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Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 09:43:55 AM EST
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Tragically, a family was murdered in New Jersey last week. The father of the family, Hossam Armanious, was a "Coptic Christian" who had argued with Muslims in an internet chat room. The Coptic Christian community in New Jersey believes the murder was a hate crime. Authorities say it's only one theory under investigation.

Already, conservative christian commentators are spreading filth. With headlines like Jihad in New Jersey, they want to know why this family's murder isn't receiving the attention of the Scott Peterson or Kobe Bryant case. Read the column, it's sick and a reminder of how many hatemongers are out there and how destructive they can be.

America - you reading this column - do not let this family die in vain! Let them be martyrs to their faith and our freedom. Let their deaths become the turning point, the moment when America finally awoke to the dangers of radical Islam and realized that the war on terror is here, on our soil, now. Do not return to life as normal....

Here's another by a commentator who describes herself as "a Conservative political commentator who firmly believes that if Leftists ran the country (left to their own devices), it would be the end of the United States as a sovereign nation."

Fights broke out at the funeral today, where people carried hate signs in the street, reading:

"American Family Beheaded on American Soil. Welcome Bin Laden."

This is Christian conduct? No, it is hate-spewed bigotry and there is nothing Christian about it. There isn't even a suspect in the case, and police have not ruled out robbery as a motive for the murders:

Authorities say the killings could have occurred during a robbery since no cash or valuables were found in the home. Prosecutor Guy Gregory said the father's wallet was found empty.

Even if it turns out that a person of the Muslim faith committed the atrocious crimes, there's no just reason to denigrate and castigate all Muslims. This kind of hate-mongering needs to be repudiated now.

Update: In the Six Degrees of Separation department, ABC News reports that a cousin of the slain family has been a translator working for the prosecution in the trial of Lynne Stewart. That goes nowhere.

Yesterday, Hudson County First Assistant Prosecutor Guy Gregory said his office is aware of that fact but that it is not a line of active investigation.

The prosecutor today confirmed money was taken from the home.

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    Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey | 79 comments (79 topical)
    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:21:29 AM EST
    The article was a little "alarm sounding", but why not? It raises some serious questions as to why this story is not receiving more coverage in the press. This WAS a brutal terrorist/hate crime... as it's been reported that nothing was taken from the house including jewelry found there. The savagery with which the oldest daughter was attacked (who, as has been reported, was an outspoken Christian at her school) and the stabbing of her cross tattoo on her wrist (now really, would just ANY murderer bother to do THAT?) shows the hatred was directed at them FOR THEIR FAITH...nothing else! This IS a mark of JIHAD and to minimize it is to cover your ears and sing "la la la la la"...I can't hear you".

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:27:49 AM EST
    Nodognit, you need to read more closely. There is no evidence it was a hate or terrorist crime. Robbery is under consideration, money was taken, and you sound like another hatemonger. You may comment here up to four times a day.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:39:37 AM EST
    This WAS a brutal terrorist/hate crime... as it's been reported that nothing was taken from the house including jewelry found there
    Was the above a leap of logic or a leap of "faith", Nodog? Also, families get murdered every day in every state. Not at all to minimize this, but don't they all deserve "front page" coverage? Unfortunately, they don't get it, because only cases where otherwise credible, successful (e.g. O.J., Kobe, Scott, Michael) people are accused get our "ohmigod" reactions. In addition, the news is SUPPOSED to provide premium coverage to events that are relevant to our lives. Your implication, Nodog, is that the world should know that terrorist "jihad" has started in America and that this is relevant news to us all over the country (the reasons being obvious, I think).

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:59:04 AM EST
    This massacre was no different than the slaying of Theo Van Gogh in Amsterdam! An attempt by Muslim radicals to silence voices that offended them...and if valuables or cash was taken, it was clearly an afterthought and NOT the purpose of the attacks and throat cuttings. It was hate-filled OVERKILL and a "message" to anyone who speaks their mind against Islam. And...I'm afraid to say, it won't be the last! Wake up and smell the Jihad, baby!!!

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#5)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:09:56 AM EST
    There have been reports that the father of the family had received e-mail death threats over religious arguments. In addition, which may or not be relevant, there are reports that a cousin of the family is a translator for the government in the Lynn Stewart case. The problem, which nobody here seems to have thought about, is that this may well be solved. And if it turns out to be Muslims, a la Theo van Gogh or Pym Fortuyn, the "hatemonger" thing will have to be changed to "eerily prescient". Families get murdered every day, and people get accused of rape every day, but why Laci Peterson and Kobe Bryant got the ink and these folks have not is a question that somebody will be thinking about and it might be well to have an answer ready. One reason Coptic Christians have nerves over this is how they are treated by Muslims in Egypt. As in killed. It probably makes an impression. A lot of people, including Muslims, had better hope this was a bunch of rabid Presybterians.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:11:19 AM EST
    Wake up and smell the Jihad, baby!!!
    Let he who is without Jihad launch the first nuke.
    It was hate-filled OVERKILL and a "message" to anyone who speaks their mind
    Sorry to quote you out of context but you described your posting perfectly.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:11:45 AM EST
    Brutal murder is not hate, but offending the blood wallowing islamists with any reasonable inquiry is hate. Up is down.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:20:20 AM EST
    Well done mfox.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:24:32 AM EST
    Fascinating that TL wants to bend over backwards with the assumption that it's not a hate crime coming from the Islamic community. In the absence of more information, I'd hesitate to guess one way or the other.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:26:25 AM EST
    Richard, even if a Muslim committed the crime, why brand all Muslims? Where's the conspiracy or even a hint that others were involved? Did we blame all Christians when Scott Peterson, who I assume was a Christian, was convicted of killing Laci? Should we?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#11)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:35:04 AM EST
    "Fascinating that TL wants to bend over backwards with the assumption that it's not a hate crime coming from the Islamic community." Uh - at this point, you have to bend over backwards to take your position, as well, as even you have admitted that there's no evidence yet.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:37:08 AM EST
    thx, kdog. That means a lot from you. I need all the help I can get here! Mr. Robinson, you say:
    TL wants to bend over backwards with the assumption that it's not a hate crime coming from the Islamic community
    If I went to the local mosque and gunned down anyone in a Turban, is that a hate crime coming from you? When misguided teenagers spray swastikas on synagogues in your town, do you feel responsible as part of the "Christian" community? Religious and political extremism do not belong to any particular religion, race or culture. As Osama was able to rally an eclectic mix of Afghan freedom fighters, religious extremists, thugs, mercenaries, the disenfranchised and disillusioned into his own personal Mujahadeen, So could Bush.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:40:05 AM EST
    et al - From MichNew: "The family was bound and tortured, before their throats were slit in accord with the instructions for executing nonbelievers, as detailed in the Koran: (47:4) "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly [on them]." "They were Coptic Christians, an Egyptian sect of Christianity especially hated by Muslims for their refusal to convert to Islam. Hossam Armanious had received death threats from Muslims. According to a family friend, one of the threats read, "You'd better stop this bull, or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you.” Sylvia was especially brutalized, apparently due to the tattoo of a Coptic cross on her wrist. The girl’s throat was not only slit, but she was stabbed repeatedly in the chest and wrist where she bore the sign of her faith." From the AP story: "We feel this is something that was very far away from our community," Ahmed Sheded, president of the Islamic Center of Jersey City, said after the service. "A real Muslim can't do that." I hope Mr. Sheded is correct. This needs to be solved, and solved fast.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#14)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 11:44:00 AM EST
    Who's branding all Muslims? As usual, point something out and get accused of supporting it. Would you agree it would be better for our society if this turns out to have been the work of rabid Presbyterians instead of Muslims outraged at a Copt speaking out?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:08:29 PM EST
    R. Aubrey: 12:09 post:
    One reason Coptic Christians have nerves over this is how they are treated by Muslims in Egypt
    R. Aubrey: 12:44 post:
    Who's branding all Muslims?
    Richard, if you can't even follow the logic of your own comments, how could we, the critical, thinking masses expect you to plow through Bushspeak. The intellectual laziness of the right is a great cover, though, isn't it. You can be as stupid as Rush Limbaugh but as long as your able to tie a couple of buzzwords together and link them with some derogatory reference to the left that you're thinking critically. You're officially forgiven if you promise to never vote again.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:17:54 PM EST
    You know who really loses in this? You know who allways loses in this? It is the prophet Esau Ibn Maryam, Jesus. Jesus is loved and revered by both the Muslims and the Christians. Whenever I come across reports of religiosly motivated bloodshed I allways think of poor Jesus. How much blood has been shed in His name? I think that Jesus spends much of his time at the right hand of God, as both Muslims and Christians believe this, weeping.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:19:20 PM EST
    Do you all consider the Muslims who threatened to kill the victim and his family "like dogs" hatemongers?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:19:54 PM EST
    OMG! First New York then New Jersey, It is a backward alphapet, East Coast jihad! Get a grip. This didn't get press because most people do not think arguing in a chat room makes you famous enough to be symbolicly murdered. As tragic as a murdered family is, these people are not important enought to become nationally political significant.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#19)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:24:45 PM EST
    Mfox. Copts in Egypt aren't killed by all Muslims in Egypt. They are killed by some Muslims in Egypt. When they are killed in Egypt, their killers are Muslims and not non-Muslims. Thus, when Copts in America get death threats from Muslims, they get that ol' feeling. Now, the only way out of your dilemma is for the folks not to be dead.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#20)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:32:39 PM EST
    As to stabbing the ‘cross’ tattoo, the police have indicated the wound is consistent with a defensive wound. I give this thread another 30 min.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:39:00 PM EST
    PPJ - I am certain you feel the same for the abortion doctors that are terrorized and murdered by christians. Let's say that it was a deranged muslim that killed this family, tragic and frightening yes, but no less tragic and frightening than those that murder in the name of yahweh to terrorize doctors from performing their duties. I have yet to see any media conglomerate cast disaparaging remarks upon christianity for the acts of a few deranged followers. Every religion, like every race of people has their whack jobs. Looking at this case and saying "I bet it was a muslim" may be as good an assumption as looking at any murder of an abortion provided and saying "i bet it was a christian" I don't fear "deranged" muslims any more than i fear "deranged" christians yet i don't see news coverage that says "Another Christian attacks abortion clinic" what I see is "Police seek suspect in abortion attack". Perhaps they are "safe" assumptions and if that is the case, we should treat both equally and when a terrorism act occurs at a clinic or against a doctor, the suspects religion should be broadcast and written about extensively.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#22)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 12:44:08 PM EST
    Jl. I agree. I's easy to agree with this, because the religious aspect of an abortion clinic bomber--the last one was when?--is always mentioned. The media aren't going to let that be forgotten. Presuming these are Muslims, then their statements about their motivation may be interesting. We know why, or at least what the murderers said about it, Fortuyn and van Gogh were killed. Some of these guys don't seem to care about keeping their agenda to themselves. And if that happens here, then the chilling effect everybody talks about might be worth considering.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:02:12 PM EST
    JL - Actually, I fear no living man. Life is too short, and I decided years ago that whatever time I had left was pure velvet and a gift from God. As to why you ask me about abortion doctors, I do not know. My previous comment merely listed what was being said, and then what Ahmed Sheded, president of the Islamic Center of Jersey City had said. My comment was only that this was bad, and that it needed to be solved, and solved quickly. Which seems to be a rather rational comment, to me.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Good post JLV.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:04:11 PM EST
    RA: Really? I just read about 10 stories from an abortion doc murder in 1998 and not a single one mention the suspects religious affiliation. What I would like to see is a fair and balanced media and police force. When there is any type of violence aimed at a clinic or a doctor the reports start swirling in about the dogmatic christians following the words of the old testament are savagely attacking innocent people. I would also like to see some profiling done that targets christians and their reading habits etc. Sounds crazy doesn't it? Of course it is. Most Christians are law abiding citizens that would never dream of hurting another human being and most think of the murderers as simply that, murderers. I would argue that the media need to cover muslim and christian faiths with the same caution and perception. Lastly, no one has mentioned that the arsons in MD that were originally labeled as "eco-terrorism" turned out to be racism. A rush to label the tree huggers as terrorists and a blind eye to overt racism. There were no apologies, no mistakes admitted, and sporadic follow up to the real terrorists, the 5 christians that hated african americans......

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:04:39 PM EST
    Here's a question for the deep thinkers here: After the PA occupied the church of the Nazarene, how many Christian ministers were out calling for a new Crusade? By contrast, whenever there's even a perceived slight against Islam, there are calls from Islamic men all around for death. Yes, I know that we have morons like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell - but as bad as they are, they don't play in the same league with the Islamic brand of fatwa generators. i don't brand all muslims as bad. I do, however, have deep suspicions about Islam as a belief system.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 01:10:14 PM EST
    PPJ: Because in your passive/aggressive typical psychoses, posted the Koran verse. I could post one thousand verses from the OT on when it is appropriate for a Christian to kill, including Adultery, lying, stealing, sassing your parents, fornication etc, in fact, just about any sin in the OT was punishable by death. Other than your usual P/A 'ness, the post was fine save for the "it needs to be solved quickly" as if ALL murders do not need to be solved expeditiously.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:05:25 PM EST
    Just from looking at the NYTimes' version,, I don't see any specific reason to think a Muslim did this--other than the chat room stuff, which is pretty tenuous. The bit where the Muslim cleric comes to pay his respects and the Copts assume he'd just come to gloat does make it look like the Copts' rancor for the Muslims is so strong that they'd probably blame them if their cat had kittens. This is sad, every bit of it.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:13:25 PM EST
    J.R. says:
    Yes, I know that we have morons like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell - but as bad as they are, they don't play in the same league with the Islamic brand of fatwa generators.
    Oh yeah? Why is that? Reference the original TL Posting:
    Already, conservative christian commentators are spreading filth. With headlines like Jihad in New Jersey, they want to know why this family's murder isn't receiving the attention of the Scott Peterson or Kobe Bryant case
    So, your point is that we aren't as bad as they are....why????

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:14:26 PM EST
    Oh yeah.... God is on our side...

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#31)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:46:49 PM EST
    How many Christian authorities wrote opinions calling for the death of Andres Serrano after the first showing of ‘piss christ’? As truly lame as the Falwell crowd is, their whining is lightweight compared to the fatwa coming from conservative Muslim clerics. A public offensive to Islam is guaranteed to be answered by a call for death. I’m not trying to start some holey scoreboard; but you know, being fair doesn’t mean pretending to find the same number of roaches in everyone’s house.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:52:48 PM EST
    I don't know how many Christian leaders called for death, but I know in response the the Last Temptation of Christ we had the following: In 1988, Universal released Martin Scorsese’s “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which proposed that Christ was plagued with the same doubts and appetites as normal men. The movie was met with outrage. “There were millions of letters written and 25,000 people marched on Universal,” says Tom Pollock, then a top exec at the studio. “There were death threats against my chairman, myself and Marty Scorsese. There was security in our lives for years.” How many Christian leaders came out and said "do not hate the makers of this film, love them as you would yourself". Zero that I recall. Let's face it, zealots in any religion give those practicing in good faith a bad name.......

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 02:57:05 PM EST
    I don't quite follow how a hate crime mass murder is any worse than just your garden variety mass murder. The term "hate crime" is a politically correct expediency in order to garner votes. The term "hate crime" needs to be expunged from our vocabulary. I do find it interesting that TL calls the the reaction to murder of coptic christians "anti-muslim" when the mass murders itself was probably anti-christian. I would call the actual crime worse than the reaction to it.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 03:02:13 PM EST
    I have true sympathy for the family and abhor their murder. However, I just can't make the jump to assume that because this crime was committed by Muslims that this murder was a realization of the Clerical Fatwa and reflects on an antipathy and general hatred that is supported by the Koran. To do so reflects an immaturity of thought, a paltry understanding of Islamic religions, and frankly, badly disguised racism.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:08:25 PM EST
    you know, i think people are people. how is the murder of the coptic christian family any less distressing than the lynching of african americans or the murder of matthew shepard? obviously, the religion angle must be examined closely. and if muslims are found to be at fault, i would definitely categorize this murder as a 'hate crime'. the apparent circumstances of the death (bound, throats cut) to me goes a long way towards establishing an anger factor, not just a random burglary gone awry. hate goes both ways. just as christians can hate gays, gays can hate christians. just as christians can hate muslims, muslims can hate christians. so if this family was killed because of their religion, and because they spoke out about against muslims (not saying that doing that is good, but it is a fundamental right granted by the constitution)... then it is a hate crime.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:35:47 PM EST
    Even if a radical jihadist Muslim committed the crime, why brand all radical jihadist Muslims? Where's the conspiracy or even a hint that others were involved? As CAIR says, "Stop The Hate!" Meanwhile, back in the real world: The married father of two had recently been threatened by Muslim members of the Web site, said a fellow Copt and store clerk who uses the chat room. "You'd better stop this bull---- or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you," was the threat, said the clerk, who was online at the time and saw the exchange. "She was very religious and very opinionated," said Jessica Cimino, 15, a fellow sophomore at Dickenson HS. A family member who viewed photos of the bloodbath said Sylvia seemed to have taken the most savage punishment. "When we saw the pictures, you could tell that they were hurt really, really bad in the face; especially Sylvia," said Milad Garas, the high-school sophomore's great-uncle. The heartless killer not only slit Sylvia's throat, but also sliced a huge gash in her chest and stabbed her in the wrist, where she had a tattoo of a Coptic cross. To me, it sounds like a burglary gone bad!

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:43:59 PM EST
    LW - And the death threats Barry Bonds receives on a regular basis from white people are any less heinous? Or the death threats abortion providers receive are any less heinous? Call a spade a spade but don't leave out the sins of those that would do the same thing to Barry because the color of his skin. Hatred is hatred and it goes both ways. Just as Mr. Scorsese.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 04:48:42 PM EST
    Of course, Christians and Jews have the worlds most powerful military to kill Muslims at a rate of thousands to one, in relation to Muslims killing the former. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims (and others) killed in Afganasthan, Iraq and Israel. But, instead of murder, it's called Liberation. Not to ignore all the Christians killing Christians and Muslims killing Muslims, etc. Isn't it time we evolve as a (human!) race from these archaic and irrational magics from the past.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 05:48:17 PM EST
    It is no crime to speculate. Wise people will reserve judgment until the facts are in.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimcee on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 06:08:34 PM EST
    I think I'll wait to make my judgement on this case because the details are few and far between and everything else is just conjecture. However, after reading to the end of this thread I can't believe that there is a crime that is unsolved in this world with the high percentage of mind-readers and forensic detectives on this site. Chill out kids, this could be Theo Van Gogh four times over or it could be a robbery gone bad. I'll hold my judgements either way but it doesn't mean that I won't consider the possible Islamo-facsist connections. If one refuses to believe that there could be a connection then one is not working with all possiblities in this case. The authorities should not be afraid of those who would easily hurl condemnation at them for doing their complete duties ala CAIR. As I said, I'll wait a bit longer to come to a conclusion.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 07:32:02 PM EST
    so if this family was killed because of their religion, and because they spoke out about against muslims (not saying that doing that is good, but it is a fundamental right granted by the constitution)... then it is a hate crime. jimcee, i would agree that we need to wait to see what is what when the facts come in. but i think i am being far from a mind reader or a forensic detective. a hate crime is a hate crime, no matter who committed it or who was damaged.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 08:25:53 PM EST
    a hate crime is a hate crime, no matter who committed it or who was damaged. Well, yeah, but we don't know that this is a hate crime (in the sense that it had anything to do with the family's religion). For one thing, Jersey City is arguably the creepiest town in America. The possibility that, among the myriad unemployables, mental defectives and mob-wannabees that live there might be the sort of psycho who would get off on murdering an entire family, including a couple of little girls, while rare in the general population, fits the Jersey City landscape like week-old garbage and backed-up sewers.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:00:43 PM EST
    molly; i understand where your coming from. but if it was muslims who killed this coptic christian family for their religious beliefs, that to me is a hate crime. i don't know if that is the case as i do not know all of the facts. but if they were killed because of their religious beliefs, that is a hate crime and should be prosecuted as such.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:23:03 PM EST
    I'm supposed to be worried about the concerns raised by conservatives and not the reality that there are in fact muslims in this country who would like to cut my throat? Idealism without proper analysis is idiocy. I'm not sure who is more dogmatic, the Falwell crowd or the "our utopia is going ahead as planned, stop asking questions" crowd. Another point: If the tables were turned and white racists were suspected in the attack, would your headline then be "Anti-white sentiment" or maybe the more likely "Hate crime suspected"?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 02:37:32 AM EST
    mfox: you say racism. Please explain. so far we've seen caucasian, asian and black, arab, slav and latino muslims. Where is the racist angle? Isn't being a muslim believing in the religion of islam, not a race?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 05:48:35 AM EST
    et al - Interesting. The AP story: "Authorities say the killings could have occurred during a robbery since no cash or valuables were found in the home. Prosecutor Guy Gregory said the father's wallet was found empty." The NY Post story: "Both the deacon and uncle poured cold water on the theory that the family were the victims of a robbery gone wrong. "This is not a robbery, Ayed said. "We found all of the jewelry in the house. They didn't take anything." Having an empty wallet is no sign that you have been robbed.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:18:45 AM EST
    PP Jim: For a casual thief, there's no money in stealing estate jewelry--it's 'way too traceable to resell. And you can't keep it either--again, too traceable. So not much point in taking it in the first place. You'll notice that it's a deacon and a family member jumping to that conclusion--not the cops.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#49)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:27:43 AM EST
    I was not aware that Barry Bonds was getting death threats. To my knowledge, though, he's not dead. I was reminded of a sleeper movie with Robert DeNiro and Wesley Snipes, "The Fan". DeNiro plays a fan obsessed with Snipes' run at the home run record. Eventually, he kills the player who is most likely to catch Snipes. The weird thing is that in one scene DeNiro is driving along, talking on his cell phone to a sports talk show. The way this murderous maniac talks is indistinguishable from the way the presumably non-murderous maniacs who call the sports talk shows talk in real life. I could not tell the difference. Correction. DeNiro's character was indistinguishable from real people who call in. The announcer was more reasonable than the real sports talk show hosts who are apparently hired for their ability to make a proposed change in quarterbacks seem like the end of the world. I would suggest that Bonds isn't getting mail because he's black. He's getting mail because a bunch of guys who live in their parents' basement have nothing in their lives but pro sports and get really twisted about the whole thing.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#50)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:33:16 AM EST
    “For a casual thief, there's no money in stealing estate jewelry--it's 'way too traceable to resell.” They casual thief that … binds an entire family, repeatedly stabs their children, and finishes by cutting all their throats. Doesn’t sound like a ‘casual’ thief (or a rational one at that).

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:09:08 AM EST
    RA: Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey on and on and on...Receive death threats and hate mail consistently because of the color of their skin. They have to take extensive security measures to protect themselves. If the perpetrators were caught my guess is that many of them would be of christian faith backgrounds, yet that is never an issue when suspects are caught, they are always labeled as a "stalker, deranged, psycho", as the murderer(s) of this family should be designated. Most if not all racists believe that they are justified biblically for their hatred of "inferior races" and use that in their marketing materials but it is never the center of the story and very seldom is it mentioned at all...

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#52)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:50:19 AM EST
    Well, since I don't follow sports, this death threat thing is news to me. However, I am aware that anybody with money is a target of, among other things, potential kidnappings, and frequently have security regardless of the color of their skin. The difference we may see here is that, say, Tiger is still alive, and the letterwriters are probably not going to say that Jesus told them to do it and they did it for The Church. If things are as some think, the perps in the Jersey City case may do a van Gogh and say, yeah, we did it, and we're glad and we did it for Islam. We know that's happened, as did the fatwa against Rusdie some years back.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 09:05:20 AM EST
    And "godhatesfags.com", and the death threats scorsese rec'd for "last temptation of christ" came from atheists? I can agree that this might have been a lunatic with fanatic religious beliefs, but I also acknowledge that those wanting to kill scorsese and his cast who happen to be of christian faith, are whack jobs also and not representative of the religion in its whole.....

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#54)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 09:27:58 AM EST
    JL, "godhatesfags" isn't getting millions in aid from some country to set up schools to spread its message, nor has any follower killed anybody.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 10:48:01 AM EST
    They casual thief that … binds an entire family, repeatedly stabs their children, and finishes by cutting all their throats. Doesn’t sound like a ‘casual’ thief (or a rational one at that). It's the thievery part that's casual. But clearly, as you imply, this crime wasn't primarily about theft. The point of departure is that the assumption that it was about religion isn't all that well-established either.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 10:54:57 AM EST
    Jl. I agree. I's easy to agree with this, because the religious aspect of an abortion clinic bomber--the last one was when?--is always mentioned.>> You never hear the phrase "Christian terrorist" the way "Muslim terrorist" crops up so often. James, my local conservatives have made several calls for a "new Crusade" against over the past year, not to mention justifying the original Crusades (part of the heroic battle to free Europe from the brutal, intolerant Muslims--in contrast, it's implied, to the open-minded tolerant attitudes of medieval Christianity)--thereby proving, in their eyes, that Muslims always are, and always will be The Enemy. Wile, hate crime isn't about political correctness (though I do think protesting the term is a kind of conservative PC): Our law has long acknowledged that motive matters, that a cold-blooded killing is worse than one committed in the heat of passion (whether or not you agree with that, that's the way the law runs). I don't notice anyone on the right suggesting this qualifies as a "thought crime." For that matter, killing someone as a terrorist act would bring different penalties from killing someone just because you didn't like them. I have no problem with the idea that someone who sprays Nazi graffiti over a synagogue (to give one example) deserves worse penalties than someone who sprays Kilroy Was Here.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#57)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 11:33:44 AM EST
    Fraser, if you want to do history, most of the Middle East was Christian, as was North Africa, before the Muslim onslaught. It's odd how a temporary and small counter-offensive gets all the bad press. Siege of Vienna? That the Muslims lost that is, in your view a good thing or a bad thing? You might want to tell van Gogh's next of kin that he's not really dead. It's a Crusader plot to make Muslims look bad. van Gogh had a nose job and is living in Wyoming under an assumed name.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#58)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 11:38:45 AM EST
    RA: No one has ever been accused or prosecuted from their group for killing a homosexual, that is correct, but their hateful rhetoric may be an accelerant to a follower. So let's leave em out of it. What is your defense of the abortion docs who have died from Christian Terrorism? Islamic schools get aid from a variety of places and the curricula is not about killing americans, perhaps it does go on in some schools in the muslim world but it is not the mission of the school to raise terrorists. No more than the US' funding of Osama against the Russians or Saddam against Iran was to promote terror. You cannot make an argument about funding of terrorists when we were the principal funders of our own arch enemies. You never address the silence of the American Clergy on the death threats of Scorsese and his crew for the last temptation, nor do you address their silence after the murder of Matthew Shepard, yet you readily (on other threads) rally against muslim clergy for not speaking out against "terror". Nor do you address the terrorist acts of the MD racists who burned down homes because blacks were buying them. There are in excess of 600 Hate Groups in the US, most of whom embrace and advocate violence and most of whom are Christian based in their belief systems. 600 hate groups, I would imagine reach tens if not hundreds of thousands of Americans. How come no major media conglomerate is associating these groups as Christian Terrorists? Because we are a "christian" nation and their ratings and advertising would disappear. You get the coverage that sells advertising slots, not the whole picture.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 12:59:00 PM EST
    There are probably alot of reasonable people who read/post here. I address you. Don't let these traitors who are in a majority here scare you away from what you can see with your own eyes. Don't let these anti-peace facists tell you that what you believe is unacceptable. Don't let them get away with attempting to shame you into believing that this was a robbery. Don't let them convince you that muslims (not all but enough) will not kill you for not believing as they do. Do not let them take away our national security so the can create a perverted sense of political correctness. Do not let them force you into denial of what you can see and hear. There are muslims everywhere that will do exactly what they did to this family to you and your children just because you don't believe in their false idol. Keep strong, remain vigilant, remember 911, and support George W. Bush in each and every step of the journey in finding and destroying these animals.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#60)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 01:05:54 PM EST
    Thanks Dagma, my cousin Earl needs a partner for the Star Trek 2005 convention, are you busy that weekend?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 01:21:25 PM EST
    Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. The 6th Commandment. "Thou shalt not kill" in the Bible refers to the unauthorized killing of a human being. This commandment extends from physical bloodshed down to the mere harboring of hateful thoughts against one's neighbor. “…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (Al-An`am: 151) According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. You can probably find a verse or a teaching in any religion that states murder is abhorred by God. Any person who murders is not following God (in whatever respect you wish to worship the Creator). Therefore anyone committing murder under religious pretexts is not only a murderer, but a liar. God does not sanction murder. Religious edicts that propose we murder our enemies are put forth by man. God is not man. To be a Christian is to follow the example of Christ in your daily life as closely as possible. To be a Muslim is achieve peace through the submission to God's will. The point is: because someone's cultural identity is associated with a certain religion does not make that person a follower of that religion. If you murder, whether it be roadside bombs in Iraq or the bombing of abortion clinics, you are not following God's will. There will be no reward for these deeds in the afterlife. God is on everyone's side and weeps for us and all our psuedo-religious posturing.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 01:29:53 PM EST
    Two comments: First, the original article assumes that the killers were Islamic terrorists. I doubt that a terrorist sleeper cell would risk being caught just to wage a personal vendetta against a detractor. Second, the original writer is wearing his bias on his sleeve — he is the classic Conservative cool-aid drinker who spews anti-Muslim sentiment and feels the US has to get all of "them" before they get "us". The writer's denial of any bias crimes against Arabs or Muslims post 9-11 is a clear givaway that he is not dealing with facts. Several Anti-Discrimination agencies have reported over 600 bias crimes against Arabs and Muslims in the year following 9-11. I am an Arab Orthodox Christian and I mourn the family at issue here. Perhaps the killers were Muslim; the facts are not in yet. But to go around and perpetuate the idea that Jihadists are ready to kill Christians in their sleep is a stretch of the imagination.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 01:55:16 PM EST
    Thanks, Dagma, for saving me the trouble of proving that some folks just hate Muslims!

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#64)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 02:00:50 PM EST
    McKab. I doubt if an Islamic sleeper cell would out themselves. A maniac or three might decide they'd heard the CALL, which is different from a sleeper cell. If people are looking for silence, I guess looking at Muslim clergy is the place to start. Anyway, as regards Scorsese, I believe he's still alive. Whether or not the death threats as breathlessly retailed hereabouts really happened or not is not something I will take on the word of a lefty. Nor will I accept an assertion that no clergy said anything. As far as I know, the hate groups like Aryan Brotherhood do not talk much about Jesus. They have some Old Testament stuff, or something, but little Sermon on The Mount. It happens that most of the people in this country are born Christian, but that doesn't mean that when they are being buttheads they are doing so because they think buttheading is the Christian thing to do. So, anyway, what's the line on whether the Muslim defeat at the Siege of Vienna was a good thing or a bad thing? Ditto Tours and Lepanto. Oh, yeah. Should Andalusia be given back to the Muslims? That was the result of a seven-hundred year crusade, albeit named Reconquista.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 02:04:04 PM EST
    There are muslims everywhere that will do exactly what they did to this family to you and your children just because you don't believe in their false idol.
    You want to kill them Dagma? The army is looking for a few (more) good interrogators. Please just admit that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld agree with you in your scary little brain. Too bad you couldn't put that duct tape you're stockpiling to better use, like, over your keyboard.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 02:36:08 PM EST
    Don't take it from me RA, take it from the man himself: In 1988, Universal released Martin Scorsese’s “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which proposed that Christ was plagued with the same doubts and appetites as normal men. The movie was met with outrage. “There were millions of letters written and 25,000 people marched on Universal,” says Tom Pollock, then a top exec at the studio. “There were death threats against my chairman, myself and Marty Scorsese. There was security in our lives for years.” And the movie made only $8.4 million.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#67)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 02:37:00 PM EST
    Fortunately for Mr. Scorsese, he has the money to surround himself with security from the Christian Terrorists.....

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#68)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 02:41:22 PM EST
    As for the all the doctors murdered by Christian Terrorists, their killers were doing it in the name of their lord. Just like the Aryan Brotherhood. Different sects perhaps than the southern baptist league, but Christian nonetheless. RA: Don't cower from arguments because your hypocrisy is displayed, own your ineptitude and hard-headedness, it is far more flattering.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#69)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 05:11:28 PM EST
    JL. Protesting and writing letters is protected under the First Amendment. Death threats are not. But why did you have to haul in the protected stuff if not to inflate the situation? I guess this is the opposite of "if they're bad we can be bad" excuse. "We're so bad, we don't get to object." My advice is to peddle that cautiously, especially when we're not so bad. Especially when you have to haul in First Amendment protected activities to punch up your case.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#70)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 05:59:32 PM EST
    RA I threw the last temptation in because it had holes, for the fun of it. I could have limited the argument to only the murders of the doctors and won handily, but I really do like debate. Scorsese can afford protection and did have protection. Hate speech is protected, death threats are not. The question of who is bad or worse is not easily won or lost, but framing the arguments around cases that are less than perfect help stimulate the discussion. You cannot win the argument as you have zero defense for the abortion doc murders committed by christians and not condemned by christian leadership. I throw you a bone with Scorsese and the best you can come up with is that although under protection he is still alive. The failure of religious leaders to condemn the death threats and the murders of the doctors speak volumes. I don't know who is worse, what I see are similarities between fanatics in both religions and in all cases it makes me sick. Silence from christians over the executions of doctors and death threats is not different in my eyes than the silence from the muslim clerics. I am 100% certain reporters could go around the country and find clergy within the christian community that praise the murders, just like they do with muslim extremists. Perhaps fanatic muslims have more balls than the christians that send death threats and beat their wives instead. You have made it clear that you think muslims are a greater threat to americans and are taught at a young age to kill through their religion. Tens of millions of peace loving, god fearing muslims would beg to differ with your shallow beliefs.....

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#71)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 06:03:44 PM EST
    As an aside, I left in the protest marchers because it was part of the paragraph and did not want to be accused of cropping. I fully support their right to protest the movie, in fact the movie sucked so I probably would have protested on artistic quality. Although, it is also important to note that in this great country, the movie was BANNED in several southern states. Be careful when you are criticizing a theocracy RA, because on occasion you may find yourself driving through one on vacation.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#72)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 07:04:07 AM EST
    I do recall clergy speaking out on the abortion clinic shootings. However, there being so few shootings, they don't have much opportunity. I think we ought to face the possibility that the perps in this case will be some Muslims who say that they did it because the guy dissed The Faith, they're glad, and they'd to it again. Sort of like the guys who killed Fortuyn and van Gogh. If this actually happens, what then? One Brit editorial cartoonist, when asked why he didn't aim his scurrilous pen at Arab tyrants, instead reserving his efforts for Israel, replied that the Jews aren't in the habit of issuing fatwas. That's pretty straightforward, isn't it? I have no idea how this case is going to come out, but if it's as some think, you folks had better have your line lined up in advance, since it will be a tough one to make up on the fly.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#73)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 07:23:23 AM EST
    Which clergy RA? Google Robertson, Falwell, Graham and tell me what you find. Google some archbishops and tell me what you find. Tell me what you find about the death threats levied against those involved with LToC. Nothing is what you will find. I conceded long ago in this thread that it may be the work of a lunatic of muslim faith, my argument has been and still is that the media coverage regarding christian morons that kill or simply give death threats is incomparable. Based on the story I think it is acceptable to make an assumption that if someone threatened to kill them because of their religious beliefs, that it was entirely possible they followed through. Unfortunately, this family did not have the means of a SCorsese and the exec producers of the LToC to protect themselves from zealots. In response to your "it does not happen that often" comment How many christians have been murdered in the US for their beliefs? How many abortion doctors have been murdered by Christians? How many christians NEED bodyguards to protect them for their beliefs? How many abortion clinic employees NEED bodyguards? I don't hear or read from the mainstream media on a regular basis, "Radical Fanatic Christian" threaten abortion doc, blacks, movie producers etc. Doing so would create a backlash from the medias viewers as they would instantly claim "that group is not like us and you cannot call them christian". Islamic leaders denounce the violence often, our press does not show that in fair balance. What they show are fringe fanatics who are no different than what you can find in many places of the US within those 602 known and identified hate groups (as designated by our gov't). If the media covered them and sought their opinions on Israel, blacks, abortionists, homosexuals etc, the perception would be that the US is filled with hate mongers and backwards ass fanatics. We create a perception of good vs evil in our media and there is a great imbalance in that coverage.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#74)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 07:29:34 AM EST
    Also, a "fatwa" is a religious decree, not an order to kill, in fact many of the religious leaders in Iraq are issuing fatwas that people "must vote". Go to one of those hate group meetings and see what those whack jobs are saying the name of the lord, you will find little difference.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#75)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 08:19:09 AM EST
    JL, the Brit cartoonist was not referring to an order to vote, was he? You think? Rushdie didn't go into hiding because somebody issued a fatwa that he should change his socks, did he?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 08:48:07 AM EST
    But the broad generalization of what a fatwa used in the cartoon is a mischaracterization and yet still a funny cartoon. Iran is still issuing an order of death for Rushdie as are many Saudi clerics, and it is an argument that I would readily cede RA. Jimmy Swaggart says that he would kill a "fag" if he hit on him and while that does not constitute a religious decree so to speak, it does create an acceptance for the disposal of ungodly sorts. I am not arguing that I find many islamic clerics irresponsible in their teachings, the crux of my argument has been fair and accurate coverage. You can find whack jobs and fanatics on both sides and it does seem that there is a preponderance of muslim cleric speaking out on when it is ok to kill. But I would argue that those fanatics are readily cued up and played and replayed constantly by our news media while the christian harebrains are not. To use your logic RA, Rushdie is still alive isn't he? Funny you would bring him into the argument after your staunch defense of "he is still alive" relative to scorsese. Christian leaders have chosen not to speak out against the death threats and abortion doc killings, an argument can be made that agreeing with the death threats is far worse (and I would side on that argument) but silence can also be interpreted as tacit approval.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#77)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 09:28:33 AM EST
    There are, unfortunately, too many death threats to pay attention to all of them. Fatwas issued by big shooters who claim to speak for and are listened to by millions are different from threats issued by Mr. Anonymous. The result is likely to be different. Falwell and Robertson say stupid things and from time to time Falwell finds himself apologizing. But nobody I ever met thinks of these guys as leaders. It's like trying to find an African-American who thinks Jesse Jackson speaks for him. If Falwell and Robertson did not exist, you guys would have to invent them. If Jackson did not exist, the KKK would have to invent him--and Sharpton. What any of those four worthies say or don't say has little to do with the real world.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#78)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 10:51:20 AM EST
    So who speaks then for the christian majority, the pope? Post for me a list of the fatwas ordering death to innocents by respected isalmic leaders please. And I agree with your point about Jesse.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 20, 2005 at 11:46:52 PM EST
    This thread is fascinating. There is zippola evidence that the crime in question had anything to do with the victms' (or anyone else's) religious beliefs. But evidence of anti-Muslim bigotry? You don't have to go to Jersey City for that--this thread is chock-full of it. And all from the conservatives. Imagine my surprise.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 06:18:17 PM EST
    RA, I have, in fact, been told that in criticizing Jerry Falwell I'm setting myself against God, so clearly some people think he's a leader. Dr. James Dobson, who also says plenty of daft (IMO) stuff, has even more devotees. As to the Crusade, I brought that up because of James' comment that Christian ministers "hadn't called for a new Crusade" after one PA incident in Israel. My point was that the Crusade as a virtuous image is still alive and well with some people. Since I know very few people who think the Muslim occupation of Europe was a good thing, I saw no reason to state that, no, it wasn't (though I don't think it was any worse than Christian and secular monarchs did over the years--which, believe me, is not a compliment). Siege of Vienna? Glad the invaders were driven off. But in the Western European occupation of much of the Mideast, I wish they'd driven us off too. Your reference to Van Gogh "not being dead" certainly has nothing to do with anything I posted that I can tell.

    Anti-Muslim Sentiment in New Jersey | 79 comments (79 topical)