic with fanatic religious beliefs, but I also acknowledge that those wanting to kill scorsese and his cast who happen to be of christian faith, are whack jobs also and not representative of the religion in its whole.....

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#54)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 09:27:58 AM EST
    JL, "godhatesfags" isn't getting millions in aid from some country to set up schools to spread its message, nor has any follower killed anybody.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 10:48:01 AM EST
    They casual thief that … binds an entire family, repeatedly stabs their children, and finishes by cutting all their throats. Doesn’t sound like a ‘casual’ thief (or a rational one at that). It's the thievery part that's casual. But clearly, as you imply, this crime wasn't primarily about theft. The point of departure is that the assumption that it was about religion isn't all that well-established either.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 10:54:57 AM EST
    Jl. I agree. I's easy to agree with this, because the religious aspect of an abortion clinic bomber--the last one was when?--is always mentioned.>> You never hear the phrase "Christian terrorist" the way "Muslim terrorist" crops up so often. James, my local conservatives have made several calls for a "new Crusade" against over the past year, not to mention justifying the original Crusades (part of the heroic battle to free Europe from the brutal, intolerant Muslims--in contrast, it's implied, to the open-minded tolerant attitudes of medieval Christianity)--thereby proving, in their eyes, that Muslims always are, and always will be The Enemy. Wile, hate crime isn't about political correctness (though I do think protesting the term is a kind of conservative PC): Our law has long acknowledged that motive matters, that a cold-blooded killing is worse than one committed in the heat of passion (whether or not you agree with that, that's the way the law runs). I don't notice anyone on the right suggesting this qualifies as a "thought crime." For that matter, killing someone as a terrorist act would bring different penalties from killing someone just because you didn't like them. I have no problem with the idea that someone who sprays Nazi graffiti over a synagogue (to give one example) deserves worse penalties than someone who sprays Kilroy Was Here.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#57)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 11:33:44 AM EST
    Fraser, if